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Simulation VS Arcade

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  • ColonScoper
    157 posts Member
    edited October 2016
    COGSx86 wrote: »
    As usual people misinterpret people's issues with the skating and simply say "it's fine." Talking about the inability to skate full speed and quickly reach top speed in the opposite direction is a grossly oversimplification of what people think of the skating engine. I'm sure some people think that way. The people who are skating at top speed everywhere on the ice, but I and most of the other people I've talked to, and discussed their grioes with the skating engine are like-minded and want to see better low speed control over our skaters with a primary focus on responsiveness, facing the play on a consistent basis without having to fight any sort of spinning, and having the fidelity and fluidity to transfer in and out of lateral movements.

    Colon, I have shown, players dont face the play continuously. The only real part that needs to be addressed is when the puck carrier is in the corner, and the defense-men is not able to go North South but at the same time facing east west.

    This is the only piece that EA really needs to address with players who dont have the puck in the corners.

    As for players with the puck, the auto dekes are a joke, and need to be addressed because players have bubbles when they active that auto dekes. This should be addressed.

    But again as stated to say the TPs needs to scrapped is a bit short sited.

    And if you go back and read the response I made to you back when you tried to prove this point, I explained to you that even if you had the ability to track the puck and move laterally with a newer better form of vision control, if you didn't want to face the puck you simply wouldn't press the button. Meanwhile, if nothing changes about skating in the future were left with no reliable way to move laterally in this game. Inb4 someone mentions Precision Skating because it's a joke. But still yes, the vast, VAST majority of the time in the defensive zone just about every skater on the ice is facing and tracking the puck.
  • COGSx86 wrote: »
    Skatings fine, carrying on

    I don't agree with you often, but here I do.
    Agree with operatorasfnck too.

    Skating is good. You can't go full speed pumping your boost then suddenly go the opposite direction without changing your momentum. Should it be easier to make turns? No. Turning is also fine.

    People just have to learn that you can't do certain things on skates that you can do on feet. That's why hockey moves so much different than soccer. Every year the skating gets better and more realistic, imo.

    In my experiences I disagree with this part. Turning is not fine the way it is. There are many times that turning/rotating your player in the proper direction (clockwise vs counter-clockwise) is key on whether you make a play or take yourself completely out of it. Now, rotating your left stick slowly is supposed to turn your skater in that direction, but more times than not it makes you spin the "long way around" or the wrong/opposite way, which not only wastes time, but creates a bad pivot that pulls you completely out of the play. Any form of input delay or lag increases the chance of this happening. As a matter of fact, any input delay or lag causes your player to constantly get stuck in unwanted pivots and/or excessive skid-stops that take forever for the animation to complete.

    I understand what they are trying to do here, but I don't think they can implement everything PROPERLY with latency being a thing every single year with this game.
  • I've said it before. The issue isn't arcade or simulation. The issue is that EA nit picks about what is "realistic" and what isn't. When 16 came out, they claimed "realism" and to the point where you had to glide to receive passes, to pass, and to shoot. Funny, couldn't rub anyone out along the boards. Funny, couldn't lose the puck while skating into the boards full speed. Funny, holding RS out still gave HUGE agility and control over the puck. Funny, board playing yourself negates any and all incoming body checks. Just poof! Magic! The body check is nullified!

    There are other examples that we all can pull out. And THAT is the issue. Yea sure, make the game realistic but Little Timmy has to score. So make all rebounds and most poke checks go to the offensive team. Make deke animations virtually uninterruptible. Make goalies move like 3 ton garbage trucks. We have to let players dangle, snipe, celly......

    THAT is the issue. No clear vision or direction. The dev team is all over the place and it feels like it all over this game. Just an incredible amount of what the eff moments and most times, not in a logical manner.
  • I've said it before. The issue isn't arcade or simulation. The issue is that EA nit picks about what is "realistic" and what isn't. When 16 came out, they claimed "realism" and to the point where you had to glide to receive passes, to pass, and to shoot. Funny, couldn't rub anyone out along the boards. Funny, couldn't lose the puck while skating into the boards full speed. Funny, holding RS out still gave HUGE agility and control over the puck. Funny, board playing yourself negates any and all incoming body checks. Just poof! Magic! The body check is nullified!

    There are other examples that we all can pull out. And THAT is the issue. Yea sure, make the game realistic but Little Timmy has to score. So make all rebounds and most poke checks go to the offensive team. Make deke animations virtually uninterruptible. Make goalies move like 3 ton garbage trucks. We have to let players dangle, snipe, celly......

    THAT is the issue. No clear vision or direction. The dev team is all over the place and it feels like it all over this game. Just an incredible amount of what the eff moments and most times, not in a logical manner.

    You make a lot of good valid points here. I wish EA would actually take some of these posts to heart.
  • We need a game that follows your controller commands 100% of the time.

    Yea, I'm sick of having my left stick ignored because the game decided that it wanted me to finish some stupid animation I didn't ask for. It feels like too often the game is trying to predict your next stride, but hockey moves too fast for that to work well, so it ends up floundering.

    It's just not fun anymore. They've made the hockey equivalent of a Flight Simulator game. If I have to spend this much time and effort learning how to skate in the engine that EA came up with, why wouldn't I just join another league in real life?

    Hey! Seamless puck pickups give you more control, no matter the 1000s of proof that'd say otherwise, you "troll"!
  • Smike57
    97 posts Member
    edited October 2016
    COGSx86 wrote: »
    Skatings fine, carrying on

    I don't agree with you often, but here I do.
    Agree with operatorasfnck too.

    Skating is good. You can't go full speed pumping your boost then suddenly go the opposite direction without changing your momentum. Should it be easier to make turns? No. Turning is also fine.

    People just have to learn that you can't do certain things on skates that you can do on feet. That's why hockey moves so much different than soccer. Every year the skating gets better and more realistic, imo.

    Ahhh, another useless post talking about a mechanic from 13 that he assumes we all don't know about. Great insight, buddy. I'll go "learn how to play". What a constructive post! Go join the Xxx NHL legendZZ Xxx club with COGs, iBaddar, operter and da boiis, cause you're all so amazing at this game.

    I'm expecting you guys to be LG Pro Series champs easily this season (like 60-0 with 4 game sweeps in each playoff series) since you're all so God-like at this game. Also, can you all twitch the game as well, so us peasents can learn from our Gods?

    Thanks bunches xoxox :):):)
  • COGSx86 wrote: »
    Skatings fine, carrying on

    I don't agree with you often, but here I do.
    Agree with operatorasfnck too.

    Skating is good. You can't go full speed pumping your boost then suddenly go the opposite direction without changing your momentum. Should it be easier to make turns? No. Turning is also fine.

    People just have to learn that you can't do certain things on skates that you can do on feet. That's why hockey moves so much different than soccer. Every year the skating gets better and more realistic, imo.

    In my experiences I disagree with this part. Turning is not fine the way it is. There are many times that turning/rotating your player in the proper direction (clockwise vs counter-clockwise) is key on whether you make a play or take yourself completely out of it. Now, rotating your left stick slowly is supposed to turn your skater in that direction, but more times than not it makes you spin the "long way around" or the wrong/opposite way, which not only wastes time, but creates a bad pivot that pulls you completely out of the play. Any form of input delay or lag increases the chance of this happening. As a matter of fact, any input delay or lag causes your player to constantly get stuck in unwanted pivots and/or excessive skid-stops that take forever for the animation to complete.

    I understand what they are trying to do here, but I don't think they can implement everything PROPERLY with latency being a thing every single year with this game.

    This is a good point, and I agree that this is stupid and needs fixing. Your guys should ALWAYS turn to face the puck without it, and should ALWAYS turn in a manner to protect the puck from a defender when in possession of the puck. Far too often the game forces you into a high risk situation without you making that choice.
    I was referring to simply the turning radius based on your skating speed, not the direction of the turn the game picks for you, so you bring up a good point.
  • If L2 was vision control you could simply press and hold the button to PIVOT in the shortest direction towards the puck instead of actually having to make a TURN like you see so often in this game.
  • What I don't understand is, why is it that the people who are in favor of TPS admit that it needs tweaking, yet they cannot comprehend that the old skating engine just needed a little tweaking by adding some weight to the players. That skating engine was WAY closer to being realistic than TPS is in its current state. It certainly was WAY more responsive and actually did what you asked it to do from a controller fidelity standpoint.

    But they just say "What do you want.. The old floaty skating engine back?". Well... What makes them not understand that all they would have to do is make a little tweak to it and it would be totally fine? Wayyyyyy better and more realistic and responsive than TPS which is an arcady hot mess.
  • CrushNHL wrote: »
    What I don't understand is, why is it that the people who are in favor of TPS admit that it needs tweaking, yet they cannot comprehend that the old skating engine just needed a little tweaking by adding some weight to the players. That skating engine was WAY closer to being realistic than TPS is in its current state. It certainly was WAY more responsive and actually did what you asked it to do from a controller fidelity standpoint.

    But they just say "What do you want.. The old floaty skating engine back?". Well... What makes them not understand that all they would have to do is make a little tweak to it and it would be totally fine? Wayyyyyy better and more realistic and responsive than TPS which is an arcady hot mess.

    Tweaking the old skating and tweaking the new skating would accomplish the same thing, just take different paths to get to the same location. They're just being narrow-minded and pretentious, or just misinterpreting what you're saying. That last sentence is these forums in a nutshell
  • HandsomeCatf1sh
    1707 posts Member
    edited October 2016
    Skating and momentum is the most authentic it's ever been. Is it perfect? No. will it ever be? Probably not.
    For the love of god keep going forward, 16 was a chore...and previous versions were laughably arcadish.
  • Skating and momentum is the most authentic it's ever been. Is it perfect? No. will it ever be? Probably not.
    For the love of god keep going forward, 16 was a chore...and previous versions were laughably arcadish.

    I mean, some people want to play Battlefield, some want to play CoD, some play ArmA, and others prefer something completely different when it comes to shooters. None of them are wrong, but they're all designed with different goals in mind. The problem is that EA is trying to please everyone with one game, leaving neither group satisfied.

    I'm more of an arcade kind of guy at this point, and my opinion is certainly just as biased as yours, but the NHL series seemed to be much more successful when it wasn't so concerned with realism. I just don't think the market is there for a completely sim-focused game.,
  • For five years in a row now (NHL 13, 14, 15, 16, 17) we are hearing the same complaints over and over again, myself included. The skating svcks. Players don't turn properly or quickly enough. Animations control most of the game-play. Any amount of delay/lag results in a bad experience for ONE player. You can out-skill somebody and lose because of poor AI programming or unlucky "randomness." Blah, blah, blah. Anybody who has been on this forum for more than a week knows how the story goes.

    So based on that, can a legitimate argument be made that this series NEEDS to return to a more classic "arcade-like" feel rather than EA increasing the randomness and simulation qualities they "TRY" to instate every year? Too often you feel like you are playing against your controller more than you are your opponent, and it would be nice to feel like you are in control of what your players do ALL of the time.

    I'm not saying a full-scale arcade game here. You would still need to use "hockey sense" to be successful at the game. You would still have the full set of rules, but the bu!!5h!t we have now needs to go.

    We need a game that follows your controller commands 100% of the time.

    Lol... Maybe they should commit to full simulation, no stick on stick contact. Crazy board play. The hitting is ridiculous, bump a player with high strength from behind with his momentum and the back goes backwards into the hitters stick, pucks warping back, players stuck to terrible animations, goalies can't even pick up easy pucks because of bad animations....

    Then the fact that everything is automated and not skill based , so I don't see how you are playing against your controller, it anything, bad mechanics.



  • No, what people want is a balanced game that's realistic yet without randomness and to be in control of their skater and in control of what happens on the ice. If thats interpreted as arcadey then fine.
  • Wrong thread
  • Sinbin
    1331 posts Member
    No, what people want is a balanced game that's realistic yet without randomness and to be in control of their skater and in control of what happens on the ice. If thats interpreted as arcadey then fine.

    Isn't hockey full of randomness? The puck is constantly reacting to the players and objects on the ice. It's not so much randomness as unpredictability. You don't always know exactly how the puck is going to react. If there was less randomness, it would mean the computer would have to guide the puck more and add more assistance to make sure it didn't bounce the way it does. People already scream ice tilt. That would just make things worse as well as give you less control over what you can do. There would also need to be more animations which would take even more control away from the player and give it to the computer.

    I want the control as well, but not at the expense of taking control away from the player. If you play this game more like real hockey, you get a better game. Most people don't play that way. They're very aggressive, chase for hits, play way out of position, don't pass much, etc. The game isn't totally to blame. It's also how it's played that causes problems. If you didn't see players bunching up with several turnovers happening back to back, you'd probably feel you were in more control. There's a lot of stopping and starting because most people carry the puck in to the NZ, get bumped, lose the puck, bump the guy that picks it up, turnover, bumped again, turned over, etc, until someone can skate away with it. You basically avoid that with a good passing game.
  • Sinbin wrote: »
    No, what people want is a balanced game that's realistic yet without randomness and to be in control of their skater and in control of what happens on the ice. If thats interpreted as arcadey then fine.

    Isn't hockey full of randomness? The puck is constantly reacting to the players and objects on the ice. It's not so much randomness as unpredictability. You don't always know exactly how the puck is going to react. If there was less randomness, it would mean the computer would have to guide the puck more and add more assistance to make sure it didn't bounce the way it does. People already scream ice tilt. That would just make things worse as well as give you less control over what you can do. There would also need to be more animations which would take even more control away from the player and give it to the computer.

    I want the control as well, but not at the expense of taking control away from the player. If you play this game more like real hockey, you get a better game. Most people don't play that way. They're very aggressive, chase for hits, play way out of position, don't pass much, etc. The game isn't totally to blame. It's also how it's played that causes problems. If you didn't see players bunching up with several turnovers happening back to back, you'd probably feel you were in more control. There's a lot of stopping and starting because most people carry the puck in to the NZ, get bumped, lose the puck, bump the guy that picks it up, turnover, bumped again, turned over, etc, until someone can skate away with it. You basically avoid that with a good passing game.

    There's randomness that makes sense. Like a deflection physically reacting to hitting off of a players leg in a realistic way and possibly scoring. Then there's randomness such as being able to blindly poke check pucks, having hits completely bounce off skaters while when they get pushed in the back, they lose the puck behind them. How players bobble passes yet sometimes catch slapshots to keep the play in the zone. How goalies will save point blank slap shots yet will seemingly move out of the way of slow shots at times. There's many more examples of this I can keep going. That's the randomness that needs to go away.
  • Sinbin wrote: »
    No, what people want is a balanced game that's realistic yet without randomness and to be in control of their skater and in control of what happens on the ice. If thats interpreted as arcadey then fine.

    Isn't hockey full of randomness? The puck is constantly reacting to the players and objects on the ice. It's not so much randomness as unpredictability. You don't always know exactly how the puck is going to react. If there was less randomness, it would mean the computer would have to guide the puck more and add more assistance to make sure it didn't bounce the way it does.

    The randomness isn't with the way the puck moves. If anything, we need more randomness there, since the game clearly guides the puck at times, instead of letting it be genuinely loose.

    The randomness is in the game's physics and mechanics. Sometimes you can poke the puck off a player's stick without ever touching the puck or the stick. Other times, a poke that's right on the player's blade has no impact at all. Sometimes, stick-on-stick contact jars the puck loose. Other times, you can drag your stick right through another player's and not have the puck move. Sometimes, collisions with your teammate, if you have the puck, will knock the puck loose. Other times, you can drag your stick through your teammate's body and keep control of the puck the entire time.

    Sometimes players will skate right past pucks without even trying to pick them up. Other times, players will extend their sticks a long way to pick the puck up, or in this year's game, reach behind themselves and kick the puck to their stick, even when they can't see the puck and have no idea where it is. Sometimes the puck just sits there when you try to pick it up. Other times, it transports itself a few feet onto a player's stick, as if it's been magnetized. Sometimes skates are solid, and pucks will deflect off them. Other times, they're immaterial, and the puck morphs right through them (this happens a lot with that kick mechanic.) Sometimes goalie pads are solid, and if you run into them, the puck will come loose. Other times, you can poke literally through the goalie's pads.

    Yes, hockey IRL is random, more random than any other major sport. That's why the game's physics and mechanics need to be consistent and universal. They're not. They're absurdly inconsistent. And this isn't inevitable. It's the result of gameplay and design choices the devs made, and their inability to write code that can handle the myriad interactions they've decided they want to model. That's what leads to the ridiculous randomness in this game, and it's why people find playing the game so frustrating.
  • You guys saying the skating is fine are laughable. Clearly you don't play defense and if you do its not at a high level. Try playing it in D1 against top 100 teams and come back and tell me you have the control you need to be competitive.
  • nickythewop
    451 posts Member
    edited October 2016
    In regards to the whole random vs consistent debate, I don't understand the argument in favor of randomness. How does occasionally punishing a player for trying a play that works 95% of the time benefit anyone? Why should my skater miss the shot, bobble the pass, not get the interception, fall down from a weak hit, take a slashing penalty for breaking a stick, or whiff on a poke check if it is objectively the right play to be making at that time? I understand that humans aren't perfect, but I don't see why that means that the game should add in more randomness to the game.

    Because I'm human, shouldn't I already be making mistakes that would leave me out of position for a pass, mistiming a poke check, or leaving myself vulnerable to a hit or stick lift from an opponent? Isn't that already enough randomness caused by 12 skaters on the ice at any given time that we don't need more? If I knock a player down on a play, is it really that crazy to think that if I make the same move a second time, I should get the same result? Shouldn't it be on the other player to not do the exact same thing by trying a deke, passing it sooner, or dumping it in?

    It's one thing to be "unlucky" in an FPS because you were sniping a player and they moved just before your bullet hit, and it's another for the game to say that 5% of the time your aim goes a bit to the right. Beyond a doubt this sort of thing happens in real life, but the day I play a shooter and miss a headshot when my crosshairs are in perfect position is the day I find a new shooter to play.

    Beyond those examples, wouldn't it make tuning this game a million times easier for EA if they knew that any time someone posted a clip, they knew it wasn't just a one in a million chance, and they could completely reproduce it? All of this randomness just adds that much more uncertainty when you're watching someone's videos.

    How is the game made better because if you force a pass through the slot enough times, you'll eventually get one through, even if the defense plays it perfectly?
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