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If this isn't ice tilt, I don't know what is

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  • eric57664
    240 posts Member
    edited December 2016
    Assisted_6 wrote: »
    I don't get the argument from some people in here saying "it's not ice tilt, it's bad programming". That makes zero sense.

    The "bad programming" which leads to situations that gives 1 team an advantage over another due to inconsistent gameplay is in fact "ice tilt". Whether ice tilt is intentionally programmed into the game, or if it's accidental bad programming that leads to that feeling makes no difference, there is still one team that benefits from it during the game which increases their chances of winning.

    People think that when others mention "ice tilt" they are saying nothing more than "oh ea rigged that game from the start to make us lose", which isn't the case. It's 100% based on the inconsistencies in the game which yes, is bad programming but also considered ice tilt. If someone is skating straight at you and you poke the puck off 4x in a row, but then the 5th time in that exact situation they maintain possession after you throw a well timed/positioned poke and score, the game rewarded the wrong person. If you are in a lane to intercept a cross crease and pick off 2 In a row, then the 3rd one gets through you while in position, again that's inconsistent programming which can be game changing and determine a win or a loss.

    Certain things in this game need to either work all the time, or none of the time. Until the game consistently rewards the player that should be rewarded. Ice tilt will always exist whether it's intentionally programmed in or not, it exists currently in one form or another that rewards people who shouldn't be rewarded too often.

    See, you are someone that doesn't know how the game 'actually' works. When you say 2 of 3 cross creases are broken up and that is inconsistent, I believe the opposite. It is consistent but based on one thing, attributes. We are playing a game that is based on characters that have attributes and with those attributes, you have to play the game differently in almost every situation.

    For example: you're defending a 2 on 1. You are Duncan Keith and the players coming down on that rush are Matt Martin and Cal Clutterbuck. They try to cross crease it but you break up the pass because you are in the passing lane. Perfect. That's the first 2 times. Now for the 3rd time, you are Mike Green and the players coming down are Evgeni Malkin and Sidney Crosby. You are in the exact same spot as the 1st two times and they make a pass at the exact same time cross crease but this time, the puck goes past you and the one timer scores a goal. For you that's inconsistent? No. Thats is very consistent to what attributes do. That's the difference. Attributes control the game.

    And that's just one example. If you're fatigued while someone else is fresh, you may not break up a pass one time, regardless if you're in perfect position, and that's what makes this game consistent.

    If you were to break up all three cross ice passes on those 2on1's with those players I mentioned above, then you would have inconsistency as the attributes are not doing what they are suppose to be doing.

    Same with the poking example you made. You are Mike Green on the 5 attempt and the puck carrier is Crosby. You think a well timed poke will break up the play? Not if he has higher puck control than your stick checking attribute. There will be times where it doesn't go your way because Crosby can deke and control the puck through stick checks.

    Whether you agree with that or not, that how the game works and that is what makes it consistent.

    What you are talking about is Blades of Steel on NES where you're just controlling a body and there is no real depth within in. Everything is a solid object. But that's not real hockey even though that is consistent within its hockey game world, but not this world because we do have attributes that dictate a lot more of the game.
  • BSDShoes
    114 posts Member
    edited December 2016
    Puck physics and deflection is beyond stupid in this game, puck feels more like a pinball than an oddly shaped object the puck is supposed to be.

    And player movement feels like they're 300lbs just learning to skate. And worst of all, goalies has practically no rebound control.

    Another irritating component I've noticed is winning 3-4 games in a row in franchise mode and not having a single chance of winning the next game, tried the same match 7 times all with losses- however auto sim got me a win. Glad I didn't buy this game, been playing it on my neighbor's PS4.
  • @eric57664

    Your assumption is incorrect. @Bmh245 has already posted many videos showing players with some of the HIGHEST attributes in the game simply cough up a puck or blatantly ignore a puck that's just sitting in front of him. And they were fresh from the bench, not tired.

    So saying "the attributes" control the game is just plain wrong. Attributes do play a factor, but not as much as we would like.

    If you ask me, I've been a firm believer that this game's probabilities are messed up. I think they're set up to deliver a more dynamic, free form game, but the problem is that it doesn't deliver on the premise. Too often pucks will magically "deflect" right to a stick blade so that it avoids making the user frustrated at having to chase a loose puck. Or it the puck physics will simply take a dip and you'll see the most ridiculous bounces ever programmed in a videogame, just so the puck can always be direct towards the back of the net.

    The game, when you're playing with AI, feels contrived. The AI is obviously abysmally bad and can never compete with a real human, so things are "skewed" towards helping the AI keep up.
  • 5natchHunt3e
    30 posts Member
    edited December 2016
    DanneyG wrote: »
    COGSx86 wrote: »
    Really a puck battle no one could get control of it and it deflected in. Funny no one gets upset when it goes in for them but cry ice tilt when they get a bad goals against. It's a video game it will never be perfect.

    1109eft.jpg

    if you guys think for one minute thats how puck battles happen in the NHL you guys are either blind, dumb or just ignorant to get a rise out of people.

    I have NEVER seen a puck battle in hockey where 3 players and a goalie cannot see to even TOUCH the puck inside a 2 foot radius. Astonishing puck skills on display.

    Wait I take that back, I have seen this.

    When my 6 year old plays and they all fall around the puck trying to get it but too **** excited.

    Maybe this is the hockey EA is looking for.

    EASports presents Squirts Hockey League!

    Call it programming ... there is programming in this game that kicks in during moments to keep this game close, to add excitement, to make the game fun for those that simply do NOT know hockey.

    The casual fan.

    This is ice tilt to weird goals happen. Just don't forget it's a video game it's not real life.


  • Bmh245
    905 posts Member
    edited December 2016
    eric57664 wrote: »
    See, you are someone that doesn't know how the game 'actually' works. When you say 2 of 3 cross creases are broken up and that is inconsistent, I believe the opposite. It is consistent but based on one thing, attributes. We are playing a game that is based on characters that have attributes and with those attributes, you have to play the game differently in almost every situation.

    No. Thats is very consistent to what attributes do. That's the difference. Attributes control the game.


    Whether you agree with that or not, that how the game works and that is what makes it consistent.

    What you are talking about is Blades of Steel on NES where you're just controlling a body and there is no real depth within in. Everything is a solid object. But that's not real hockey even though that is consistent within its hockey game world, but not this world because we do have attributes that dictate a lot more of the game.

    I have no idea what you're talking about here. In real hockey, everything is a solid object. It's only in this game that sticks are sometimes solid, sometimes immaterial, only in this game that pucks sometimes bounce off skates and sometimes go through them, only in this game that putting your stick blade right on the puck sometimes knocks it away and sometimes has no effect at all.

    And the inconsistency in physics that the clip in the OP showcases is absolutely not the result of attributes. If it was, then Ben wouldn't be on these boards saying, as he has many times, "that shouldn't have happened." And if it was the result of attributes, you wouldn't see the highest-rated players in the game be dealing with these issues. But they do, all the time.

    Here's Ron Hextall, 94-rated goalie. Weak shot from an 87 shooter, right at his pads. It turns into a goal. Why? Because the puck literally passes through his pads.



    You really want to try to argue that's because of Hextall's attributes?

    Here, James van Riemsdyk, 88-rated player, cornered by a 94-rated defenseman. JVR's stick is on his right side. He has no room to the left. Puck is behind him. But game allows him to pick up the puck, and take it away from the 94-rated defenseman. How does this happen? By not just letting the stick go through the boards (which we accept as part of the game), but actually letting his own stick go through his own body, which is physically impossible but also the only way the game could figure out how to let JVR get the puck:



    Here's a 95-rated slapshot accuracy shooter whiffing on a simple point-to-point pass. Does he whiff because of bad timing? No, he whiffs because the puck hits an invisible wall just before it gets to his stick, and bounces back slightly.



    You really think attributes explain that magic puck?

    Here, 94-rated defenseman and 94-rated goalie both try to knock away a puck.. The goalie's stick vanishes beneath the ice. The defenseman's stick blade makes contact with the puck, but just goes right through it:



    Here, by contrast, offensive player has 95 puck control, 95 hand-eye, facing an 85 defender. Yet somehow he miraculously has the puck poked away by a player whose stick never comes anywhere near the puck. I mean, the stick doesn't even come close to touching the puck, and yet it's miraculously knocked away:



    Again, you really think attributes explain that?

    Look, this game is riddled with inconsistent physics. Things regularly happen that aren't just physically impossible, but also violate the game's own physical rules. That's not because of attributes. It's not because the game is trying to help one team over the other, or keep weaker teams in the game.
    It's because of bad programming. That's what we should be complaining about, and trying to improve.




  • KoryDub wrote: »
    Bmh245 wrote: »
    I have no idea what you're talking about here. In real hockey, everything is a solid object.

    I think the point @eric57664 is trying to make is that consistency is easily achievable in a game like Blades of Steel - or even a game like NHL 94. Each of those games has a fraction upon a fraction of the variables we see in today's more powerful hockey engine.

    To blatantly state that the issues, valid or not, are due to 'bad programming' is ridiculous.

    Bugs happen. Glitches happen. It's in no way a result of inconsistent programming or a gaming engine that's out to screw up your life.

    The team knows about these bugs, and strives to get them out of the game as much as they can. They're not 'bad programmers'. Time to stop with these claims and move your narrative to, "the game does things I don't like" rather than questioning the ability of a very talented development team.

    I don't think BMH meant that the programmers are "bad" per se... I think it's more, as you said, that he means that there are bugs and glitches in the game which make it inconsistent. One game everything works as you would expect. Another match and a few things go awry. And then you get that one match where everything goes to Heck in a Handbasket (btw, "Heck" is a suburb of H3LL, just over Misery and Despair Bridge :trollface: )
  • KoryDub wrote: »
    Bmh245 wrote: »
    I have no idea what you're talking about here. In real hockey, everything is a solid object.

    I think the point @eric57664 is trying to make is that consistency is easily achievable in a game like Blades of Steel - or even a game like NHL 94. Each of those games has a fraction upon a fraction of the variables we see in today's more powerful hockey engine.

    To blatantly state that the issues, valid or not, are due to 'bad programming' is ridiculous.

    Bugs happen. Glitches happen. It's in no way a result of inconsistent programming or a gaming engine that's out to screw up your life.

    The team knows about these bugs, and strives to get them out of the game as much as they can. They're not 'bad programmers'. Time to stop with these claims and move your narrative to, "the game does things I don't like" rather than questioning the ability of a very talented development team.

    It's hard for consumers to accept that after 3 failed versions of EA NHL on next-gen consoles...I won't claim that I, personally, could program a better game...but it does seem like a moderately-trained monkey would've seen some of these issues PRE-RELEASE and fixed at least SOME of the coding in this game that frustrates players.
  • KoryDub wrote: »
    Bmh245 wrote: »
    I have no idea what you're talking about here. In real hockey, everything is a solid object.

    I think the point @eric57664 is trying to make is that consistency is easily achievable in a game like Blades of Steel - or even a game like NHL 94. Each of those games has a fraction upon a fraction of the variables we see in today's more powerful hockey engine.

    To blatantly state that the issues, valid or not, are due to 'bad programming' is ridiculous.

    Bugs happen. Glitches happen. It's in no way a result of inconsistent programming or a gaming engine that's out to screw up your life.

    The team knows about these bugs, and strives to get them out of the game as much as they can. They're not 'bad programmers'. Time to stop with these claims and move your narrative to, "the game does things I don't like" rather than questioning the ability of a very talented development team.

    Games like Blades of Steel were played on consoles that had a fraction upon a fraction of the processing power that the One and the PS4 have. So it's no excuse to say that today's game is more complex.

    As for the endless flow of "bugs" and "glitches," if it's not bad programming, what is it? Some games, like this one, have lots of bugs and glitches. Some don't. You really think coding has nothing to do with that?

    And I'm so weary of hearing all this stuff about how many variables the game has. The developers are the one who keep making the decision to add more and more variables to the game before they actually have ensured that these variables work well. They're the ones who chose to add 12-person collisions to the game in NHL 15, without making any meaningful changes to the AI, which left us with random collisions all over the ice, and an endless flow of uncalled interference penalties and AI goaltender-interference penalties. They're the ones who chose to add seamless puck pickups before they were ready for prime time. And, above all, they're the ones who chose to migrate TPS to the new-gen consoles without ever figuring out how to get the AI to simply face the play, which left us, in NHL 15, with AI players who constantly turned their back on the play. Making the decision to put new features into the game before they're ready for release is bad programming.

    And I haven't even touched on the most egregious aspect of the bad programming in this year's game: the absolutely dismal AI. Let's just look at one example, which happens in every 1v1 game. If, after you clear the puck from your own zone, the offensive team curls around in the neutral zone and then re-enters, they will almost always be able to catch a defenseman skating blissfully up to his own blue line, completely unaware that the other team is attacking his goal:



    My defenseman here is 94-rated. So what's he doing? He literally has no idea that there's a guy with the puck skating into the zone until that guy is right on top of him. And don't tell me to switch. I did switch, as you see, and the game sent me to the player behind the puck carrier. By the time it switches me to the defenseman, it's too late.

    Like I said, this happens constantly. There's no reason for it -- obviously, the CPU knows where the puck is at every moment, so there's no reason the AI defenseman can't. It's not realistic -- that's not how NHL defensemen act when the puck goes into the neutral zone. And this is not a glitch or a bug -- someone wrote the code telling defensemen to skate up to the blue line like that, and wrote the code that makes totally unaware of where the puck is. (Or, when it comes to awareness, someone made the decision to try to rely on machine learning to shape AI behavior, which, if that's what EA is doing, they really need to rethink until they've gotten a lot better at machine learning.) That's bad programming. Period.
  • You know what that is??? That my friend is hilarious... why could the defenders not clear the puck out...sticks look like they are going through the puck...seems to always be the case... in your zone you cant grab the puck but your opponents can with ease from anywhere... the animation was amusing as well... the offensive player didn't even pass it...just teleported off his stick... that was another programmed scripted play IMO
  • ice tilt?


    ... I call that being unlucky, but whatever floats your boat
  • I've been away for the last day or so and haven't had a chance to reply to some of the comments on here, but to clarify a few things:

    1) This is an EASHL game.

    2) I was the center in front of the net, I really didn't have any impact on this play. Nobody was playing goalie or defence, those were all AI players. The only human players were the two forwards yellow.

    My club is admittedly not that great, and have routinely won and lost close games because of bounces around the net. I have accepted the fact that bounces are a part of this years game and they work equally for and against me. I just don't understand this goal, as the puck teleported to a teammates stick in front of the net when no stick could possibly push the puck in that direction, then instead of receiving the puck, it deflects off his stick just inside the post of his own net. I can't figure out any possible explanation for the puck acting the way it did, so yes I do side with ice tilt over unlucky. Unlucky to me would be if my defenseman scores after picking up the puck next to the net; which does happen frequently, but is at least has an explanation for how the puck ended up in the net. This isn't meant to be a rant or anything along those lines, but instead to show why some people think ice tilt exists. I think this is a pretty difficult video to explain otherwise.
  • Assisted_6 wrote: »
    You really want to play a game and lose because even though you read the play perfectly and did everything you possible could, you lost and can be ok with your opponent making
    the wrong decision just because you were controlling "Mike Green"? Give me a break

    Here I disagree with you. This is an attribute-based game, at least in 1v1 modes, and people want attributes to matter. A wrist shot by Ovechkin has a better chance of going in than a wrist shot by Eric Fehr, even if Eric Fehr settles himself and does everything perfectly, and that's exactly as it should be. A hit by Victor Hedman is more likely to lay someone out than a hit by Johnny Gaudreau, even if Gaudreau does everything perfectly, and that's exactly as it should be. And I have no problem with players with higher defensive attributes being more likely to poke the puck away when poking from less-than-ideal positions, or finding it easier to pick off hard passes.

    The problem with clips like the one OP posted, and like the many I've posted, is that the screwed-up physics have nothing to do with attributes -- in fact, in many cases you can see the game logic overriding attributes, so that 94-rated defensemen have their stick blades go through pucks, or vanish beneath the ice, or 95 shooters whiff on wide-open one-timers. The problem isn't attributes affecting outcomes. The problem is the game overriding attributes, physics, and everything else in order to get to the outcome it's decided to create.
  • Dixonyu
    675 posts Member
    edited December 2016
    Lol... Attributes... One there is no real attribute gap in this game ... Most players are inflated stats to hit a silly overall Patrick Kane at 92 def awareness is a prime example... The attribute system is a joke ... Only a handful of players in the NHL deserve a 90+ shot , passing , deleking fighting rating ... I still can't believe Crosby and Datsyuk are 75 fighting rating , ya real good scouting there ... The average player attributes need to drop, once you hit 85 in a category you are basically as good as a 99.

    As I keep saying with so many random factors and automation with this game, cross checking being a new one this year, elbowing, stick breaks, puck pick ups, goalie saves are all bad animations easily exploitable , the AI who gets the better AI.... Can keep going . But when the devs add all this animation and automation they create illusions of momentum, ice tilt sliders ( ice tilt refers to puck luck which is 100% real ) are all self created by the devs ... This is what happens when they build a luck based game , not a skill based game . They need to do away with all automation that can be feasibly made into manual controls , give the user the control over the game , and get it out of the hands of this terrible artificial intelligence, relying on a game to do things for you is just stupid , especially when you should be in control yourself.


    Simply put ice tilt sliders are an illusion created by a bad dev team , that doesn't want the challenge of making things in the users controls so they take the easy way out and force us to rely on the game to do it for us... Really as everyone says this game is almost 10 years behind 2k, still ... It's pathetic , it truly shows this dev teams lack of ability, maybe it's their bosses telling them to rush and just give them a product they can put on shelves and make their paychecks back.
  • Those video clips posted by BMH are pretty clear evidence that attributes mean nothing when the game's physics (or lack thereof) take over. Or the game animations take over, whatever you wanna attribute it to. At the end of the day, it is clear something is overriding attributes and etc.

  • Pr0xY00 wrote: »
    It's not Ice tilt. it's a glitch/bug/bad programming.

    You're east bound and down.

    kenny-powers-digital-marketer.jpg
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