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EA Dev, TPS needs to be better or else this game will never reach potential

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  • eric57664
    240 posts Member
    edited January 2017
    can you use "precision skating" without the puck in 17

    You kind of can. Holding L2/LT and "flicking" the left stick from a standstill will make you take little strides/steps in that direction. I don't find it useful, maybe there's more to it.

    In a game it's useless.
    Workin_OT wrote: »
    can you use "precision skating" without the puck in 17

    You kind of can. Holding L2/LT and "flicking" the left stick from a standstill will make you take little strides/steps in that direction. I don't find it useful, maybe there's more to it.

    You have it right, there isn't more to it. 1 flick will give you a little side step, 2 flicks will give you a couple strides over.

    The idea behind it is good it's just not useful enough. This game is too fast for having to come to a complete stop and then start flicking the stick. It needs to be able to be used smoothly without having to tap and be able to transition into while on the move if you are under a speed threshold.

    I use it all the time especially when I'm on the weak side. Making sure I'm lined up for a proper rebound or interception.

    Edit: or if I want to line myself up for a one timer. Which I also use by holding my stick up manually.
  • Workin_OT wrote: »
    can you use "precision skating" without the puck in 17

    You kind of can. Holding L2/LT and "flicking" the left stick from a standstill will make you take little strides/steps in that direction. I don't find it useful, maybe there's more to it.

    You have it right, there isn't more to it. 1 flick will give you a little side step, 2 flicks will give you a couple strides over.

    The idea behind it is good it's just not useful enough. This game is too fast for having to come to a complete stop and then start flicking the stick. It needs to be able to be used smoothly without having to tap and be able to transition into while on the move if you are under a speed threshold.

    Agreed, the flicking is the weird part to me. You'd think just moving the LS patially in the direction you want to move would produce similar results.
  • eric57664 wrote: »
    eric57664 wrote: »
    It seems you don't understand English. Let me try one more time....

    USE PRECISION SKATING. Do you not understand that? That does exactly what you want to do. It moves you laterally.

    But when do you want to move laterally? When you're skating full speed? Or stopped?

    Waiting for answer.

    PS: Still waiting.


    Why are the only two choices "full speed" or "stopped"? One obvious place I'd like to be able to skate laterally while facing the play is when a forward skates out of the corner and tries to curl across the slot to get off a wrist shot. What I'd like to do is skate up with him and then, when he starts gliding across the slot, stay facing him while moving laterally. In that case, I'm neither skating at full speed nor am I stopped. But PRECISION SKATING can't help me, because it only works on defense if you're stationary. So how am I supposed to make that play?

    Also, given that you're stationary in 1v1 modes less than 5 per cent of the time on defense (since you're almost always either skating/gliding or switching to players who are in motion), saying USE PRECISION SKATING is pretty much useless advice for the vast majority of people who play this game, even if PS worked well, which it doesn't.
  • Bmh245 wrote: »
    eric57664 wrote: »
    eric57664 wrote: »
    It seems you don't understand English. Let me try one more time....

    USE PRECISION SKATING. Do you not understand that? That does exactly what you want to do. It moves you laterally.

    But when do you want to move laterally? When you're skating full speed? Or stopped?

    Waiting for answer.

    PS: Still waiting.


    Why are the only two choices "full speed" or "stopped"? One obvious place I'd like to be able to skate laterally while facing the play is when a forward skates out of the corner and tries to curl across the slot to get off a wrist shot. What I'd like to do is skate up with him and then, when he starts gliding across the slot, stay facing him while moving laterally. In that case, I'm neither skating at full speed nor am I stopped. But PRECISION SKATING can't help me, because it only works on defense if you're stationary. So how am I supposed to make that play?

    Also, given that you're stationary in 1v1 modes less than 5 per cent of the time on defense (since you're almost always either skating/gliding or switching to players who are in motion), saying USE PRECISION SKATING is pretty much useless advice for the vast majority of people who play this game, even if PS worked well, which it doesn't.

    Because in real life, nobody would skate like that. They would face the direction the puck carrier is going and contain them but also be turning their torso. We don't have that. Go show me a game in the NHL that someone does what you're talking about. The defender doesn't. He does what I just said.
  • eric57664 wrote: »
    eric57664 wrote: »
    Go into "free skate" mode.
    Leave the puck behind your net (bottom of the screen)
    Go stand in the slot area in front of that net.

    Now face up the ice and at the same time move quickly a few feet to the right and then back a few feet to the left. Do this while not having your player pivot and/or turn in any direction besides facing up the ice.

    It's not possible!

    In real life anyone that can skate can easily move side to side while always facing one direction. Yet in this hockey game, nobody can.

    That is a huge problem with TPS and a clear example why it is broken.

    That's what precision skating does. Go play blades of steel. You have no idea how to play this game.

    Show a video of you doing so then. If you can't then that just proves it.

    I can and do it all the time. Doesn't matter what ANYONE shows you. You're still going to deny it. You're still going to not listen. You're still going to suck. And you're still going to complain.

    So what's the point?

    Seriously, go play blades of steel. Your skill level is just about there.

    All **** and pi$$ing contests aside, post a video of you doing this and explain how you do it with the controls. Doesn't seem like too much to ask. Or, maybe Ben could do it. The point is to see someone do it, then educate if that is the case.
  • eric57664 wrote: »
    eric57664 wrote: »
    Go into "free skate" mode.
    Leave the puck behind your net (bottom of the screen)
    Go stand in the slot area in front of that net.

    Now face up the ice and at the same time move quickly a few feet to the right and then back a few feet to the left. Do this while not having your player pivot and/or turn in any direction besides facing up the ice.

    It's not possible!

    In real life anyone that can skate can easily move side to side while always facing one direction. Yet in this hockey game, nobody can.

    That is a huge problem with TPS and a clear example why it is broken.

    That's what precision skating does. Go play blades of steel. You have no idea how to play this game.

    Show a video of you doing so then. If you can't then that just proves it.

    I can and do it all the time. Doesn't matter what ANYONE shows you. You're still going to deny it. You're still going to not listen. You're still going to suck. And you're still going to complain.

    So what's the point?

    Seriously, go play blades of steel. Your skill level is just about there.

    All **** and pi$$ing contests aside, post a video of you doing this and explain how you do it with the controls. Doesn't seem like too much to ask. Or, maybe Ben could do it. The point is to see someone do it, then educate if that is the case.

    He won't post a video because he can't do those things and we will see how much of a scrub he is he can't take the embarrassment.

    At this point, I couldn't care less anymore. The point is to bury the issue. If Joey can do it and explain it (or Ben) then we won't have 324 back and forth discussions of who is a scrub or who can't do what. It is tiring and quite frankly, explored more than the cutest prisoner in the F ward.

    Seriously, let's just move on. Joey or Ben doesn't post anything then I guess we conclude it can't be done. If they do post anything, we move on. Quite simple really.
  • eric57664 wrote: »
    eric57664 wrote: »
    Go into "free skate" mode.
    Leave the puck behind your net (bottom of the screen)
    Go stand in the slot area in front of that net.

    Now face up the ice and at the same time move quickly a few feet to the right and then back a few feet to the left. Do this while not having your player pivot and/or turn in any direction besides facing up the ice.

    It's not possible!

    In real life anyone that can skate can easily move side to side while always facing one direction. Yet in this hockey game, nobody can.

    That is a huge problem with TPS and a clear example why it is broken.

    That's what precision skating does. Go play blades of steel. You have no idea how to play this game.

    Show a video of you doing so then. If you can't then that just proves it.

    I can and do it all the time. Doesn't matter what ANYONE shows you. You're still going to deny it. You're still going to not listen. You're still going to suck. And you're still going to complain.

    So what's the point?

    Seriously, go play blades of steel. Your skill level is just about there.

    All **** and pi$$ing contests aside, post a video of you doing this and explain how you do it with the controls. Doesn't seem like too much to ask. Or, maybe Ben could do it. The point is to see someone do it, then educate if that is the case.

    He won't post a video because he can't do those things and we will see how much of a scrub he is he can't take the embarrassment.

    Ok guys. I want to tell you something. Me and brazenhead are playing with you all. Well, not us, just me. He is me and me is him. But don't worry, since I've told you this, now I'll go back to doing it still. Watch. This is gonna be funny. Lol.
  • Bmh245
    905 posts Member
    edited January 2017
    eric57664 wrote: »
    Bmh245 wrote: »
    Why are the only two choices "full speed" or "stopped"? One obvious place I'd like to be able to skate laterally while facing the play is when a forward skates out of the corner and tries to curl across the slot to get off a wrist shot. What I'd like to do is skate up with him and then, when he starts gliding across the slot, stay facing him while moving laterally. In that case, I'm neither skating at full speed nor am I stopped. But PRECISION SKATING can't help me, because it only works on defense if you're stationary. So how am I supposed to make that play?

    Because in real life, nobody would skate like that. They would face the direction the puck carrier is going and contain them but also be turning their torso. We don't have that. Go show me a game in the NHL that someone does what you're talking about. The defender doesn't. He does what I just said.

    At the end of the Nyquist video, 0:28-0:33, what does the defender do? After following Nyquist up out of the corner, he skates laterally, from the top of the circle to roughly the middle of the slot, facing Nyquist the entire time while Nyquist glides left to right. How do I do that in this game?


  • Bmh245
    905 posts Member
    edited January 2017
    iBaader wrote: »
    Sorry but a big no here. You're totally wrong. His skates are NOT moving laterally. His torso is facing the puck carrier but his skates NEVER move laterally.

    And how many times do you need to show the exact same video where even Ben told you the same thing?

    You've always been very poor with attention to details.

    I don't care what his skates are doing. I care what he's doing. He's moving laterally while facing the puck carrier. That's what people want to be able to do, and what they can't do with TPS. But if I'm wrong, then just show me a video of someone in this game doing what that guy is doing. It's a basic part of playing defense in hockey, and the current skating engine does not allow us to do it. We need to be able to move laterally without spinning or pivoting away from the puck carrier, and we can't. That's the fundamental problem that people are talking about.
  • Bmh245 wrote: »
    iBaader wrote: »
    Sorry but a big no here. You're totally wrong. His skates are NOT moving laterally. His torso is facing the puck carrier but his skates NEVER move laterally.

    And how many times do you need to show the exact same video where even Ben told you the same thing?

    You've always been very poor with attention to details.

    I don't care what his skates are doing. I care what he's doing. He's moving laterally while facing the puck carrier. That's what people want to be able to do, and what they can't do with TPS. But if I'm wrong, then just show me a video of someone in this game doing what that guy is doing. It's a basic part of playing defense in hockey, and the current skating engine does not allow us to do it. We need to be able to move laterally without spinning or pivoting away from the puck carrier, and we can't. That's the fundamental problem that people are talking about.

    Ben has mentioned on here that they are looking into systems that would allow us to move our upper body independent of our skates.

    Seems like that would allow us to accomplish this. All we can do is hope.

    I'm still hoping for better precision skating as well.
  • Bmh245
    905 posts Member
    edited January 2017
    iBaader wrote: »
    Bmh245 wrote: »
    iBaader wrote: »
    Sorry but a big no here. You're totally wrong. His skates are NOT moving laterally. His torso is facing the puck carrier but his skates NEVER move laterally.

    And how many times do you need to show the exact same video where even Ben told you the same thing?

    You've always been very poor with attention to details.

    I don't care what his skates are doing. I care what he's doing. He's moving laterally while facing the puck carrier. That's what people want to be able to do, and what they can't do with TPS. But if I'm wrong, then just show me a video of someone in this game doing what that guy is doing. It's a basic part of playing defense in hockey, and the current skating engine does not allow us to do it. We need to be able to move laterally without spinning or pivoting away from the puck carrier, and we can't. That's the fundamental problem that people are talking about.

    The problem here isn't tps. But the solution is a defensive skill stick.

    Tps is doing exactly what can be done in that video (just by the skates). But his torso movement is something we don't have. But that has nothing to do with tps. Tps is skates, not torso.

    So like I just said, a solution could be a defensive skill stick. By skating forward, using your stick to follow a player could turn his torso.

    But based on your video, tps does exactly that.

    I don't want to get into a long semantic discussion, but when Ben talked about TPS before it launched (in NHL 13), he said it would give users "total control" in terms of where they were facing. (Not where their skates were facing, but where "they were facing.") I don't feel like I have total control over where my player is facing in this game -- at all.

    You can say that's not TPS, but TPS was what changed VC from being a "face the puck" mechanic to being a backskate mechanic. And by making that change so without also giving us the ability to turn our upper bodies to face the puck, it basically guaranteed that we would often have to play defense with our sides turned to the puck carrier. So when people say that TPS made it hard to face the play, they're right.

    Of course, with NHL 14 we were promised TPS would give us "the ability to move laterally across the ice while still facing the puck" -- exactly what people are asking for. But is this actually in the game? And if it is, why do I never see it?
  • iBaader wrote: »
    You remember what he said back in NHL 13? Ya right.

    And VC NEVER made you face the puck always. In the defence zone, if the puck carrier was behind the net, your dman would face up ice. So where are you getting your "misinformation" from?

    And you weren't even around back pre-tps. But back then, there were LOTS of threads about figure skaters and puck raggers. Wayyyyy more than now.

    So don't make things up when you weren't even around here to see what was being complained about.

    I've been playing the game since NHL 11, and I lurked on these boards for a long time before posting, so I know what people were complaining about. And I know VC didn't always make you face the puck. But in the situations we're talking about here, holding VC would let you face the puck. TPS did away with that.

    Regardless, I'll just repost what I wrote above, since it's the key point, and you're not engaging with it:

    TPS was what changed VC from being a "face the puck" mechanic to being a backskate mechanic. And by doing so without also giving us the ability to turn our upper bodies to face the puck, it basically guaranteed that we would often have to play defense with our sides turned to the puck carrier. So when people complain that TPS doesn't let them face the play, they're right.

    Oh, and here's that interview with Ben that I didn't remember:

    http://www2.ea.com/news/true-performance-skating-deep-dive


  • eric57664 wrote: »
    So you want to remove 3 refs off the ice and expand the size of the rink? Hahahha.

    How can ea ever take you seriously. Lol.
    Eashl isn't an NHL simulation, it doesn't need 3 refs on the ice clogging up the already small rink. Also, remove all the cutscenes in game. Maybe leave in the replay when a goal is scored (although I'd be fine without it), but everything else can go. There is an action tracker at the end or you can record plays you like in your own. The game is too long.
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    You guys all have points in this discussion but it all gets way to clouded with the banter back and forth.

    I used the Nyquist clip myself to explain that defenders don't strafe very often on defense. It isn't often they are moving slow enough or at the right angles to strafe.

    I did mention as others reminded that we would need to allow you to rotate your upper body separately to what your skates are doing and that is what you do see more of in the Nyquist clip. The reason the defender has to pick a skating direction and is forced to pivot is the reason he gets beat back the other way before the final shot. This all gets complicated when many of you talk about the skating rather than the upper body being square as some are asking for strafes and mohawks and others just want their shoulders square and understand the limitations of skating at speed and at angles beyond what your ankle can do in a Mohawk.

    I also posted a video link many pages back of that LA Kings training practice where they ran rushes which showed how the defenders had to skate laterally across the ice at speed and what they did to minimize and close their gap. It was all very similar to what we have in our game as far as the pivots, angles and skates themselves were concerned.

    It is certainly possible on skates to do what we tried to add with precision skating but there are limitations with that type of skating. The one that we need to make the most accessible is the most common and what we currently do with pivoting forwards or backwards to keep your vision control angle in your front 180 degrees. In the past videogame versions, you could just strafe at speed, didn't have to commit to a pivot and it gave defenders a great sense of control. I understand why players want that control but it isn't possible if we want things to be realistic and if want pivots to matter as part of the balance of speed vs gap and angles.

    We do need to add the upper body movement and what some have wanted from a defensive skill stick so that you can keep your shoulders square and facing your VC target even if your skate blades have to be closer to lateral across the ice to move the angle you are requesting.

    The changes that were mentioned in NHL 14 are still in the game and those were the shallower cross overs you can do on the ice if the angle is shallow. As you turn sharper, there is a point where you have to pivot your hips and can no longer be going across your skate blades at an angle like that at those speeds.

    Until we change controls and/or movement for precision skating OR until we give unique control over your upper body from your lower, this discussion and each of your points will remain the same. I suggest taking a breather, know that we are looking at how to further improve it and that is really all that can be said at this time. Anything beyond that will just be stating the same points in different ways and anything to save more bickering on the forums would be nice.
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    The reason the defender has to pick a skating direction and is forced to pivot is the reason he gets beat back the other way before the final shot. This all gets complicated when many of you talk about the skating rather than the upper body being square as some are asking for strafes and mohawks and others just want their shoulders square and understand the limitations of skating at speed and at angles beyond what your ankle can do in a Mohawk.

    In the past videogame versions, you could just strafe at speed, didn't have to commit to a pivot and it gave defenders a great sense of control. I understand why players want that control but it isn't possible if we want things to be realistic and if want pivots to matter as part of the balance of speed vs gap and angles.

    We do need to add the upper body movement and what some have wanted from a defensive skill stick so that you can keep your shoulders square and facing your VC target even if your skate blades have to be closer to lateral across the ice to move the angle you are requesting.

    I'm all in favor of having to commit to a direction, and not being able to instantaneously shift the other way. Being able to keep my shoulders square to the target while on defense has always been my biggest issue with the skating engine. If you can bring that back into the game, and the facing issues that cause the unasked-for spins and pivots, that would make a huge difference.
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