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Major problems with goalies

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  • NHLDev wrote: »
    jonlolol wrote: »

    Can we get an explanation to this?


    - Increased goalies ability to control rebounds


    Thanks.

    There was some tuning around how quickly a goalie can abort their current save to recover if needed and also what the puck collision is like with the goalie and how they absorb the puck for less juicy rebounds on weaker shots especially.

    Goalies are now playing pretty great. DO NOT touch them the rest of the year please. If anything take the current precision movement speed and add a slider for it so goalies can play with maybe a lesser movement speed if they prefer that or not.
  • brettbarrett0987
    85 posts Member
    edited October 2016
    Haven't tested the tuner yet.

    Ben

    Are you guys aware of the issue that goalies (human) sometimes get "stuck" during cross crease passes? I'm not talking about the stuck in animation thing that happens when you get bumped, talking about where none of your control inputs register and goalie just stays there when you tell him to go left or right on cross crease plays. Guessing its a code issue that can't be fixed with a tuner update.

    Also, was getting sniped even when your making the smallest adjustment to stay squared to the shooter an intentional decision? I don't remember it being like that in beta. It's extremely easy to get sniped if you make even the smallest adjustment now, better off staying still. The goalie kinda moves his body in the opposite direction of the puck during the save animation like he is intentionally letting the puck go past him.

  • yankfanatic2101
    58 posts Member
    edited October 2016
    Apologies for late response.....life and all that. I probably messed up this response too cuz I'm terrible at quoting.
    jonlolol wrote: »

    In regards to your clip – you aren't exactly using the t-push animations in the proper time a goalie would actually use them. Obviously they are wonky and yes the animations are off as is demonstrated in the clips, but at the same time you're supposed use them to push forward and mostly on point to point passes as real life goalies would.

    'In my post it clearly states (twice) that the video was posted FOR FUN. Obviously that's not when to use a T-push and every serious goalie knows its broken. My point is that even with a properly working T-push other current moves can be just as or more effective in situations where the T-push would be used. This would make using the T-push pointless as goalies would use the easiest method possible and not use an extra move if they don't have to (same thought process for post hugs).'

    Your point about the movements – yes, I agree, you can always just move the LS back and forth, but this is also because of your playstyle. You stay deep and centred in your net so all that's required is a small left stick push to track the D to D pass. What I believe Ben is getting at is that eventually (assuming the t-pushes can work properly) he would prefer to see us use a t-push to give us that speed increase laterally rather than jacking up precision control where it doesn't look as clean. I think everyone is aware how badly the t-push movement is broken. We're talking in the future if it can be fixed how it would be implemented.

    Actually I'm playing farther out than ever before, especially when the puck is on the outside and having huge success with it. I used to play even with the post, now I'm ahead so less pucks will bounce off me and into the net (instead it will go to the corner). There are definitely times to retreat and go back toward the center but that's what good goalies are able to do, adjust to the situation at hand.

    The other issue is people see the precision modifier as a toggle for fast and slow, where that's not exactly the case. T-pushes aren't meant to be used on in-tight cross creases or to track a guy cutting across the middle in the slot (this is where non-precision butterfly slides really come in handy)... they're meant to be use to gain an angle on the puck carrier, catch up to a pass made to the other side of the ice, etc. etc. Someone made a point earlier about it's kind of difficult to train your self how to use them properly with how fast the game plays currently and they were right. Ben is also right in saying that we aren't using the proper controls, because it would be a lot easier to use the t-pushes properly (if they worked correctly) if we were on default controls.

    This goes back to my first response. Even if the T-push works, unless something drastic happens like severely lowering precision speed, other moves can be just as effective meaning I (and probably others) would use the moves we're already used to and KNOW will get the job done instead of adding another move to the repitoire. KISS. They obvoiusly want the T-push to work as they've put so much time into it but if goalies can move around the crease and make saves without it, get rid of it (keep it on the backburner) and you'll have another button available for more goalie options and perhaps a better feature in the future.

    In a perfect world where there are no bugs and cheesy goals that go through our pad, do we want to see goalie being as easy as just moving the LS around to follow the puck? (This is a serious question)

    Well yes, I'm definitely not going to follow the puck with the right stick lol.

    Do we want goalies to be like last gen where they kind of just floated around the crease?

    Is a "good" goalie in EASHL going to be one that's just really good at moving the LS around really fast or one that knows how to properly use the tools provided to make saves?

    This questions is very one sided lol. Obviously the proper tools but this years game incorporates more features of a 'good' goalie than previous years. Movement is the last thing I worry about. First its about positioning, making sure you have shortside covered yet giving yourself a chance as crosses. Next (and for the first time ever IMO) depth is finally a small factor for goalies. Play too centered and the wide angle shots will go in. Play too deep and more pucks will bounce off you and trickle in and you are more susceptible to deflections getting past (hopefully this is still the case after the tuner, don't want to reward them for playing too deep). Then its about reading the play. Then its about knowing the type of move you need (most of the time it will be just the LS but maybe you need to cover more distance). If the shot is from up close and you're still standing up, then you should use the butterfly push or even push to RVH if its a wide angle shot. Using just the LS on close shots then we should get burnt on low shots and sitting butterfly too deep in the crease should leave you vulnerable to high. After all those earlier things are done, then you move.


    Right now with the precision speed the way it is, there is a noticeable difference between goalies who try to play like 16 and goalies who have adapted to 17. The guys who play like last year just try to stay standing all of the time on passes out wide for one-timers, where as the goalies who have adapted will execute a butterfly slide to get the extra distance to save the wide angled one-timer. This creates a skill gap between goalies who know what tools to use and goalies who are just trying to track the puck.

    'I'd say butterfly slide to Post lean but yes I agree there. Now I wonder if the extra boost will help those goalies for that particular scenario. I also see people who play just as deep as they did in 16 and wonder why some of these goals go in.


    I still think for 17 the way to go is to increase precision movement speed because we still have a lot of weird goals going in AND we don't have a tool that gives us that extra speed when needed. Once the weird goals stop (hopefully at some point lol) you have to start looking at how to tune goalies into a position where there is more skill separation (ie. give us tools to work with and the elite goalies will find a way to use them to their advantage where as the mediocre goalies will still be learning the proper situations to use these tools).

    Weird goals will never stop going in, not because i think EA sucks or anything like that, goalie programming is just an nearly impossible task by far with sooooo many variables to account for so props to EA for doing what they've done with it so far. I think the biggest hurdle is the posts as other net games don't have the back of the action. This probably creates so many collision detection issues I can imagine the headaches.'

    Last thing – IF we do see a precision movement speed increase this year, I guarantee there will be a ton of complaints right away about it. If you've been getting sniped against the grain now, it'll be even worse with more speed. Again, good goalies will adjust to it, but I'm interested to see how we handle what we've been asking for all year.

    I expect to see more teams try D to D 1-Ts across the grain to get our goalie drifting out of the way. We'll see if depth is a way to answer that. Also, I find it funny that this 'momentum issue' has actually been going on for years, just our goalies reach farther so even though we'd 'get caught' moving he'd make a save off the tip of his glove/blocker. The adjustment is to NOT MOVE UNLESS ABSOLUTELY NECESSSARY PEOPLE. Trust your goalie lol.


    Good talk sir in case life gets in the way again :)
  • jonlolol
    151 posts Game Changer
    I expect to see more teams try D to D 1-Ts across the grain to get our goalie drifting out of the way. We'll see if depth is a way to answer that. Also, I find it funny that this 'momentum issue' has actually been going on for years, just our goalies reach farther so even though we'd 'get caught' moving he'd make a save off the tip of his glove/blocker. The adjustment is to NOT MOVE UNLESS ABSOLUTELY NECESSSARY PEOPLE. Trust your goalie lol.

    I don't see it as an issue at all. I see it as a part of the game that helps us save cross creases and the like. I want my goalie to move after a shot is taken. It requires you to think differently about it, though. You always need to take that extra movement into consideration and treat it like an extension of your current movement.
  • yankfanatic2101
    58 posts Member
    edited October 2016
    jonlolol wrote: »
    I expect to see more teams try D to D 1-Ts across the grain to get our goalie drifting out of the way. We'll see if depth is a way to answer that. Also, I find it funny that this 'momentum issue' has actually been going on for years, just our goalies reach farther so even though we'd 'get caught' moving he'd make a save off the tip of his glove/blocker. The adjustment is to NOT MOVE UNLESS ABSOLUTELY NECESSSARY PEOPLE. Trust your goalie lol.

    I don't see it as an issue at all. I see it as a part of the game that helps us save cross creases and the like. I want my goalie to move after a shot is taken. It requires you to think differently about it, though. You always need to take that extra movement into consideration and treat it like an extension of your current movement.

    I know Ben said when we move the right stick the game doesn't know initially whether we want a short a long stride. But I think if its already established that we are using a small push, then I would say little to no momentum if a shot happens.

    If the shot occurs during a large stride (or in that initial frame) then the momentum is more acceptable IMO. This would make sense since for crosses we are going to be using a full push OR it will be during that initial frame giving us that push we want for crosses anyway.
  • jtricoli
    52 posts Member
    edited October 2016
    Haven't tested the tuner yet.


    Also, was getting sniped even when your making the smallest adjustment to stay squared to the shooter an intentional decision? I don't remember it being like that in beta. It's extremely easy to get sniped if you make even the smallest adjustment now, better off staying still. The goalie kinda moves his body in the opposite direction of the puck during the save animation like he is intentionally letting the puck go past him.

    So, this is something I'm curious about as well. Was this addressed in the tuner or will it require some sort of coding? Obviously we aren't looking for a complete shut down of this type of goal, but the margin of error for goalies needs to be a tad more forgiving in these situations.

    Jtric
    Post edited by jtricoli on
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    Haven't tested the tuner yet.

    Ben

    Are you guys aware of the issue that goalies (human) sometimes get "stuck" during cross crease passes? I'm not talking about the stuck in animation thing that happens when you get bumped, talking about where none of your control inputs register and goalie just stays there when you tell him to go left or right on cross crease plays. Guessing its a code issue that can't be fixed with a tuner update.

    Also, was getting sniped even when your making the smallest adjustment to stay squared to the shooter an intentional decision? I don't remember it being like that in beta. It's extremely easy to get sniped if you make even the smallest adjustment now, better off staying still. The goalie kinda moves his body in the opposite direction of the puck during the save animation like he is intentionally letting the puck go past him.

    I believe it is the case where it gets your input but you haven't started moving to the side you requested yet (i.e. you are still in the push off frames of the animation) so when the save kicks in, it is from that still position.

    This wasn't the intent and we have looked at how to either not allow you to start saving if you are requesting to move until you have a min speed, or making sure in the save itself, that we request one that has a min speed to move the direction you request -- kind of the same thing and gives a similar end result.

    Those need code but would help with that a lot.

    For now, you need to get moving and get further into the push before the puck is close enough to the net to trigger the save to start. It will be much better if we can get the update in though.

    For getting sniped, we changed a few things from what was in the Beta but it was actually with intent to promote good position and hinder goal line goalies who need to reach away from their bodies to make the save. So from the Beta, a goalie should be better on saves where they can play more blocking/controlled saves.

    When it comes to moving, there are pros and cons to the current system. We recognize where you are going and allow you to move into saves (what we want to improve more in those cross crease push scenarios) but if a shooter puts one back the other way, you may end up playing an against the grain save rather than a controlled one.

    We should probably help goalies out a bit here and if the puck is reachable maybe allow a controlled drop back the other way if its close enough -- right now though, it is a product of giving the User control and not sending them back the opposite direction they are asking for. We can continue to look at that and listen to other opinions on the topic.
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    Follisimo wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    jonlolol wrote: »

    Can we get an explanation to this?


    - Increased goalies ability to control rebounds


    Thanks.

    There was some tuning around how quickly a goalie can abort their current save to recover if needed and also what the puck collision is like with the goalie and how they absorb the puck for less juicy rebounds on weaker shots especially.

    Goalies are now playing pretty great. DO NOT touch them the rest of the year please. If anything take the current precision movement speed and add a slider for it so goalies can play with maybe a lesser movement speed if they prefer that or not.

    Good to hear. There are still some things we would like to do but they require code, so we will see what happens. They will all be positive changes though and won't disrupt the balance we currently have.

    The good thing about the way the precision movement speed works is that people that want less speed can get used to using the range of the analog controls since the speed modulates from a slight press to the extreme. I am not against considering the movement sensitivity but it probably isn't something we would see for this year as settings changes are impacted by save/load and we need to account for them before setting up save files. So for example, even though we didn't get the new goalie camera and pass assist settings in until the first patch, we had put the db and save/load work on disc to account for the future work.
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    Follisimo wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    jonlolol wrote: »

    Can we get an explanation to this?


    - Increased goalies ability to control rebounds


    Thanks.

    There was some tuning around how quickly a goalie can abort their current save to recover if needed and also what the puck collision is like with the goalie and how they absorb the puck for less juicy rebounds on weaker shots especially.

    Goalies are now playing pretty great. DO NOT touch them the rest of the year please. If anything take the current precision movement speed and add a slider for it so goalies can play with maybe a lesser movement speed if they prefer that or not.

    Good to hear. There are still some things we would like to do but they require code, so we will see what happens. They will all be positive changes though and won't disrupt the balance we currently have.

    The good thing about the way the precision movement speed works is that people that want less speed can get used to using the range of the **** controls since the speed modulates from a slight press to the extreme. I am not against considering the movement sensitivity but it probably isn't something we would see for this year as settings changes are impacted by save/load and we need to account for them before setting up save files. So for example, even though we didn't get the new goalie camera and pass assist settings in until the first patch, we had put the db and save/load work on disc to account for the future work.

    I'm ok with waiting for a precision slider. Was merely an idea to give goalies more control over their style of play. I do hope any future changes don't hinder goalies again as it's the most important position to keep balance. Good goalies should always be rewarded over the bad ones.
  • Just played a good few games...and even though I lost two of them..movement felt great...I was managing to get across to make saves. Out of the five goals I let in, only one was a shyte . Looking forward to the other changes as long as it doesn't affect what we have now. Good job devs.!!
  • No speed increase to precision movement in butterfly?
  • No speed increase to precision movement in butterfly?

    It moves just fine as it is. Don't want to encourage goalie line butterfly goalies who think they are actually playing the position correctly.
  • just feels weird moving fast standing, and still shuffeling in butterfly to get across the crease or to get to white ice after a save down low.
  • Wile_E_Coyoteee
    8 posts Member
    edited October 2016
    NHLDev wrote: »
    For getting sniped, [...] We can continue to look at that and listen to other opinions on the topic.

    Please look into this; it almost ruins goalie for me in Drop-In/EASHL because I actually challenge the shooter and cut off the angle while following the puck & adjusting depth as they close in, instead of being a goal-line/crease camper. Following the shooter even with precision on results in absolute disaster if you're moving (following the puck) when they shoot - which you are 95% of the time. Your goalie will *launch* himself several feet in the direction you're moving in while doing the save animation, completely throwing you out of the way in a comical fashion - usually to the tune of several teammates reacting with "Ohhhh my Goddddd goalie, please just quit!". It's infuriating, because this happens even when you're completely square to the puck and just trying to move a centimeter more toward the post as they're moving, for example.

    Also, we desperately need a new way to use our stick as a goalie. Even the AI goalies are very active with their stick when you watch them, and we could stop so many more goals on people driving in or cutting across the net, if we actually had a proper and fluid way to use the stick. It's such a huge thing that we're lacking in-game. As it is now, you can either do a diving poke check and pray it lands, rendering you immobile for 2 full seconds, or do the RS poke that puts you in a tiny, tight butterfly while poking in front of you, locking you in an animation that lasts about 1.5 seconds - which is an ETERNITY in live play. Please look into adding something new for NHL 18 that allows us to use the stick, even while standing. Until then, would it be possible at all to cut some frames off of the normal RS-up goalie poke so we can get control of the goalie faster after initiating it? That alone would be a huge help for now! Thanks for listening.
    Post edited by Wile_E_Coyoteee on
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    Thanks for the feedback Wile_E. Definitely hear what you are saying. Some of what you are asking would require new code and/or animations. We are going to let this tuner settle, keep an eye on things and as usual, will do what we can to give more control to players and get as balanced of an experience as we can.

    Can't commit now if that will be a future tuner or content update but we will keep listening to the community and make calls and updates when possible where it makes sense.
  • SilentCricket26
    97 posts Member
    edited October 2016
    I agree with Willy. Even if it's giving us a bigger reach radius to use. As of now we have a pretty short reach. If we could reach out farther we might be recovered by the time the skater is next to us. Just another tool that could be smoothed out. I've used it plenty of times when skaters go to my glove side. It seems to recover faster since I'm using my left hand to poke.
  • I agree with Willy. Even if it's giving us a bigger reach radius to use. As of now we have a pretty short reach. If we could reach out farther we might be recovered by the time the skater is next to us. Just another tool that could be smoothed out. I've used it plenty of times when skaters go to my glove side. It seems to recover faster since I'm using my left hand to poke.

    Couldn't agree more. Smaller goalies, less reach = easier to snipe and easier to score goals, which is of course, always the main objective. So, we won't be getting more reach.



  • dr_shooter wrote: »
    I agree with Willy. Even if it's giving us a bigger reach radius to use. As of now we have a pretty short reach. If we could reach out farther we might be recovered by the time the skater is next to us. Just another tool that could be smoothed out. I've used it plenty of times when skaters go to my glove side. It seems to recover faster since I'm using my left hand to poke.

    Couldn't agree more. Smaller goalies, less reach = easier to snipe and easier to score goals, which is of course, always the main objective. So, we won't be getting more reach.

    Its the bigger reach that allows goal line goalies to be successful. That's the main reason I would assume why its unlikely to happen.
  • Follisimo wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    jonlolol wrote: »

    Can we get an explanation to this?


    - Increased goalies ability to control rebounds


    Thanks.

    There was some tuning around how quickly a goalie can abort their current save to recover if needed and also what the puck collision is like with the goalie and how they absorb the puck for less juicy rebounds on weaker shots especially.

    Goalies are now playing pretty great. DO NOT touch them the rest of the year please. If anything take the current precision movement speed and add a slider for it so goalies can play with maybe a lesser movement speed if they prefer that or not.

    I was just about to come start a thread about this. Just played a few drop ins. First game was an 8-5 win with a mediocre 76ish % sv. First game in net in a while and getting used to the new tuner after not touching goalie for 2 weeks. Second game, i changed precision default to on, and used that new fixed camera, and only gave up goals, and had 88%sv this time. One goal my goalie didn't react at all when i wanted to use the rs to slide over, wasn't screened, but it was a close in proximity play with a cross crease pass so i won't complain too much. Other the puck was trickling slowly towards the goal line in the crease. Layed back to cover it but it went by and got poked in. Boo. Otherwise with the 2 changes i made combined with the most recent tuner, goalie feels really good overall for the first time in a long time.
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    For getting sniped, [...] We can continue to look at that and listen to other opinions on the topic.

    Please look into this; it almost ruins goalie for me in Drop-In/EASHL because I actually challenge the shooter and cut off the angle while following the puck & adjusting depth as they close in, instead of being a goal-line/crease camper. Following the shooter even with precision on results in absolute disaster if you're moving (following the puck) when they shoot - which you are 95% of the time. Your goalie will *launch* himself several feet in the direction you're moving in while doing the save animation, completely throwing you out of the way in a comical fashion - usually to the tune of several teammates reacting with "Ohhhh my Goddddd goalie, please just quit!". It's infuriating, because this happens even when you're completely square to the puck and just trying to move a centimeter more toward the post as they're moving, for example.

    Also, we desperately need a new way to use our stick as a goalie. Even the AI goalies are very active with their stick when you watch them, and we could stop so many more goals on people driving in or cutting across the net, if we actually had a proper and fluid way to use the stick. It's such a huge thing that we're lacking in-game. As it is now, you can either do a diving poke check and pray it lands, rendering you immobile for 2 full seconds, or do the RS poke that puts you in a tiny, tight butterfly while poking in front of you, locking you in an animation that lasts about 1.5 seconds - which is an ETERNITY in live play. Please look into adding something new for NHL 18 that allows us to use the stick, even while standing. Until then, would it be possible at all to cut some frames off of the normal RS-up goalie poke so we can get control of the goalie faster after initiating it? That alone would be a huge help for now! Thanks for listening.

    What camera do you use? I just played a game with fixed after previously using high for the last 5 years, and it felt great. Makes the current tuner a dream to play. Albeit my sample size is rather small, but last game being a 2gaa and 88%sv after a 2 week haitus isn't too bad imo.
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