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EA Dev, TPS needs to be better or else this game will never reach potential

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  • VeNOM2099
    3178 posts Member
    edited December 2016
    @Workin_OT

    LOL!

    I think the exact words I used were "selective programming", but ok.

    But yeah, it's possible that the issue was caused by moving the LS too quickly for the game's sample rate to handle. However, if that's the case, why is the game interpreting me rolling the joystick to get to the direction I want to go in as a command? It's not a fireball, i'm not trying to do a Hadouken that it needs to register every input from Down to Up-Left. In fact, any input that's not held for at least a brief moment should be ignored in this case as almost anyone will need to roll the stick (at least somewhat) if they want to change directions.
  • Am I simplifying things too much by saying that "this is a twitch-style game that requires a twitch-quality control?" Things just happen so fast in this game. It's the nature of the game. The controls need to allow the player to "keep up with the action" and right now we are not given anything remotely close to that. It is a constant fight just to get the game to figure out what you are trying to do with your controller right now, and has been since 13, plain and simple.
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    Bmh245 wrote: »
    Here's a perfect demonstration of everything that Workin was talking about in his OP. I win the faceoff back to my LD. I tell him to spin to his left, away from the onrushing defenders (who are able to be on my guy immediately, in a totally unrealistic fahsion). I do this exactly right, rolling the stick. But he doesn't turn. Instead, he hitches, goes back and forth, and of course gets stripped of the puck, leading to a cheap breakaway:



    This is not a complicated play. It's a play any NHL defenseman would be able to make without a moment's thought. And the player -- a 94 skater, by the way -- isn't able to do it. He can't just follow my command and spin away. And needless to say, that entire play felt terrible from a user-experience point of view, which is exactly what Workin has been harping on -- TPS feels ****. I was fighting the controls the entire time, trying to get the player to do something and watching him not do it. Total helplessness, when what a video game should give you -- and what this game used to give you -- was a feeling of total control.

    I tried to replicate this through numerous attempts rolling from left to right in both directions away from the faceoff dot and the only way I could get the player to cancel his pivot to forwards was to press vision control. I tried it after regular reaching pickups to forehand and backhand and also after strafe pickups as well. It looks like you are half way into your step to forwards and then he cancels/blends out and goes back to a back skate. It looks very similar to the frames we allowed quicker transitions in our pivots (which was mostly for defenders not wanting to commit to pivots until they have planted that foot)

    It then looks like vision control was released (is it possible it was an accidental press so it was an on then off with slight pressure resting on it?) he starts to turn to forwards again but before he plants his right foot, you deke out to your backhand side (left on the right stick in this case) and it puts him in a gliding deke state in the direction that he is closest too). In this case, this is a fault in being too responsive as it sounds like you would have wanted him to finish the pivot, and then go into the backhand deke state.

    It's not user error. And if you've never replicated that scenario at least 30 times this year, I doubt you play the game. That happens way too much. It's the skating engine, not us. It's not responding the way we want it to respond. 95% of us hardcore players have made that same dinky turn attempt at least 30 times this year.
  • Am I simplifying things too much by saying that "this is a twitch-style game that requires a twitch-quality control?" Things just happen so fast in this game. It's the nature of the game. The controls need to allow the player to "keep up with the action" and right now we are not given anything remotely close to that. It is a constant fight just to get the game to figure out what you are trying to do with your controller right now, and has been since 13, plain and simple.

    Well, the thing is a real skater can keep his upper body facing the play while moving in any direction (with speed) simply by moving/shifting his legs and skates without losing. Not in this game.

    EA's NHL games have always forced you to turn around to move in a different direction. Yes, Vision Control in the past helped somewhat, but there always seemed to be a situation that would force you to turn around and you'd get smoked.
  • This game (engine) has reached it's potential. Only thing left is to scrap it and start over instead of remaking the same garbage again next year.

    /thread
  • Ryujinsum
    62 posts Member
    edited December 2016
    NHLDev wrote: »
    Bmh245 wrote: »
    Here's a perfect demonstration of everything that Workin was talking about in his OP. I win the faceoff back to my LD. I tell him to spin to his left, away from the onrushing defenders (who are able to be on my guy immediately, in a totally unrealistic fahsion). I do this exactly right, rolling the stick. But he doesn't turn. Instead, he hitches, goes back and forth, and of course gets stripped of the puck, leading to a cheap breakaway:



    This is not a complicated play. It's a play any NHL defenseman would be able to make without a moment's thought. And the player -- a 94 skater, by the way -- isn't able to do it. He can't just follow my command and spin away. And needless to say, that entire play felt terrible from a user-experience point of view, which is exactly what Workin has been harping on -- TPS feels ****. I was fighting the controls the entire time, trying to get the player to do something and watching him not do it. Total helplessness, when what a video game should give you -- and what this game used to give you -- was a feeling of total control.

    I tried to replicate this through numerous attempts rolling from left to right in both directions away from the faceoff dot and the only way I could get the player to cancel his pivot to forwards was to press vision control. I tried it after regular reaching pickups to forehand and backhand and also after strafe pickups as well. It looks like you are half way into your step to forwards and then he cancels/blends out and goes back to a back skate. It looks very similar to the frames we allowed quicker transitions in our pivots (which was mostly for defenders not wanting to commit to pivots until they have planted that foot)

    It then looks like vision control was released (is it possible it was an accidental press so it was an on then off with slight pressure resting on it?) he starts to turn to forwards again but before he plants his right foot, you deke out to your backhand side (left on the right stick in this case) and it puts him in a gliding deke state in the direction that he is closest too). In this case, this is a fault in being too responsive as it sounds like you would have wanted him to finish the pivot, and then go into the backhand deke state.

    It's not user error. And if you've never replicated that scenario at least 30 times this year, I doubt you play the game. That happens way too much. It's the skating engine, not us. It's not responding the way we want it to respond. 95% of us hardcore players have made that same dinky turn attempt at least 30 times this year.

    Ya, it's pretty alarming that he thinks its a user error. This response pretty much tells you how things are going to continue on for the NHL series. They never take responsibility for their mishaps, we only get a "we're always trying to improve things". Still waiting on that NHL 15 apology to the fans.
  • "Am I simplifying things too much by saying that "this is a twitch-style game that requires a twitch-quality control?" Things just happen so fast in this game. It's the nature of the game. The controls need to allow the player to "keep up with the action" and right now we are not given anything remotely close to that. It is a constant fight just to get the game to figure out what you are trying to do with your controller right now, and has been since 13, plain and simple. "

    No you are not over simplifying things, you nailed it, exactly my argument for years that this game forces you to react in a split second over and over and over all game long, you are forced to jam the thumb stick quickly, or roll it fast, to react, its indeed a twitch style game.

    What we have now is you are a car driving down an icy road, a deer jumps on the road 30 feet in front of you, you see it, you react to it, but you have no control, you keep going because of momentum on ice, you keep sliding right into the deer, can't do a darn thing about it. Same in this game because of TPS. Its a quick twitch game, you should have control to react and avoid, etc. based on last second quick decisions, this is the way the game plays, fast and unpredictable, you must have this control or the game plays awful.

  • " There's a few frames there where I can clearly see VC being pressed. "

    Clearly? uh, no... you can replicate this easily by rolling your thumb stick quickly, it will start to turn but will stall if you roll it too quick. It won't let you do a quick spin/turn, the game wants you to skate back and around in a slower longer looping pivot, TPS wouldn't allow him to turn/spin in his stationary position, this is not because of vision control.

    This is why TPS is garbage, he made the right move by receiving the puck then spin away from attackers shielding the puck, he would have then had a clean lane to skate or pass up the boards. But... TPS screwed this up, its was a simple command, get puck, roll thumb stick to spin away from pressure but nope! TPS won't let you do this.
  • sgiz1 wrote: »
    " There's a few frames there where I can clearly see VC being pressed. "

    Clearly? uh, no... you can replicate this easily by rolling your thumb stick quickly, it will start to turn but will stall if you roll it too quick. It won't let you do a quick spin/turn, the game wants you to skate back and around in a slower longer looping pivot, TPS wouldn't allow him to turn/spin in his stationary position, this is not because of vision control.

    This is why TPS is garbage, he made the right move by receiving the puck then spin away from attackers shielding the puck, he would have then had a clean lane to skate or pass up the boards. But... TPS screwed this up, its was a simple command, get puck, roll thumb stick to spin away from pressure but nope! TPS won't let you do this.

    He's trying to get back at BMH for proving him wrong about momentum in 13 :) Seriously though, BMH said he didn't use VC, don't know why this guy can't believe him.
  • TPS is not a "git gud" issue. The AI even tards out and goes into weird spins and wonky pivots. When the AI can't even skate, something is wrong.

    These aren't scrubs telling you the skating is broken. It's top VS, HUT, and LG players telling you it's broken.

    Keep putting your head in the sand though, it's working out great! :D
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    edited December 2016
    There are times after receiving the puck that a pass reception animation returns you to your default positioning/facing and doesn't blend out at the puck contact frame with the stick. This can sometimes cause you to turn back by 45 degrees.

    That issue is different than if you already have possession of the puck though, and would be different than if you try to turn and then get put back the other way. I have been trying to be more frantic with the controller and if you roll all the way around and pass the 180 degree mark before your player has turned passed it on the opposite side, it does make your player try and take the faster route to that position. That could generate another case where he wants to turn the other way.

    The case in bmh's video does look like he went into a couple of backskating frames so that is why I thought it was VC, even if by accident. It also looked like most of his inputs were in the same quadrant so I don't think they were the roll past 180 too fast issue.

    When it comes to people talking about the input and speed of their thumbs, the game either needs to have more memory, to realize you rolled through an area and force you to turn that direction even if you get passed that 180 degree mark before he has started to turn or else it may pick the other direction to go.

    If we don't keep memory of it, just by pressing 9, 6, 3 o'clock on the controller could be similar to rolling fast, and if you tapped 6 for a frame but then decided to skate straight to 3, you would be mad that he then turned through 6 to get there.

    So, yes, it would be great if we could keep up with your thumbs in all cases but a person can't physically do something on skates at the speed you can do it with your thumbs so for that to behave accurately at all, it is going to be out of sync.

    It also isn't the person with the slower response time that is being rewarded as was said. It is the person that looks at the player they are controlling as a physical hockey player, recognizing what he is capable of on his skates and is more deliberate in the actions and controls them in real time rather than trying to get ahead of their actions.

    Button queuing issues are some of the biggest problems in games so I don't think you really want the game to get too far ahead of where you are at and force you to go through all those actions even if you decide to change your mind.
  • KoryDub wrote: »
    or7ptsR.gif

    There's a few frames there where I can clearly see VC being pressed.

    I have a lot of the same issues with TPS as a lot here but I don't recall what happened in this video ever happening to me as a dman.

    REALLY?! Wow. I'm surprised. I've seen it happen about a hundred times to other dmen and I've had it happen around 30 times to my own player.
  • NHLDev wrote: »

    When it comes to people talking about the input and speed of their thumbs, the game either needs to have more memory, to realize you rolled through an area and force you to turn that direction even if you get passed that 180 degree mark before he has started to turn or else it may pick the other direction to go.

    If we don't keep memory of it, just by pressing 9, 6, 3 o'clock on the controller could be similar to rolling fast, and if you tapped 6 for a frame but then decided to skate straight to 3, you would be mad that he then turned through 6 to get there.

    So, yes, it would be great if we could keep up with your thumbs in all cases but a person can't physically do something on skates at the speed you can do it with your thumbs so for that to behave accurately at all, it is going to be out of sync.

    It also isn't the person with the slower response time that is being rewarded as was said. It is the person that looks at the player they are controlling as a physical hockey player, recognizing what he is capable of on his skates and is more deliberate in the actions and controls them in real time rather than trying to get ahead of their actions.

    Button queuing issues are some of the biggest problems in games so I don't think you really want the game to get too far ahead of where you are at and force you to go through all those actions even if you decide to change your mind.

    i get what you're saying, but the problem isn't that i am skating too fast there, this happens at slow speeds, while gliding and from a standstill as BMH pointed out. even if i am skating fast, i should be able to whip around and curl fast because if we're going for "sim", real life players are able to make these quick maneuvers every time they're on the ice at any speed, unless they are john scott. honestly even scott moves a hell of a lot faster in real life than my offline NHL skater.

    this is why dmen have so many problems keeping the puck in near the blue line. you can make a split decision, but the game will cause funky things to happen and next thing you know you're stick is in the middle of the ice waiting to get poked. this is why forwards get spun around against their will in corners.

    the issue is the overall lack of feel and control with almost every aspect of this game now, from skating to stickhandling to goalie. everything was simply more responsive and more realistic before next gen and TPS. there's really nothing left to say.

  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    i get what you're saying, but the problem isn't that i am skating too fast there, this happens at slow speeds, while gliding and from a standstill as BMH pointed out. even if i am skating fast, i should be able to whip around and curl fast because if we're going for "sim", real life players are able to make these quick maneuvers every time they're on the ice at any speed, unless they are john scott. honestly even scott moves a **** of a lot faster in real life than my offline NHL skater.

    this is why dmen have so many problems keeping the puck in near the blue line. you can make a split decision, but the game will cause funky things to happen and next thing you know you're stick is in the middle of the ice waiting to get poked. this is why forwards get spun around against their will in corners.

    the issue is the overall lack of feel and control with almost every aspect of this game now, from skating to stickhandling to goalie. everything was simply more responsive and more realistic before next gen and TPS. there's really nothing left to say.

    Not sure we are on the same page. You said you get what I am saying but I am not saying anything about higher speeds vs slower speeds making a difference.

    Use another subject entirely as an example. If you are driving a car through an S curve. You can't just turn left and then turn right ahead of time. You need to finish the left turn before you start the right turn. If you look at your player the same like you are moving an actual player on skates rather than moving a dot around on the ice that happens to be playing skating animations, your inputs will be more deliberate and in line with what he is doing rather than getting ahead of him.

    The best example of what is going wrong and how we don't queue the inputs is to roll the left stick in a circle really fast, getting ahead of your player. The player will get to a point where they are just trying to turn left and right from the same spot, never really making any ground. If you slow down your rotation to match that players individual speed based on their attributes, you will be able to get them to skate around in a tight circle.

    On the online default settings, the skating speeds match the real world very close but if anything have acceleration speeds that are actually faster than a real world player.

    All that said, if you liked the feel of earlier versions of the game and that felt more realistic to you, then nobody is here to argue that since it is personal opinion and personal feel. I am just talking about what is actually physically possible in the real world and I don't know a player that can turn around as fast as I can roll my thumb on a joystick.

  • I don't think we are aiming to turn faster than we can move our sticks. We just want to attempt to turn that direction in that time. Nobody wants 90 degree pivots on a dime. We just don't want to be standing still, then attempt to go right and watch our guy stutter for a full second and then finally move right.
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