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Alienating the Long-term Fans

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  • Id suggest that instead of practicing dekes and slap shots and so on. Maybe practice more defense.
    get 2 players to play 2v1s vs you or 1v1 in EASHL context (stat wise) and see how easily they can beat you or vice versa. Its really miserable to play D for the last few years.
  • kezz123 wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    This discussion got lost in the old forums but comparing the old skating is a bit tough as VC back then wasn't realistic at all. There was no commitment in pivots because you could skate at almost full speed horizontally across your skate blades. I get the argument that this should just be fun and who cares about realism but that was the choice made when TPS was introduced to advance the product and fix a lot of other things missing from the game (for example, accountability when skating, reasons for pivots to matter, etc.). It is fine to want a more arcade game but VC wasn't removed, it just has some limitations based on how players can skate at speed.

    I actually think the updates to skating this year and the VC on defense gives you fairly good control to retain facing. I worked closely with an engineer on it calling out peoples issues with accidental pivots on the rush due to puck prediciton and how it was trying to keep facing the puck, angles that back cross overs were allowed at, etc.. The changes there plus the ability to exit out of animations early when your player has the ability so you aren't forced to a pivot if you change your mind early enough are all helpful changes.

    We understand that it is possible to strafe and we have had these discussion the forums. That was the intent of Precision skating, trying to find a way to give that control at slower speeds -- could it be better, certainly, but there is a different between execution and intent. It is easy for all of us to say this should be better and it is another thing to do it while preserving the other pieces that have a good impact.

    In these clips, there is a reason why the defender isn't just strafing across the ice facing the puck. They skate forward or backwards keeping the puck in front of them the best they can but they can't face it at the exact angle if they want to be above a certain speed really. In the Nyquist goal, he gets the opening for the final shot purely because the defender has to choose where to skate and has to pivot. If he could just defend by strafing back and forth and still contain him, why wouldn't he?




    The thing is some defenders in the NHL succeed much better than others at skating backward, strafing and getting in a better position. Mind you that the defense in those videos would have the option to strafe and I bet they could but as soon as they commit the offensive player would cut in against them and leave them flat foot. its the whole mind game and I think the player is doing what is the safest by keeping the player to the outside or in the 2v1s to prevent the pass / deke across the middle of the net and instead just give the goalie a clean shot with lower angle.

    I feel like these small plays become a chore in the nhl as the player can literally just come straight at you instead of being forced to the outside. because you have little tools to deal with a forward coming closer to you while in the nhl this would be a garanteed puck loss as id just push against your body and force you off the puck or kick the puck etc. Not having these tools force me to awkwardly try to poke (risking a trip) or lift stick(risking a high stick due to bad angle) or a hit (risking to bounce off or just miss because going from backward to forward to hit is super awkward)

    Completely and utterly agree.
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    edited November 2016
    kezz123 wrote: »

    What are the solutions? Clearly you believe in your product and design and I dont think you seem too intent on doing a 180 on major features like TPS. I can respect that. However, I still hope that at some points, your stats will show that its time for a change and that you will recall those of us who have been proposing a different type of flow to your game.

    I think that a proper Vision control would go a long way in improving the flow of the game. Multiple dressing rooms would help restore some popularity in clubs. Perhaps tweaks to attributes would also be in order. I do notice that playing offline always seems so much smoother than in EASHL. I assume because the players have higher skating stats, unless its purely connectivity related.

    Thanks again for sharing your views and opinions and keeping the dialogue going.

    I appreciate the well thought out responses and I respect your view on it.

    Out of curiosity, when you play offline, what game style are you playing on? I actually think that for some people that liked NHL 09-12, they may like Game Style 2 better for pure 'fun factor' so would be curious if that is the difference or if it is just online connections or player attributes as you say but the EASHL skating attributes are pretty high level these days.

    There is a reason we offer the different game styles offline and see them all used at different percentages. And then beyond that, we have groups doing their own tuning. However, that is just as polarizing as our tuning can be. When DJNeo was tuning during his visit here to test our full sim sliders, the other gamechangers were watching over his shoulder saying that looks pretty awesome, but I would never play it, haha, but a lot of people over at Operation Sports are really enjoying being able to play longer minute periods and more simulation based gameplay. Those things are only possible if you increase what others find the frustrating parts of gameplay -- and that is why we always say 'fun' is the most subjective thing.

  • Regardless of differences of opinion, I appreciate you taking the time to hear us out.
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    This discussion got lost in the old forums but comparing the old skating is a bit tough as VC back then wasn't realistic at all. There was no commitment in pivots because you could skate at almost full speed horizontally across your skate blades. I get the argument that this should just be fun and who cares about realism but that was the choice made when TPS was introduced to advance the product and fix a lot of other things missing from the game (for example, accountability when skating, reasons for pivots to matter, etc.). It is fine to want a more arcade game but VC wasn't removed, it just has some limitations based on how players can skate at speed.

    I actually think the updates to skating this year and the VC on defense gives you fairly good control to retain facing. I worked closely with an engineer on it calling out peoples issues with accidental pivots on the rush due to puck prediciton and how it was trying to keep facing the puck, angles that back cross overs were allowed at, etc.. The changes there plus the ability to exit out of animations early when your player has the ability so you aren't forced to a pivot if you change your mind early enough are all helpful changes.

    We understand that it is possible to strafe and we have had these discussion the forums. That was the intent of Precision skating, trying to find a way to give that control at slower speeds -- could it be better, certainly, but there is a different between execution and intent. It is easy for all of us to say this should be better and it is another thing to do it while preserving the other pieces that have a good impact.

    I know this is going to come off as extremely rude, but I just don't care what the reasoning is. The game played great before and now it doesn't. The choice was made to put TPS in the game, and the choice can be made to take it out, right?
  • sgiz1
    537 posts Member
    edited November 2016
    "and that is why we always say 'fun' is the most subjective thing."

    Its subjective on a year by year snapshot, this is why I've been pushing the case study approach, we have evidence from 09/10/11/12 vs. 13/14/15/16/17, Each individual year you can claim a subjective claim, however when all evidence is weighted as a whole, and I've been here thru it all, when used as a case study the subjective becomes objective. Pre TPS attitude/enjoyment was better than post TPS.

    This is why I'm starting to lean towards a discussion on two different games, since changing the one game may be an unpopular decision among EA DEVS. Can we get a classic vision control and no TPS EASHL/OTP mode or game release? This way the core game, if that is the will of EA to keep TPS and realism, isn't affected and both parties will be happy and engaged instead of alienating one group until they just leave and don't come back.
  • Zeroshift
    54 posts Member
    edited November 2016

    I know this is going to come off as extremely rude, but I just don't care what the reasoning is. The game played great before and now it doesn't. The choice was made to put TPS in the game, and the choice can be made to take it out, right?

    I feel like this is one of the best responses, and it isn't to put down people that make the game or anything. The game may look more realistic now, but that's it, at the end of the day we are trying to control a hockey player with a stick, there are going to have to be sacrifices, you can only really go so far with 'realism'.
  • sgiz1 wrote: »
    All responses seem to be geared towards proving realism, but.. nobody is questioning what you are trying to accomplish, we understand you are after realism.

    The issue is realism has had an unintended consequence, it's less fun to play.

    Of course this depends on game modes heavily, offline gamers in particular aren't affected.

    HUT and VS are to some degree.

    However EASHL/OTP are the most affected as that is server based online gaming. This realism is less fun, and more frustrating. Again, much support criteria has been presented to show this to be true, another would be many good players who win a lot at this game complain as well, when did that ever happen? pretty much never! Winning fixes all problems doesn't hold true in this game, many who win are fine with the game as is and claim themselves masters of TPS and the universe (doesn't take many post reads to identify those individuals). However top players in all online modes are expressing frustration and all signs point to TPS and realism.

    Are you saying it is EA's official position that regardless of public/customer opinion EA is rigid on their stance that TPS and realism is here to stay regardless, end of story?

    If that is the case be forewarned, we tried to help bring this game back to life.

    However, please consider more is not better in this case, you had a fun game pre TPS, now its a frustrating simulation (notice I didn't call it a game) games are fun, this realism sim is not fun. (of course I'm speaking in generalities, I'm sure there are plenty who enjoy it) but you know that isn't the point, the point is fewer enjoy it today than pre TPS, that is what we call thru review of the case study, we are taking this game in the wrong direction, something is wrong when it's losing fan fare when it should be atleast maintaining it ( or increasing).

    Please consider a move back to a fun game, what are the possibilities of an EASHL only game mode using pre TPS mechanics?

    Call it NHL11 EASHL remastered!!!

    Let me answer that for you: it's because realism brings (or at least it's supposed to bring) an inherent notion of BALANCE and RATIONALITY to something that, for all intents and purposes, didn't have it before.

    You talk about the long time fan while looking in the mirror. I can tell you there are a LOT more long time fans, fans like me, who have been playing EA's NHL games (and nearly every other iteration of ice hockey) since 1991) and we've been dreaming for a day when we could play a realistic version of the sport we love.

    Sadly, that day hasn't come yet, but it's close. The push towards more realism also brings many improvements to the game that we never had before, which brings in more accountability from the user. It also brought forth CUSTOMIZATION, the ability to add or substract certain features so that you can shape the game to be anything you want, from the 3 minutes, braindead, dangle-fairies, 10 shots and 20 goal fests you love to the most hardcore 20 minutes, 20 shots, 1 goal per side, 200 passes and 80 face off ordeal people like ME are looking for.


  • nickythewop
    451 posts Member
    edited November 2016
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    sgiz1 wrote: »
    All responses seem to be geared towards proving realism, but.. nobody is questioning what you are trying to accomplish, we understand you are after realism.

    The issue is realism has had an unintended consequence, it's less fun to play.

    Of course this depends on game modes heavily, offline gamers in particular aren't affected.

    HUT and VS are to some degree.

    However EASHL/OTP are the most affected as that is server based online gaming. This realism is less fun, and more frustrating. Again, much support criteria has been presented to show this to be true, another would be many good players who win a lot at this game complain as well, when did that ever happen? pretty much never! Winning fixes all problems doesn't hold true in this game, many who win are fine with the game as is and claim themselves masters of TPS and the universe (doesn't take many post reads to identify those individuals). However top players in all online modes are expressing frustration and all signs point to TPS and realism.

    Are you saying it is EA's official position that regardless of public/customer opinion EA is rigid on their stance that TPS and realism is here to stay regardless, end of story?

    If that is the case be forewarned, we tried to help bring this game back to life.

    However, please consider more is not better in this case, you had a fun game pre TPS, now its a frustrating simulation (notice I didn't call it a game) games are fun, this realism sim is not fun. (of course I'm speaking in generalities, I'm sure there are plenty who enjoy it) but you know that isn't the point, the point is fewer enjoy it today than pre TPS, that is what we call thru review of the case study, we are taking this game in the wrong direction, something is wrong when it's losing fan fare when it should be atleast maintaining it ( or increasing).

    Please consider a move back to a fun game, what are the possibilities of an EASHL only game mode using pre TPS mechanics?

    Call it NHL11 EASHL remastered!!!

    Let me answer that for you: it's because realism brings (or at least it's supposed to bring) an inherent notion of BALANCE and RATIONALITY to something that, for all intents and purposes, didn't have it before.

    You talk about the long time fan while looking in the mirror. I can tell you there are a LOT more long time fans, fans like me, who have been playing EA's NHL games (and nearly every other iteration of ice hockey) since 1991) and we've been dreaming for a day when we could play a realistic version of the sport we love.

    Sadly, that day hasn't come yet, but it's close. The push towards more realism also brings many improvements to the game that we never had before, which brings in more accountability from the user. It also brought forth CUSTOMIZATION, the ability to add or substract certain features so that you can shape the game to be anything you want, from the 3 minutes, braindead, dangle-fairies, 10 shots and 20 goal fests you love to the most hardcore 20 minutes, 20 shots, 1 goal per side, 200 passes and 80 face off ordeal people like ME are looking for.


    Cool, I'm sure there are literally dozens of people like you. The rest of us just want to play a video game.
  • "I know this is going to come off as extremely rude, but I just don't care what the reasoning is. The game played great before and now it doesn't. The choice was made to put TPS in the game, and the choice can be made to take it out, right?"

    Simple, to the point, very accurate.

    Look we just want to have fun, its not necessary for pro TPS fans to get arrogant and defensive (attacking non TPS people by saying we are bad at the game followed by how good they are at the game, etc.). This is a nothing burger.

    The game was more fun, people were happier, its no joke the EASHL crowd would have a daytime team and an evening team running 7 days a week it was that fun and dedicated pre TPS. It was like working two shifts, you get home from work, get online and get the report how the day shift played, then you and other night shift players took over from there.

    The old days were awesome, bring it back!
  • Zeroshift wrote: »

    I know this is going to come off as extremely rude, but I just don't care what the reasoning is. The game played great before and now it doesn't. The choice was made to put TPS in the game, and the choice can be made to take it out, right?

    I feel like this is one of the best responses, and it isn't to put down people that make the game or anything. The game may look more realistic now, but that's it, at the end of the day we are trying to control a hockey player with a stick, there are going to have to be sacrifices, you can only really go so far with 'realism'.
    And if they can make controlling a hockey player with a stick a smooth and responsive experience and not a clunky mess they will have a good game.
  • From what Ben's saying, doesn't seem like their gonna attempt to emulate the old days. It's sad because they lose customers every year. As much as OT has been on EA's **** he's right about the FEEL of the game. When my team gets an amazing connection the game is smooth as hell and I can do what I want. I don't need to anticipate what I want to do and what the opponent is going to based on me having delay.
  • VeNOM2099
    3178 posts Member
    edited November 2016
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    sgiz1 wrote: »
    All responses seem to be geared towards proving realism, but.. nobody is questioning what you are trying to accomplish, we understand you are after realism.

    The issue is realism has had an unintended consequence, it's less fun to play.

    Of course this depends on game modes heavily, offline gamers in particular aren't affected.

    HUT and VS are to some degree.

    However EASHL/OTP are the most affected as that is server based online gaming. This realism is less fun, and more frustrating. Again, much support criteria has been presented to show this to be true, another would be many good players who win a lot at this game complain as well, when did that ever happen? pretty much never! Winning fixes all problems doesn't hold true in this game, many who win are fine with the game as is and claim themselves masters of TPS and the universe (doesn't take many post reads to identify those individuals). However top players in all online modes are expressing frustration and all signs point to TPS and realism.

    Are you saying it is EA's official position that regardless of public/customer opinion EA is rigid on their stance that TPS and realism is here to stay regardless, end of story?

    If that is the case be forewarned, we tried to help bring this game back to life.

    However, please consider more is not better in this case, you had a fun game pre TPS, now its a frustrating simulation (notice I didn't call it a game) games are fun, this realism sim is not fun. (of course I'm speaking in generalities, I'm sure there are plenty who enjoy it) but you know that isn't the point, the point is fewer enjoy it today than pre TPS, that is what we call thru review of the case study, we are taking this game in the wrong direction, something is wrong when it's losing fan fare when it should be atleast maintaining it ( or increasing).

    Please consider a move back to a fun game, what are the possibilities of an EASHL only game mode using pre TPS mechanics?

    Call it NHL11 EASHL remastered!!!

    Let me answer that for you: it's because realism brings (or at least it's supposed to bring) an inherent notion of BALANCE and RATIONALITY to something that, for all intents and purposes, didn't have it before.

    You talk about the long time fan while looking in the mirror. I can tell you there are a LOT more long time fans, fans like me, who have been playing EA's NHL games (and nearly every other iteration of ice hockey) since 1991) and we've been dreaming for a day when we could play a realistic version of the sport we love.

    Sadly, that day hasn't come yet, but it's close. The push towards more realism also brings many improvements to the game that we never had before, which brings in more accountability from the user. It also brought forth CUSTOMIZATION, the ability to add or substract certain features so that you can shape the game to be anything you want, from the 3 minutes, braindead, dangle-fairies, 10 shots and 20 goal fests you love to the most hardcore 20 minutes, 20 shots, 1 goal per side, 200 passes and 80 face off ordeal people like ME are looking for.


    Cool, I'm sure there are literally dozens of people like you. The rest of us just want to play a video game.

    Here you go, Buddy:

    http://www.arcade-museum.com/game_detail.php?game_id=6774
  • sgiz1 wrote: »
    "I know this is going to come off as extremely rude, but I just don't care what the reasoning is. The game played great before and now it doesn't. The choice was made to put TPS in the game, and the choice can be made to take it out, right?"

    Simple, to the point, very accurate.

    Look we just want to have fun, its not necessary for pro TPS fans to get arrogant and defensive (attacking non TPS people by saying we are bad at the game followed by how good they are at the game, etc.). This is a nothing burger.

    The game was more fun, people were happier, its no joke the EASHL crowd would have a daytime team and an evening team running 7 days a week it was that fun and dedicated pre TPS. It was like working two shifts, you get home from work, get online and get the report how the day shift played, then you and other night shift players took over from there.

    The old days were awesome, bring it back!

    I really don't know what else to say. There's overwhelming support for a removal or overhaul of TPS to get something that controls more fluently, and has been for a few years now it feels, yet EA has their heels dug in and refuse to make any changes, claiming that it's for the greater good. If TPS is the direction they're going, and there's no stopping it, I might as well just stop buying the game and coming to this forum because EA doesn't give a ****.

    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    sgiz1 wrote: »
    All responses seem to be geared towards proving realism, but.. nobody is questioning what you are trying to accomplish, we understand you are after realism.

    The issue is realism has had an unintended consequence, it's less fun to play.

    Of course this depends on game modes heavily, offline gamers in particular aren't affected.

    HUT and VS are to some degree.

    However EASHL/OTP are the most affected as that is server based online gaming. This realism is less fun, and more frustrating. Again, much support criteria has been presented to show this to be true, another would be many good players who win a lot at this game complain as well, when did that ever happen? pretty much never! Winning fixes all problems doesn't hold true in this game, many who win are fine with the game as is and claim themselves masters of TPS and the universe (doesn't take many post reads to identify those individuals). However top players in all online modes are expressing frustration and all signs point to TPS and realism.

    Are you saying it is EA's official position that regardless of public/customer opinion EA is rigid on their stance that TPS and realism is here to stay regardless, end of story?

    If that is the case be forewarned, we tried to help bring this game back to life.

    However, please consider more is not better in this case, you had a fun game pre TPS, now its a frustrating simulation (notice I didn't call it a game) games are fun, this realism sim is not fun. (of course I'm speaking in generalities, I'm sure there are plenty who enjoy it) but you know that isn't the point, the point is fewer enjoy it today than pre TPS, that is what we call thru review of the case study, we are taking this game in the wrong direction, something is wrong when it's losing fan fare when it should be atleast maintaining it ( or increasing).

    Please consider a move back to a fun game, what are the possibilities of an EASHL only game mode using pre TPS mechanics?

    Call it NHL11 EASHL remastered!!!

    Let me answer that for you: it's because realism brings (or at least it's supposed to bring) an inherent notion of BALANCE and RATIONALITY to something that, for all intents and purposes, didn't have it before.

    You talk about the long time fan while looking in the mirror. I can tell you there are a LOT more long time fans, fans like me, who have been playing EA's NHL games (and nearly every other iteration of ice hockey) since 1991) and we've been dreaming for a day when we could play a realistic version of the sport we love.

    Sadly, that day hasn't come yet, but it's close. The push towards more realism also brings many improvements to the game that we never had before, which brings in more accountability from the user. It also brought forth CUSTOMIZATION, the ability to add or substract certain features so that you can shape the game to be anything you want, from the 3 minutes, braindead, dangle-fairies, 10 shots and 20 goal fests you love to the most hardcore 20 minutes, 20 shots, 1 goal per side, 200 passes and 80 face off ordeal people like ME are looking for.


    Cool, I'm sure there are literally dozens of people like you. The rest of us just want to play a video game.

    Here you go, Buddy:

    http://www.ebay.ca/itm/NHL-HOCKEY-2-ON-2-OPEN-ICE-CHALLENGE-Original-VIDEO-ARCADE-GAME-Flyer-MIDWAY-/251299824934

    Maybe I should just direct you to your local skating rink?

  • Maybe I should just direct you to your local skating rink?

    Already have that one covered. Thanks!
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    sgiz1 wrote: »
    "and that is why we always say 'fun' is the most subjective thing."

    Its subjective on a year by year snapshot, this is why I've been pushing the case study approach, we have evidence from 09/10/11/12 vs. 13/14/15/16/17, Each individual year you can claim a subjective claim, however when all evidence is weighted as a whole, and I've been here thru it all, when used as a case study the subjective becomes objective. Pre TPS attitude/enjoyment was better than post TPS.

    This is why I'm starting to lean towards a discussion on two different games, since changing the one game may be an unpopular decision among EA DEVS. Can we get a classic vision control and no TPS EASHL/OTP mode or game release? This way the core game, if that is the will of EA to keep TPS and realism, isn't affected and both parties will be happy and engaged instead of alienating one group until they just leave and don't come back.

    There are no exclusive licenses. If there is room in the market for multiple hockey games, I am sure that someone will build one and take that part of the market share. It isn't cost effective for one team to build two different games with different locomotion/animation systems. You want to build and improve on one that does the best job of achieving the overall vision for the product. Right now, we are a licensed game based on realism and authenticity. Would we love for everyone to feel more agency in our games? Of course; but these changes weren't done to try and make you mad or to decrease your fun... They were done with intent to continue to innovate in the space and make a more immersive product. For a sports game, authenticity and immersion are two huge pieces are what people attribute to fun.

    We do however know that within our current game mechanics, we have the ability to tune the game differently. It may be possible to open up online gameplay to be played on those different settings or custom presets shared amongst the community as I have said but I don't think you would see many companies building two completely different versions of a game these days.

    And for what it is worth, we aren't alienating you -- I am here listening to what you have to say.
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer

    I know this is going to come off as extremely rude, but I just don't care what the reasoning is. The game played great before and now it doesn't. The choice was made to put TPS in the game, and the choice can be made to take it out, right?

    I guess that is the difference between you and I. I care about the reasoning more than anything, otherwise we are making blind decisions.

    And yes, anything is possible. You could also join the team and help build a better skating engine or start a kickstarter and build your own game. There are more factors that go into something beyond what is possible.

  • NHLDev wrote: »

    I know this is going to come off as extremely rude, but I just don't care what the reasoning is. The game played great before and now it doesn't. The choice was made to put TPS in the game, and the choice can be made to take it out, right?

    I guess that is the difference between you and I. I care about the reasoning more than anything, otherwise we are making blind decisions.

    And yes, anything is possible. You could also join the team and help build a better skating engine or start a kickstarter and build your own game. There are more factors that go into something beyond what is possible.

    Cool, guess I'm not buying this game anymore then. Thanks!
  • So basically TPS and all of its negative aspects aren't going anywhere? We're never going to see vision control come back to what it was and have control over out facing movements? Cool story. Guess I finally have my confirmation that I don't need to waste my time on these forums anymore.
  • NHLDev wrote: »

    I know this is going to come off as extremely rude, but I just don't care what the reasoning is. The game played great before and now it doesn't. The choice was made to put TPS in the game, and the choice can be made to take it out, right?

    I guess that is the difference between you and I. I care about the reasoning more than anything, otherwise we are making blind decisions.

    And yes, anything is possible. You could also join the team and help build a better skating engine or start a kickstarter and build your own game. There are more factors that go into something beyond what is possible.

    Cool, guess I'm not buying this game anymore then. Thanks!

    Join the club, that's about the closest response we're getting to a straightforward answer that TPS isn't going anywhere.
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