Still, it falls into the category where this game tries too much to decide what to do for the user. When Ben chimes in on these issues, he talks about how it seems like we want more assistance in certain situations, when it's actually that we DON'T want assistance at all. I don't want the game to take over and "assist" me by "guessing" what I want to do. I want to move left. Make me move left. I'm facing south, I get the puck behind my net near the right post. I press RIGHT on the joystick. The game decides to spin me CLOCKWISE towards the left, bringing the puck into the side of the net and collide with the post/goalie. There shouldn't be any instance where the game can decide for the users. Especially when the game gets it WRONG more often than not.
I agree that whatever algorithm the game is using to choose whether a player should spin or just go directly in the direction he's aiming is totally screwy, and I've been complaining about it for the past couple of years. But the hitch problem is something different -- in the case of the spin, the game is at least trying to get you in the direction you're aiming the controller (it's just choosing to get you there by spinning, because it thinks that's the quickest route). In the clip with #6 above, by contrast, the controller is never pointing in the direction where the player moves back. To me, it feels like this is a consequence of the poor way TPS handles weight shifts -- it's like the player can't move in one direction without first swinging back in the other.
The game DECIDES too many things for us. That's the main problem. TPS or not, there shouldn't be so many instances where we can't control what we're doing because we have to wait out and let the game play out an animation that we NEVER wanted in the first place.
QFT. This game has been deciding too much for us ever since current gen. Now the real question is, "Why is the game always deciding things for us?" To close the skill gap maybe?
Why every year now since 15 does it feel like we're fighting the game engine itself more than our own opponent? Just making a wide open pass, switching to the player near the puck, or turning in the direction you want is such a chore! Hmm...
It doesn't matter what new feature we get as long as this game engine continues to take the controller out of your hands during games.
When Ben chimes in on these issues, he talks about how it seems like we want more assistance in certain situations, when it's actually that we DON'T want assistance at all.
Make sure not to take one thing in context and then use it as a generalization for everything.
I said that in a goalie thread where goalies are asking with the controller to go to their left but still wanting the goalie to plant and make a save to their right. In that context, they say they are getting punished for tracking the puck, yet if they did stop or move to the right, they wouldn't be getting an against the grain save.
In these skating clips, I have seen Bmh post them, many of them are the same issue. A lot of them have to do with receiving a puck in our old pickup system that still plays in some cases for coverage and has to reset back to your center/glide position before you are able to transition out. Best case would be if from the pickup point you could blend right out into skating but after an attempt during production on NHL 17, I felt it actually made things worse and more floaty, so we reverted the change.
We are very aware of these issues and always looking at ways to improve them. When I say I like the general idea of TPS, people quote me as saying 'it is the best thing since sliced bread'. The over-exaggerations is what frustrates other people as they think that means I don't care to address the issues that remain in the system.
Context is king is a lot of these conversations.
Thanks for the videos. Unfortunately in this case, I don't believe there is anything new here that hasn't been logged before. I know from each of your sides, you will want to post the videos until they are fixed. We still have a bug and improvements database that is all sorted by priority and issues don't go away until solved. It is just that some of them are harder to fix without bigger knock ons so others sometimes get fixed first until we have a solid solution.
When Ben chimes in on these issues, he talks about how it seems like we want more assistance in certain situations, when it's actually that we DON'T want assistance at all.
Make sure not to take one thing in context and then use it as a generalization for everything.
I said that in a goalie thread where goalies are asking with the controller to go to their left but still wanting the goalie to plant and make a save to their right. In that context, they say they are getting punished for tracking the puck, yet if they did stop or move to the right, they wouldn't be getting an against the grain save.
Actually, you had talked about players wanting assistance on their shots when we were discussing shots on an empty net going wide when it appears that we are aiming for it. It was also a theme in other discussions as well. However, that was on the old forums, which sadly don't exist anymore.
But I have a good memory. Like a steel trap!
As for fixing the issues, well I always say a compromise is better than nothing.
When Ben chimes in on these issues, he talks about how it seems like we want more assistance in certain situations, when it's actually that we DON'T want assistance at all.
Make sure not to take one thing in context and then use it as a generalization for everything.
I said that in a goalie thread where goalies are asking with the controller to go to their left but still wanting the goalie to plant and make a save to their right. In that context, they say they are getting punished for tracking the puck, yet if they did stop or move to the right, they wouldn't be getting an against the grain save.
In these skating clips, I have seen Bmh post them, many of them are the same issue. A lot of them have to do with receiving a puck in our old pickup system that still plays in some cases for coverage and has to reset back to your center/glide position before you are able to transition out. Best case would be if from the pickup point you could blend right out into skating but after an attempt during production on NHL 17, I felt it actually made things worse and more floaty, so we reverted the change.
We are very aware of these issues and always looking at ways to improve them. When I say I like the general idea of TPS, people quote me as saying 'it is the best thing since sliced bread'. The over-exaggerations is what frustrates other people as they think that means I don't care to address the issues that remain in the system.
Context is king is a lot of these conversations.
Thanks for the videos. Unfortunately in this case, I don't believe there is anything new here that hasn't been logged before. I know from each of your sides, you will want to post the videos until they are fixed. We still have a bug and improvements database that is all sorted by priority and issues don't go away until solved. It is just that some of them are harder to fix without bigger knock ons so others sometimes get fixed first until we have a solid solution.
If that's the case, I expect this to be fixed for 18.
We are very aware of these issues and always looking at ways to improve them. When I say I like the general idea of TPS, people quote me as saying 'it is the best thing since sliced bread'. The over-exaggerations is what frustrates other people as they think that means I don't care to address the issues that remain in the system.
Thanks for the videos. Unfortunately in this case, I don't believe there is anything new here that hasn't been logged before. I know from each of your sides, you will want to post the videos until they are fixed. We still have a bug and improvements database that is all sorted by priority and issues don't go away until solved. It is just that some of them are harder to fix without bigger knock ons so others sometimes get fixed first until we have a solid solution.
I think most of us understand this. However it all goes to prove the point in this thread that some are making, and that is, the current skating engine isn't good enough, and it isn't improving fast enough. We know there is only so much you can fix, and the engine can only be so good. Given that, at some point, if it's still not working, you eventually have to give up on it, right?
I'm not saying we are there yet, but at the rate this has improved we've got to be coming close to it.
All the more frustrating is the fact that the engine was much better last gen. I still liked NHL 13 skating the best. I think pivoting from a standstill and acceleration needed some work, but aside from that I feel it controlled the best. Here we are in NHL 17, and I think it feels clunkier, less responsive, and worse yet, the slow pivots are back again!
There have been some nice additions to the engine, such as the precision skating, but I just don't think they work well in this game. On defense, they are too cumbersome to use, and to much effort for what amounts to taking one step to the right. On offense, aside from behind your net or waiting for a one timer in the slot, there is no use for them. Everyone just charges the puck carrier in this game. You don't have a chance to stand still and then take a sidestep to the right or left.
Another factor, I think the engine relies a lot on context, and needing to read inputs. Like if I press right on the LS, the game needs to pause a beat to see if I tapped it or if I'm holding it full tilt to the right. That pause makes everything feel so sluggish.
I don't know, maybe you guys have a grand 4 year plan with this game, but right now, it doesn't seem like it's heading anywhere. And I know it's not exactly fair for you guys, some of which haven't been on this game forever, but to us, this series has a history of introducing a new feature, it doesn't work well, and instead of fixing it next year, they move on to the next new feature that won't work well. It's hard to have faith that the skating is going to improve much any time soon.
If it made the same strides between 17 and 18 that it made from 15 through 17, the skating next year is still going to be a huge issue.
And this is just one part of the game that needs work. I feel like you are wasting your time spinning your wheels to make incremental improvements to something that is still far from an acceptable level and the rest of the game is suffering yearly for it.
To me, if I could have it my way, I would prefer a realistic skating engine like this, if it worked, if it was responsive, if I didn't feel floaty, or out of control. But I just don't believe it's possible. Not with the size of your team and the budget and the quick release schedule. That is why I say I would rather have a crappy skating engine that works than a great one that doesn't.
We are very aware of these issues and always looking at ways to improve them. When I say I like the general idea of TPS, people quote me as saying 'it is the best thing since sliced bread'. The over-exaggerations is what frustrates other people as they think that means I don't care to address the issues that remain in the system.
Thanks for the videos. Unfortunately in this case, I don't believe there is anything new here that hasn't been logged before. I know from each of your sides, you will want to post the videos until they are fixed. We still have a bug and improvements database that is all sorted by priority and issues don't go away until solved. It is just that some of them are harder to fix without bigger knock ons so others sometimes get fixed first until we have a solid solution.
I think most of us understand this. However it all goes to prove the point in this thread that some are making, and that is, the current skating engine isn't good enough, and it isn't improving fast enough. We know there is only so much you can fix, and the engine can only be so good. Given that, at some point, if it's still not working, you eventually have to give up on it, right?
I'm not saying we are there yet, but at the rate this has improved we've got to be coming close to it.
All the more frustrating is the fact that the engine was much better last gen. I still liked NHL 13 skating the best. I think pivoting from a standstill and acceleration needed some work, but aside from that I feel it controlled the best. Here we are in NHL 17, and I think it feels clunkier, less responsive, and worse yet, the slow pivots are back again!
There have been some nice additions to the engine, such as the precision skating, but I just don't think they work well in this game. On defense, they are too cumbersome to use, and to much effort for what amounts to taking one step to the right. On offense, aside from behind your net or waiting for a one timer in the slot, there is no use for them. Everyone just charges the puck carrier in this game. You don't have a chance to stand still and then take a sidestep to the right or left.
Another factor, I think the engine relies a lot on context, and needing to read inputs. Like if I press right on the LS, the game needs to pause a beat to see if I tapped it or if I'm holding it full tilt to the right. That pause makes everything feel so sluggish.
I don't know, maybe you guys have a grand 4 year plan with this game, but right now, it doesn't seem like it's heading anywhere. And I know it's not exactly fair for you guys, some of which haven't been on this game forever, but to us, this series has a history of introducing a new feature, it doesn't work well, and instead of fixing it next year, they move on to the next new feature that won't work well. It's hard to have faith that the skating is going to improve much any time soon.
If it made the same strides between 17 and 18 that it made from 15 through 17, the skating next year is still going to be a huge issue.
And this is just one part of the game that needs work. I feel like you are wasting your time spinning your wheels to make incremental improvements to something that is still far from an acceptable level and the rest of the game is suffering yearly for it.
To me, if I could have it my way, I would prefer a realistic skating engine like this, if it worked, if it was responsive, if I didn't feel floaty, or out of control. But I just don't believe it's possible. Not with the size of your team and the budget and the quick release schedule. That is why I say I would rather have a **** skating engine that works than a great one that doesn't.
Here's a perfect demonstration of everything that Workin was talking about in his OP. I win the faceoff back to my LD. I tell him to spin to his left, away from the onrushing defenders (who are able to be on my guy immediately, in a totally unrealistic fahsion). I do this exactly right, rolling the stick. But he doesn't turn. Instead, he hitches, goes back and forth, and of course gets stripped of the puck, leading to a cheap breakaway:
This is not a complicated play. It's a play any NHL defenseman would be able to make without a moment's thought. And the player -- a 94 skater, by the way -- isn't able to do it. He can't just follow my command and spin away. And needless to say, that entire play felt terrible from a user-experience point of view, which is exactly what Workin has been harping on -- TPS feels crappy. I was fighting the controls the entire time, trying to get the player to do something and watching him not do it. Total helplessness, when what a video game should give you -- and what this game used to give you -- was a feeling of total control.
Where NHL DEV and EA are missing the mark is to them they view it as "yep, not great, we are working on making it better" but don't realize we are playing this game right now!!! and paid good money to do so!!! To them it's a minor thing to be discussed and fixed over time, but fail to realize to those of us who play on a daily basis (or used to) this is deal breaker issues here! The game is frustrating as heck!! in that video above, what if that was an EASHL game with 1 minute left in the 3rd period and you were leading by one? Your team wins the faceoff (good), Dman receives it clean (good), Dman shields puck to turn away from defender (good) but TPS makes him hitch which holds the puck out right for the defenders to take the puck from the Dman then goes in for a game tying breakaway goal? That is the moment right there where this Dman and probably the entire EASHL team just shuts off the xbox/ps right then and there taking the loss even though its a tie game because the game should have been over with a win. Why should people get punished by bad TPS in these games? Its not user mistake, if it were users can live with it, but when you do the right things but the game/TPS doesn't let you do it and that results in something bad happening, that is frustrating and a problem. This stuff happens all over the ice all game long every single game and EA says "we are working on improving it" really? Its not working, you know this, you have acknowledged it, we all know it, do something now!!
Here's a perfect demonstration of everything that Workin was talking about in his OP. I win the faceoff back to my LD. I tell him to spin to his left, away from the onrushing defenders (who are able to be on my guy immediately, in a totally unrealistic fahsion). I do this exactly right, rolling the stick. But he doesn't turn. Instead, he hitches, goes back and forth, and of course gets stripped of the puck, leading to a cheap breakaway:
This is not a complicated play. It's a play any NHL defenseman would be able to make without a moment's thought. And the player -- a 94 skater, by the way -- isn't able to do it. He can't just follow my command and spin away. And needless to say, that entire play felt terrible from a user-experience point of view, which is exactly what Workin has been harping on -- TPS feels ****. I was fighting the controls the entire time, trying to get the player to do something and watching him not do it. Total helplessness, when what a video game should give you -- and what this game used to give you -- was a feeling of total control.
I cannot count the number of times that this EXACT situation happens to me during the course of a game. Your skater is truly helpless in this situation ONLY because he won't do what you tell him to on your controller. In this video it looks like (based on footing) he had three attempts at turning his body and stick away from traffic, but for whatever reason the game just won't let him do it. WHY EA??!!!
Here's a perfect demonstration of everything that Workin was talking about in his OP. I win the faceoff back to my LD. I tell him to spin to his left, away from the onrushing defenders (who are able to be on my guy immediately, in a totally unrealistic fahsion). I do this exactly right, rolling the stick. But he doesn't turn. Instead, he hitches, goes back and forth, and of course gets stripped of the puck, leading to a cheap breakaway:
This is not a complicated play. It's a play any NHL defenseman would be able to make without a moment's thought. And the player -- a 94 skater, by the way -- isn't able to do it. He can't just follow my command and spin away. And needless to say, that entire play felt terrible from a user-experience point of view, which is exactly what Workin has been harping on -- TPS feels ****. I was fighting the controls the entire time, trying to get the player to do something and watching him not do it. Total helplessness, when what a video game should give you -- and what this game used to give you -- was a feeling of total control.
Yep, Good example of the clunkiness. This is a good example of the **** we have had to deal with for 5 years.
From a user's perspective, the feeling of pushing your joystick in a direction and having your player 'hitch' and do something you don't tell them is terrible. Things like this happen, and more so in player lock modes than 1v1, every single game, multiple times. It's garbage.
Can you combat things like this with better controller movement? Yep, you can, but it starts to feel tedious and chore-like over time.
As for the video, you can avoid things like the first 'hitch' by using your RS. The second hitch is in fact done because you moved the RS, but you weren't turned around far enough so instead of turning around to forward skating you remained back skating.
Just fix this crap and the game will be pretty good.
Here's a perfect demonstration of everything that Workin was talking about in his OP. I win the faceoff back to my LD. I tell him to spin to his left, away from the onrushing defenders (who are able to be on my guy immediately, in a totally unrealistic fahsion). I do this exactly right, rolling the stick. But he doesn't turn. Instead, he hitches, goes back and forth, and of course gets stripped of the puck, leading to a cheap breakaway:
This is not a complicated play. It's a play any NHL defenseman would be able to make without a moment's thought. And the player -- a 94 skater, by the way -- isn't able to do it. He can't just follow my command and spin away. And needless to say, that entire play felt terrible from a user-experience point of view, which is exactly what Workin has been harping on -- TPS feels ****. I was fighting the controls the entire time, trying to get the player to do something and watching him not do it. Total helplessness, when what a video game should give you -- and what this game used to give you -- was a feeling of total control.
I tried to replicate this through numerous attempts rolling from left to right in both directions away from the faceoff dot and the only way I could get the player to cancel his pivot to forwards was to press vision control. I tried it after regular reaching pickups to forehand and backhand and also after strafe pickups as well. It looks like you are half way into your step to forwards and then he cancels/blends out and goes back to a back skate. It looks very similar to the frames we allowed quicker transitions in our pivots (which was mostly for defenders not wanting to commit to pivots until they have planted that foot)
It then looks like vision control was released (is it possible it was an accidental press so it was an on then off with slight pressure resting on it?) he starts to turn to forwards again but before he plants his right foot, you deke out to your backhand side (left on the right stick in this case) and it puts him in a gliding deke state in the direction that he is closest too). In this case, this is a fault in being too responsive as it sounds like you would have wanted him to finish the pivot, and then go into the backhand deke state.
Here's a perfect demonstration of everything that Workin was talking about in his OP. I win the faceoff back to my LD. I tell him to spin to his left, away from the onrushing defenders (who are able to be on my guy immediately, in a totally unrealistic fahsion). I do this exactly right, rolling the stick. But he doesn't turn. Instead, he hitches, goes back and forth, and of course gets stripped of the puck, leading to a cheap breakaway:
This is not a complicated play. It's a play any NHL defenseman would be able to make without a moment's thought. And the player -- a 94 skater, by the way -- isn't able to do it. He can't just follow my command and spin away. And needless to say, that entire play felt terrible from a user-experience point of view, which is exactly what Workin has been harping on -- TPS feels ****. I was fighting the controls the entire time, trying to get the player to do something and watching him not do it. Total helplessness, when what a video game should give you -- and what this game used to give you -- was a feeling of total control.
I tried to replicate this through numerous attempts rolling from left to right in both directions away from the faceoff dot and the only way I could get the player to cancel his pivot to forwards was to press vision control. I tried it after regular reaching pickups to forehand and backhand and also after strafe pickups as well. It looks like you are half way into your step to forwards and then he cancels/blends out and goes back to a back skate. It looks very similar to the frames we allowed quicker transitions in our pivots (which was mostly for defenders not wanting to commit to pivots until they have planted that foot)
It then looks like vision control was released (is it possible it was an accidental press so it was an on then off with slight pressure resting on it?) he starts to turn to forwards again but before he plants his right foot, you deke out to your backhand side (left on the right stick in this case) and it puts him in a gliding deke state in the direction that he is closest too). In this case, this is a fault in being too responsive as it sounds like you would have wanted him to finish the pivot, and then go into the backhand deke state.
Hey NHL guy, I'd like to add a thing or two to what happened up above. I have also noticed this inability to turn when there are other skaters within stick-length distance of me. I ALWAYS play with auto back-skate turned off but it doesn't seem to matter when there is traffic around you. I think this is more noticeable in your defensive zone when the puck is perfectly zipping around on your opponents stick and you are just trying to face the play or puck properly but can't turn for the life of you.
Ok, lets for the sake of argument all agree that we the users are just not capable of mastering TPS, just not possible. So now we have a skating engine way too advanced for us that nobody can master and EA's response is "keep playing, you will get better with it"???
The point is we've been playing with TPS since NHL 13 and still can't master it, that is your answer right there, TPS must change!!!
@NHLDev as i pointed out to you on twitter a while back, the game simply can't keep up with our thumbs any longer. you need to get the responsiveness back into the controls.
@Bmh245 i would urge you to show future replays in real time, then in slow motion. my bet is you moved your thumb too fast and the engine couldn't handle it.
this was the example i showed to them and we started troubleshooting. after further testing, i found that this only happened when i moved the left stick too fast (twitching). i tested it while skating, gliding, holding the puck forehand/backhand and protecting the puck. it didn't matter what i was doing with other buttons, i was only able to replicate this when i was too fast on the left stick and the game couldn't keep up or tried to shortcut to my input.
@NHLDev as i pointed out to you on twitter a while back, the game simply can't keep up with our thumbs any longer. you need to get the responsiveness back into the controls.
@Bmh245 i would urge you to show future replays in real time, then in slow motion. my bet is you moved your thumb too fast and the engine couldn't handle it.
this was the example i showed to them and we started troubleshooting. after further testing, i found that this only happened when i moved the left stick too fast (twitching). i tested it while skating, gliding, holding the puck forehand/backhand and protecting the puck. it didn't matter what i was doing with other buttons, i was only able to replicate this when i was too fast on the left stick and the game couldn't keep up or tried to shortcut to my input.
@Bmh245 Also orient your dang camera properly so what we see isn't backwards.. No need for that ****.
I don't think this issue of being too fast will ever be any better. Your player has to take time to move like a real hockey player, he can't react in a single frame perfectly to what you want, it would look ridiculous.
@VeNOM2099 Has posted some good clips in the past that illustrate this issue. He was trying to call ice tilt, and getting really angry in the process, but it was simply this issue of moving his LS too fast for his player to keep up resulting in his player moving weird.
"my bet is you moved your thumb too fast and the engine couldn't handle it."
That shouldn't matter because in the heat of a fore checker immediately on your Dman you have to roll it quick out of reaction to roll away from hit/defender, you don't have time to "ease into it".
This has been my original argument for years, I've written thoughts such as "we are controlling 6" tall characters on a tv screen with no first person special awareness so we have to jam the thumb stick or roll it quickly out of split second reactions" TPS works against how you have to play this game, that is the problem. Its a game of quick last second actions/reactions, its not a slow drawn out I will start my turn 15 feet from defender then cut back at 45 degree's, that may be your original plan but that changes when a second defender jumps into your flight pattern "surprise" now you are jam the stick, roll it quick, and there is nothing wrong with that, that is what you "HAD" to do!!! but TPS punishes you for it, that is dumb!
Here's a perfect demonstration of everything that Workin was talking about in his OP. I win the faceoff back to my LD. I tell him to spin to his left, away from the onrushing defenders (who are able to be on my guy immediately, in a totally unrealistic fahsion). I do this exactly right, rolling the stick. But he doesn't turn. Instead, he hitches, goes back and forth, and of course gets stripped of the puck, leading to a cheap breakaway:
This is not a complicated play. It's a play any NHL defenseman would be able to make without a moment's thought. And the player -- a 94 skater, by the way -- isn't able to do it. He can't just follow my command and spin away. And needless to say, that entire play felt terrible from a user-experience point of view, which is exactly what Workin has been harping on -- TPS feels ****. I was fighting the controls the entire time, trying to get the player to do something and watching him not do it. Total helplessness, when what a video game should give you -- and what this game used to give you -- was a feeling of total control.
I tried to replicate this through numerous attempts rolling from left to right in both directions away from the faceoff dot and the only way I could get the player to cancel his pivot to forwards was to press vision control. I tried it after regular reaching pickups to forehand and backhand and also after strafe pickups as well. It looks like you are half way into your step to forwards and then he cancels/blends out and goes back to a back skate. It looks very similar to the frames we allowed quicker transitions in our pivots (which was mostly for defenders not wanting to commit to pivots until they have planted that foot)
It then looks like vision control was released (is it possible it was an accidental press so it was an on then off with slight pressure resting on it?) he starts to turn to forwards again but before he plants his right foot, you deke out to your backhand side (left on the right stick in this case) and it puts him in a gliding deke state in the direction that he is closest too). In this case, this is a fault in being too responsive as it sounds like you would have wanted him to finish the pivot, and then go into the backhand deke state.
I never touched VC on this play -- I was just trying to spin away to my left so I could avoid the oncoming checkers and make a pass to the LW. And I only used the RS in a desperate attempt to protect the puck after it became clear that the game was not going to allow me to make the move I wanted. Basically, I just wanted to do this:
Anyway, I don't know why you think engaging VC would be necessary for Blake to hitch like he does. He basically just does the same thing Redden does in this clip, swinging back in the direction opposite from where the controller is pointing:
That's identical to the first hitch Blake makes, only in the Blake clip we're looking at it head on instead of from behind.
As for my thumbs being too fast, I don't really know what to say about that. I don't have especially fast twitch reflexes. And I mean, look at the checkers -- they're right on me. Not entirely sure how I'm supposed to move my fingers slowly in the face of that.
Anyway, I'm sure somehow it was user error, and I'm just not good enough to make that turn under pressure. Which probably means it's getting to be time to put this game away for good.
@NHLDev as i pointed out to you on twitter a while back, the game simply can't keep up with our thumbs any longer. you need to get the responsiveness back into the controls.
@Bmh245 i would urge you to show future replays in real time, then in slow motion. my bet is you moved your thumb too fast and the engine couldn't handle it.
this was the example i showed to them and we started troubleshooting. after further testing, i found that this only happened when i moved the left stick too fast (twitching). i tested it while skating, gliding, holding the puck forehand/backhand and protecting the puck. it didn't matter what i was doing with other buttons, i was only able to replicate this when i was too fast on the left stick and the game couldn't keep up or tried to shortcut to my input.
@Bmh245 Also orient your dang camera properly so what we see isn't backwards.. No need for that ****.
I don't think this issue of being too fast will ever be any better. Your player has to take time to move like a real hockey player, he can't react in a single frame perfectly to what you want, it would look ridiculous.
@VeNOM2099 Has posted some good clips in the past that illustrate this issue. He was trying to call ice tilt, and getting really angry in the process, but it was simply this issue of moving his LS too fast for his player to keep up resulting in his player moving weird.
this was never an issue on the 360 pre-TPS. why shouldn't my character be able to curl quickly there? the animations right now are way too slow. as i stated in my post, it doesn't matter if you glide into it or not. if you move your stick in a split second the game doesn't keep up. in the heat of the moment (EASHL, VS, HUT w/e) if i have faster thumbs than my opponent i should have an advantage. as it stands right now the person with the slower thumbs is rewarded.
i'm sure you watch plenty of hockey, guys can stop on a dime and change direction at any speed (much like the old skating engine), but we can't do it in this game.
i would also like to see some proof or have someone show me an example that TPS is anything more than lengthening our skate blades (under the hood). in my opinion the evidence points to 17" speed skater blades with the sail boat like turns and straight away speed. this would also explain why we can't customize those any longer.
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I agree that whatever algorithm the game is using to choose whether a player should spin or just go directly in the direction he's aiming is totally screwy, and I've been complaining about it for the past couple of years. But the hitch problem is something different -- in the case of the spin, the game is at least trying to get you in the direction you're aiming the controller (it's just choosing to get you there by spinning, because it thinks that's the quickest route). In the clip with #6 above, by contrast, the controller is never pointing in the direction where the player moves back. To me, it feels like this is a consequence of the poor way TPS handles weight shifts -- it's like the player can't move in one direction without first swinging back in the other.
QFT. This game has been deciding too much for us ever since current gen. Now the real question is, "Why is the game always deciding things for us?" To close the skill gap maybe?
Why every year now since 15 does it feel like we're fighting the game engine itself more than our own opponent? Just making a wide open pass, switching to the player near the puck, or turning in the direction you want is such a chore! Hmm...
It doesn't matter what new feature we get as long as this game engine continues to take the controller out of your hands during games.
Make sure not to take one thing in context and then use it as a generalization for everything.
I said that in a goalie thread where goalies are asking with the controller to go to their left but still wanting the goalie to plant and make a save to their right. In that context, they say they are getting punished for tracking the puck, yet if they did stop or move to the right, they wouldn't be getting an against the grain save.
In these skating clips, I have seen Bmh post them, many of them are the same issue. A lot of them have to do with receiving a puck in our old pickup system that still plays in some cases for coverage and has to reset back to your center/glide position before you are able to transition out. Best case would be if from the pickup point you could blend right out into skating but after an attempt during production on NHL 17, I felt it actually made things worse and more floaty, so we reverted the change.
We are very aware of these issues and always looking at ways to improve them. When I say I like the general idea of TPS, people quote me as saying 'it is the best thing since sliced bread'. The over-exaggerations is what frustrates other people as they think that means I don't care to address the issues that remain in the system.
Context is king is a lot of these conversations.
Thanks for the videos. Unfortunately in this case, I don't believe there is anything new here that hasn't been logged before. I know from each of your sides, you will want to post the videos until they are fixed. We still have a bug and improvements database that is all sorted by priority and issues don't go away until solved. It is just that some of them are harder to fix without bigger knock ons so others sometimes get fixed first until we have a solid solution.
Actually, you had talked about players wanting assistance on their shots when we were discussing shots on an empty net going wide when it appears that we are aiming for it. It was also a theme in other discussions as well. However, that was on the old forums, which sadly don't exist anymore.
But I have a good memory. Like a steel trap!
As for fixing the issues, well I always say a compromise is better than nothing.
If that's the case, I expect this to be fixed for 18.
I think most of us understand this. However it all goes to prove the point in this thread that some are making, and that is, the current skating engine isn't good enough, and it isn't improving fast enough. We know there is only so much you can fix, and the engine can only be so good. Given that, at some point, if it's still not working, you eventually have to give up on it, right?
I'm not saying we are there yet, but at the rate this has improved we've got to be coming close to it.
All the more frustrating is the fact that the engine was much better last gen. I still liked NHL 13 skating the best. I think pivoting from a standstill and acceleration needed some work, but aside from that I feel it controlled the best. Here we are in NHL 17, and I think it feels clunkier, less responsive, and worse yet, the slow pivots are back again!
There have been some nice additions to the engine, such as the precision skating, but I just don't think they work well in this game. On defense, they are too cumbersome to use, and to much effort for what amounts to taking one step to the right. On offense, aside from behind your net or waiting for a one timer in the slot, there is no use for them. Everyone just charges the puck carrier in this game. You don't have a chance to stand still and then take a sidestep to the right or left.
Another factor, I think the engine relies a lot on context, and needing to read inputs. Like if I press right on the LS, the game needs to pause a beat to see if I tapped it or if I'm holding it full tilt to the right. That pause makes everything feel so sluggish.
I don't know, maybe you guys have a grand 4 year plan with this game, but right now, it doesn't seem like it's heading anywhere. And I know it's not exactly fair for you guys, some of which haven't been on this game forever, but to us, this series has a history of introducing a new feature, it doesn't work well, and instead of fixing it next year, they move on to the next new feature that won't work well. It's hard to have faith that the skating is going to improve much any time soon.
If it made the same strides between 17 and 18 that it made from 15 through 17, the skating next year is still going to be a huge issue.
And this is just one part of the game that needs work. I feel like you are wasting your time spinning your wheels to make incremental improvements to something that is still far from an acceptable level and the rest of the game is suffering yearly for it.
To me, if I could have it my way, I would prefer a realistic skating engine like this, if it worked, if it was responsive, if I didn't feel floaty, or out of control. But I just don't believe it's possible. Not with the size of your team and the budget and the quick release schedule. That is why I say I would rather have a crappy skating engine that works than a great one that doesn't.
Great post, I think a lot of us feel this way.
This is not a complicated play. It's a play any NHL defenseman would be able to make without a moment's thought. And the player -- a 94 skater, by the way -- isn't able to do it. He can't just follow my command and spin away. And needless to say, that entire play felt terrible from a user-experience point of view, which is exactly what Workin has been harping on -- TPS feels crappy. I was fighting the controls the entire time, trying to get the player to do something and watching him not do it. Total helplessness, when what a video game should give you -- and what this game used to give you -- was a feeling of total control.
Where NHL DEV and EA are missing the mark is to them they view it as "yep, not great, we are working on making it better" but don't realize we are playing this game right now!!! and paid good money to do so!!! To them it's a minor thing to be discussed and fixed over time, but fail to realize to those of us who play on a daily basis (or used to) this is deal breaker issues here! The game is frustrating as heck!! in that video above, what if that was an EASHL game with 1 minute left in the 3rd period and you were leading by one? Your team wins the faceoff (good), Dman receives it clean (good), Dman shields puck to turn away from defender (good) but TPS makes him hitch which holds the puck out right for the defenders to take the puck from the Dman then goes in for a game tying breakaway goal? That is the moment right there where this Dman and probably the entire EASHL team just shuts off the xbox/ps right then and there taking the loss even though its a tie game because the game should have been over with a win. Why should people get punished by bad TPS in these games? Its not user mistake, if it were users can live with it, but when you do the right things but the game/TPS doesn't let you do it and that results in something bad happening, that is frustrating and a problem. This stuff happens all over the ice all game long every single game and EA says "we are working on improving it" really? Its not working, you know this, you have acknowledged it, we all know it, do something now!!
I cannot count the number of times that this EXACT situation happens to me during the course of a game. Your skater is truly helpless in this situation ONLY because he won't do what you tell him to on your controller. In this video it looks like (based on footing) he had three attempts at turning his body and stick away from traffic, but for whatever reason the game just won't let him do it. WHY EA??!!!
Yep, Good example of the clunkiness. This is a good example of the **** we have had to deal with for 5 years.
From a user's perspective, the feeling of pushing your joystick in a direction and having your player 'hitch' and do something you don't tell them is terrible. Things like this happen, and more so in player lock modes than 1v1, every single game, multiple times. It's garbage.
Can you combat things like this with better controller movement? Yep, you can, but it starts to feel tedious and chore-like over time.
As for the video, you can avoid things like the first 'hitch' by using your RS. The second hitch is in fact done because you moved the RS, but you weren't turned around far enough so instead of turning around to forward skating you remained back skating.
Just fix this crap and the game will be pretty good.
I tried to replicate this through numerous attempts rolling from left to right in both directions away from the faceoff dot and the only way I could get the player to cancel his pivot to forwards was to press vision control. I tried it after regular reaching pickups to forehand and backhand and also after strafe pickups as well. It looks like you are half way into your step to forwards and then he cancels/blends out and goes back to a back skate. It looks very similar to the frames we allowed quicker transitions in our pivots (which was mostly for defenders not wanting to commit to pivots until they have planted that foot)
It then looks like vision control was released (is it possible it was an accidental press so it was an on then off with slight pressure resting on it?) he starts to turn to forwards again but before he plants his right foot, you deke out to your backhand side (left on the right stick in this case) and it puts him in a gliding deke state in the direction that he is closest too). In this case, this is a fault in being too responsive as it sounds like you would have wanted him to finish the pivot, and then go into the backhand deke state.
Hey NHL guy, I'd like to add a thing or two to what happened up above. I have also noticed this inability to turn when there are other skaters within stick-length distance of me. I ALWAYS play with auto back-skate turned off but it doesn't seem to matter when there is traffic around you. I think this is more noticeable in your defensive zone when the puck is perfectly zipping around on your opponents stick and you are just trying to face the play or puck properly but can't turn for the life of you.
Ok, lets for the sake of argument all agree that we the users are just not capable of mastering TPS, just not possible. So now we have a skating engine way too advanced for us that nobody can master and EA's response is "keep playing, you will get better with it"???
The point is we've been playing with TPS since NHL 13 and still can't master it, that is your answer right there, TPS must change!!!
@Bmh245 i would urge you to show future replays in real time, then in slow motion. my bet is you moved your thumb too fast and the engine couldn't handle it.
this was the example i showed to them and we started troubleshooting. after further testing, i found that this only happened when i moved the left stick too fast (twitching). i tested it while skating, gliding, holding the puck forehand/backhand and protecting the puck. it didn't matter what i was doing with other buttons, i was only able to replicate this when i was too fast on the left stick and the game couldn't keep up or tried to shortcut to my input.
@Bmh245 Also orient your dang camera properly so what we see isn't backwards.. No need for that ****.
I don't think this issue of being too fast will ever be any better. Your player has to take time to move like a real hockey player, he can't react in a single frame perfectly to what you want, it would look ridiculous.
@VeNOM2099 Has posted some good clips in the past that illustrate this issue. He was trying to call ice tilt, and getting really angry in the process, but it was simply this issue of moving his LS too fast for his player to keep up resulting in his player moving weird.
That shouldn't matter because in the heat of a fore checker immediately on your Dman you have to roll it quick out of reaction to roll away from hit/defender, you don't have time to "ease into it".
This has been my original argument for years, I've written thoughts such as "we are controlling 6" tall characters on a tv screen with no first person special awareness so we have to jam the thumb stick or roll it quickly out of split second reactions" TPS works against how you have to play this game, that is the problem. Its a game of quick last second actions/reactions, its not a slow drawn out I will start my turn 15 feet from defender then cut back at 45 degree's, that may be your original plan but that changes when a second defender jumps into your flight pattern "surprise" now you are jam the stick, roll it quick, and there is nothing wrong with that, that is what you "HAD" to do!!! but TPS punishes you for it, that is dumb!
I never touched VC on this play -- I was just trying to spin away to my left so I could avoid the oncoming checkers and make a pass to the LW. And I only used the RS in a desperate attempt to protect the puck after it became clear that the game was not going to allow me to make the move I wanted. Basically, I just wanted to do this:
Anyway, I don't know why you think engaging VC would be necessary for Blake to hitch like he does. He basically just does the same thing Redden does in this clip, swinging back in the direction opposite from where the controller is pointing:
That's identical to the first hitch Blake makes, only in the Blake clip we're looking at it head on instead of from behind.
As for my thumbs being too fast, I don't really know what to say about that. I don't have especially fast twitch reflexes. And I mean, look at the checkers -- they're right on me. Not entirely sure how I'm supposed to move my fingers slowly in the face of that.
Anyway, I'm sure somehow it was user error, and I'm just not good enough to make that turn under pressure. Which probably means it's getting to be time to put this game away for good.
this was never an issue on the 360 pre-TPS. why shouldn't my character be able to curl quickly there? the animations right now are way too slow. as i stated in my post, it doesn't matter if you glide into it or not. if you move your stick in a split second the game doesn't keep up. in the heat of the moment (EASHL, VS, HUT w/e) if i have faster thumbs than my opponent i should have an advantage. as it stands right now the person with the slower thumbs is rewarded.
i'm sure you watch plenty of hockey, guys can stop on a dime and change direction at any speed (much like the old skating engine), but we can't do it in this game.
i would also like to see some proof or have someone show me an example that TPS is anything more than lengthening our skate blades (under the hood). in my opinion the evidence points to 17" speed skater blades with the sail boat like turns and straight away speed. this would also explain why we can't customize those any longer.