EA Forums - Banner

Madden Video: Catch-Up Speed

Was watching a video from a Madden player who was showing the developers that there is a clear instance of game design deciding when the infamous "catch-up speed" was going to register. At around 3:45, he begins to show that the catch-up speed affect doesn't actually take place until Gronk catches the football.

What that vid looked like, as the video owner also exclaims, is that this wasn't decided by ratings but more so decided by game design. Once Gronk catches the ball, suddenly Joe Haden (the defender) turns into The Flash all of the sudden. Now, Joe Haden has 90 speed, but he doesn't show his speed until the very moment the ball is caught.

Now we know EA sports games share the same engine. So, some of the same AI mechanics in Madden also are going to rear their head in NHL, and visa versa, I'd imagine is the case. But seeing this video looked no different than the sudden catch-up speed defenders in NHL will show once a guy gains puck possession and starts bolting down the ice.

Found the video interesting, and all too familiar. To me, it shows that the catch-up speed is not only there, but it's a game design that activates once possession takes place. It, of course, is most notable when the offensive player has a clear step on the defender.

[url=

Replies

  • I stopped watching when i saw a press on gronk with a CB
  • I stopped watching when i saw a press on gronk with a CB

    But this type of thinking is the reason EA games are in the shape they are in. Just because the user is clearly an idiot doesn't invalidate the flawed programming in what the video shows.

    This mentality plagues this forum and its cancerous to the development of this game.
  • I remember this being an issue in madden 03 or so. I had it on PC. Kordell Stewart, a very mobile quarterback, kept getting caught by big fat defensive linemen. I got frustrated, edited Kordell's stats to 99 speed, agility, anything that affected speed. Still, roll out of the pocket right and get caught from behind by a 350 pound defensive lineman before I could cross the line of scrimmage.

    Same in this game. Get ahead of a defenseman for a breakaway and you can actually feel your skater hit a wall and slow down while the other team catches up to you.
  • BoboFloggins
    2170 posts Member
    edited December 2016
    I stopped watching when i saw a press on gronk with a CB

    But this type of thinking is the reason EA games are in the shape they are in. Just because the user is clearly an **** doesn't invalidate the flawed programming in what the video shows.

    This mentality plagues this forum and its cancerous to the development of this game.

    I just figured this was understood by now.

    99's are gonna 99, brah.

    Yes i know what the guy in the vid is saying. Been this was since I was a kid playing these games.

    And if he was on all-madden, fahgitaboutit.
  • Was watching a video from a Madden player who was showing the developers that there is a clear instance of game design deciding when the infamous "catch-up speed" was going to register. At around 3:45, he begins to show that the catch-up speed affect doesn't actually take place until Gronk catches the football.

    What that vid looked like, as the video owner also exclaims, is that this wasn't decided by ratings but more so decided by game design. Once Gronk catches the ball, suddenly Joe Haden (the defender) turns into The Flash all of the sudden. Now, Joe Haden has 90 speed, but he doesn't show his speed until the very moment the ball is caught.

    I really think you're misunderstanding what the guy is saying here. His problem isn't with the catch-up speed effect. His problem is that Haden -- a high defensive-awareness guy who's faster than Gronkowski -- isn't able to close the gap with Gronk while the ball is in the air. And he isn't able to close the gap because instead of chasing Gronkowski down, he's looking for the ball, which is something no NFL cornerback would do. IRL, Haden, once Gronk gets past him, would immediately turn and chase him down. Instead, he basically acts as if he's right next to Gronk, looking for the ball even though he has no chance of stopping it (since he's three steps behind the receiver).

    The takeaway from this is actually the same: the game is overriding its own rules in order to achieve a particular outcome (Gronk makes the catch with ease). But the issue isn't the catch-up speed -- it's the game making this high defensive-awareness corner act like a dolt in order to make the catch happen.
  • Bmh245 wrote: »
    Was watching a video from a Madden player who was showing the developers that there is a clear instance of game design deciding when the infamous "catch-up speed" was going to register. At around 3:45, he begins to show that the catch-up speed affect doesn't actually take place until Gronk catches the football.

    What that vid looked like, as the video owner also exclaims, is that this wasn't decided by ratings but more so decided by game design. Once Gronk catches the ball, suddenly Joe Haden (the defender) turns into The Flash all of the sudden. Now, Joe Haden has 90 speed, but he doesn't show his speed until the very moment the ball is caught.

    I really think you're misunderstanding what the guy is saying here. His problem isn't with the catch-up speed effect. His problem is that Haden -- a high defensive-awareness guy who's faster than Gronkowski -- isn't able to close the gap with Gronk while the ball is in the air. And he isn't able to close the gap because instead of chasing Gronkowski down, he's looking for the ball, which is something no NFL cornerback would do. IRL, Haden, once Gronk gets past him, would immediately turn and chase him down. Instead, he basically acts as if he's right next to Gronk, looking for the ball even though he has no chance of stopping it (since he's three steps behind the receiver).

    The takeaway from this is actually the same: the game is overriding its own rules in order to achieve a particular outcome (Gronk makes the catch with ease). But the issue isn't the catch-up speed -- it's the game making this high defensive-awareness corner act like a dolt in order to make the catch happen.

    been this way since I was a kid.

    99's are gonna 99.

    same deal in hockey, I am sure - but I stopped playing franchise and Be A Pro in hockey years ago.

    whatever it takes for the 99 to get his 99 on is going to happen.

    yes I could see this ****ing people off (still - after decades of it).
  • Not surprised at all. Anyone who can't see it clearly doesn't play enough. In HUT offline seasons, using my team of 87-88 overall players and playing a European team that is 69-70 overall. How is it there is no speed difference between my team and theirs, whether it's on Pro or All Star the speed is not much different. I can't skate faster than a 70 overall defensemen using players with 90 skating + close to full green line.. EA Logic.
  • The exact reason I can't take this game seriously.. Some of these events have nothing to do with person with the controller to much of the game is predetermined and there are far to many animations. TPS is such a crutch and the player awareness is embarrassing.
  • Excellent video pointing out the scripted garbage this game puts in. This is very reminisce of the defenders turning on "steroid" mode and catching up to the puck carrier on a breakaway.
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    Bmh seems to be the one in this thread that has understood the original video. The issue isn't the defender catching up to the receiver after he makes the catch (his speed advantage is such that he should). The issue is the defensive awareness and tactic of ball watching vs just using his speed to catch up for tight coverage first once he was beat.

    In NHL, we have a penalty to the puck carriers speed when he is handling the puck but that gets negated when you are in hustle and pushing the puck ahead. So you shouldn't be caught behind on a breakaway if you have the jump and/or speed advantage and don't slow down too much when going to make your move. Different tuning in the past for backwards skating speed, speed of pivots and speed lost in the transition, etc. can all have an impact on this but it isn't artificial in any way, it is just tuning. It seems pretty decent now but I am sure like everything there are subjective opinions on it.

    As for offline HUT, other than reaction time and decision making, the difficulty won't make much difference. It won't change a players speed. For AI players, it may change their effort or how quickly they go after a loose puck though comparing lower to higher difficulties.

    Game style could make a difference though. On traditional, the game mechanics are more forgiving and a bit ramped up from realism compared to Competitive and especially compared to Full Sim. If the floor comes up and the mechanics are more forgiving, there isn't as much room to differentiate in attributes. Not sure if that is what you are seeing in speed difference but speed should be pretty noticeable. If you are looking at for races to loose pucks, it can sometimes be that the AI reacts quicker than they should and gets into full hustle faster as a result and it can be that the endurance effects, especially on the more forgiving game styles don't have as much of an impact as they could/should.
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    Bmh seems to be the one in this thread that has understood the original video. The issue isn't the defender catching up to the receiver after he makes the catch (his speed advantage is such that he should).The issue is the defensive awareness and tactic of ball watching vs just using his speed to catch up for tight coverage first once he was beat.

    In NHL, we have a penalty to the puck carriers speed when he is handling the puck but that gets negated when you are in hustle and pushing the puck ahead. So you shouldn't be caught behind on a breakaway if you have the jump and/or speed advantage and don't slow down too much when going to make your move. Different tuning in the past for backwards skating speed, speed of pivots and speed lost in the transition, etc. can all have an impact on this but it isn't artificial in any way, it is just tuning. It seems pretty decent now but I am sure like everything there are subjective opinions on it.

    As for offline HUT, other than reaction time and decision making, the difficulty won't make much difference. It won't change a players speed. For AI players, it may change their effort or how quickly they go after a loose puck though comparing lower to higher difficulties.

    Game style could make a difference though. On traditional, the game mechanics are more forgiving and a bit ramped up from realism compared to Competitive and especially compared to Full Sim. If the floor comes up and the mechanics are more forgiving, there isn't as much room to differentiate in attributes. Not sure if that is what you are seeing in speed difference but speed should be pretty noticeable. If you are looking at for races to loose pucks, it can sometimes be that the AI reacts quicker than they should and gets into full hustle faster as a result and it can be that the endurance effects, especially on the more forgiving game styles don't have as much of an impact as they could/should.

    You are actually dead wrong here both men are looking back at the football the CB should be gaining regardless because he is much faster the receiver is actually at a huge disadvantage here because he has to adjust to the ball. It 100% taking the stats out of the competition for a forgone conclusion.
  • I think the better argument can be made if the video had a series of these incidents happening that show a pattern.
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    Bmh seems to be the one in this thread that has understood the original video. The issue isn't the defender catching up to the receiver after he makes the catch (his speed advantage is such that he should). The issue is the defensive awareness and tactic of ball watching vs just using his speed to catch up for tight coverage first once he was beat.

    In NHL, we have a penalty to the puck carriers speed when he is handling the puck but that gets negated when you are in hustle and pushing the puck ahead. So you shouldn't be caught behind on a breakaway if you have the jump and/or speed advantage and don't slow down too much when going to make your move. Different tuning in the past for backwards skating speed, speed of pivots and speed lost in the transition, etc. can all have an impact on this but it isn't artificial in any way, it is just tuning. It seems pretty decent now but I am sure like everything there are subjective opinions on it.

    As for offline HUT, other than reaction time and decision making, the difficulty won't make much difference. It won't change a players speed. For AI players, it may change their effort or how quickly they go after a loose puck though comparing lower to higher difficulties.

    Game style could make a difference though. On traditional, the game mechanics are more forgiving and a bit ramped up from realism compared to Competitive and especially compared to Full Sim. If the floor comes up and the mechanics are more forgiving, there isn't as much room to differentiate in attributes. Not sure if that is what you are seeing in speed difference but speed should be pretty noticeable. If you are looking at for races to loose pucks, it can sometimes be that the AI reacts quicker than they should and gets into full hustle faster as a result and it can be that the endurance effects, especially on the more forgiving game styles don't have as much of an impact as they could/should.

    Gronk is a 99.

    Solid chance he was going to score with a CB in press. Especially if this kid plays on all madden.

    It's just the way it is in Madden. It's always been that way.

    Playing a press with a CB on Gronk in man to man is dumb to begin with and you deserve to get scored on. And that, my friend, is the logic.

    99s are gonna get their 99 on.
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer

    You are actually dead wrong here both men are looking back at the football the CB should be gaining regardless because he is much faster the receiver is actually at a huge disadvantage here because he has to adjust to the ball. It 100% taking the stats out of the competition for a forgone conclusion.

    That would be correct if I was inferring that he was physically slower because he was watching the ball but I am not saying that. I see this all the time with inexperienced corner backs that get caught watching the QB rather than staying tight to their man -- obviously this is a simulation and not real life but that is why I picked apart the tactics in a comparison to the real world breakdown of the play. I honestly don't know what the Madden team is doing behind the scenes but I doubt they are ruling out the attributes and instead it is just the effort level of the CB matching the pace of the receiver (and running slower than he physically could) but not getting a tighter gap first. Could be a bug in that coverage code, could be a punishing tactic for playing tight on the line and getting beat with a streak type pattern or could be the difficulty that was played on that promotes an easier passing game with less effort in recovery and defensive awareness. If you play our game on Semi Pro vs All Star, you are going to have players open for one timers much longer, goalies cheating in the net/recovering slower, etc.. We would need to know all the facts of the Madden clip and also let their developers chime in to know what exactly goes into that scenario based on all the factors.





  • BoboFloggins
    2170 posts Member
    edited December 2016
    NHLDev wrote: »

    You are actually dead wrong here both men are looking back at the football the CB should be gaining regardless because he is much faster the receiver is actually at a huge disadvantage here because he has to adjust to the ball. It 100% taking the stats out of the competition for a forgone conclusion.

    That would be correct if I was inferring that he was physically slower because he was watching the ball but I am not saying that. I see this all the time with inexperienced corner backs that get caught watching the QB rather than staying tight to their man -- obviously this is a simulation and not real life but that is why I picked apart the tactics in a comparison to the real world breakdown of the play. I honestly don't know what the Madden team is doing behind the scenes but I doubt they are ruling out the attributes and instead it is just the effort level of the CB matching the pace of the receiver (and running slower than he physically could) but not getting a tighter gap first. Could be a bug in that coverage code, could be a punishing tactic for playing tight on the line and getting beat with a streak type pattern or could be the difficulty that was played on that promotes an easier passing game with less effort in recovery and defensive awareness. If you play our game on Semi Pro vs All Star, you are going to have players open for one timers much longer, goalies cheating in the net/recovering slower, etc.. We would need to know all the facts of the Madden clip and also let their developers chime in to know what exactly goes into that scenario based on all the factors.





    Yes that. And Gronk is a 99 which means the covering opponent immediately drops 10 points o:)

    J/k.... sort of lol
  • Rangersny81
    173 posts Member
    edited December 2016
    @EADevs...Would you be able to go into detail as to what triggers the AI to abandon positioning? The AI seems to act bipolar. In other words, one second they are doing everything right, maintaining position and so forth. Then, out of nowhere, the AI will either over-pursue and get caught behind the play or under-pursue and get caught daydreaming - vacating solid positioning.

    Does anyone have any good videos showcasing this? The big one is sometimes the AI defender will inexplicably skate to the blue line and let the puck carrier, who is just crossing the blue line and speeding into the zone, go right by and the defender who skated to the blue line is so out of position that there will be no chance of recovery to get back and defend.

    I know last year it seemed to me that when players took the puck behind the net on offense, the AI defenders would suddenly act very dumbfounded. They would then abandon positioning and leave one-timers and cross-crease passes wide open. It's like that area confused them.

    Seems to me, but I may be inaccurate on this, that there are certain "hot spots" on the ice that maybe cause the AI to get confused?

  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    @EADevs...Would you be able to go into detail as to what triggers the AI to abandon positioning? The AI seems to act bipolar. In other words, one second they are doing everything right, maintaining position and so forth. Then, out of nowhere, the AI will either over-pursue and get caught behind the play or under-pursue and get caught daydreaming - vacating solid positioning.

    Does anyone have any good videos showcasing this? The big one is sometimes the AI defender will inexplicably skate to the blue line and let the puck carrier, who is just crossing the blue line and speeding into the zone, go right by and the defender who skated to the blue line is so out of position that there will be no chance of recovery to get back and defend.

    I know last year it seemed to me that when players took the puck behind the net on offense, the AI defenders would suddenly act very dumbfounded. They would then abandon positioning and leave one-timers and cross-crease passes wide open. It's like that area confused them.

    Seems to me, but I may be inaccurate on this, that there are certain "hot spots" on the ice that maybe cause the AI to get confused?

    The short answer is for a bunch of reasons. It would take a long time to really get into it all but the high level is that the AI has their overall team strategies that they are trying to play by which changes how they forecheck, defend a rush, defend in zone, etc.. There are a bunch of sub decisions in each of those as well.

    They also are looking at their own ability and based on how aggressive or passive they are, decide how tight they want to play their man, what sort of gap they need, etc.

    They also have logic to determine what the current scoring chance is of each of the players on the ice. This allows them to consider the threat of the puck carrier himself and also the potential threat of a pass option. They are also calculating where a bunch of factors to determine what may come up in the future (how quick a pass can get to a player, how fast the puck carrier can get somewhere, if they are on their forehand or backhand, angle to net, if they are gliding and setting up to shoot/deke or if they are skating with speed and committing more to a specific direction limiting their options, as a few examples).

    The case of leaving players open on the backdoor last year was a couple different things. They didn't have a solid tie up mechanic, which is why we added net battles for both AI and human defenders. They also saw the puck carrier even at tight angles as a high scoring threat over the pass option they were potentially leaving open. They put too much emphasis on the immediate rather than the future. Now, they will see that player in the slot or the backdoor as a bigger threat and realize better how quickly a pass could get over to them so that is why those windows of those players being open is much smaller now and a puck carrier, in general will need to have a much better lane to the net and angle for them to come over and help.

    When they make mistakes, it is normally that they are picking up the wrong assignment, have too many assignments and are grading them with the wrong scale due to holes in the logic (but the same logic that works in other cases so it's tough), aren't aware that committing hard away from their net is a bigger risk than waiting for the play to come to them, and other situations in and around that type of thing. They also start and stop too often and are too direct point focused rather than area focused. This can also lead to overcommitting because their may be a best spot to cover their opponent but it isn't a circumference around that which has an ideal falloff. Instead a human would still favor being goal side, which they understand but if they skate hard at a point and it changes, committing less to the perfect spot and settling into it would be better.
  • Rangersny81
    173 posts Member
    edited December 2016
    NHLDev wrote: »
    The short answer is for a bunch of reasons. It would take a long time to really get into it all but the high level is that the AI has their overall team strategies that they are trying to play by which changes how they forecheck, defend a rush, defend in zone, etc.. There are a bunch of sub decisions in each of those as well.

    They also are looking at their own ability and based on how aggressive or passive they are, decide how tight they want to play their man, what sort of gap they need, etc.

    They also have logic to determine what the current scoring chance is of each of the players on the ice. This allows them to consider the threat of the puck carrier himself and also the potential threat of a pass option. They are also calculating where a bunch of factors to determine what may come up in the future (how quick a pass can get to a player, how fast the puck carrier can get somewhere, if they are on their forehand or backhand, angle to net, if they are gliding and setting up to shoot/deke or if they are skating with speed and committing more to a specific direction limiting their options, as a few examples).

    The case of leaving players open on the backdoor last year was a couple different things. They didn't have a solid tie up mechanic, which is why we added net battles for both AI and human defenders. They also saw the puck carrier even at tight angles as a high scoring threat over the pass option they were potentially leaving open. They put too much emphasis on the immediate rather than the future. Now, they will see that player in the slot or the backdoor as a bigger threat and realize better how quickly a pass could get over to them so that is why those windows of those players being open is much smaller now and a puck carrier, in general will need to have a much better lane to the net and angle for them to come over and help.

    When they make mistakes, it is normally that they are picking up the wrong assignment, have too many assignments and are grading them with the wrong scale due to holes in the logic (but the same logic that works in other cases so it's tough), aren't aware that committing hard away from their net is a bigger risk than waiting for the play to come to them, and other situations in and around that type of thing. They also start and stop too often and are too direct point focused rather than area focused. This can also lead to overcommitting because their may be a best spot to cover their opponent but it isn't a circumference around that which has an ideal falloff. Instead a human would still favor being goal side, which they understand but if they skate hard at a point and it changes, committing less to the perfect spot and settling into it would be better.

    Thank you for posting this. Great post, now I can at least, in the back of my mind, understand the logic behind it! So they are kind of cycling through different decision-making processes depending on the scenario.

    I'm really a major advocate of we don't need superhuman AI we just need standard, reliable AI in online modes. In other words, we just need them in the general area where we can switch to a teammate and not be helpless on defense, etc. However, I guess the challenge is separating the type of AI we get offline versus online. I suppose they have to blend together in some way?

    Anyhow, thanks for answering and going into detail. Next time the AI drives me nuts I can at least understand to a degree what may have happened, lol. :)



  • NHLDev wrote: »
    Bmh seems to be the one in this thread that has understood the original video. The issue isn't the defender catching up to the receiver after he makes the catch (his speed advantage is such that he should). The issue is the defensive awareness and tactic of ball watching vs just using his speed to catch up for tight coverage first once he was beat.

    In NHL, we have a penalty to the puck carriers speed when he is handling the puck but that gets negated when you are in hustle and pushing the puck ahead. So you shouldn't be caught behind on a breakaway if you have the jump and/or speed advantage and don't slow down too much when going to make your move. Different tuning in the past for backwards skating speed, speed of pivots and speed lost in the transition, etc. can all have an impact on this but it isn't artificial in any way, it is just tuning. It seems pretty decent now but I am sure like everything there are subjective opinions on it.

    As for offline HUT, other than reaction time and decision making, the difficulty won't make much difference. It won't change a players speed. For AI players, it may change their effort or how quickly they go after a loose puck though comparing lower to higher difficulties.

    Game style could make a difference though. On traditional, the game mechanics are more forgiving and a bit ramped up from realism compared to Competitive and especially compared to Full Sim. If the floor comes up and the mechanics are more forgiving, there isn't as much room to differentiate in attributes. Not sure if that is what you are seeing in speed difference but speed should be pretty noticeable. If you are looking at for races to loose pucks, it can sometimes be that the AI reacts quicker than they should and gets into full hustle faster as a result and it can be that the endurance effects, especially on the more forgiving game styles don't have as much of an impact as they could/should.

    Actually you seem to be missing the point as well. The lack of ground gained by Haden is just an example of the scripted moments that drive players crazy. It does relate to the catch up speed of a defender on a breakaway because when I have a rested player who has 90 speed and acceleration, catch a pass in flight, behind a defenseman facing the wrong way who has lower speed and acceleration, and he catches Me? It means the game is scripted for him to catch me everytime no matter what. I'm hitting the hustle button and not only is my player (who just came off the bench) not increasing the gap on a slower player, who had to turn around and start his momentum from scratch, but that slower player catches him and stops the breakaway? That is, as the video maker said "the game breaking it's own rules." I also notice this (like stripping the puck by having a stick phase through the puck carriers legs and body) is specific to the CPU. As in, my players never catch the guy on a breakaway or steal the puck by phasing through his body (and I have looked for this incessantly) only the CPU controlled teams can do this. It happens more at higher difficulty levels, as these cheats are what is used to make the game harder, instead of improving the AI.
Sign In or Register to comment.

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!