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EA Dev, TPS needs to be better or else this game will never reach potential

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  • Bmh245 wrote: »
    eric57664 wrote: »
    Attributes decide things. The skating engine gives you full control (if you know how) to put "user skill" into your own hands.

    Why keep saying this nonsense? There have been multiple examples in this thread of the game taking control away from the user, examples that Ben himself has said reflect problems in the way the skating engine works. So it's clear that the engine does not give you "full control," even if you know how to use it.

    And the attributes argument is a complete red herring. Yes, Duncan Keith skates better than Dustin Brown. But Dustin Brown doesn't spin to his right when he wants to go left. When trying to turn and head up ice, he doesn't first rock back in the opposite direction before finally going where he'd like to go. But those are problems that skaters deal with in this game all the time. That has nothing to do with attributes. It has to do with the way the engine works.

    Even as someone who likes the current skating engine, I have to agree with this. I think some thought should be put into skating in game where that's your main mode of transit. But it shouldn't be that complicated to the point where you have to go through 50 contortions to get a simple "turn around" or "face the puck" function.

    I can understand creating something as complicated as a realistic skating engine can be difficult. But there has to be more effort on the devs part to make it seem seamless to the user. Provide more info and tools to be able to learn about it.

    You can't expect to make something that complicated and just drop it into the lap of the user and say "Here you go!", then get philosophical when the user comes back frustrated because he doesn't know how to make it work.
  • sgiz1
    537 posts Member
    edited January 2017
    "then get philosophical when the user comes back frustrated because he doesn't know how to make it work. "

    That's the problem, nobody and I mean nobody has or can master the TPS skating engine. Those who say otherwise are so full of sh33t. There are way too many start, stop, react, moments in this game to be able to skate exactly how the engine wants you to. This skating engine even if you understand it forces you into countless turnovers and loss of control moments in each game played.

    Skating should be responsive and fluid, say it again FLUID!!!
  • eight year olds can skate and handle a puck better...
  • Bmh245 wrote: »
    eric57664 wrote: »
    Attributes decide things. The skating engine gives you full control (if you know how) to put "user skill" into your own hands.

    Why keep saying this nonsense? There have been multiple examples in this thread of the game taking control away from the user, examples that Ben himself has said reflect problems in the way the skating engine works. So it's clear that the engine does not give you "full control," even if you know how to use it.

    And the attributes argument is a complete red herring. Yes, Duncan Keith skates better than Dustin Brown. But Dustin Brown doesn't spin to his right when he wants to go left. When trying to turn and head up ice, he doesn't first rock back in the opposite direction before finally going where he'd like to go. But those are problems that skaters deal with in this game all the time. That has nothing to do with attributes. It has to do with the way the engine works.

    Those are called bugs. That's not tps itself. So you can't count bugs as that is not how the engine is programmed but these unfortunate things do happen and that's what needs to be fixed and cleaned up.

    But when YOU are Dustin Brown, it's up to YOU to not spin left when you want to go right by knowing how to rotate your stick properly in conjunction to your body position and momentum.

    That's what I mean when ALL you guys want SKILL PUT INTO THE USERS HANDS. If YOU are turning left when you want to go right, well then that's YOUR fault for not knowing how or not being good enough to do it, and not video game Dustin Brown saying "I don't listen to what your input is."

    It's just total contradiction from most of you when you say you want skill in your hands, and so the engine does this by separating good skaters to bad.
  • sgiz1 wrote: »
    "then get philosophical when the user comes back frustrated because he doesn't know how to make it work. "

    That's the problem, nobody and I mean nobody has or can master the TPS skating engine. Those who say otherwise are so full of sh33t. There are way too many start, stop, react, moments in this game to be able to skate exactly how the engine wants you to. This skating engine even if you understand it forces you into countless turnovers and loss of control moments in each game played.

    Skating should be responsive and fluid, say it again FLUID!!!

    That's a pretty bold statement coming from you. I know for a fact a lot of people who HAVE indeed master it, but it doesn't mean much when the engine can't give you what you want consistently. And that's the problem, not the engine at its core, but that it (actually the ENTIRE game) can't be consistent enough for you to do things effectively. From skating, to collisions, to physics, to animations, the game isn't CONSISTENT.

    That's what frustrates players.
  • eric57664
    240 posts Member
    edited January 2017
    eric57664 wrote: »
    sgiz1 wrote: »
    That's the problem, nobody and I mean nobody has or can master the TPS skating engine.
    sgiz1 wrote: »
    Riding left stick is natural and something we are all forced to do most of the time since this is a twitch/reactionary game. .

    *see both quotes*

    That's why you can't master it. You are your own worst enemy.
  • 2sweeeeeeet
    76 posts Member
    edited January 2017
    TPS may be difficult to control, but it's no where near the total mess many of you make it out to be. You want it to be easy. But it shouldn't be.

    There are ways to avoid many of the TPS issues. But you have to be alert and can't be jamming buttons and the sticks like it's so incredibly easy to do.

    I cringe at the thought of it becoming easy and we end up with another endless amount of EASHL dancers, puck hogs and online versus figure skaters going for loops and loops and...loops, and loops, and dangles, then more loops, dangles, then cross crease or glitch goal.

    If TPS is getting a solid improvement for 18, then it's even more important for other aspects of offense & defense controls getting much more work.

    Weird, because I played a lot of defense and two way forward in NHL 09-11 and I never let guys do that to me. Must be a skill level issue.

    Then again there actually used to be a skill gap, a huge one. Now it's just mash all the buttons together and pray.
  • eric57664 wrote: »
    Those are called bugs. That's not tps itself. So you can't count bugs as that is not how the engine is programmed but these unfortunate things do happen and that's what needs to be fixed and cleaned up.

    But when YOU are Dustin Brown, it's up to YOU to not spin left when you want to go right by knowing how to rotate your stick properly in conjunction to your body position and momentum.

    That's what I mean when ALL you guys want SKILL PUT INTO THE USERS HANDS. If YOU are turning left when you want to go right, well then that's YOUR fault for not knowing how or not being good enough to do it, and not video game Dustin Brown saying "I don't listen to what your input is."

    It is not my fault that Doug Wilson -- 97 agility, 99 balance, 98 puck control -- spins right here when I am plainly telling him to go left. That's the game's fault. That's the fault of developers who have not figured out how to translate stick motions into what happens on the ice.



    Or take this clip. There was a loose puck off a blocked shot. Offensive player picked it up around top of the circle (off-screen). My AI-controlled center, for some reason, was below the goal line (because AI players are always out of position in this year's game). I take control of him and just press up on the LS. But he doesn't just move up by skating up. Instead, he decides to do a 360, which leaves him with his side turned when he gets to the offensive player:



    Now, what should I have done to stop him from doing that? I didn't tell him to do it. I didn't roll my stick from bottom to top. I just pressed up on the LS. Why is the game choosing to make him spin when I didn't tell him to do so? And again, this isn't a bug. This is something that happens all over the ice, game after game.

  • xxH3llsp4wNxx
    253 posts Member
    edited January 2017
    Skating sucks plain and simple, you've provided more than enough evidence of it. There's nothing to master as the CPU constantly takes control over your player, it doesn't matter if you press up up down down left right left right if the game wants you to spin, you spin.

    It's just like every other part of the game. Like when I'm using LB kneeling on the ice and the CPU makes me stand up just as the puck is going to reach me. Or when I'm playing goalie sitting in butterfly and as the shot is coming 5 hole I stand up. The game is loaded with scripted junk that makes for an awful gameplay experience.
  • Skating **** plain and simple, you've provided more than enough evidence of it. There's nothing to master as the CPU constantly takes control over your player, it doesn't matter if you press up up down down left right left right if the game wants you to spin, you spin.

    It's just like every other part of the game. Like when I'm using LB kneeling on the ice and the CPU makes me stand up just as the puck is going to reach me. Or when I'm playing goalie sitting in butterfly and as the shot is coming 5 hole I stand up. The game is loaded with scripted junk that makes for an awful gameplay experience.

    Definitely see your point and can't say I disagree.
  • SiIkyJohnson
    316 posts Member
    edited January 2017
    yup @xxH3llsp4wNxx it's not just the skating it's literally everything now.

    • tilt-a-whirl skating mechanics and controller inputs being ignored (both skater and goalie)
    • sluggish right stick movements
    • right stick dekes
    • cluttered ice (too many refs for online play)
    • lack of lobbies and any chance at a social experience for new users
    • fatman lag even offline
    • 16 man collision physics aka bowling ball hockey
    • breaking someone's stick while lifting it (physically impossible)
    • still cant aim poke checks
    • goalie
    • not to mention all of the cool little features the game used to have that are now non existent such as falling when turning too fast (don't add these back now with this skating engine), shattering glass with checks/shots, checking someone into the bench, net coming off the moorings

    the list goes on and on. this is all stuff that should have been addressed already. i don't see any hope when it's been 3 years on current gen, plus the 3 years prior where the only change was the cover and minor fixes that could have been solved the previous year with a patch. we were told EA was working on the next gen game during this time. how has literally everything become worse than it was just a few years ago, especially when they had a decent foundation and so much time to work on it?
  • nhl 11 and that era was good games because you had reliable tools and knew what to expected when you used them. its like playing chess...your tower moves a certain way...you dont need to learn to master the controls of the tower because it may decide to go left instead of right ....it goes where you tell it. So both teams are on the same level when you speak of the controls of the chess game pieces...the skill comes in outplaying the opponent. NHL 11 was like that. You pressd left..you went left...you lied down? you stayed down till you decided to get up....things were clearly defined....skill came from actual vision of the play, creating plays and forcing mistakes...JUST LIKE IN CHESS.

    Thats not what is in the game today. Unless you play chess inside a tornado...then you can compare.
  • yup @xxH3llsp4wNxx it's not just the skating it's literally everything now.

    the list goes on and on. this is all stuff that should have been addressed already. i don't see any hope when it's been 3 years on current gen, plus the 3 years prior where the only change was the cover and minor fixes that could have been solved the previous year with a patch. we were told EA was working on the next gen game during this time. how has literally everything become worse than it was just a few years ago, especially when they had a decent foundation and so much time to work on it?

    The biggest part is TPS, they made a new skating engine that nobody asked for (granted they had good intentions), but never went anywhere with it. With current gen they attempted to port it into the Ignite engine which has been nothing short of a disaster, I wouldn't expect much change with the current dev team unfortunately.

    On a side note a funny story while I was at a Flyers game last night. My brother randomly brought up how nice it was to always have a game like NHL to play even when nothing else was out years ago. He doesn't follow gaming news or come on sites like this, so the only time he hears anything about the series anymore is when I tell him, since we stopped buying it this year. It's just crazy to see how much of a nosedive this series has taken in 5 years.
  • Bmh245 wrote: »
    eric57664 wrote: »
    Those are called bugs. That's not tps itself. So you can't count bugs as that is not how the engine is programmed but these unfortunate things do happen and that's what needs to be fixed and cleaned up.

    But when YOU are Dustin Brown, it's up to YOU to not spin left when you want to go right by knowing how to rotate your stick properly in conjunction to your body position and momentum.

    That's what I mean when ALL you guys want SKILL PUT INTO THE USERS HANDS. If YOU are turning left when you want to go right, well then that's YOUR fault for not knowing how or not being good enough to do it, and not video game Dustin Brown saying "I don't listen to what your input is."

    It is not my fault that Doug Wilson -- 97 agility, 99 balance, 98 puck control -- spins right here when I am plainly telling him to go left. That's the game's fault. That's the fault of developers who have not figured out how to translate stick motions into what happens on the ice.



    Or take this clip. There was a loose puck off a blocked shot. Offensive player picked it up around top of the circle (off-screen). My AI-controlled center, for some reason, was below the goal line (because AI players are always out of position in this year's game). I take control of him and just press up on the LS. But he doesn't just move up by skating up. Instead, he decides to do a 360, which leaves him with his side turned when he gets to the offensive player:



    Now, what should I have done to stop him from doing that? I didn't tell him to do it. I didn't roll my stick from bottom to top. I just pressed up on the LS. Why is the game choosing to make him spin when I didn't tell him to do so? And again, this isn't a bug. This is something that happens all over the ice, game after game.
    Bmh245 wrote: »
    eric57664 wrote: »
    Those are called bugs. That's not tps itself. So you can't count bugs as that is not how the engine is programmed but these unfortunate things do happen and that's what needs to be fixed and cleaned up.

    But when YOU are Dustin Brown, it's up to YOU to not spin left when you want to go right by knowing how to rotate your stick properly in conjunction to your body position and momentum.

    That's what I mean when ALL you guys want SKILL PUT INTO THE USERS HANDS. If YOU are turning left when you want to go right, well then that's YOUR fault for not knowing how or not being good enough to do it, and not video game Dustin Brown saying "I don't listen to what your input is."

    It is not my fault that Doug Wilson -- 97 agility, 99 balance, 98 puck control -- spins right here when I am plainly telling him to go left. That's the game's fault. That's the fault of developers who have not figured out how to translate stick motions into what happens on the ice.



    Or take this clip. There was a loose puck off a blocked shot. Offensive player picked it up around top of the circle (off-screen). My AI-controlled center, for some reason, was below the goal line (because AI players are always out of position in this year's game). I take control of him and just press up on the LS. But he doesn't just move up by skating up. Instead, he decides to do a 360, which leaves him with his side turned when he gets to the offensive player:



    Now, what should I have done to stop him from doing that? I didn't tell him to do it. I didn't roll my stick from bottom to top. I just pressed up on the LS. Why is the game choosing to make him spin when I didn't tell him to do so? And again, this isn't a bug. This is something that happens all over the ice, game after game.

    1st video is something that's needs cleaning up. Hardly ever happens. And eventually will be. So That doesn't break the engine.

    2nd video, totally your fault. Look how fast you come out of that spin. If you had better control of your player, he doesn't do that. Do you have any more of the video? I'd like to see what you are doing at least 5 seconds before you go into the corner. Because the speed you come out of it looks like you're cranking your left stick, misreading how to use skate backwards and making your player spin uncontrollably.

    Do you have more of the video from what you are doing before? That will tell more of the story of what you are doing because it's hard to read when you show a video right at the point of impact, so to speak.
  • Bmh245
    905 posts Member
    edited January 2017
    eric57664 wrote: »
    Bmh245 wrote: »
    It is not my fault that Doug Wilson -- 97 agility, 99 balance, 98 puck control -- spins right here when I am plainly telling him to go left. That's the game's fault. That's the fault of developers who have not figured out how to translate stick motions into what happens on the ice.


    1st video is something that's needs cleaning up. Hardly ever happens. And eventually will be. So That doesn't break the engine.

    Hardly ever happens -- give me a break. This happens all the time.
    eric57664 wrote: »
    2nd video, totally your fault. Look how fast you come out of that spin. If you had better control of your player, he doesn't do that. Do you have any more of the video? I'd like to see what you are doing at least 5 seconds before you go into the corner. Because the speed you come out of it looks like you're cranking your left stick, misreading how to use skate backwards and making your player spin uncontrollably.

    Do you have more of the video from what you are doing before? That will tell more of the story of what you are doing because it's hard to read when you show a video right at the point of impact, so to speak.

    Do you even watch the clips before you shoot your mouth off? Go to the 0:11 mark, and you'll see I wasn't controlling the player when he went into the corner -- the AI was. I took control of him after he went below the goal line. And I wasn't skating backward, so I didn't "misread how to use" that. And I didn't do anything to make him spin -- that's the whole point. All I did was point up on my LS, since I needed to go up ice to cut off the puck carrier. It's the skating engine that made me spin.




  • eric57664
    240 posts Member
    edited January 2017
    Bmh245 wrote: »
    eric57664 wrote: »
    Bmh245 wrote: »
    It is not my fault that Doug Wilson -- 97 agility, 99 balance, 98 puck control -- spins right here when I am plainly telling him to go left. That's the game's fault. That's the fault of developers who have not figured out how to translate stick motions into what happens on the ice.


    1st video is something that's needs cleaning up. Hardly ever happens. And eventually will be. So That doesn't break the engine.

    Hardly ever happens -- give me a break. This happens all the time.
    eric57664 wrote: »
    2nd video, totally your fault. Look how fast you come out of that spin. If you had better control of your player, he doesn't do that. Do you have any more of the video? I'd like to see what you are doing at least 5 seconds before you go into the corner. Because the speed you come out of it looks like you're cranking your left stick, misreading how to use skate backwards and making your player spin uncontrollably.

    Do you have more of the video from what you are doing before? That will tell more of the story of what you are doing because it's hard to read when you show a video right at the point of impact, so to speak.

    Do you even watch the clips before you shoot your mouth off? Go to the 0:11 mark, and you'll see I wasn't controlling the player when he went into the corner -- the AI was. I took control of him after he went below the goal line. And I wasn't skating backward, so I didn't "misread how to use" that. And I didn't do anything to make him spin -- that's the whole point. All I did was point up on my LS, since I needed to go up ice to cut off the puck carrier. It's the skating engine that made me spin.


    First video, yes, hardly happens. You make that happen. And you can prevent it from happening if you are bad at skating.

    Second video, It's actually quite hard to see that you weren't controlling the player since 1: am watching on my iPhone and 2: you were close to the glass and the marker is very hidden. But even based on that new info, looks like you took control of a player that was in a skating backwards animation (ai is virtually holding VC) and when you switch to him, you're not pressing it at all or before you switch to him to avoid that happening.

    And then you fly around which is your fault because you control should be to tap the stick where you want to go to avoid things like this. Not tps, that's ai to human switching. Had this happen to me even when playing Pre tps skating engine.

  • Lol someone defending this skating engine , game mechanics or logic ... There is nothing to defend its all trash and gameplay has been getting worse over the last couple years , good job Ben.
  • Dixonyu wrote: »
    Lol someone defending this skating engine , game mechanics or logic ... There is nothing to defend its all trash and gameplay has been getting worse over the last couple years , good job Ben.

    Yet your logic is to still play it? Nice contradiction. Is that the theme with you guys? And if you're not playing it, that's even worse. You're on a forum complaining about a game that you don't play.
  • eric57664 wrote: »
    Second video, It's actually quite hard to see that you weren't controlling the player since 1: am watching on my iPhone and 2: you were close to the glass and the marker is very hidden. But even based on that new info, looks like you took control of a player that was in a skating backwards animation (ai is virtually holding VC) and when you switch to him, you're not pressing it at all or before you switch to him to avoid that happening.

    And then you fly around which is your fault because you control should be to tap the stick where you want to go to avoid things like this. Not tps, that's ai to human switching. Had this happen to me even when playing Pre tps skating engine.

    What are you talking about? How am I supposed to "avoid" him skating backward? And how would me holding VC before I switch to him avoid him being in VC? (Not to mention that it make the player I was controlling before him skate backward, which I didn't want him to do.)

    I didn't tap the stick because the offensive player was flying toward the net, and I needed to get to him -- since my AI teammates were, of course, completely oblivious to what was happening. Regardless, there's no reason my pressing up on the LS, hard or soft, should make me spin around. No reason, other than that this skating engine regularly makes players do things that no NHL player ever does -- like spin right when he's trying to move up and to the left from a dead start, as in my first clip -- and that users aren't asking to do.
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