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Alienating the Long-term Fans

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  • NHLDev wrote: »
    What I mean by that is that a defender can understand the different physical conditions and take those into account when defending. They don't need to commit as much when the offensive player isn't as big of a threat to score and can use factors such as incidental contact to their advantage.

    How are we supposed to take physical conditions into account and consistently use incidental contact to our advantage when stuff like this happens all the time? It goes from a 1v3 situation to a goal because the puck carrier makes a literally impossible play, thanks to dragging his stick through my defenseman's body with no impact at all, and a puck that stays magically magnetized to his stick.

  • I actually think this game is fine. Don't overdo it thou.
  • NHLDev
    1669 posts EA NHL Developer
    .
    Bmh245 wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    What I mean by that is that a defender can understand the different physical conditions and take those into account when defending. They don't need to commit as much when the offensive player isn't as big of a threat to score and can use factors such as incidental contact to their advantage.

    How are we supposed to take physical conditions into account and consistently use incidental contact to our advantage when stuff like this happens all the time? It goes from a 1v3 situation to a goal because the puck carrier makes a literally impossible play, thanks to dragging his stick through my defenseman's body with no impact at all, and a puck that stays magically magnetized to his stick.


    It is definitely tough to see bugs like this. Incidental contact should have made the puck come free and forced him to play a pickup. However, I wouldn't suggest to rely on incidental contact in a situation like this -- the player should have played the body instead. Incidental contact will be more effective if you occupy space and the player tries to get through you rather than skating through the stick since it doesn't displace the stick and the puck will keep going when it comes free.

    That said, the puck should have been free in this clip but even so, the only difference is that Lucic would have played a puck pickup since we don't move the stick with incidental stick contact, we just make sure the puck comes free.

    When I talk about the game, I am not saying that you can't find clips where there are bugs. I am just saying from personal experience and a lot of testing that we improved numerous situations quite a lot when it comes to incidental contact and I believe that having it on is far better for defenders than not, despite there being issues, such as the one in your video, where it doesn't work as intended. The defender can still play the game as if they only have body checking and pokechecks if they wish and treat incidental contact as a bonus and offensive players will still be at more of an advantage if they deke in such a way that doesn't rely on bugs in incidental contact detection.

    Personally, I use incidental contact as a tool quite a bit though.





  • one of the problems is that you can't play a "realistic" style of play and win games. The game seems to be won by people that are really good with the skill stick. Passing. cycling, dump and chase, many of the strategies in a real game of hockey, don't equate to wins in the video game.

    It's a little frustrating losing a game that you out-shoot someone 31-12. They score 8 goals on 12 shots because they know how to do all the crazy stick dekes, and know the exact spot on the ice to shoot and score.
  • NHLDev
    1669 posts EA NHL Developer
    edited November 2016
    sgiz1 wrote: »
    Question for NHLDev.

    Love the conversation about NHL 12 for example, here is many old schooler complaint. NHL 09, 10, 11, and 12 the EASHL community and leagues were off the charts. It was never more fun to play this game back then. There was something so right with how the game played, it was just flat out fun to play!!! Since NHL 13 and the implementation of TPS (the birth of sim), ever since year by year the EASHL community has suffered greatly as fewer players from previous years came back, year by year they gave up on the game as EASHL just isn't as fun as it used to be. My question is you have to realize this, yes? That EASHL has lost it's flair/fun? The days of Kontenders, white knights, fearless, composure, ninth wonder, cross crease cheese, unbreakable cycle, reservoir dogs, and countless other top clubs and all their members played religiously day in day out all year round until the next years game came out, then repeat another year. Something happened at NHL 13, the game became less fun, (more real) but less fun.

    What is EA's stance on bringing this fun back to EASHL??? Please don't tell me its gone forever and you aren't bringing it back, it was a noble attempt to redirect the game to a sim, but you lost the fun factor. I understand there are people who like the game as is, but I can tell you as someone who's played the 09/10,11,12 year games and kept playing 13,14,15,16,17 and I'm not telling you something you don' t already know, this game does not have the fan following it once had, not even close, it was a cult, addicted NHL EASHL players 4 to 6 hours a day/night, every day. This is not the case anymore, doesn't EA want that fan dedication back?

    Please explain in terms of fun factor from old school to new school, thanks..

    Yes, it is an interesting debate. It is easy to draw a line in the sand there as that is when the game changed the most. However, it is hard to say if EASHL for those particular teams was still building in popularity in 12 still and just fell off in 13 or if it had already declined. I mean, we can look at the telemetry and we do, but trying to just talk on a high level here.

    When the game changes, it is going to appeal to different crowds in nature. However, the glory days of something can purely be when something is brand new as well. It is definitely our goal that all of our community likes the next game as much or more than the last as well as bringing in new players to the community. I remember a lot of complaints back then though that have been addressed in the changes made -- the grass can be greener looking back but I am not sure it isn't the changes in gameplay alone that necessarily lead to some players playing less games than they once did.

    This isn't me passing the blame and saying it isn't gameplay since our main job here is to continue to make the game as great as we can and conversations and comments like this definitely get noticed.

    As a side note though, you may even want to look at outside telemetry such as how many hours a week someone has for videogames over an 8 year span of their life. It may just be different teams these days that can put in the same hours as those original teams from NHL 09 and it could be that those teams spend more time on twitter and snapshot to communicate with each other than us old school guys do on forums. Kinda joking but there is some truth to it.

    The bottom line, regardless of year is that fun is subjective. We see it within our game changer discussions in terms of what is important to work on next, how people would tune the player classes, etc.
  • NHL 13 had low scoring because they introduced TPS and goal line goalies became an issue.
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    sgiz1 wrote: »
    Question for NHLDev.

    Love the conversation about NHL 12 for example, here is many old schooler complaint. NHL 09, 10, 11, and 12 the EASHL community and leagues were off the charts. It was never more fun to play this game back then. There was something so right with how the game played, it was just flat out fun to play!!! Since NHL 13 and the implementation of TPS (the birth of sim), ever since year by year the EASHL community has suffered greatly as fewer players from previous years came back, year by year they gave up on the game as EASHL just isn't as fun as it used to be. My question is you have to realize this, yes? That EASHL has lost it's flair/fun? The days of Kontenders, white knights, fearless, composure, ninth wonder, cross crease cheese, unbreakable cycle, reservoir dogs, and countless other top clubs and all their members played religiously day in day out all year round until the next years game came out, then repeat another year. Something happened at NHL 13, the game became less fun, (more real) but less fun.

    What is EA's stance on bringing this fun back to EASHL??? Please don't tell me its gone forever and you aren't bringing it back, it was a noble attempt to redirect the game to a sim, but you lost the fun factor. I understand there are people who like the game as is, but I can tell you as someone who's played the 09/10,11,12 year games and kept playing 13,14,15,16,17 and I'm not telling you something you don' t already know, this game does not have the fan following it once had, not even close, it was a cult, addicted NHL EASHL players 4 to 6 hours a day/night, every day. This is not the case anymore, doesn't EA want that fan dedication back?

    Please explain in terms of fun factor from old school to new school, thanks..

    Yes, it is an interesting debate. It is easy to draw a line in the sand there as that is when the game changed the most. However, it is hard to say if EASHL for those particular teams was still building in popularity in 12 still and just fell off in 13 or if it had already declined. I mean, we can look at the telemetry and we do, but trying to just talk on a high level here.

    When the game changes, it is going to appeal to different crowds in nature. However, the glory days of something can purely be when something is brand new as well. It is definitely our goal that all of our community likes the next game as much or more than the last as well as bringing in new players to the community. I remember a lot of complaints back then though that have been addressed in the changes made -- the grass can be greener looking back but I am not sure it isn't the changes in gameplay alone that necessarily lead to some players playing less games than they once did.

    This isn't me passing the blame and saying it isn't gameplay since our main job here is to continue to make the game as great as we can and conversations and comments like this definitely get noticed.

    As a side note though, you may even want to look at outside telemetry such as how many hours a week someone has for videogames over an 8 year span of their life. It may just be different teams these days that can put in the same hours as those original teams from NHL 09 and it could be that those teams spend more time on twitter and snapshot to communicate with each other than us old school guys do on forums. Kinda joking but there is some truth to it.

    The bottom line, regardless of year is that fun is subjective. We see it within our game changer discussions in terms of what is important to work on next, how people would tune the player classes, etc.

    trust us when we tell you, TPS hurt the game and the fan base. at the very least, it had alienated anyone who had somewhat mastered the 09-12 years. there was no motivation to keep playing since no one really asked for a new skating engine in the first place. personally, i just spend that time i used to dedicate for NHL on other games now like GTA or whatever new shooter is out.
  • COGSx86
    781 posts Member
    edited November 2016
    COGSx86 wrote: »
    SaveUs2K wrote: »
    Hotjoint wrote: »
    The NHL series isnt fun to play anymore, thats what its come down to. Ea wont give us 100% control of our player. Its frustrating and a chore to play. My team used to be hardcore players, we barely play anymore and it looks like we might stop buying NHL all together.

    Can't wait for COGs and strategg to come in and say "real hockey" and "don't let them shoot from the boards" you know, because these two are hockey experts....

    I mean, the amount of stuff I've learned from these two is amazing. I'll make sure to tell the Prep defensemen I work with thos year to give up the middle of the ice, because we don't want them taking weak wristers from the boards, because those will certainly result in huge rebounds in the middle of our slot. Lol...

    hey can you show me where I can find the clips where a weak wrister from the boards gives a huge rebound into the middle of the slot ?

    I got you COGS, right here. Not just once, but 17 times in a row on weak, unscreened shots.



    I'll be waiting for y'all to tell me how that's exactly where an NHL goalie should be leaving those rebounds, even though I've already demonstrated how easy it is for a goalie to use their stick to knock pucks into the corner. This is something I can do even on some relatively hard shots in real life. If the puck is along the ice and I can track it the whole way, I have a pretty good chance of putting that puck into the corner or to an area I think is safe.

    Fast forward to 3:18, then 5:00 then 7:20, (this one shows exactly what your doing the best) and 10:10


    oh look weak wristers from the side boards, middle of the ice and all over and huge rebounds. Watch the shots that hit Holtbys pads. You guys make me laugh.


    You must unlearn what you have learned!
  • the troll never fails to jump at a chance to troll
  • The game is a scripted, automated mess imo. Often times the games forces me to do stuff I don't want my player to do. Example, the other night, while lying on the ice to block a pass, my player stands up for no reason to allow the pass to get through. This also happens when I am trying to dive, but arbitrarily the cpu decides I should do a standing block animation so the puck can go right by me. Like someone else mentioned, poking a player at the blue line is a joke, what should result in a huge, easy breakaway leads to the puck coming off his stick maybe a foot for him to be able to pick it up again.

    Another game I played, I wound up to take a shot, and the puck flies backwards towards are own goal. Stuff like this happens every single night, and the more cpu's on the ice the more you lose control of your skater. I can't tell you how many times I get a puck and try to turn one way, but the cpu makes my player turn in the opposite direction so I run into the AI player. It's also more the obvious to me that the game delays user input to allow the AI to react faster and counter you. What player type are these AI exactly, because they aren't bound by the skating engine and have the ability to constantly pass through defenders. So many times all 3 of our forwards will have the cpu pinned and blocked from all side, but he easily makes passes through everyone.

    Same rant I have almost every year.

    Yup.

    I'll look forward to reading this after the release of 18, 19, 20. Doubt it'll reach 21.

    I literally LOL!

  • the troll never fails to jump at a chance to troll

    No kidding. Willing to bet he is about to start using NBA and NFL clips to further his points
  • NHLDev
    1669 posts EA NHL Developer

    trust us when we tell you, TPS hurt the game and the fan base. at the very least, it had alienated anyone who had somewhat mastered the 09-12 years. there was no motivation to keep playing since no one really asked for a new skating engine in the first place. personally, i just spend that time i used to dedicate for NHL on other games now like GTA or whatever new shooter is out.

    I definitely get the point about people who had mastered the game during those years. That said, there were a lot of people that complained about figure skaters and a new skating engine should be a welcome addition to a hockey game. It is always a risk to advance core tech in your game but I think that is something teams should always be looking to do where it makes sense. The decision to move to a new skating engine was decided before I started on gameplay so I can't take credit for that call but the majority of my job with skating that year was to figure out how the new skating engine, the tuning, etc. was going to fix issues people had with the old skating model -- accountability was a big part. I think it is great that pivots are actually a part of the game and that you can manage your gap by understanding when to skate forwards and pivot to backskating and that you then need to choose when to pivot and commit rather than just sliding sideways across your skates. Sure there are places where it can be better but that was the case with the old model as well which had hit some limitations to advance further.

    Overall, it brought fresh life to the series and some people adapted and embraced the change and others as you mentioned decided that they didn't have that mastery anymore and moved on rather than seeing it as another piece they could master above their competition.

    We have snipers but if shooting people with guns is what you are after, I am not sure any skating engine will make a difference there.

  • the troll never fails to jump at a chance to troll

    smyth isn't a bad guy. i've played with him and against him years ago. he literally told me he comes here to troll. hope none of the mods or devs take him seriously. he's just here to be a contrarian and rile up the masses.
  • VeNOM2099
    3178 posts Member
    edited November 2016
    Did he just post a video of Holtby saving pucks during a pre-game warm-up??...
  • COGSx86
    781 posts Member
    edited November 2016
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    Did he just post a video of Holtby saving pucks during a pre-game warm-up??...

    Yes I did show saves from the pads giving out rebounds, just like the practice clips people use to say rebounds are a joke in game.

    You must unlearn what you have learned!
  • NHLDev wrote: »

    I definitely get the point about people who had mastered the game during those years. That said, there were a lot of people that complained about figure skaters and a new skating engine should be a welcome addition to a hockey game. It is always a risk to advance core tech in your game but I think that is something teams should always be looking to do where it makes sense. The decision to move to a new skating engine was decided before I started on gameplay so I can't take credit for that call but the majority of my job with skating that year was to figure out how the new skating engine, the tuning, etc. was going to fix issues people had with the old skating model -- accountability was a big part. I think it is great that pivots are actually a part of the game and that you can manage your gap by understanding when to skate forwards and pivot to backskating and that you then need to choose when to pivot and commit rather than just sliding sideways across your skates. Sure there are places where it can be better but that was the case with the old model as well which had hit some limitations to advance further.

    Overall, it brought fresh life to the series and some people adapted and embraced the change and others as you mentioned decided that they didn't have that mastery anymore and moved on rather than seeing it as another piece they could master above their competition.

    We have snipers but if shooting people with guns is what you are after, I am not sure any skating engine will make a difference there.

    While there may have been some complaints about figure skaters before TPS, there were also more tools defensively to stop them at the time. We were never fans of the direction the game took after NHL 12 but adapted and continued to play until last year.

    Whatever happened on the jump to current gen has taken too much control from the player and made the game much less fun than it was on last gen. While we would prefer a move back to a pre NHL 13 style, we would honestly take anything that just gives a more responsive game, especially on defense.

    Even if none of that will be done, at the very least the original vision control should be brought back, but honestly without some kind of improvement to the game engine it may not matter much anyway.
  • The game is a scripted, automated mess imo. Often times the games forces me to do stuff I don't want my player to do. Example, the other night, while lying on the ice to block a pass, my player stands up for no reason to allow the pass to get through. This also happens when I am trying to dive, but arbitrarily the cpu decides I should do a standing block animation so the puck can go right by me. Like someone else mentioned, poking a player at the blue line is a joke, what should result in a huge, easy breakaway leads to the puck coming off his stick maybe a foot for him to be able to pick it up again.

    Another game I played, I wound up to take a shot, and the puck flies backwards towards are own goal. Stuff like this happens every single night, and the more cpu's on the ice the more you lose control of your skater. I can't tell you how many times I get a puck and try to turn one way, but the cpu makes my player turn in the opposite direction so I run into the AI player. It's also more the obvious to me that the game delays user input to allow the AI to react faster and counter you. What player type are these AI exactly, because they aren't bound by the skating engine and have the ability to constantly pass through defenders. So many times all 3 of our forwards will have the cpu pinned and blocked from all side, but he easily makes passes through everyone.

    Same rant I have almost every year.

    Yup.

    I'll look forward to reading this after the release of 18, 19, 20. Doubt it'll reach 21.

    I literally LOL!

    Hehehe.
  • COGSx86 wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    Did he just post a video of Holtby saving pucks during a pre-game warm-up??...

    Yes I did show saves from the pads giving out rebounds, just like the practice clips people use to say rebounds are a joke in game.

    Alright that's it. I'm outta here...

    QcqXG5r.gif
  • Thanks ben for spending some time in this thread. As a eashl only player since 09, I have to say I have been disappointed with every offering after nhl 12 (although playing 1000+ games per year, and all year long I could be slightly off on the exact year). This is not to say the game has not had areas of improvement, however, many of the things I have found game breaking are still in the game, holding it back from improving overall on a year to year basis.

    The jump to this generation was the most disappointing of all. I honestly can't see a single thing you guys are doing on this generation that you were not able to do on last generation. Maybe it's stuff under the hood. Would you be open to sharing what the power of the current systems has allowed you to do with the game that couldn't be done before? For example, puck carriers being able to hide the puck through the boards has been in the game since 09. I thought for sure the boards would be solid this gen and players would not be able to hide the puck through the boards, exploiting the game, and being rewarded by drawing tripping penalties. This game feels like a last gen game to me still.
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