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EA Dev, TPS needs to be better or else this game will never reach potential

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  • VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    B-Bunny wrote: »
    Just a bit of advice, I hope you guys aren't always leaving your consoles in rest mode with the game running - that will cause stuttering and eventually bog things down throughout.

    Is there a source for that info? That just seems very odd if that's the case. I'd have a hard time believing that Sony would build so much functionality into rest mode vs completely off (controller charging, update downloading, etc.) that it would be a huge mistake to not make sure that it could be used that way almost indefinitely.

    I can assure you the Xbox One's "power saving mode" vs. "instant on" brings about performance differences if you 1) don't close games down properly and 2) clear cache / fully power cycle occasionally when using "instant on".

    The console operates off Windows UWP... correct?

    I'd assume so for XB1. MS would love nothing more than to only support a single OS.

    The Xbox One OS does run on a Windows Kernel similar to Windows 8.1 or 10. Making their platforms run under a unified system makes it easier to provide, not only better support, but also make things available across all platforms. Take their "Xbox Games Anywhere" initiative that sees you buying an Xbox game on PC or Xbox One and being able to purchase/play that same game on the other platform seamlessly, keeping the same progress across both, even being able to engage online regardless of which platform you are on, without a hitch.

    But that's neither here nor there. Regardless of the software that's governing your console, at the hardware level, putting your system in a "standby" state means that things will be either shut down or running in very low power mode: the hard drive will spin down and stop. CPU and GPU functions will be essentially "shut down". And basically only the RAM will retain power to keep whatever was cached "live" when the machine comes back to life. At which point, it would take a bit of time for things to "sync" up giving the effect of "stuttering".

    10 UWP.

    I play anywhere in my home through my Surface 4.

    Pretty boss.
  • VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    B-Bunny wrote: »
    Just a bit of advice, I hope you guys aren't always leaving your consoles in rest mode with the game running - that will cause stuttering and eventually bog things down throughout.

    Is there a source for that info? That just seems very odd if that's the case. I'd have a hard time believing that Sony would build so much functionality into rest mode vs completely off (controller charging, update downloading, etc.) that it would be a huge mistake to not make sure that it could be used that way almost indefinitely.

    I can assure you the Xbox One's "power saving mode" vs. "instant on" brings about performance differences if you 1) don't close games down properly and 2) clear cache / fully power cycle occasionally when using "instant on".

    The console operates off Windows UWP... correct?

    I'd assume so for XB1. MS would love nothing more than to only support a single OS.

    The Xbox One OS does run on a Windows Kernel similar to Windows 8.1 or 10. Making their platforms run under a unified system makes it easier to provide, not only better support, but also make things available across all platforms. Take their "Xbox Games Anywhere" initiative that sees you buying an Xbox game on PC or Xbox One and being able to purchase/play that same game on the other platform seamlessly, keeping the same progress across both, even being able to engage online regardless of which platform you are on, without a hitch.

    But that's neither here nor there. Regardless of the software that's governing your console, at the hardware level, putting your system in a "standby" state means that things will be either shut down or running in very low power mode: the hard drive will spin down and stop. CPU and GPU functions will be essentially "shut down". And basically only the RAM will retain power to keep whatever was cached "live" when the machine comes back to life. At which point, it would take a bit of time for things to "sync" up giving the effect of "stuttering".

    10 UWP.

    I play anywhere in my home through my Surface 4.

    Pretty boss.

    Yeah, I know. It's what allows me to run FH3 and GoW4 on the Game Demo system here at work. ;)
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    Bmh245 wrote: »

    I don't really understand why returning to a neutral facing makes him turn to the right, since before the reach-skate-back pickup started my defenseman was facing up ice, and the pickup is directly behind him. But in any case, appreciate the answer.

    What I do find confusing, though, is that you say this problem is the result of pickups running through the old system. But I don't remember problems like this ever happening in the last-gen game, even post-TPS. Did they happen in the last-gen game and we just didn't notice it because incidental contact was so much lower (so I wouldn't have necessarily lost the puck when I turned into the opposing player)? Or are spins like this the result of something about the way TPS works on the new consoles?

    It was always an issue with the old system. That issue and being forced to glide through the pickup at a constant speed are two things in that system that aren't as nice as some of the things in the seamless pickup tech where you can accelerate, strafe, turn or stop and move the other way as you are picking up a puck. We need more coverage on the turning pickups so that they can play in those cases and your player would turn based on your left stick angle if you wanted to keep skating in the direction he turned to pickup the puck.

    Not noticing it as much could be a few things. It could be that there wasn't stick on stick incidental contact by default as you suggested and there were also a lot of one frame pickups. We updated those as we moved to the new consoles to balance things out. Reaching behind yourself and acquiring a puck to face back forward in 1-2 frames was overpowered in some cases and obviously looked very unrealistic. As we progress forward, we fix things and learn things. As mentioned, as much as seamless pickups gets a bad rep because of the name, that tech is where we need to do more. When used correctly, such as the way the two handed turns are tuned this year, you can really move through the puck well. This is how they should all feel and blend into the pickup and back into skating.

    Hah, thanks god and to you this little cheat is gone now. That little cheap move could make me crazy.

    Just to read about it now makes me feel unwell :) I know I'm probably in minority again, but I don't have many problems with the new pickup system.
    Actually I don't remember having any problem at all. I like those animations a lot.
  • VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    B-Bunny wrote: »
    Just a bit of advice, I hope you guys aren't always leaving your consoles in rest mode with the game running - that will cause stuttering and eventually bog things down throughout.

    Is there a source for that info? That just seems very odd if that's the case. I'd have a hard time believing that Sony would build so much functionality into rest mode vs completely off (controller charging, update downloading, etc.) that it would be a huge mistake to not make sure that it could be used that way almost indefinitely.

    I can assure you the Xbox One's "power saving mode" vs. "instant on" brings about performance differences if you 1) don't close games down properly and 2) clear cache / fully power cycle occasionally when using "instant on".

    The console operates off Windows UWP... correct?

    I'd assume so for XB1. MS would love nothing more than to only support a single OS.

    The Xbox One OS does run on a Windows Kernel similar to Windows 8.1 or 10. Making their platforms run under a unified system makes it easier to provide, not only better support, but also make things available across all platforms. Take their "Xbox Games Anywhere" initiative that sees you buying an Xbox game on PC or Xbox One and being able to purchase/play that same game on the other platform seamlessly, keeping the same progress across both, even being able to engage online regardless of which platform you are on, without a hitch.

    But that's neither here nor there. Regardless of the software that's governing your console, at the hardware level, putting your system in a "standby" state means that things will be either shut down or running in very low power mode: the hard drive will spin down and stop. CPU and GPU functions will be essentially "shut down". And basically only the RAM will retain power to keep whatever was cached "live" when the machine comes back to life. At which point, it would take a bit of time for things to "sync" up giving the effect of "stuttering".

    10 UWP.

    I play anywhere in my home through my Surface 4.

    Pretty boss.

    Yeah, I know. It's what allows me to run FH3 and GoW4 on the Game Demo system here at work. ;)

    My kind of dude lmao

    Hey I think I watched you on Twitch the other day. Some goth chic had more viewers. You may want to get a camera and try the Emo look.
  • I close hockey and power off my PS4 after each time I'm done playing. I don't know why anyone wouldn't.

    I would but I like being able to start my Xbox anywhere and the house and playing over my Surface.

    But - you are correct in yer line of thinking.
  • VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    B-Bunny wrote: »
    Just a bit of advice, I hope you guys aren't always leaving your consoles in rest mode with the game running - that will cause stuttering and eventually bog things down throughout.

    Is there a source for that info? That just seems very odd if that's the case. I'd have a hard time believing that Sony would build so much functionality into rest mode vs completely off (controller charging, update downloading, etc.) that it would be a huge mistake to not make sure that it could be used that way almost indefinitely.

    I can assure you the Xbox One's "power saving mode" vs. "instant on" brings about performance differences if you 1) don't close games down properly and 2) clear cache / fully power cycle occasionally when using "instant on".

    The console operates off Windows UWP... correct?

    I'd assume so for XB1. MS would love nothing more than to only support a single OS.

    The Xbox One OS does run on a Windows Kernel similar to Windows 8.1 or 10. Making their platforms run under a unified system makes it easier to provide, not only better support, but also make things available across all platforms. Take their "Xbox Games Anywhere" initiative that sees you buying an Xbox game on PC or Xbox One and being able to purchase/play that same game on the other platform seamlessly, keeping the same progress across both, even being able to engage online regardless of which platform you are on, without a hitch.

    But that's neither here nor there. Regardless of the software that's governing your console, at the hardware level, putting your system in a "standby" state means that things will be either shut down or running in very low power mode: the hard drive will spin down and stop. CPU and GPU functions will be essentially "shut down". And basically only the RAM will retain power to keep whatever was cached "live" when the machine comes back to life. At which point, it would take a bit of time for things to "sync" up giving the effect of "stuttering".

    10 UWP.

    I play anywhere in my home through my Surface 4.

    Pretty boss.

    Yeah, I know. It's what allows me to run FH3 and GoW4 on the Game Demo system here at work. ;)

    My kind of dude lmao

    Hey I think I watched you on Twitch the other day. Some goth chic had more viewers. You may want to get a camera and try the Emo look.

    One day... When I can finally get my man cave and be able to lock the door. Not that I mind when the Wife comes and asks me questions while I'm streaming. Or when the twins barge in chasing the cat or jumping on my bed. Or when one of the older ones come in to chit-chat...
  • Have you guys played hut? The skating in that game mode is so much better, less clunky. Eashl and club is a disaster. The skating feels as responsive and agile as an 18 wheeler doing a u-turn. All the players have the same skating rating lol so dmen can catch you really easily even when you have seperation lol the rebounds just sit in the crease and are impossible to tapin. Playing defence feels like you're fighting the skating more then the other team. Your one timer is trash. No wonder nobody plays d in dropins.

    Takes 20 minutes to find 6s in dropin. What a turd.
  • SaveUs2K wrote: »
    KoryDub wrote: »
    sgiz1 wrote: »
    "maybe an issue with taking control of an A.I. player mid-animation that triggers the strange sequence?"

    That strange animation is called TPS, its the root of all evils in terms of wonky pivots, turns, loss of player control, etc.

    I get why people hate TPS, but I think those same people need to take the time to learn the intricacies of this skating engine.

    Most of the clips posted here show full left stick movement at all times. Not to mention there's likely some abuse of the hustle button - which only further increases difficulty of making agile moves and avoiding blend and pivot animations.

    People want to point the left stick to direct their player without any weight or momentum. They want their players to turn on a dime, always face the right way and always be able to stay in position without being held accountable for their speed and momentum. That's what happens when you get rid of TPS.

    Not saying that's wrong, but TPS holds players accountable. I think holding players accountable for their skating ability is a great way to separate the good players from the great players - but it's clear a majority of the good players struggle with the idea of being responsible for that.

    Like I said, go watch a full game replay of some of the LGHL games. Watch those players and how much they utilize the glide and small subtle movements to maintain full control of their players.

    I get this argument, but at the same time, ask the LG players if they like this game. I bet 90%+ of NHL/High AHL caliber LG'ers hate this game. We all get the engine, know how to use it, and are pretty good at it, but that doesn't make it fun. I think we've gotten to the point where people don't want skating ability to be something that creates a skill gap. We want better vision and thumb skills to create the gap, not superior knowledge of a broken engine.

    This isn't a personal attack on you, because again, I really do get that argument. I just think this community isn't wanting that to be a thing, and at the end of the day this is a video game. Skating shouldn't be a bigger factor than thumb speed and vision in a video game.


    Plus, add in the fact that half of the goals scored in 6s are greasy, garbage goals or miracle tips, this game just keep removing the skill gap more and more. I have genuinely not had as little fun with this series as the last two years. These three releases is what you'd call "stumbling out of the gate".

    Great comment. Thanks for writing it. 100 percent agree.
  • RedBull1973JL
    741 posts Member
    edited January 2017
    SaveUs2K wrote: »
    KoryDub wrote: »
    sgiz1 wrote: »
    "maybe an issue with taking control of an A.I. player mid-animation that triggers the strange sequence?"

    That strange animation is called TPS, its the root of all evils in terms of wonky pivots, turns, loss of player control, etc.

    I get why people hate TPS, but I think those same people need to take the time to learn the intricacies of this skating engine.

    Most of the clips posted here show full left stick movement at all times. Not to mention there's likely some abuse of the hustle button - which only further increases difficulty of making agile moves and avoiding blend and pivot animations.

    People want to point the left stick to direct their player without any weight or momentum. They want their players to turn on a dime, always face the right way and always be able to stay in position without being held accountable for their speed and momentum. That's what happens when you get rid of TPS.

    Not saying that's wrong, but TPS holds players accountable. I think holding players accountable for their skating ability is a great way to separate the good players from the great players - but it's clear a majority of the good players struggle with the idea of being responsible for that.

    Like I said, go watch a full game replay of some of the LGHL games. Watch those players and how much they utilize the glide and small subtle movements to maintain full control of their players.

    I get this argument, but at the same time, ask the LG players if they like this game. I bet 90%+ of NHL/High AHL caliber LG'ers hate this game. We all get the engine, know how to use it, and are pretty good at it, but that doesn't make it fun. I think we've gotten to the point where people don't want skating ability to be something that creates a skill gap. We want better vision and thumb skills to create the gap, not superior knowledge of a broken engine.

    This isn't a personal attack on you, because again, I really do get that argument. I just think this community isn't wanting that to be a thing, and at the end of the day this is a video game. Skating shouldn't be a bigger factor than thumb speed and vision in a video game.


    Plus, add in the fact that half of the goals scored in 6s are greasy, garbage goals or miracle tips, this game just keep removing the skill gap more and more. I have genuinely not had as little fun with this series as the last two years. These three releases is what you'd call "stumbling out of the gate".

    Great comment. Thanks for writing it. 100 percent agree.

    Agreed as well!!! The skating should be the last thing we as VIDEO GAME players should have to worry about. This is a hockey game and I'm sure hockey players don't have their skating front-and-center during a game as it's become second nature to even be able to play hockey. That part of it should just happen in the background, but still remain somewhat realistic. The game should favor those with the best understanding of hockey combined with the better twitch/thumb skills.

    Player vs player...skill vs skill!! That's what we want EA!!!

    Oh, and make it work better online so there isn't such a difference between abilities based on internet quality. Other games make it work most of the time...not this one.
  • But in real hockey, even though it comes second nature, there is still a skill gap in skating. Drew doughty outskates Dustin brown. Conner mcdavid outskates zack kassian. Etc etc.

    So that should also be in this game. If I put more time into learning the skating engine, I should have an advantage over others that don't. Plain and simple.
  • eric57664 wrote: »
    But in real hockey, even though it comes second nature, there is still a skill gap in skating. Drew doughty outskates Dustin brown. Conner mcdavid outskates zack kassian. Etc etc.

    So that should also be in this game. If I put more time into learning the skating engine, I should have an advantage over others that don't. Plain and simple.

    That's where the skating ratings come into play. Your speed, agility, acceleration, balance, etc are all ratings that are different among players and should affect what your skater can and can't do on the ice. For example, a skater with 50 agility and/or acceleration should feel "stuck in mud" compared to a skater with a 90. One with a 50 in balance will fall down a lot more than a 90 while attempting to juke-n-jive their way up the ice. The skating part of the game, being second nature, should be dictated by the ratings alone.

    Just ask many people how the game plays for them with even the smallest amount of lag/delay online with the current skating engine compared to before it on old gen. It doesn't matter how good you are or think you are. It's not the same "engine" when you try to use if efficiently online. They need to change things over at EA and do it soon. It's amazing how many people have already washed their hands of this garbage already.
  • eric57664 wrote: »
    But in real hockey, even though it comes second nature, there is still a skill gap in skating. Drew doughty outskates Dustin brown. Conner mcdavid outskates zack kassian. Etc etc.

    So that should also be in this game. If I put more time into learning the skating engine, I should have an advantage over others that don't. Plain and simple.

    That's where the skating ratings come into play. Your speed, agility, acceleration, balance, etc are all ratings that are different among players and should affect what your skater can and can't do on the ice. For example, a skater with 50 agility and/or acceleration should feel "stuck in mud" compared to a skater with a 90. One with a 50 in balance will fall down a lot more than a 90 while attempting to juke-n-jive their way up the ice. The skating part of the game, being second nature, should be dictated by the ratings alone.

    Just ask many people how the game plays for them with even the smallest amount of lag/delay online with the current skating engine compared to before it on old gen. It doesn't matter how good you are or think you are. It's not the same "engine" when you try to use if efficiently online. They need to change things over at EA and do it soon. It's amazing how many people have already washed their hands of this garbage already.

    And this is where you guys contradict yourselves. You want a game about your thumbs and less about the game deciding things. Attributes decide things. The skating engine gives you full control (if you know how) to put "user skill" into your own hands.

    Funny, huh? Lol.
  • eric57664 wrote: »
    Attributes decide things. The skating engine gives you full control (if you know how) to put "user skill" into your own hands.

    Why keep saying this nonsense? There have been multiple examples in this thread of the game taking control away from the user, examples that Ben himself has said reflect problems in the way the skating engine works. So it's clear that the engine does not give you "full control," even if you know how to use it.

    And the attributes argument is a complete red herring. Yes, Duncan Keith skates better than Dustin Brown. But Dustin Brown doesn't spin to his right when he wants to go left. When trying to turn and head up ice, he doesn't first rock back in the opposite direction before finally going where he'd like to go. But those are problems that skaters deal with in this game all the time. That has nothing to do with attributes. It has to do with the way the engine works.

  • eric57664 wrote: »
    eric57664 wrote: »
    But in real hockey, even though it comes second nature, there is still a skill gap in skating. Drew doughty outskates Dustin brown. Conner mcdavid outskates zack kassian. Etc etc.

    So that should also be in this game. If I put more time into learning the skating engine, I should have an advantage over others that don't. Plain and simple.

    That's where the skating ratings come into play. Your speed, agility, acceleration, balance, etc are all ratings that are different among players and should affect what your skater can and can't do on the ice. For example, a skater with 50 agility and/or acceleration should feel "stuck in mud" compared to a skater with a 90. One with a 50 in balance will fall down a lot more than a 90 while attempting to juke-n-jive their way up the ice. The skating part of the game, being second nature, should be dictated by the ratings alone.

    Just ask many people how the game plays for them with even the smallest amount of lag/delay online with the current skating engine compared to before it on old gen. It doesn't matter how good you are or think you are. It's not the same "engine" when you try to use if efficiently online. They need to change things over at EA and do it soon. It's amazing how many people have already washed their hands of this garbage already.

    And this is where you guys contradict yourselves. You want a game about your thumbs and less about the game deciding things. Attributes decide things. The skating engine gives you full control (if you know how) to put "user skill" into your own hands.

    Funny, huh? Lol.

    LAG/DELAY makes every game feel different. Some games you have the "lag edge" so things work for you just fine. Other games your opponent has it, and doing basic things like turning, changing directions, facing the puck carrier, etc become VERY MUCH harder than they should be. It's just not a fair scenario most of the time. It feels like each player is playing with a different skating engine. One player doesn't have to think about it because it probably works close to intended while the other player can't focus on playing hockey because the skating engine is such a hindrance and doesn't let him/her do the simplest of actions like passing, shooting, or even possessing the puck.

    That's why there are so many complaints about that star player with 95 skating who got out-hustled by the average 4th liner with 75 skating all game long. I'm willing to bet the guy with the 75 skating 4th liner didn't have any lag/delay and had the "lag advantage." That seems to be the way it works though. Whoever doesn't have the advantage has all of their ratings nerfed (not by the game, but through the internet). That's how TOO MANY games are won and lost. For the attribute system to work properly EA needs to figure out why playing online is such an inconsistent mess all the time.
  • Bmh245 wrote: »
    eric57664 wrote: »
    Attributes decide things. The skating engine gives you full control (if you know how) to put "user skill" into your own hands.

    Why keep saying this nonsense? There have been multiple examples in this thread of the game taking control away from the user, examples that Ben himself has said reflect problems in the way the skating engine works. So it's clear that the engine does not give you "full control," even if you know how to use it.

    And the attributes argument is a complete red herring. Yes, Duncan Keith skates better than Dustin Brown. But Dustin Brown doesn't spin to his right when he wants to go left. When trying to turn and head up ice, he doesn't first rock back in the opposite direction before finally going where he'd like to go. But those are problems that skaters deal with in this game all the time. That has nothing to do with attributes. It has to do with the way the engine works.

    LOL, looks like Joey got shot down, again.
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