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Randomness/Inconsistency and this series

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I played this game for the first time in weeks today, and after just 2 games of which 1 we won and 1 we lost I noticed how much RNG and inconsistency is in this game.

Am I the only one who absolutely hates this? Its in every aspect of the game. Taking shots without any pressure and you still fan on it sometimes or your stick breaks. You goto hit someone and make pefect contact and you bounce off. Slow passes regularly go right by people who are squared up waiting for that exact pass but a 90 mph slapshot is batted straight down out of the air on a clearing attempt every time.

Even puck pickups are random, some times you get them, some times you skate right through them. Goaltending is atrocious, you can have 10 good scoring chances in one end and then they come down and put a wrist shot 5 hole from the blue line or just put a toe drag cheese shot top corner.

Stick lifts and poke checking are random too, you can be in perfect position for a stick lift and get a high stick/slashing or break his stick, you can be hip to hip with a player and still trip him with a poke check.

I think this game gets worse every year, and I'm not counting that overpriced demo Nhl 15. If it keeps going this direction all the fun will be drained from this game and no matter how much I love hockey, I'll eventually stop buying this, and I'm sure others will too because I know my club mates feel the same way I do and I doubt we're the only ones.

Replies

  • Yea I feel very similar to the way you do. Slightly different perspective, but all too similar just the same.
  • Hotjoint
    81 posts Member
    edited February 2017
    OP, you're not alone. The majority of the players that I know who buy this game feel the same way. That's why myself and a ton of hardcore guys have played this game less and less. Randomness and broken gameplay just frustrates you. This series used to be fun to play, not anymore.
  • Ea thinks the game is heading in the right direction with the random elements. I have to thank Ea for making their intentions known/ visible, the only mode the random elements have the least effect is in hut.
  • Bmh245
    905 posts Member
    edited February 2017
    Lynch-CAN wrote: »
    Am I the only one who absolutely hates this? Its in every aspect of the game. Taking shots without any pressure and you still fan on it sometimes or your stick breaks.

    The whiffs in particular are incredibly frustrating, since they happen in every game, and they happen on completely easy D-to-D passes where the shooter is under no pressure at all. There's literally no difference between the passes that you whiff on and those you don't. There's no difference in terms of what you do as a shooter that makes you connect on some shots and whiff on others. It's purely random, and it's totally unrealistic: how many times do you see a top-rated NHL defenseman completely fan on a simple D-to-D pass?

    I have no idea why the devs thought it was a good idea to add these whiffs into the game. (And this is in HUT, by the way, so it's not true that randomness doesn't have a big impact on HUT, too.)

  • Dixonyu
    675 posts Member
    edited February 2017
    There is no logic to this game everything seems to happen randomly when the game wants it to ( stick breaks, whiffs, puck pick ups and some penalties) ... Pass assist/AI do not recognize objects like the net, boards, other players, etc.. ( confirmed by Ben in the last forums ). This game needs to reward skill more and bad plays less.
  • The whiff d to d one timers really get under my skin. Also so many garbage goals...no creativity on the offensive end. I'd rather give up high percentage goals from playing bad defense than playing good defense, knocking the puck off of two forwards and them blindly firing it at the net for a goal because my guy couldn't pick up the puck.

    And it's not even about the other team scoring...I scored some goals yesterday that an nhl goalie would have no issues saving. But when I do more advanced tic tac toe plays the goalie makes an unrealistic desperation saves. You don't get rewarded for good offense. The game too often bails out bad defense.

  • Cosign. First started noticing stuff as way back as NHL 12 when guys would skate right through good defense. The randomness and dice-roll elements really became noticeable though when we hit current gen (NHL 15 and beyond).

    EA clearly is mandating that they want to kill the skill gap. I can't think of any other reason why this kind of stuff would be in the game to this extent. Don't be surprised if this thread gets closed as fast as possible.
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    It is always interesting to read threads like this.

    The game is less two dimensional but it is not random. I understand why people feel it is random because it is easier to see something black and white rather than notice the grey areas. Then you mix in some bugs and it gets difficult for people to see the difference in the two.

    If someone can take as accurate and as hard of a shot from the same location on the ice regardless of who the player is, their current speed, what they were doing before the shot and angle to the net, it will all seem less random as you can pick the corner on that shot the same every time. However, if you have those aspects, then the skill gap is even bigger. A defender can take those elements into account when thinking about how to play the puck carrier and not let them maximize their potential. If you just look at ever shot taken from the slot as the same chance and don't consider those other elements, it surely will seem random. If you consider all those other elements, you will have a lot more success. Just because you made a tic tac toe passing play, doesn't automatically mean it is a goal. Making those passes increases the chance the goalie will be out of position but everything you did with each of those players before making the final pass is going to have an impact and the angle of the player shooting, where he decides to put the puck on net, if there is a screen, the goalie has to move into the save, etc. all factors in as well.

    Whiffs can be a couple different things. Sometimes it is a lack of coverage so if the pass is to a location they don't have IK range for the shot they need to take from that angle, they can miss. We attempted a fix to play regular pickups in this can and then shoot a wrist shot but it was happening in cases it shouldn't and felt really off hurting one-timers in general. In real life, a player would realize he can't connect, stop the puck with a regular pickup then put a shot on but in our game, the User requests the one timer before they even know if the pass is in a good spot or not. It can also be that the player didn't have enough time (pass too close, too hard, etc.) or it can also have to do with the timing on the controller of the User trying to perform the one timer. It can also be due to the timing from the User -- too early or too late can cause issues. Too early and he is trying to queue up the one timer in a position that may be a bit more awkward for him (again could be lack of coverage in our IK range from that shot angle as well) and too late and he doesn't have enough time to get to the puck with the shots available. The less you rush it, the more success you will have. The ones in your own end are similar. If you are near the boards and don't have the space/leverage to make the shot, he won't be able to connect without a physics solve around the boards causing issues. If you are spinning around at all, it can cause issues because of the loose puck and the timing/consistency of trying to pull that off. So in the end, there are some things in the game that can be cleaned up but it is on the User as well. There are players that don't flub many slapshots or miss many one timers simply because of more calm timing, settled angles from the passer and shooter before attempting them.

    I think what Lynch mentions in the original post are all things that can be looked at to tighten up. We want everyone to feel the game is consistent but I don't believe we want to go back to a more two dimensional game to do so. I understand all the points and know more than anything a lot more of this has to be explained to players as the series taught people for years you just had to do specific high level actions to have success and didn't have as many subtle factors or as harsh of tuning for physical factors.
  • Dixonyu
    675 posts Member
    edited February 2017
    Would be nice if vision control would face the puck, and kept the user facing the puck . And if the controls would change so if pressed the left stick between 7 and 8 o clock he would skate back on that angle facing the puck . Would help the shooter square up on the shot , amongst other things .
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    It is always interesting to read threads like this.

    The game is less two dimensional but it is not random. I understand why people feel it is random because it is easier to see something black and white rather than notice the grey areas. Then you mix in some bugs and it gets difficult for people to see the difference in the two.

    If someone can take as accurate and as hard of a shot from the same location on the ice regardless of who the player is, their current speed, what they were doing before the shot and angle to the net, it will all seem less random as you can pick the corner on that shot the same every time. However, if you have those aspects, then the skill gap is even bigger. A defender can take those elements into account when thinking about how to play the puck carrier and not let them maximize their potential. If you just look at ever shot taken from the slot as the same chance and don't consider those other elements, it surely will seem random. If you consider all those other elements, you will have a lot more success. Just because you made a tic tac toe passing play, doesn't automatically mean it is a goal. Making those passes increases the chance the goalie will be out of position but everything you did with each of those players before making the final pass is going to have an impact and the angle of the player shooting, where he decides to put the puck on net, if there is a screen, the goalie has to move into the save, etc. all factors in as well.

    Whiffs can be a couple different things. Sometimes it is a lack of coverage so if the pass is to a location they don't have IK range for the shot they need to take from that angle, they can miss. We attempted a fix to play regular pickups in this can and then shoot a wrist shot but it was happening in cases it shouldn't and felt really off hurting one-timers in general. In real life, a player would realize he can't connect, stop the puck with a regular pickup then put a shot on but in our game, the User requests the one timer before they even know if the pass is in a good spot or not. It can also be that the player didn't have enough time (pass too close, too hard, etc.) or it can also have to do with the timing on the controller of the User trying to perform the one timer. It can also be due to the timing from the User -- too early or too late can cause issues. Too early and he is trying to queue up the one timer in a position that may be a bit more awkward for him (again could be lack of coverage in our IK range from that shot angle as well) and too late and he doesn't have enough time to get to the puck with the shots available. The less you rush it, the more success you will have. The ones in your own end are similar. If you are near the boards and don't have the space/leverage to make the shot, he won't be able to connect without a physics solve around the boards causing issues. If you are spinning around at all, it can cause issues because of the loose puck and the timing/consistency of trying to pull that off. So in the end, there are some things in the game that can be cleaned up but it is on the User as well. There are players that don't flub many slapshots or miss many one timers simply because of more calm timing, settled angles from the passer and shooter before attempting them.

    I think what Lynch mentions in the original post are all things that can be looked at to tighten up. We want everyone to feel the game is consistent but I don't believe we want to go back to a more two dimensional game to do so. I understand all the points and know more than anything a lot more of this has to be explained to players as the series taught people for years you just had to do specific high level actions to have success and didn't have as many subtle factors or as harsh of tuning for physical factors.

    when you add an auto animation for everything, the game becomes less about skill and different than what you're talking about.

    we don't have a proper vision control so players are struggling to square their player up causing more whiffs on one-timers. the battle should be timing the one-timer not fighting the controller to get your guy in the position he wants which is literally the easiest thing to do in real life.

    these new seamless puck pickup animations are the worst thing you guys have added into the game since TPS. it literally takes the control out of the user's hand. we should have control of our skater 100% of the time.

    auto right stick deking is another huge flop. accidental controller inputs causing people to get thrown into dekes is not fun and happens to everyone. the skill of the player was nerfed out of that feature when holding LB was no longer required.

    now add online lag to the above and this is why you have an unhappy fanbase. if you want less threads calling your game random, you guys need to figure out a way to get the auto everything out of the game.



  • NHLDev wrote: »
    It is always interesting to read threads like this.

    The game is less two dimensional but it is not random. I understand why people feel it is random because it is easier to see something black and white rather than notice the grey areas. Then you mix in some bugs and it gets difficult for people to see the difference in the two.

    If someone can take as accurate and as hard of a shot from the same location on the ice regardless of who the player is, their current speed, what they were doing before the shot and angle to the net, it will all seem less random as you can pick the corner on that shot the same every time. However, if you have those aspects, then the skill gap is even bigger. A defender can take those elements into account when thinking about how to play the puck carrier and not let them maximize their potential. If you just look at ever shot taken from the slot as the same chance and don't consider those other elements, it surely will seem random. If you consider all those other elements, you will have a lot more success. Just because you made a tic tac toe passing play, doesn't automatically mean it is a goal. Making those passes increases the chance the goalie will be out of position but everything you did with each of those players before making the final pass is going to have an impact and the angle of the player shooting, where he decides to put the puck on net, if there is a screen, the goalie has to move into the save, etc. all factors in as well.

    Whiffs can be a couple different things. Sometimes it is a lack of coverage so if the pass is to a location they don't have IK range for the shot they need to take from that angle, they can miss. We attempted a fix to play regular pickups in this can and then shoot a wrist shot but it was happening in cases it shouldn't and felt really off hurting one-timers in general. In real life, a player would realize he can't connect, stop the puck with a regular pickup then put a shot on but in our game, the User requests the one timer before they even know if the pass is in a good spot or not. It can also be that the player didn't have enough time (pass too close, too hard, etc.) or it can also have to do with the timing on the controller of the User trying to perform the one timer. It can also be due to the timing from the User -- too early or too late can cause issues. Too early and he is trying to queue up the one timer in a position that may be a bit more awkward for him (again could be lack of coverage in our IK range from that shot angle as well) and too late and he doesn't have enough time to get to the puck with the shots available. The less you rush it, the more success you will have. The ones in your own end are similar. If you are near the boards and don't have the space/leverage to make the shot, he won't be able to connect without a physics solve around the boards causing issues. If you are spinning around at all, it can cause issues because of the loose puck and the timing/consistency of trying to pull that off. So in the end, there are some things in the game that can be cleaned up but it is on the User as well. There are players that don't flub many slapshots or miss many one timers simply because of more calm timing, settled angles from the passer and shooter before attempting them.

    I think what Lynch mentions in the original post are all things that can be looked at to tighten up. We want everyone to feel the game is consistent but I don't believe we want to go back to a more two dimensional game to do so. I understand all the points and know more than anything a lot more of this has to be explained to players as the series taught people for years you just had to do specific high level actions to have success and didn't have as many subtle factors or as harsh of tuning for physical factors.

    Thanks for responding and explaining everything you could, it's always appreciated hearing how everything actually works besides speculating.

    It's not only one timers I'm talking about whiffing on though because I do understand why a lot of one timers miss, even on defense when trying to wrap the puck around the boards, it's way harder than it should be to make contact with the puck, you miss more than half the time you try.

    A lot of small things, make a big problem. I can't put an exact culprit to the noose in this game but sometimes it just feels like the game is working against you. I think this is where your most hated word comes into play, ice tilt.

    Now I know you guys say it's not real and I'll have to accept that because I can't prove it isn't, but this game breeds conspiracy due to the randomness of everything, my last game today ( understandably ) my team had 10 shots to their 4 and an advantage by 2 mins in the zone and over double the faceoff wins too in the first period, we were dominating the game, and losing 3-0. This guy toe drags the puck a foot above the circle and scores 3 out of 4 shots... now I know you can't do anything about that because you would of obviously but it's a glitch shot and at the very least you could make it so actual legit high quality shots have a chance of beating the goalie. That happened before the 15 min mark of the first, and we quit because we knew a 3 goal deficit against an AI goalie was next to impossible to beat with 2s.

    Every year it just feels like it's less and less up to the people playing the game, it feels pre-determined.
    My first game we won today, our AI played incredible, scored 2 of our 4 goals, the next game, abysmal... they couldn't make a simple break out pass with players wide open. Goalies are the same, some times they put on a clinic against a better team that's getting great shots, other games the let in 3 goals in 4 shots...

    I would just like to see a little consistency put back into the game, I know if its too consistent that there will be glitch shots but there already is, it would at least be good to know where to defend, if I get scored on I want it to be bad defense, not a pass from the red line or a dump shot from the point. If human goalies were actually capable of making the most basic of saves the would be a great option, but as is we're stuck with AI goalies. Hopefully in 18 they are a little more consistent and might save the exact shot taken 4 times in a row more than once.

    In the Nhl that you guys are making it just feels like sh***y shots and lazy plays win the day. Why make a beautiful cycling play when you can take 20 weak wrist shots from the point to win the game? This game is just beating the competitiveness out of me because it doesn't feel like it matters how good you are anymore.
  • Alright you pansies. I want you to listen and listen good ..err I mean well...Err I mean gooder for the grammar **** who believe everyone is not in a hurry when they type and believe everyones typing on a laptop.

    The rookie Ben is right. He hit the nail on the head when he said everyone wants things black and white.

    Here is the harsh you reality. Are you ready? Go get your big boy pants and actually listen:

    Most of you are used to the old nhl days. There is actually more skill required this year to pull off consistent rewarding plays.

    What's crazy is most of you claim to be hockey fans. Please pick an nhl game ...any nhl game and actually watch and dissect it.

    NOTICE players bobble passes, don't even attempt shots on poor passes. Settle puck. BE IN A CONTROLLED STATE. Pass it back to passer to readjust themselves and open themselves back up when they feel they will have optimal power on shot.

    I could go on and on. A lot of people really blow at passing which might be the biggest culprit as to why you're whiffing.

    I just see it and hear it all the time of blaming the game. Especially when I pick D and watch how many hockey errors I see the offense make.Everyone just needs to settle down and stop trying to make plays at 100mph an hour.

    The single biggest problem with this game are the horrendous connection problems and right behind that is tps needs tightening .


  • Lynch-CAN wrote: »
    This guy toe drags the puck a foot above the circle and scores 3 out of 4 shots... now I know you can't do anything about that because you would of obviously but it's a glitch shot and at the very least you could make it so actual legit high quality shots have a chance of beating the goalie.

    Agree with all of your post but I quoted the following because I also wanted to address that particular scenario for the devs. Now we know glitch goals are always going to exist in the hockey series, there is just no way around that. But, this is why we have to be allowed 100% control on defense to try and counter that.

    So, if we face someone we know is going to a certain spot on the ice, our best defense is to take that spot away. But, as the game is currently constructed, what happens is occasionally you can't switch players or your AI is coasting off into some odd direction, so what happens is the game GIVES that guy the spot he wanted and there is nothing you can do about it.

    Broken puck pick-ups is another major offender. So let's say you lay a big hit on that same guy but then all of the sudden, the player who dished out the hit is not allowed to pick the puck up. Now, that guy gets up, grabs the puck, and goes to his glitch goal spot and scores. Once more, you are screwed by game mechanics over user skill. Instead of rewarding good defense in that scenario, the game just punished it.

    Scenarios like that are common throughout the game. You can even replace the glitch-goal player with some random Joe player in all of those scenarios and it still leads you to being put at a disadvantage suddenly by the game itself.

  • I think it's hard to not have random stuff happen in the game. If we knew the outcomes of things more often then we'd take less chances on lots of things. I do also agree that some stuff is way too random in many cases that makes you feel like the game is out to get you.

    I do feel the broken stick and fanning on open slapshots when not even in an awkward spot happen a bit too much.
  • You don't want to go back to a "two-dimensional" game, but every single long-time player is begging you to do so.

    I don't simply mean take attributes out of it. Attributes have been in the game for a number of years, and there's no doubt the game used to play much better than it does now. You're simply using attributes for every little aspect of the game when they don't need to be. If I'm playing online and I make a good breakout pass, I don't want the game to decide my guy doesn't have the hands to take it. If I tic-tac-toe at one end only to be stoned, the RNG shouldn't decide my goalie is about to give up a weak wrister from the blue line at the other end.

    It's cool that you're on the latest hardware and you can, in real time, account for a plethora of attributes in every little situation. The game suffers from doing this, though. We've all been saying it for years.

    Simple solution: Have a second online mode where it's purely skill versus skill. If I make a good breakout pass, my guy shouldn't miss it because of "attributes." If I'm in a bad position for a pokecheck, I should get a tripping call. I shouldn't get the poke from behind simply because I'm Sidney Crosby.

    The fun we used to have with this game is completely washed out by overuse of attributes and over-calculating every tiny situation. It just ends up a complete random mess where skill no longer means anything. The dev philosophy is completely wrong. Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you SHOULD.
  • T0ph3rrr wrote: »
    Attributes have been in the game for a number of years, and there's no doubt the game used to play much better than it does now. You're simply using attributes for every little aspect of the game when they don't need to be.

    Simple solution: Have a second online mode where it's purely skill versus skill. If I make a good breakout pass, my guy shouldn't miss it because of "attributes." If I'm in a bad position for a pokecheck, I should get a tripping call. I shouldn't get the poke from behind simply because I'm Sidney Crosby.

    A lot of the issues people are talking about don't have anything to do with attributes, though. The whiffing on the easy D-to-D passes isn't because of attributes -- my defensemen all have passing, hand-eye, and shooting attributes that are 94+, and they still whiff all the time. It's an issue with the way the game is coded, not attributes.
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