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Ratings Don't Matter (Proof!!)

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Well here you go, suspicion confirmed!!



And for the naysayers here you go:

Replies

  • okay... so lets play a game where you have a good team.. then play another game where you have all 80 overalls, and see how different the two games are
  • B_Bunny
    888 posts Moderator
    edited December 2016
    This was NHL 15...I think we all wrote that game off.
    PSN: B-Bunny
  • I'm aware that it is NHL 15, however this is proof that ratings don't matter.
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    edited December 2016
    Well here you go, suspicion confirmed!!

    Unfortunately, this was the case in NHL 15. I wasn't on gameplay that year but I was responsible for the gameplay that he was comparing to on previous gen when there was larger separation and have been for 16 and 17.

    If you did tests now, you would see that although there have been changes to some core mechanics since last gen, that the overall balance and tuning of the game follows the same principles that I pushed last gen and there is good attribute separation. You can also ask the guys taking the time to tweak the sliders for their offline gameplay experiences which give an opportunity to show the range in the models in terms of what I call accountability. It is essentially the physical parameters of what you are trying to do mixed in with how attributes also play an impact. Some things in the online default settings such as pass receptions are more forgiving than I would personally like (due to feedback from the core community during 16) but the models themselves allow for good attribute separation -- the higher you bring the floor though (more forgiving tuning), the more compressed it will be.

    In response to those videos you posted specifically, skating and deking have the separation we are after though. It was one of the first things I looked at when asked to return to gameplay for '16. We spent a lot of time on attribute variation in different mechanics as we looked at what would work for EASHL player classes as well that year.

  • I agree with you, Ben. Puck reception isn't as good as it should be. It should be lower so why is it so high? Is it to cater to not so good players? If so, why do you make a hockey game that calls a mode "hardcore" but then ruin it by doing things like that?

    And why did you leave after NHL 14 (if you are able to answer that)?
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    edited December 2016
    eric57664 wrote: »
    I agree with you, Ben. Puck reception isn't as good as it should be. It should be lower so why is it so high? Is it to cater to not so good players? If so, why do you make a hockey game that calls a mode "hardcore" but then ruin it by doing things like that?

    And why did you leave after NHL 14 (if you are able to answer that)?

    I was still on the NHL product, they just had me focus on presentation only for the first year on these consoles. Before that, I was doing gameplay and pres.

    Working with the Gamechangers and looking at comments on this forum and other spots online, it seemed the harsh tuning on pass receptions was hurting another goal of ours which was to reward good team based gameplay.

    I felt that our pass interceptions, pokechecks, hitting and incidental contact, were in a spot that we could loosen up the criteria on pass receptions themselves and still have balanced gameplay.

    I don't think it is about catering to weaker players. It is about not giving people an excuse to not pass the puck :)

  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    I know the is kind of off topic dealing with eashl, but still has to deal with attribute differences, but I'm curious as to your thoughts on it.

    Is anything being looked at as far as player builds and making using anything other than a power forward, TWF, or grinder an option in 5s/6s. As it stands now there is absolutely no benefit or point to using a Sniper, Dangler or Playmaker in 6s, they are just too small and don't do anything offensively that you can't do with the bigger builds that are at least capable of taking a bump without getting good destroyed or losing the puck.

    Using a power forward, my hands, shot, and skating feel no different than using a sniper or any of the smaller builds which are actually supposed to be more offensive. Just look at the LG site, it shows you the builds used during each game in the stats and it's pretty much nothing but the 3 big player types across the board. I've even messed around where my club goes 5 enforcers just to mess around and even that still barely feels any different offensively.

    Maybe it's just the massive input delay I've been getting since the new consoles which make them all feel the same, but it still doesn't explain why almost everyone else is using the same builds every game.

    We track stats on the different player classes and see that attributes are causing a stereotypical result in the statistics when looking at a mass sample size.

    When it comes to top level gameplay, there are a few things that factor in. People need to be more well rounded offensively and defensively so don't want to trade stick checking, hitting or pass interception ability for more pure offense, human goalies and their tuning (possibly reacting too fast to reaction based shots and getting sniped less than they should) and also players choosing what they 'think' works so following trends around them and adapting to those around them.

    Speed being even (other than height/weight effects) increases the power of size, possibly disproportionate to the power of skill (shooting accuracy, passing, etc) and that has been talked about with the Gamechangers. It was a choice in 16 to not have a 'speed kills' game and focus on all other balance first. We may be in a place now where we can start to play with this again.

    Every year we tune the game with what is currently available and try to make all attributes matter and still get a balance in offense vs defense and fun factor in all of it. Even when people had manual control over their attributes, they boxed themselves into two types of builds overall. We can't control what the community ultimately thinks will give them the best success but we do take it all into account when updating/adding new mechanics and tuning the existing game by tracking usage telemetry and statistical output across different skill ranges of players.
  • Snipecity98XB1
    299 posts Member
    edited December 2016
    I'm sorry but there is not much attribute separation at all so I'm not buying that 'they've made changes'. To add to what Assisted is saying, If I use a grinder or TWF I can pass and shoot just as good as a sniper or playmaker. The only small difference (in my experience) is on AI goalies the sniper can probably score more than a grinder but not much of a difference. Also in HUT single player seasons, I can't outskate any of the opponents Dmen even on Pro, even if it's against the 70 overall Hershey Bears. This is from puck drop so that fatigue **** is just a cop out excuse. Also in this game, anyone with eyes can see that you almost gain speed when in stride as opposed to head down skating.

    This is off topic but why does the puck gain so much speed when going down the ice for an icing ? I can't be the only one who thinks it's insane, you miss a pass that wasn't held long and if it misses the targeted player it goes down the ice and picks up speed as if it were a slapshot. Oh this game...
  • I'm not convinced player speed is the same across all builds. I'll do some tests when I'm off next. The skating feels vastly different between a power forward and a dangler for example.
  • I'm not convinced player speed is the same across all builds. I'll do some tests when I'm off next. The skating feels vastly different between a power forward and a dangler for example.

    Because height/weight still have an effect. NHLDev mentioned this very recently too. ;)
  • agreed.

    a 6'4 240lb guy with 90 speed will not be as fast as a 5'10 160lb guy with 90 speed.
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    I know the is kind of off topic dealing with eashl, but still has to deal with attribute differences, but I'm curious as to your thoughts on it.

    Is anything being looked at as far as player builds and making using anything other than a power forward, TWF, or grinder an option in 5s/6s. As it stands now there is absolutely no benefit or point to using a Sniper, Dangler or Playmaker in 6s, they are just too small and don't do anything offensively that you can't do with the bigger builds that are at least capable of taking a bump without getting good destroyed or losing the puck.

    Using a power forward, my hands, shot, and skating feel no different than using a sniper or any of the smaller builds which are actually supposed to be more offensive. Just look at the LG site, it shows you the builds used during each game in the stats and it's pretty much nothing but the 3 big player types across the board. I've even messed around where my club goes 5 enforcers just to mess around and even that still barely feels any different offensively.

    Maybe it's just the massive input delay I've been getting since the new consoles which make them all feel the same, but it still doesn't explain why almost everyone else is using the same builds every game.

    We track stats on the different player classes and see that attributes are causing a stereotypical result in the statistics when looking at a mass sample size.

    When it comes to top level gameplay, there are a few things that factor in. People need to be more well rounded offensively and defensively so don't want to trade stick checking, hitting or pass interception ability for more pure offense, human goalies and their tuning (possibly reacting too fast to reaction based shots and getting sniped less than they should) and also players choosing what they 'think' works so following trends around them and adapting to those around them.

    Speed being even (other than height/weight effects) increases the power of size, possibly disproportionate to the power of skill (shooting accuracy, passing, etc) and that has been talked about with the Gamechangers. It was a choice in 16 to not have a 'speed kills' game and focus on all other balance first. We may be in a place now where we can start to play with this again.

    Every year we tune the game with what is currently available and try to make all attributes matter and still get a balance in offense vs defense and fun factor in all of it. Even when people had manual control over their attributes, they boxed themselves into two types of builds overall. We can't control what the community ultimately thinks will give them the best success but we do take it all into account when updating/adding new mechanics and tuning the existing game by tracking usage telemetry and statistical output across different skill ranges of players.

    And that's what's missing from this game, speed. That's why so many ppl are holding on to the puck for so long. It's too easy to dangle around.

    Back in NHL 13, ya it was more of a straight line game, but that's what hockey is It's just players misreading their positioning and getting caught flat footed and left behind. But the biggest issue with the speed back then is that puck control and balance was just too high. The faster one was, the less balance and puck control they should have, but that wasn't the case in any of the games. Plus, there was no real way to control your speed properly. When you were moving your left stick, it would auto accelerate instead of just maintaining your current speed. If hustle was used, it should accelerate. And if you pull back slightly, you slow down. That's what's missing in making a proper speed/control management system.

    As I see so many nhlers "winding up" with their speed by circling around with high acceleration to get to top speed, I wish I could do that in this game.
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    I know the is kind of off topic dealing with eashl, but still has to deal with attribute differences, but I'm curious as to your thoughts on it.

    Is anything being looked at as far as player builds and making using anything other than a power forward, TWF, or grinder an option in 5s/6s. As it stands now there is absolutely no benefit or point to using a Sniper, Dangler or Playmaker in 6s, they are just too small and don't do anything offensively that you can't do with the bigger builds that are at least capable of taking a bump without getting good destroyed or losing the puck.

    Using a power forward, my hands, shot, and skating feel no different than using a sniper or any of the smaller builds which are actually supposed to be more offensive. Just look at the LG site, it shows you the builds used during each game in the stats and it's pretty much nothing but the 3 big player types across the board. I've even messed around where my club goes 5 enforcers just to mess around and even that still barely feels any different offensively.

    Maybe it's just the massive input delay I've been getting since the new consoles which make them all feel the same, but it still doesn't explain why almost everyone else is using the same builds every game.

    We track stats on the different player classes and see that attributes are causing a stereotypical result in the statistics when looking at a mass sample size.

    When it comes to top level gameplay, there are a few things that factor in. People need to be more well rounded offensively and defensively so don't want to trade stick checking, hitting or pass interception ability for more pure offense, human goalies and their tuning (possibly reacting too fast to reaction based shots and getting sniped less than they should) and also players choosing what they 'think' works so following trends around them and adapting to those around them.

    Speed being even (other than height/weight effects) increases the power of size, possibly disproportionate to the power of skill (shooting accuracy, passing, etc) and that has been talked about with the Gamechangers. It was a choice in 16 to not have a 'speed kills' game and focus on all other balance first. We may be in a place now where we can start to play with this again.

    Every year we tune the game with what is currently available and try to make all attributes matter and still get a balance in offense vs defense and fun factor in all of it. Even when people had manual control over their attributes, they boxed themselves into two types of builds overall. We can't control what the community ultimately thinks will give them the best success but we do take it all into account when updating/adding new mechanics and tuning the existing game by tracking usage telemetry and statistical output across different skill ranges of players.

    Two?

    Please elaborate.

    And "We can't control what the community ultimately thinks will give them the best success" - Sorry - but yes you can. You allow them to build their pro the way they want to.

    I guess it doesn't matter. Apparently the "Gamechangers" decided this preset stuff was the best direction?

    The game lost a like of shine here with that direction.
  • B_Bunny
    888 posts Moderator
    edited December 2016
    NHLDev wrote: »
    I know the is kind of off topic dealing with eashl, but still has to deal with attribute differences, but I'm curious as to your thoughts on it.

    Is anything being looked at as far as player builds and making using anything other than a power forward, TWF, or grinder an option in 5s/6s. As it stands now there is absolutely no benefit or point to using a Sniper, Dangler or Playmaker in 6s, they are just too small and don't do anything offensively that you can't do with the bigger builds that are at least capable of taking a bump without getting good destroyed or losing the puck.

    Using a power forward, my hands, shot, and skating feel no different than using a sniper or any of the smaller builds which are actually supposed to be more offensive. Just look at the LG site, it shows you the builds used during each game in the stats and it's pretty much nothing but the 3 big player types across the board. I've even messed around where my club goes 5 enforcers just to mess around and even that still barely feels any different offensively.

    Maybe it's just the massive input delay I've been getting since the new consoles which make them all feel the same, but it still doesn't explain why almost everyone else is using the same builds every game.

    We track stats on the different player classes and see that attributes are causing a stereotypical result in the statistics when looking at a mass sample size.

    When it comes to top level gameplay, there are a few things that factor in. People need to be more well rounded offensively and defensively so don't want to trade stick checking, hitting or pass interception ability for more pure offense, human goalies and their tuning (possibly reacting too fast to reaction based shots and getting sniped less than they should) and also players choosing what they 'think' works so following trends around them and adapting to those around them.

    Speed being even (other than height/weight effects) increases the power of size, possibly disproportionate to the power of skill (shooting accuracy, passing, etc) and that has been talked about with the Gamechangers. It was a choice in 16 to not have a 'speed kills' game and focus on all other balance first. We may be in a place now where we can start to play with this again.

    Every year we tune the game with what is currently available and try to make all attributes matter and still get a balance in offense vs defense and fun factor in all of it. Even when people had manual control over their attributes, they boxed themselves into two types of builds overall. We can't control what the community ultimately thinks will give them the best success but we do take it all into account when updating/adding new mechanics and tuning the existing game by tracking usage telemetry and statistical output across different skill ranges of players.

    Two?

    Please elaborate.

    And "We can't control what the community ultimately thinks will give them the best success" - Sorry - but yes you can. You allow them to build their pro the way they want to.

    I guess it doesn't matter. Apparently the "Gamechangers" decided this preset stuff was the best direction?

    The game lost a like of shine here with that direction.

    Gee, giving us a lot of credit there
    PSN: B-Bunny
  • BoboFloggins
    2170 posts Member
    edited December 2016
    B-Bunny wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    I know the is kind of off topic dealing with eashl, but still has to deal with attribute differences, but I'm curious as to your thoughts on it.

    Is anything being looked at as far as player builds and making using anything other than a power forward, TWF, or grinder an option in 5s/6s. As it stands now there is absolutely no benefit or point to using a Sniper, Dangler or Playmaker in 6s, they are just too small and don't do anything offensively that you can't do with the bigger builds that are at least capable of taking a bump without getting good destroyed or losing the puck.

    Using a power forward, my hands, shot, and skating feel no different than using a sniper or any of the smaller builds which are actually supposed to be more offensive. Just look at the LG site, it shows you the builds used during each game in the stats and it's pretty much nothing but the 3 big player types across the board. I've even messed around where my club goes 5 enforcers just to mess around and even that still barely feels any different offensively.

    Maybe it's just the massive input delay I've been getting since the new consoles which make them all feel the same, but it still doesn't explain why almost everyone else is using the same builds every game.

    We track stats on the different player classes and see that attributes are causing a stereotypical result in the statistics when looking at a mass sample size.

    When it comes to top level gameplay, there are a few things that factor in. People need to be more well rounded offensively and defensively so don't want to trade stick checking, hitting or pass interception ability for more pure offense, human goalies and their tuning (possibly reacting too fast to reaction based shots and getting sniped less than they should) and also players choosing what they 'think' works so following trends around them and adapting to those around them.

    Speed being even (other than height/weight effects) increases the power of size, possibly disproportionate to the power of skill (shooting accuracy, passing, etc) and that has been talked about with the Gamechangers. It was a choice in 16 to not have a 'speed kills' game and focus on all other balance first. We may be in a place now where we can start to play with this again.

    Every year we tune the game with what is currently available and try to make all attributes matter and still get a balance in offense vs defense and fun factor in all of it. Even when people had manual control over their attributes, they boxed themselves into two types of builds overall. We can't control what the community ultimately thinks will give them the best success but we do take it all into account when updating/adding new mechanics and tuning the existing game by tracking usage telemetry and statistical output across different skill ranges of players.

    Two?

    Please elaborate.

    And "We can't control what the community ultimately thinks will give them the best success" - Sorry - but yes you can. You allow them to build their pro the way they want to.

    I guess it doesn't matter. Apparently the "Gamechangers" decided this preset stuff was the best direction?

    The game lost a like of shine here with that direction.

    Gee, giving us a lot of credit there

    Was that insulting?

    It was a question.

    Or are ya saying you guys had no input on that decision?
  • Workin_OT wrote: »
    I'm not convinced player speed is the same across all builds. I'll do some tests when I'm off next. The skating feels vastly different between a power forward and a dangler for example.

    Because height/weight still have an effect. NHLDev mentioned this very recently too. ;)
    And I've read several of his posts that said speed was the same for all players....not the speed attribute. You can't say every player type is the same speed if ht/wt effect speed and all the builds are different ht/wt
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