Funny when I consider that on pc a few years back, anything under 90ms for ping was MORE than playable. It was in fact, still pretty smooth. NHL you get gimped at even 15ms....
Quake, Unreal Tournament... etc do not require the calculations used in hockey. Apples/Oranges.
Oh please. 64 vs 64 with destructible environments. Think that has less calculations than garbage physics on a puck??
This again? Get over it already - FPS and Hockey are different. That discussion is over. If you want to keep debating and arguing over that, then head elsewhere to do it.
Roflmao, said like a true ea dev, even though you aren't and just a forum mod, even though numerous posts of people admitting to cheating are posted and you do nothing about that, but you sure can defend nonsense...
As said lag is lag , a delay is a delay, you can't win face offs , fights, time a save, time a deke, time a hit, time a poke, nothing if you aren't in sync with the other players you are at a serious disadvantage, anyone who says otherwise is a complete moron and should shake their head, please don't shake out the last bit of common sense you may have though...
And it's funny for honor is being hated in for using peer to peer... The lag is apparently very noticeable in that game and ruining alot of players experiences . Sound familiar?
I understand the frustration, but it is apples and oranges.
Exactly.
I'm not going to go over this debate again. It happened last year and I provided mountains of evidence outlining the difference between FPS/Hockey online connectivity. I don't need to provide this information again in a debate that is as one-sided as this; the members of this community who think FPS/Hockey are exactly the same will always think that, regardless of what evidence is provided.
You realize that your argument makes EA look worse, not better, right? Let's accept that FPS and Hockey are very different games, and that therefore lag has a much bigger impact on Hockey than it does on FPS games. The logical implication, then, is that it's EA's responsibility to invest significantly more in connectivity -- more dedicated servers, matchmaking, better net code, etc. -- since it knows that levels of lag that are acceptable in other games aren't acceptable in Hockey.
Instead, what do we get? We get EA using P2P for its most popular modes, effectively guaranteeing that people playing those modes are going to have a frustrating experience much of the time. We get too few dedicated servers for team modes. We get crappy matchmaking in both EASHL and 1v1 modes. And then we get EA's Twitter account telling people who complain about lag that the game requires "a stable connection," without ever acknowledging that most of the time, the reason the connection is unstable is because of choices EA made. And the most telling fact of all is that lag issues have been much much worse in the new-gen game than they were for the last-gen one. Things have been degenerating instead of getting better, and EA has done nothing about it.
You realize that your argument makes EA look worse, not better, right? Let's accept that FPS and Hockey are very different games, and that therefore lag has a much bigger impact on Hockey than it does on FPS games. The logical implication, then, is that it's EA's responsibility to invest significantly more in connectivity -- more dedicated servers, matchmaking, better net code, etc. -- since it knows that levels of lag that are acceptable in other games aren't acceptable in Hockey.
Instead, what do we get? We get EA using P2P for its most popular modes, effectively guaranteeing that people playing those modes are going to have a frustrating experience much of the time. We get too few dedicated servers for team modes. We get **** matchmaking in both EASHL and 1v1 modes. And then we get EA's Twitter account telling people who complain about lag that the game requires "a stable connection," without ever acknowledging that most of the time, the reason the connection is unstable is because of choices EA made. And the most telling fact of all is that lag issues have been much much worse in the new-gen game than they were for the last-gen one. Things have been degenerating instead of getting better, and EA has done nothing about it.
For pass pick ups, if your connection is a bit slow, does that mean the game may not recognize you are in position to receive the puck and not let you pick up the puck ? Would the same be for goalies, the game doesn't recognize you are in position so no animation is made and the puck goes right by , or your goalie just reacts late ? Does this mean you can go for a poke but the other player already pulled his stick back, something your slower connection wouldn't let you see and you get a tripping penalty? ... I can keep going on, and assume I am right... Explain how that's not a major issue ? Doesn't that take away from the challenge, and the fun , but that's not an issue now is it, because this isn't an fps ... Sigh ... I love ea logic.
And it's funny for honor is being hated in for using peer to peer... The lag is apparently very noticeable in that game and ruining alot of players experiences . Sound familiar?
Don't know what game you're talking about, but For Honor runs fine. It had launch issues like many games do, but it's perfectly fine now, even with P2P.
So what is ea's plan to fix this problem? Or is this just another issue that gets swept under the rug like other game breaking issues? For example dsynch glitch.
Funny the mods of this board are quick to jump down posters throats (sometimes deserved) but we are shelling out 60 bucks every year, we reserve the right to complain about a product that is not up to par with industry standards. Fix your net code, plain and simple. If the people you have employed can't accomplish it, hire people who can. This can apply to all the broken features in your game.
Funny when I consider that on pc a few years back, anything under 90ms for ping was MORE than playable. It was in fact, still pretty smooth. NHL you get gimped at even 15ms....
Quake, Unreal Tournament... etc do not require the calculations used in hockey. Apples/Oranges.
Can you provide references to articles from trusted sources in the field of expertise who explain this? or perhaps your own credentials?
Already have.
In other threads.
Over and over again.
I understand the frustration, but it is apples and oranges.
Lag is lag
NHL is experiencing a form of lag that kills the gameplay
Lag in fps kill the game
Apples to apples.
Anyways, you can use games like rocket league as reference or what about mobas? i mean, at some point you are just fishing for excuses to dismiss the problem. Im not sure why though?>
yes, to the end user I get it - "lag is lag".
however, comparing this game to FPS is not apples / apples.
FPS can use methods such as histscans, cones... basically ray cast. With that you can get client side predictability that enables you to mitigate the impact of less than desirable latency.
using these methods (i.e. ray cast) you can use simple math to calculate whether or not you hit the target and it's linear. so, on the client side, you can predict if you hit the target or not and trigger animation or impacts of the event on the client side.
in this game, hockey, you have up to 12 consoles + 1 object that is supposed to be impacted in a natural way by physics and it's path is supposed to not be predetermined... meaning non-linear.
all that information has to be exchanged, in sync, with up to 12 consoles.
with all the the animations, the moves upon moves both offensively and defensively... all these moves from stick lifts to stick sweeps in what direction to what degree did it hit the random object if so what path should it take and on and on and on, I would imagine that client side predictability for this hockey game would either be minimal when compared to FPS or non-existent.
what about games such as rocket league and dota and so on?
I mean, I understand that the code cannot be 100% the same but some setups are the same. p2p is p2p and server based connection is server based.
heck, based on what you and Cory are saying, there are SOO many more interactions to capture...it almost sounds like they should have WAY more servers to handle all the processing? No? Why is there less?
At the end of the day, its all excuses. I dont believe in excuses, I believe in solutions. And the more people vent their frustrations with the current setup, the more motivated the devs will be to find "cure"
So what is ea's plan to fix this problem? Or is this just another issue that gets swept under the rug like other game breaking issues? For example dsynch glitch.
Funny the mods of this board are quick to jump down posters throats (sometimes deserved) but we are shelling out 60 bucks every year, we reserve the right to complain about a product that is not up to par with industry standards. Fix your net code, plain and simple. If the people you have employed can't accomplish it, hire people who can. This can apply to all the broken features in your game.
Make nhl great again!
You absolutely have a right to voice an opinion.
However, lately, members of this community are rather hostile in their feedback - and there's no need for that.
All we ask is that you're constructive. Especially when the online producer came in to answer questions, some users didn't get the response they wanted and just continued to argue.
We're not here to argue. Just be constructive and have conversations that have substance. The past few weeks have seen GREAT discussions fall apart in to name calling.
I only saw hostility coming from you here. Thats the main reason I stepped in to add my thoughts. it seems to me like a healthy discussion. Sure, its a recurring topic. Sure, for Honor is not NHL. But this is nevertheless a reminder that people are unhappy with the current setup.
I didnt really see much fighting. Being hostile probably not the best way to help reduce hostility. In fact, people, including me, have been very reasonable in their responses to you despite the slap in the face you handed.
That being said, a lot of people are getting less patient with EA because they spend a lot of money to play their game and they dont feel like EA is spending equivalent money to improve the problematic areas.
Funny when I consider that on pc a few years back, anything under 90ms for ping was MORE than playable. It was in fact, still pretty smooth. NHL you get gimped at even 15ms....
Quake, Unreal Tournament... etc do not require the calculations used in hockey. Apples/Oranges.
Can you provide references to articles from trusted sources in the field of expertise who explain this? or perhaps your own credentials?
Already have.
In other threads.
Over and over again.
I understand the frustration, but it is apples and oranges.
Lag is lag
NHL is experiencing a form of lag that kills the gameplay
Lag in fps kill the game
Apples to apples.
Anyways, you can use games like rocket league as reference or what about mobas? i mean, at some point you are just fishing for excuses to dismiss the problem. Im not sure why though?>
yes, to the end user I get it - "lag is lag".
however, comparing this game to FPS is not apples / apples.
FPS can use methods such as histscans, cones... basically ray cast. With that you can get client side predictability that enables you to mitigate the impact of less than desirable latency.
using these methods (i.e. ray cast) you can use simple math to calculate whether or not you hit the target and it's linear. so, on the client side, you can predict if you hit the target or not and trigger animation or impacts of the event on the client side.
in this game, hockey, you have up to 12 consoles + 1 object that is supposed to be impacted in a natural way by physics and it's path is supposed to not be predetermined... meaning non-linear.
all that information has to be exchanged, in sync, with up to 12 consoles.
with all the the animations, the moves upon moves both offensively and defensively... all these moves from stick lifts to stick sweeps in what direction to what degree did it hit the random object if so what path should it take and on and on and on, I would imagine that client side predictability for this hockey game would either be minimal when compared to FPS or non-existent.
what about games such as rocket league and dota and so on?
I mean, I understand that the code cannot be 100% the same but some setups are the same. p2p is p2p and server based connection is server based.
heck, based on what you and Cory are saying, there are SOO many more interactions to capture...it almost sounds like they should have WAY more servers to handle all the processing? No? Why is there less?
At the end of the day, its all excuses. I dont believe in excuses, I believe in solutions. And the more people vent their frustrations with the current setup, the more motivated the devs will be to find "cure"
There are a lot more interactions on NHL between the 12 skaters, the puck, the sticks, and anything else compared to say rocket league where the ball just smacks off a certain face of your car model..which i imagine they try and keep mostly square.
Another consequence of the decision to rely on P2P for all 1v1 modes is that it enables cheating. Desyncing, IP booting, IP flooding: none of these work when you're playing on a dedicated server. So if you're going to rely on a P2P system (because it's cheaper, and because if you do the matchmaking right, in theory you can minimize lag), you need to be religious about rooting out cheating and doing all you can to minimize the possible ways to cheat.
Here, again, EA has totally fallen down on the job -- desyncing has been a problem since NHL 11, and after being out of the game last year, is back in full force this year, and EA can't fix it and won't take any steps (like limiting the number of times you can pull the goalie, or handing you a loss if you commit too many penalties in a period) to prevent it. IP booting, meanwhile, remains a serious problem, particularly in HUT. One obvious way to deal this would be for EA to monitor game outcomes, and ban players who rack up DNF Win after DNF Win. Again, no evidence that they're doing this.
In the game I just played, the first period ended, and then instead of going to the menu, it just did this over and over, until I finally quit after 10 minutes or so:
Every game on that list ended after 20 minutes in a 3-0 DNF Win for him. (And you'll notice that the player he victimized right before me was this board's own Cogsx86.) I think it's obvious what EA should have done to this guy a long time ago. But he's been happily racking up those DNF Wins (enabled by the decision to use P2P) without any interference at all.
Funny when I consider that on pc a few years back, anything under 90ms for ping was MORE than playable. It was in fact, still pretty smooth. NHL you get gimped at even 15ms....
Quake, Unreal Tournament... etc do not require the calculations used in hockey. Apples/Oranges.
Can you provide references to articles from trusted sources in the field of expertise who explain this? or perhaps your own credentials?
Already have.
In other threads.
Over and over again.
I understand the frustration, but it is apples and oranges.
Lag is lag
NHL is experiencing a form of lag that kills the gameplay
Lag in fps kill the game
Apples to apples.
Anyways, you can use games like rocket league as reference or what about mobas? i mean, at some point you are just fishing for excuses to dismiss the problem. Im not sure why though?>
yes, to the end user I get it - "lag is lag".
however, comparing this game to FPS is not apples / apples.
FPS can use methods such as histscans, cones... basically ray cast. With that you can get client side predictability that enables you to mitigate the impact of less than desirable latency.
using these methods (i.e. ray cast) you can use simple math to calculate whether or not you hit the target and it's linear. so, on the client side, you can predict if you hit the target or not and trigger animation or impacts of the event on the client side.
in this game, hockey, you have up to 12 consoles + 1 object that is supposed to be impacted in a natural way by physics and it's path is supposed to not be predetermined... meaning non-linear.
all that information has to be exchanged, in sync, with up to 12 consoles.
with all the the animations, the moves upon moves both offensively and defensively... all these moves from stick lifts to stick sweeps in what direction to what degree did it hit the random object if so what path should it take and on and on and on, I would imagine that client side predictability for this hockey game would either be minimal when compared to FPS or non-existent.
what about games such as rocket league and dota and so on?
I mean, I understand that the code cannot be 100% the same but some setups are the same. p2p is p2p and server based connection is server based.
heck, based on what you and Cory are saying, there are SOO many more interactions to capture...it almost sounds like they should have WAY more servers to handle all the processing? No? Why is there less?
At the end of the day, its all excuses. I dont believe in excuses, I believe in solutions. And the more people vent their frustrations with the current setup, the more motivated the devs will be to find "cure"
There are a lot more interactions on NHL between the 12 skaters, the puck, the sticks, and anything else compared to say rocket league where the ball just smacks off a certain face of your car model..which i imagine they try and keep mostly square.
Lets face it, this whole "this is different" argument solves nothing and proves nothing. Unless I bring up another hockey game as an example, you will be able to discard a comparison using x differences.
But more interactions does not necessarily mean that its that much more difficult to make it work. Computers can process billions of operations per second. I mean, you make it sound like more operation is an impossible task to achieve. It may be more challenging but its certainly possible. It may even be easy depending on how much money you are willing to throw at it.
I think we all realize that the connectivity could be a lot smoother with more servers but that cost a lot of money, and despite making more and more profit each year thanks to HUT, servers are not being added.
Funny when I consider that on pc a few years back, anything under 90ms for ping was MORE than playable. It was in fact, still pretty smooth. NHL you get gimped at even 15ms....
Quake, Unreal Tournament... etc do not require the calculations used in hockey. Apples/Oranges.
Can you provide references to articles from trusted sources in the field of expertise who explain this? or perhaps your own credentials?
Already have.
In other threads.
Over and over again.
I understand the frustration, but it is apples and oranges.
Lag is lag
NHL is experiencing a form of lag that kills the gameplay
Lag in fps kill the game
Apples to apples.
Anyways, you can use games like rocket league as reference or what about mobas? i mean, at some point you are just fishing for excuses to dismiss the problem. Im not sure why though?>
yes, to the end user I get it - "lag is lag".
however, comparing this game to FPS is not apples / apples.
FPS can use methods such as histscans, cones... basically ray cast. With that you can get client side predictability that enables you to mitigate the impact of less than desirable latency.
using these methods (i.e. ray cast) you can use simple math to calculate whether or not you hit the target and it's linear. so, on the client side, you can predict if you hit the target or not and trigger animation or impacts of the event on the client side.
in this game, hockey, you have up to 12 consoles + 1 object that is supposed to be impacted in a natural way by physics and it's path is supposed to not be predetermined... meaning non-linear.
all that information has to be exchanged, in sync, with up to 12 consoles.
with all the the animations, the moves upon moves both offensively and defensively... all these moves from stick lifts to stick sweeps in what direction to what degree did it hit the random object if so what path should it take and on and on and on, I would imagine that client side predictability for this hockey game would either be minimal when compared to FPS or non-existent.
what about games such as rocket league and dota and so on?
I mean, I understand that the code cannot be 100% the same but some setups are the same. p2p is p2p and server based connection is server based.
heck, based on what you and Cory are saying, there are SOO many more interactions to capture...it almost sounds like they should have WAY more servers to handle all the processing? No? Why is there less?
At the end of the day, its all excuses. I dont believe in excuses, I believe in solutions. And the more people vent their frustrations with the current setup, the more motivated the devs will be to find "cure"
There are a lot more interactions on NHL between the 12 skaters, the puck, the sticks, and anything else compared to say rocket league where the ball just smacks off a certain face of your car model..which i imagine they try and keep mostly square.
Lets face it, this whole "this is different" argument solves nothing and proves nothing. Unless I bring up another hockey game as an example, you will be able to discard a comparison using x differences.
But more interactions does not necessarily mean that its that much more difficult to make it work. Computers can process billions of operations per second. I mean, you make it sound like more operation is an impossible task to achieve. It may be more challenging but its certainly possible. It may even be easy depending on how much money you are willing to throw at it.
I think we all realize that the connectivity could be a lot smoother with more servers but that cost a lot of money, and despite making more and more profit each year thanks to HUT, servers are not being added.
Do you have any idea what it costs to design and maintain a dedicated server location?
(And no, you can't use Hillary Clinton's email server in a bathroom as an example)
And it's not a one time costs thing. It's reoccurring costs to vendors, access providers and data centers for the space.
Your second paragraph indicates you don't understand how this stuff works and yet you have simple solutions.
Yes. I get it. It's not perfect.
And yes. I get it. There is a solution for just about every problem out there.
But at the end of the day, EAs cost expenditure would go up and that isn't up to this hockey dev team.
As it is, some are more impacted than others and companies dont make this kind of investment without proper justification.
But look, I am all for venting frustration. But guys really need to stop acting like this game's even comparable to rocket car games and FPS.
Do you have any idea what it costs to design and maintain a dedicated server location?
(And no, you can't use Hillary Clinton's email server in a bathroom as an example)
And it's not a one time costs thing. It's reoccurring costs to vendors, access providers and data centers for the space.
Obviously EA wouldn't maintain the servers itself. It would outsource them, just as it did with Azure for Titanfall and now with Multiplay with Titanfall 2. (And it's not like Titanfall is some hugely lucrative game.) Running dedicated servers is much easier -- and cheaper -- than it once was. And yes, adding more servers would be more expensive than not adding them, but it would also go a long way to mitigate people's frustrations with EASHL, strengthen the NHL brand, and improve the chances that people will continue to buy this game in the future.
There's a limit to how many corners you can cut, and EA might be nearing the limit with these series. Think of how many regular commenters on this board have vanished, or no longer play much at all. You can't build a game that's dependent on low latency in order to work well and then not invest in the necessary infastructure so that people can actually play the game with low latency. Or rather, you can do that, but then what you end up with is what EA has now with this series: lots and lots of unhappy customers. (And I'm not talking about this board -- look at EA's Twitter feed or its Facebook page for real vitriolic criticism.)
Do you have any idea what it costs to design and maintain a dedicated server location?
(And no, you can't use Hillary Clinton's email server in a bathroom as an example)
And it's not a one time costs thing. It's reoccurring costs to vendors, access providers and data centers for the space.
Obviously EA wouldn't maintain the servers itself. It would outsource them, just as it did with Azure for Titanfall and now with Multiplay with Titanfall 2. (And it's not like Titanfall is some hugely lucrative game.) Running dedicated servers is much easier -- and cheaper -- than it once was. And yes, adding more servers would be more expensive than not adding them, but it would also go a long way to mitigate people's frustrations with EASHL, strengthen the NHL brand, and improve the chances that people will continue to buy this game in the future.
There's a limit to how many corners you can cut, and EA might be nearing the limit with these series. Think of how many regular commenters on this board have vanished, or no longer play much at all. You can't build a game that's dependent on low latency in order to work well and then not invest in the necessary infastructure so that people can actually play the game with low latency. Or rather, you can do that, but then what you end up with is what EA has now with this series: lots and lots of unhappy customers. (And I'm not talking about this board -- look at EA's Twitter feed or its Facebook page for real vitriolic criticism.)
Yes understood on the first part and i dont disagree with your comment at all.
I just know how companies aren't gonna move on a project like that until they hit that wall to where they are losing money over it.
Funny when I consider that on pc a few years back, anything under 90ms for ping was MORE than playable. It was in fact, still pretty smooth. NHL you get gimped at even 15ms....
Quake, Unreal Tournament... etc do not require the calculations used in hockey. Apples/Oranges.
Can you provide references to articles from trusted sources in the field of expertise who explain this? or perhaps your own credentials?
Already have.
In other threads.
Over and over again.
I understand the frustration, but it is apples and oranges.
Lag is lag
NHL is experiencing a form of lag that kills the gameplay
Lag in fps kill the game
Apples to apples.
Anyways, you can use games like rocket league as reference or what about mobas? i mean, at some point you are just fishing for excuses to dismiss the problem. Im not sure why though?>
yes, to the end user I get it - "lag is lag".
however, comparing this game to FPS is not apples / apples.
FPS can use methods such as histscans, cones... basically ray cast. With that you can get client side predictability that enables you to mitigate the impact of less than desirable latency.
using these methods (i.e. ray cast) you can use simple math to calculate whether or not you hit the target and it's linear. so, on the client side, you can predict if you hit the target or not and trigger animation or impacts of the event on the client side.
in this game, hockey, you have up to 12 consoles + 1 object that is supposed to be impacted in a natural way by physics and it's path is supposed to not be predetermined... meaning non-linear.
all that information has to be exchanged, in sync, with up to 12 consoles.
with all the the animations, the moves upon moves both offensively and defensively... all these moves from stick lifts to stick sweeps in what direction to what degree did it hit the random object if so what path should it take and on and on and on, I would imagine that client side predictability for this hockey game would either be minimal when compared to FPS or non-existent.
what about games such as rocket league and dota and so on?
I mean, I understand that the code cannot be 100% the same but some setups are the same. p2p is p2p and server based connection is server based.
heck, based on what you and Cory are saying, there are SOO many more interactions to capture...it almost sounds like they should have WAY more servers to handle all the processing? No? Why is there less?
At the end of the day, its all excuses. I dont believe in excuses, I believe in solutions. And the more people vent their frustrations with the current setup, the more motivated the devs will be to find "cure"
There are a lot more interactions on NHL between the 12 skaters, the puck, the sticks, and anything else compared to say rocket league where the ball just smacks off a certain face of your car model..which i imagine they try and keep mostly square.
Lets face it, this whole "this is different" argument solves nothing and proves nothing. Unless I bring up another hockey game as an example, you will be able to discard a comparison using x differences.
But more interactions does not necessarily mean that its that much more difficult to make it work. Computers can process billions of operations per second. I mean, you make it sound like more operation is an impossible task to achieve. It may be more challenging but its certainly possible. It may even be easy depending on how much money you are willing to throw at it.
I think we all realize that the connectivity could be a lot smoother with more servers but that cost a lot of money, and despite making more and more profit each year thanks to HUT, servers are not being added.
Do you have any idea what it costs to design and maintain a dedicated server location?
(And no, you can't use Hillary Clinton's email server in a bathroom as an example)
And it's not a one time costs thing. It's reoccurring costs to vendors, access providers and data centers for the space.
Your second paragraph indicates you don't understand how this stuff works and yet you have simple solutions.
Yes. I get it. It's not perfect.
And yes. I get it. There is a solution for just about every problem out there.
But at the end of the day, EAs cost expenditure would go up and that isn't up to this hockey dev team.
As it is, some are more impacted than others and companies dont make this kind of investment without proper justification.
But look, I am all for venting frustration. But guys really need to stop acting like this game's even comparable to rocket car games and FPS.
Do you have any idea how much profit EA makes with NHL series? I mean cost to profit ratios that is. They are killing it with hut and by selling the same recycled game for full price every year. Who else in the gaming industry has the luxury of Reselling the same game over and over and over each year with a skeleton crew working on updates for that price? Its quite literally one of the best investment to return ratio in the industry. So yah, people expect that they can invest SOME of that profit in improving their network architecture to support the fans they are milking each year.
Not sure how you can defend EA for this practice. I can defend the employees like Ben who clearly want the game to succeed but are faced with limitations in resources but I cannot excuse EA for their juicing the market until it dies.
Funny when I consider that on pc a few years back, anything under 90ms for ping was MORE than playable. It was in fact, still pretty smooth. NHL you get gimped at even 15ms....
Quake, Unreal Tournament... etc do not require the calculations used in hockey. Apples/Oranges.
Can you provide references to articles from trusted sources in the field of expertise who explain this? or perhaps your own credentials?
Already have.
In other threads.
Over and over again.
I understand the frustration, but it is apples and oranges.
Lag is lag
NHL is experiencing a form of lag that kills the gameplay
Lag in fps kill the game
Apples to apples.
Anyways, you can use games like rocket league as reference or what about mobas? i mean, at some point you are just fishing for excuses to dismiss the problem. Im not sure why though?>
yes, to the end user I get it - "lag is lag".
however, comparing this game to FPS is not apples / apples.
FPS can use methods such as histscans, cones... basically ray cast. With that you can get client side predictability that enables you to mitigate the impact of less than desirable latency.
using these methods (i.e. ray cast) you can use simple math to calculate whether or not you hit the target and it's linear. so, on the client side, you can predict if you hit the target or not and trigger animation or impacts of the event on the client side.
in this game, hockey, you have up to 12 consoles + 1 object that is supposed to be impacted in a natural way by physics and it's path is supposed to not be predetermined... meaning non-linear.
all that information has to be exchanged, in sync, with up to 12 consoles.
with all the the animations, the moves upon moves both offensively and defensively... all these moves from stick lifts to stick sweeps in what direction to what degree did it hit the random object if so what path should it take and on and on and on, I would imagine that client side predictability for this hockey game would either be minimal when compared to FPS or non-existent.
what about games such as rocket league and dota and so on?
I mean, I understand that the code cannot be 100% the same but some setups are the same. p2p is p2p and server based connection is server based.
heck, based on what you and Cory are saying, there are SOO many more interactions to capture...it almost sounds like they should have WAY more servers to handle all the processing? No? Why is there less?
At the end of the day, its all excuses. I dont believe in excuses, I believe in solutions. And the more people vent their frustrations with the current setup, the more motivated the devs will be to find "cure"
There are a lot more interactions on NHL between the 12 skaters, the puck, the sticks, and anything else compared to say rocket league where the ball just smacks off a certain face of your car model..which i imagine they try and keep mostly square.
Lets face it, this whole "this is different" argument solves nothing and proves nothing. Unless I bring up another hockey game as an example, you will be able to discard a comparison using x differences.
But more interactions does not necessarily mean that its that much more difficult to make it work. Computers can process billions of operations per second. I mean, you make it sound like more operation is an impossible task to achieve. It may be more challenging but its certainly possible. It may even be easy depending on how much money you are willing to throw at it.
I think we all realize that the connectivity could be a lot smoother with more servers but that cost a lot of money, and despite making more and more profit each year thanks to HUT, servers are not being added.
Do you have any idea what it costs to design and maintain a dedicated server location?
(And no, you can't use Hillary Clinton's email server in a bathroom as an example)
And it's not a one time costs thing. It's reoccurring costs to vendors, access providers and data centers for the space.
Your second paragraph indicates you don't understand how this stuff works and yet you have simple solutions.
Yes. I get it. It's not perfect.
And yes. I get it. There is a solution for just about every problem out there.
But at the end of the day, EAs cost expenditure would go up and that isn't up to this hockey dev team.
As it is, some are more impacted than others and companies dont make this kind of investment without proper justification.
But look, I am all for venting frustration. But guys really need to stop acting like this game's even comparable to rocket car games and FPS.
Because ea isn't a multi billion dollar company, and can't afford it, that's right ... Because the nhl franchise hasn't been out for more than 20 years and ea can't put a bit of the profits aside for better servers ?
The fact is ea don't care about their customers or community... Every division of ea sucks... You want proof of this, how long has ea not cared about players taking advantage of disconnect losses. Because they have our money, and will get it again next game.
Funny when I consider that on pc a few years back, anything under 90ms for ping was MORE than playable. It was in fact, still pretty smooth. NHL you get gimped at even 15ms....
Quake, Unreal Tournament... etc do not require the calculations used in hockey. Apples/Oranges.
Can you provide references to articles from trusted sources in the field of expertise who explain this? or perhaps your own credentials?
Already have.
In other threads.
Over and over again.
I understand the frustration, but it is apples and oranges.
Lag is lag
NHL is experiencing a form of lag that kills the gameplay
Lag in fps kill the game
Apples to apples.
Anyways, you can use games like rocket league as reference or what about mobas? i mean, at some point you are just fishing for excuses to dismiss the problem. Im not sure why though?>
yes, to the end user I get it - "lag is lag".
however, comparing this game to FPS is not apples / apples.
FPS can use methods such as histscans, cones... basically ray cast. With that you can get client side predictability that enables you to mitigate the impact of less than desirable latency.
using these methods (i.e. ray cast) you can use simple math to calculate whether or not you hit the target and it's linear. so, on the client side, you can predict if you hit the target or not and trigger animation or impacts of the event on the client side.
in this game, hockey, you have up to 12 consoles + 1 object that is supposed to be impacted in a natural way by physics and it's path is supposed to not be predetermined... meaning non-linear.
all that information has to be exchanged, in sync, with up to 12 consoles.
with all the the animations, the moves upon moves both offensively and defensively... all these moves from stick lifts to stick sweeps in what direction to what degree did it hit the random object if so what path should it take and on and on and on, I would imagine that client side predictability for this hockey game would either be minimal when compared to FPS or non-existent.
what about games such as rocket league and dota and so on?
I mean, I understand that the code cannot be 100% the same but some setups are the same. p2p is p2p and server based connection is server based.
heck, based on what you and Cory are saying, there are SOO many more interactions to capture...it almost sounds like they should have WAY more servers to handle all the processing? No? Why is there less?
At the end of the day, its all excuses. I dont believe in excuses, I believe in solutions. And the more people vent their frustrations with the current setup, the more motivated the devs will be to find "cure"
There are a lot more interactions on NHL between the 12 skaters, the puck, the sticks, and anything else compared to say rocket league where the ball just smacks off a certain face of your car model..which i imagine they try and keep mostly square.
Lets face it, this whole "this is different" argument solves nothing and proves nothing. Unless I bring up another hockey game as an example, you will be able to discard a comparison using x differences.
But more interactions does not necessarily mean that its that much more difficult to make it work. Computers can process billions of operations per second. I mean, you make it sound like more operation is an impossible task to achieve. It may be more challenging but its certainly possible. It may even be easy depending on how much money you are willing to throw at it.
I think we all realize that the connectivity could be a lot smoother with more servers but that cost a lot of money, and despite making more and more profit each year thanks to HUT, servers are not being added.
Do you have any idea what it costs to design and maintain a dedicated server location?
(And no, you can't use Hillary Clinton's email server in a bathroom as an example)
And it's not a one time costs thing. It's reoccurring costs to vendors, access providers and data centers for the space.
Your second paragraph indicates you don't understand how this stuff works and yet you have simple solutions.
Yes. I get it. It's not perfect.
And yes. I get it. There is a solution for just about every problem out there.
But at the end of the day, EAs cost expenditure would go up and that isn't up to this hockey dev team.
As it is, some are more impacted than others and companies dont make this kind of investment without proper justification.
But look, I am all for venting frustration. But guys really need to stop acting like this game's even comparable to rocket car games and FPS.
Do you have any idea how much profit EA makes with NHL series? I mean cost to profit ratios that is. They are killing it with hut and by selling the same recycled game for full price every year. Who else in the gaming industry has the luxury of Reselling the same game over and over and over each year with a skeleton crew working on updates for that price? Its quite literally one of the best investment to return ratio in the industry. So yah, people expect that they can invest SOME of that profit in improving their network architecture to support the fans they are milking each year.
Not sure how you can defend EA for this practice. I can defend the employees like Ben who clearly want the game to succeed but are faced with limitations in resources but I cannot excuse EA for their juicing the market until it dies.
yeah but...
i'm not defending them.
I, along with everyone else (I imagine) that lives along the coast(s) experience what you do and yes it's a disadvantage when you are playing on an opposite coast server.
Funny when I consider that on pc a few years back, anything under 90ms for ping was MORE than playable. It was in fact, still pretty smooth. NHL you get gimped at even 15ms....
Quake, Unreal Tournament... etc do not require the calculations used in hockey. Apples/Oranges.
Can you provide references to articles from trusted sources in the field of expertise who explain this? or perhaps your own credentials?
Already have.
In other threads.
Over and over again.
I understand the frustration, but it is apples and oranges.
Lag is lag
NHL is experiencing a form of lag that kills the gameplay
Lag in fps kill the game
Apples to apples.
Anyways, you can use games like rocket league as reference or what about mobas? i mean, at some point you are just fishing for excuses to dismiss the problem. Im not sure why though?>
yes, to the end user I get it - "lag is lag".
however, comparing this game to FPS is not apples / apples.
FPS can use methods such as histscans, cones... basically ray cast. With that you can get client side predictability that enables you to mitigate the impact of less than desirable latency.
using these methods (i.e. ray cast) you can use simple math to calculate whether or not you hit the target and it's linear. so, on the client side, you can predict if you hit the target or not and trigger animation or impacts of the event on the client side.
in this game, hockey, you have up to 12 consoles + 1 object that is supposed to be impacted in a natural way by physics and it's path is supposed to not be predetermined... meaning non-linear.
all that information has to be exchanged, in sync, with up to 12 consoles.
with all the the animations, the moves upon moves both offensively and defensively... all these moves from stick lifts to stick sweeps in what direction to what degree did it hit the random object if so what path should it take and on and on and on, I would imagine that client side predictability for this hockey game would either be minimal when compared to FPS or non-existent.
what about games such as rocket league and dota and so on?
I mean, I understand that the code cannot be 100% the same but some setups are the same. p2p is p2p and server based connection is server based.
heck, based on what you and Cory are saying, there are SOO many more interactions to capture...it almost sounds like they should have WAY more servers to handle all the processing? No? Why is there less?
At the end of the day, its all excuses. I dont believe in excuses, I believe in solutions. And the more people vent their frustrations with the current setup, the more motivated the devs will be to find "cure"
There are a lot more interactions on NHL between the 12 skaters, the puck, the sticks, and anything else compared to say rocket league where the ball just smacks off a certain face of your car model..which i imagine they try and keep mostly square.
Lets face it, this whole "this is different" argument solves nothing and proves nothing. Unless I bring up another hockey game as an example, you will be able to discard a comparison using x differences.
But more interactions does not necessarily mean that its that much more difficult to make it work. Computers can process billions of operations per second. I mean, you make it sound like more operation is an impossible task to achieve. It may be more challenging but its certainly possible. It may even be easy depending on how much money you are willing to throw at it.
I think we all realize that the connectivity could be a lot smoother with more servers but that cost a lot of money, and despite making more and more profit each year thanks to HUT, servers are not being added.
Do you have any idea what it costs to design and maintain a dedicated server location?
(And no, you can't use Hillary Clinton's email server in a bathroom as an example)
And it's not a one time costs thing. It's reoccurring costs to vendors, access providers and data centers for the space.
Your second paragraph indicates you don't understand how this stuff works and yet you have simple solutions.
Yes. I get it. It's not perfect.
And yes. I get it. There is a solution for just about every problem out there.
But at the end of the day, EAs cost expenditure would go up and that isn't up to this hockey dev team.
As it is, some are more impacted than others and companies dont make this kind of investment without proper justification.
But look, I am all for venting frustration. But guys really need to stop acting like this game's even comparable to rocket car games and FPS.
Because ea isn't a multi billion dollar company, and can't afford it, that's right ... Because the nhl franchise hasn't been out for more than 20 years and ea can't put a bit of the profits aside for better servers ?
The fact is ea don't care about their customers or community... Every division of ea ****... You want proof of this, how long has ea not cared about players taking advantage of disconnect losses. Because they have our money, and will get it again next game.
It's true. They have our money, there's no competition, and there's no pressure to do anything about it.
My feeling is, they're fine with mediocrity. It's not about winning awards or putting out a product they're really proud of anymore.
If they don't fix the online for next year there's no way I'm buying that game.
Replies
Roflmao, said like a true ea dev, even though you aren't and just a forum mod, even though numerous posts of people admitting to cheating are posted and you do nothing about that, but you sure can defend nonsense...
As said lag is lag , a delay is a delay, you can't win face offs , fights, time a save, time a deke, time a hit, time a poke, nothing if you aren't in sync with the other players you are at a serious disadvantage, anyone who says otherwise is a complete moron and should shake their head, please don't shake out the last bit of common sense you may have though...
And it's funny for honor is being hated in for using peer to peer... The lag is apparently very noticeable in that game and ruining alot of players experiences . Sound familiar?
You realize that your argument makes EA look worse, not better, right? Let's accept that FPS and Hockey are very different games, and that therefore lag has a much bigger impact on Hockey than it does on FPS games. The logical implication, then, is that it's EA's responsibility to invest significantly more in connectivity -- more dedicated servers, matchmaking, better net code, etc. -- since it knows that levels of lag that are acceptable in other games aren't acceptable in Hockey.
Instead, what do we get? We get EA using P2P for its most popular modes, effectively guaranteeing that people playing those modes are going to have a frustrating experience much of the time. We get too few dedicated servers for team modes. We get crappy matchmaking in both EASHL and 1v1 modes. And then we get EA's Twitter account telling people who complain about lag that the game requires "a stable connection," without ever acknowledging that most of the time, the reason the connection is unstable is because of choices EA made. And the most telling fact of all is that lag issues have been much much worse in the new-gen game than they were for the last-gen one. Things have been degenerating instead of getting better, and EA has done nothing about it.
THIS. x 1000.
Don't know what game you're talking about, but For Honor runs fine. It had launch issues like many games do, but it's perfectly fine now, even with P2P.
Funny the mods of this board are quick to jump down posters throats (sometimes deserved) but we are shelling out 60 bucks every year, we reserve the right to complain about a product that is not up to par with industry standards. Fix your net code, plain and simple. If the people you have employed can't accomplish it, hire people who can. This can apply to all the broken features in your game.
Make nhl great again!
what about games such as rocket league and dota and so on?
I mean, I understand that the code cannot be 100% the same but some setups are the same. p2p is p2p and server based connection is server based.
heck, based on what you and Cory are saying, there are SOO many more interactions to capture...it almost sounds like they should have WAY more servers to handle all the processing? No? Why is there less?
At the end of the day, its all excuses. I dont believe in excuses, I believe in solutions. And the more people vent their frustrations with the current setup, the more motivated the devs will be to find "cure"
I only saw hostility coming from you here. Thats the main reason I stepped in to add my thoughts. it seems to me like a healthy discussion. Sure, its a recurring topic. Sure, for Honor is not NHL. But this is nevertheless a reminder that people are unhappy with the current setup.
I didnt really see much fighting. Being hostile probably not the best way to help reduce hostility. In fact, people, including me, have been very reasonable in their responses to you despite the slap in the face you handed.
That being said, a lot of people are getting less patient with EA because they spend a lot of money to play their game and they dont feel like EA is spending equivalent money to improve the problematic areas.
There are a lot more interactions on NHL between the 12 skaters, the puck, the sticks, and anything else compared to say rocket league where the ball just smacks off a certain face of your car model..which i imagine they try and keep mostly square.
Here, again, EA has totally fallen down on the job -- desyncing has been a problem since NHL 11, and after being out of the game last year, is back in full force this year, and EA can't fix it and won't take any steps (like limiting the number of times you can pull the goalie, or handing you a loss if you commit too many penalties in a period) to prevent it. IP booting, meanwhile, remains a serious problem, particularly in HUT. One obvious way to deal this would be for EA to monitor game outcomes, and ban players who rack up DNF Win after DNF Win. Again, no evidence that they're doing this.
In the game I just played, the first period ended, and then instead of going to the menu, it just did this over and over, until I finally quit after 10 minutes or so:
Here's the recent record of my opponent, whose gamer tag is Cmonitsjon, with the team name Right Deke:
Every game on that list ended after 20 minutes in a 3-0 DNF Win for him. (And you'll notice that the player he victimized right before me was this board's own Cogsx86.) I think it's obvious what EA should have done to this guy a long time ago. But he's been happily racking up those DNF Wins (enabled by the decision to use P2P) without any interference at all.
Lets face it, this whole "this is different" argument solves nothing and proves nothing. Unless I bring up another hockey game as an example, you will be able to discard a comparison using x differences.
But more interactions does not necessarily mean that its that much more difficult to make it work. Computers can process billions of operations per second. I mean, you make it sound like more operation is an impossible task to achieve. It may be more challenging but its certainly possible. It may even be easy depending on how much money you are willing to throw at it.
I think we all realize that the connectivity could be a lot smoother with more servers but that cost a lot of money, and despite making more and more profit each year thanks to HUT, servers are not being added.
Do you have any idea what it costs to design and maintain a dedicated server location?
(And no, you can't use Hillary Clinton's email server in a bathroom as an example)
And it's not a one time costs thing. It's reoccurring costs to vendors, access providers and data centers for the space.
Your second paragraph indicates you don't understand how this stuff works and yet you have simple solutions.
Yes. I get it. It's not perfect.
And yes. I get it. There is a solution for just about every problem out there.
But at the end of the day, EAs cost expenditure would go up and that isn't up to this hockey dev team.
As it is, some are more impacted than others and companies dont make this kind of investment without proper justification.
But look, I am all for venting frustration. But guys really need to stop acting like this game's even comparable to rocket car games and FPS.
Obviously EA wouldn't maintain the servers itself. It would outsource them, just as it did with Azure for Titanfall and now with Multiplay with Titanfall 2. (And it's not like Titanfall is some hugely lucrative game.) Running dedicated servers is much easier -- and cheaper -- than it once was. And yes, adding more servers would be more expensive than not adding them, but it would also go a long way to mitigate people's frustrations with EASHL, strengthen the NHL brand, and improve the chances that people will continue to buy this game in the future.
There's a limit to how many corners you can cut, and EA might be nearing the limit with these series. Think of how many regular commenters on this board have vanished, or no longer play much at all. You can't build a game that's dependent on low latency in order to work well and then not invest in the necessary infastructure so that people can actually play the game with low latency. Or rather, you can do that, but then what you end up with is what EA has now with this series: lots and lots of unhappy customers. (And I'm not talking about this board -- look at EA's Twitter feed or its Facebook page for real vitriolic criticism.)
Yes understood on the first part and i dont disagree with your comment at all.
I just know how companies aren't gonna move on a project like that until they hit that wall to where they are losing money over it.
Do you have any idea how much profit EA makes with NHL series? I mean cost to profit ratios that is. They are killing it with hut and by selling the same recycled game for full price every year. Who else in the gaming industry has the luxury of Reselling the same game over and over and over each year with a skeleton crew working on updates for that price? Its quite literally one of the best investment to return ratio in the industry. So yah, people expect that they can invest SOME of that profit in improving their network architecture to support the fans they are milking each year.
Not sure how you can defend EA for this practice. I can defend the employees like Ben who clearly want the game to succeed but are faced with limitations in resources but I cannot excuse EA for their juicing the market until it dies.
Because ea isn't a multi billion dollar company, and can't afford it, that's right ... Because the nhl franchise hasn't been out for more than 20 years and ea can't put a bit of the profits aside for better servers ?
The fact is ea don't care about their customers or community... Every division of ea sucks... You want proof of this, how long has ea not cared about players taking advantage of disconnect losses. Because they have our money, and will get it again next game.
yeah but...
i'm not defending them.
I, along with everyone else (I imagine) that lives along the coast(s) experience what you do and yes it's a disadvantage when you are playing on an opposite coast server.
So I completely get the Oscar Rogers perspective:
It's true. They have our money, there's no competition, and there's no pressure to do anything about it.
My feeling is, they're fine with mediocrity. It's not about winning awards or putting out a product they're really proud of anymore.
If they don't fix the online for next year there's no way I'm buying that game.