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  • Bmh245 wrote: »
    SharlonD wrote: »
    I've either never noticed or haven't seen a puck pass through a goalie though I only play online.. post a video I would like to see this because I play everyday and have yet to see this.. sticks going through the net and through skaters sticks I've seen but not the puck through a goalie



    (first goal in video)

    http://xboxclips.com/kschepis/4de43485-1ede-4b03-84c2-dbd2af9055a9 (watch all the way to the end)

    Then there are all the goals that somehow magically go underneath the goalie's pads, even though IRL pads are flush to the surface. You can also poke check through the goalie's pads to knock the puck in.


    All I can say is it happens in every video game so I wouldn't be so quick to rip on EA. Nba2k players go through each other, madden the ball goes through hands, cod you can put guns through people, gta cars get stuck in the ground.. can't expect little bugs not to happen, it would be nice if every game was glitch free but it's video games man it comes with the territory.. or am I wrong?
  • SharlonD wrote: »
    Bmh245 wrote: »
    SharlonD wrote: »
    I've either never noticed or haven't seen a puck pass through a goalie though I only play online.. post a video I would like to see this because I play everyday and have yet to see this.. sticks going through the net and through skaters sticks I've seen but not the puck through a goalie



    (first goal in video)

    http://xboxclips.com/kschepis/4de43485-1ede-4b03-84c2-dbd2af9055a9 (watch all the way to the end)

    Then there are all the goals that somehow magically go underneath the goalie's pads, even though IRL pads are flush to the surface. You can also poke check through the goalie's pads to knock the puck in.


    All I can say is it happens in every video game so I wouldn't be so quick to rip on EA. Nba2k players go through each other, madden the ball goes through hands, cod you can put guns through people, gta cars get stuck in the ground.. can't expect little bugs not to happen, it would be nice if every game was glitch free but it's video games man it comes with the territory.. or am I wrong?

    I would say you're wrong. Some of the problems you're talking about -- players going through each other, guns through people -- are clipping issues, which everyone recognizes are hard to fix, and which don't usually have any impact on gameplay. And NHL 17 has plenty of those -- sticks going through boards, sticks going through players when you follow through on a shot, sticks going through players on stick lifts, etc.

    Then there are gameplay-affecting bugs, like the ball going through a player's hands in Madden. NHL 17 has tons of those problems: sticks go through sticks without jarring the puck loose (even though in this game, they're supposed to knock the puck loose 100% of the time), pucks go through skates, pucks go through stick blades, sticks are able to grab pucks or even shoot the puck while going through players' bodies. In fact, it's not even clear to me these count as bugs, since they happen 10-20 times in every single game. And I think that's egregious, but maybe it is a huge programming challenge to get them right more often than they do.

    But a puck going right through a goalie -- who is a large, fixed object -- seems completely absurd to me, especially when you consider how important goals are in hockey. I've never seen this happen in FIFA, for instance, but it happens in this year's game way more often than it should.

  • SharlonD wrote: »
    Bmh245 wrote: »
    SharlonD wrote: »
    I've either never noticed or haven't seen a puck pass through a goalie though I only play online.. post a video I would like to see this because I play everyday and have yet to see this.. sticks going through the net and through skaters sticks I've seen but not the puck through a goalie



    (first goal in video)

    http://xboxclips.com/kschepis/4de43485-1ede-4b03-84c2-dbd2af9055a9 (watch all the way to the end)

    Then there are all the goals that somehow magically go underneath the goalie's pads, even though IRL pads are flush to the surface. You can also poke check through the goalie's pads to knock the puck in.


    All I can say is it happens in every video game so I wouldn't be so quick to rip on EA. Nba2k players go through each other, madden the ball goes through hands, cod you can put guns through people, gta cars get stuck in the ground.. can't expect little bugs not to happen, it would be nice if every game was glitch free but it's video games man it comes with the territory.. or am I wrong?

    You are wrong. Games have bugs, yes. But the same bugs year after year with minimal improvement is simply bad developing. This is why you have Alpha/Beta testing. You don't release a game still in Alpha, do you? NHL 15 was an alpha release, with '16-'17 looking more like beta's than a complete game on so many levels.
  • SharlonD wrote: »
    I've either never noticed or haven't seen a puck pass through a goalie though I only play online.. post a video I would like to see this because I play everyday and have yet to see this.. sticks going through the net and through skaters sticks I've seen but not the puck through a goalie

    You know what doesn't go through a goalie ? A full player.. usually it's a big collision... so why the **** is there never a goalie interference penalty in this awful game ?! lol
  • SharlonD wrote: »
    All I can say is it happens in every video game so I wouldn't be so quick to rip on EA. Nba2k players go through each other, madden the ball goes through hands, cod you can put guns through people, gta cars get stuck in the ground.. can't expect little bugs not to happen, it would be nice if every game was glitch free but it's video games man it comes with the territory.. or am I wrong?

    Here's an example of the everyday glitches we have to deal with in this game. Defenseman is corralling puck right near goalie. Goalie puts his stick through defenseman's skate, slightly deflecting it. Defenseman is able to kick puck to his stick, but goalie then drags his stick back through defenseman's leg (and, if you look, puts his stick through the ice), knocking the puck into his own goal:



    Stuff like this is analogous to the ball-through-hand problem in Madden. It's absurd that we have to deal with it in every single game, but I get that coding stick-body interactions is tough, and the devs have to make all sorts of compromises in an attempt to make sure someone is able to pull the puck out of a scrum. Having to deal with pucks going through goalies on top of all this is just nonsense.

  • Hopefully @NHLDev sees these things and passes it along.

    These are pretty bad!!
    You must unlearn what you have learned!
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    edited December 2016
    Yes, we are aware of the collision issues that need to be better.

    The last case that Bmh showed is that weird line between collisions all the time and allowing you to not self collide when trying to pickup the puck (since there is sometimes not enough coverage to get it right. So by trying to add skate pickup coverage to get more pickups and allowing the range to be bigger than it should since people kept skating by pucks still, the puck goes through his skate in some cases rather bobbling the puck or waiting for another skate pickup that goes over the puck 3 inches further. It certainly isn't ideal, that is just why it happens. And since we added those skate pickups as a result of the Beta feedback, they didn't get the same level of polish they would if worked on for the whole year able to really balance how far the IK can support, how much the puck can warp, etc. (that is also why a player losing the puck from a poke or incidental contact gets the puck back more than he was during the Beta -- those pickups were added giving him more coverage to get a puck in and around his feet -- we lowered the reaction time and are looking at doing that again if we add another future tuner -- it takes time to see those things play out in game to really understand the balance of something working as intended and making another situation over-powered)

    The goalie in that video is just blending back to butterfly and happens to incidentally collide with the puck. To fix this without a ton of unique animations, base don puck position, you probably need to add a rule that doesn't let a goalie direct the puck towards their own net in some contexts, but that also gets tricky because all of a sudden the puck goes through him when you actually did want a collision if that flag hits.

    All things that need to be better. Just giving insight as to why. To solve one issue, you can introduce another. That is why in the past, defenders could just carry the puck in their own net, possess the puck and drag it through their goalie, etc.. We made a choice to make this more realistic this year and respect incidental collisions in these cases, let the AI goalie take control and cover a puck on their defenders stick if it got too close for comfort and we also call any goal that goes over the line a goal so we don't get those grey area issues where a defender can drag a puck over the line and in the net. It has led to some own goals but now we need to solve the precision in those cases, give the goalies more abilities, etc. to tighten it up even more -- but we are moving forward by fixing those other issues.
  • joefitz22
    643 posts Member
    edited December 2016
    NHLDev wrote: »
    Yes, we are aware of the collision issues that need to be better.

    The last case that Bmh showed is that weird line between collisions all the time and allowing you to not self collide when trying to pickup the puck (since there is sometimes not enough coverage to get it right. So by trying to add skate pickup coverage to get more pickups and allowing the range to be bigger than it should since people kept skating by pucks still, the puck goes through his skate in some cases rather bobbling the puck or waiting for another skate pickup that goes over the puck 3 inches further. It certainly isn't ideal, that is just why it happens. And since we added those skate pickups as a result of the Beta feedback, they didn't get the same level of polish they would if worked on for the whole year able to really balance how far the IK can support, how much the puck can warp, etc. (that is also why a player losing the puck from a poke or incidental contact gets the puck back more than he was during the Beta -- those pickups were added giving him more coverage to get a puck in and around his feet -- we lowered the reaction time and are looking at doing that again if we add another future tuner -- it takes time to see those things play out in game to really understand the balance of something working as intended and making another situation over-powered)

    The goalie in that video is just blending back to butterfly and happens to incidentally collide with the puck. To fix this without a ton of unique animations, base don puck position, you probably need to add a rule that doesn't let a goalie direct the puck towards their own net in some contexts, but that also gets tricky because all of a sudden the puck goes through him when you actually did want a collision if that flag hits.

    All things that need to be better. Just giving insight as to why. To solve one issue, you can introduce another. That is why in the past, defenders could just carry the puck in their own net, possess the puck and drag it through their goalie, etc.. We made a choice to make this more realistic this year and respect incidental collisions in these cases, let the AI goalie take control and cover a puck on their defenders stick if it got too close for comfort and we also call any goal that goes over the line a goal so we don't get those grey area issues where a defender can drag a puck over the line and in the net. It has led to some own goals but now we need to solve the precision in those cases, give the goalies more abilities, etc. to tighten it up even more -- but we are moving forward by fixing those other issues.

    Not to be rude Ben, definitely nice to get your feedback on these issues BUT (like you guys ask from the Community) Where is the Video of you guys "Fixing" this issue? Almost positive When Littman ran things he would post videos of the progress the game was making and how they were "Fixing' issues
    Fair is Fair. You expect videos from the Community so We (community) would like videos from You/EA Devs
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    edited December 2016
    joefitz22 wrote: »
    Not to be rude Ben, definitely nice to get your feedback on these issues BUT (like you guys ask from the Community) Where is the Video of you guys "Fixing" this issue? Almost positive When Littman ran things he would post videos of the progress the game was making and how they were "Fixing' issues
    Fair is Fair. You expect videos from the Community so We (community) would like videos from You/EA Devs
    I am not sure what that has to do with what I was saying as we don't need more videos of these issues. I was just explaining what is happening and why it isn't just a matter of turning something on/off or removing or adding a line of code. We have most issues logged ourselves but when talking to people on the forums, we say that it is easier to understand what they mean by posting a video as it rules out subjectivity. Unless it is a really rare bug, we don't need the videos to fix the issue, we just need time (and a lot of it in some cases).

    As far as posting videos of our fixes, if we had fixes, you would just get them in game and if these issues were easy to fix, they would already be fixed in game. Unfortunately, until a fix is actually official, we can't talk about it due to rev rec issues.

    Litty posted videos before launch in the same window you get videos from our team showing off new features. He chose to do behind the scenes looks of stuff with his personal camera when he was playing but those are similar to the dev diaries we do. It is possible due to rev rec issues not being as big at the time, he was able to do that with some patches as well but we wouldn't be able to do that now. What I talk about on the forums is about as far as I can go.

  • NHLDev wrote: »
    joefitz22 wrote: »
    Not to be rude Ben, definitely nice to get your feedback on these issues BUT (like you guys ask from the Community) Where is the Video of you guys "Fixing" this issue? Almost positive When Littman ran things he would post videos of the progress the game was making and how they were "Fixing' issues
    Fair is Fair. You expect videos from the Community so We (community) would like videos from You/EA Devs
    I am not sure what that has to do with what I was saying as we don't need more videos of these issues. I was just explaining what is happening and why it isn't just a matter of turning something on/off or removing or adding a line of code. We have most issues logged ourselves but when talking to people on the forums, we say that it is easier to understand what they mean by posting a video as it rules out subjectivity. Unless it is a really rare bug, we don't need the videos to fix the issue, we just need time (and a lot of it in some cases).

    As far as posting videos of our fixes, if we had fixes, you would just get them in game and if these issues were easy to fix, they would already be fixed in game. Unfortunately, until a fix is actually official, we can't talk about it due to rev rec issues.

    Litty posted videos before launch in the same window you get videos from our team showing off new features. He chose to do behind the scenes looks of stuff with his personal camera when he was playing but those are similar to the dev diaries we do. It is possible due to rev rec issues not being as big at the time, he was able to do that with some patches as well but we wouldn't be able to do that now. What I talk about on the forums is about as far as I can go.

    That's honestly really sad. Can you at least tell us what you're working on?
  • The_B_0_G
    593 posts Member
    edited December 2016
    The reason most topics are toxic in these forums is because they tried to make the game sim, but only made certain aspects realistic. Bad bounces, crazy deflections, people's hits bouncing off, highlight reel saves and weak goals, those are all realistic things in hockey, but seem to mostly be an advantage to offense.

    All those things work like they do in real hockey, but you don't have so many of the realistic defensive features, missing a poke check on a puck that isn't moving happens regularly, there is no stick on stick collisions (which makes deking back and forth OP as f***) I played defense for 15 years and swiping a stick across to hit another players stick is how I stripped 90% of the pucks off the other team, yet it is not in the game.

    Point is, when making a sim style game, you cant pick and choose which features you want to make realistic and which you will leave out, or you will get an unbalanced, frustrating mess, like we now have.
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    Litty posted videos before launch in the same window you get videos from our team showing off new features. He chose to do behind the scenes looks of stuff with his personal camera when he was playing but those are similar to the dev diaries we do. It is possible due to rev rec issues not being as big at the time, he was able to do that with some patches as well but we wouldn't be able to do that now. What I talk about on the forums is about as far as I can go.

    Littman did dev diaries as well, if I recall correctly. The Rammer era hasn't been kind in terms of transparency. It seems like we only get to see and hear what EA wants us to see and hear. In fact, we didn't hear from anyone at all during the NHL 15 days! ;)

    And the request by JoeFitz to get videos showing what has been fixed was a fantastic idea. It's just EA doesn't want that to happen. They want this company-consumer relationship to remain as one-sided as possible. Heck, even during GameChangers everything was behind closed doors and we were only given info based on what EA decided was allowed to be talked about.

    Stuff like this is why people have trust issues with the direction of this series.

  • joefitz22
    643 posts Member
    edited December 2016
    NHLDev wrote: »
    Litty posted videos before launch in the same window you get videos from our team showing off new features. He chose to do behind the scenes looks of stuff with his personal camera when he was playing but those are similar to the dev diaries we do. It is possible due to rev rec issues not being as big at the time, he was able to do that with some patches as well but we wouldn't be able to do that now. What I talk about on the forums is about as far as I can go.

    Littman did dev diaries as well, if I recall correctly. The Rammer era hasn't been kind in terms of transparency. It seems like we only get to see and hear what EA wants us to see and hear. In fact, we didn't hear from anyone at all during the NHL 15 days! ;)

    And the request by JoeFitz to get videos showing what has been fixed was a fantastic idea. It's just EA doesn't want that to happen. They want this company-consumer relationship to remain as one-sided as possible. Heck, even during GameChangers everything was behind closed doors and we were only given info based on what EA decided was allowed to be talked about.

    Stuff like this is why people have trust issues with the direction of this series.

    Thank You for the kind words. You know you look at a Company like LL Bean. I bought a pair of hiking boots from them back in 2012 (to wear to work). I managed to get 3 good long HARD years out of those boots. They have a Customer Satisfaction Guarantee on the back of their receipt. I took those boots back in may 2015. Despite those boots having 3yrs of use and abuse, smelly and just plain rancid (LOL), they Happily took them back (NO questions asked, NO accusations, NO nothing). They APOLOGIZED to me (Product Failure) told me to go pick a NEW pair of boots. I got a pair of $140 hiking boots for $72.99...they DISCOUNTED the NEW boots because their Product FAILED (despite me being satisfied with the boots...Hey, I got 3yrs out of them...I'll take that....lol)

    Here is what the back of the receipt says: (I bolded a part of it)

    Our products are guaranteed to give 100% satisfaction in every way. Return anything purchased from us at any time if it proves otherwise. We do not want you to have anything from L.L.Bean that is not completely satisfactory.

    We bring issues up to EA and we get looked at like our head is on backwards, then you get the EA fanboys that criticize you and say it's Your fault not EAs. They ask us for Video Evidence, the Community provides that evidence (BMH leading the charge) but yet when we ask the same of EA (video evidence that they are indeed fixing said issues, we get the run around...you'll see it when we put it in the game)
  • Yep. Only thing is L.L. Bean knows they can lose you to another company if you aren't satisfied and who does EA fear losing us to? I think that's a major part of the predicament we are in. The lack of competition problem is truly plaguing the sports gaming industry as a whole, in my opinion.

    I long for the days when we had 2-3 company products to choose from, even if the other 2-3 were considered inferior. Nowadays it's accept the turd in the box or don't play at all.
  • Yep. Only thing is L.L. Bean knows they can lose you to another company if you aren't satisfied and who does EA fear losing us to? I think that's a major part of the predicament we are in. The lack of competition problem is truly plaguing the sports gaming industry as a whole, in my opinion.

    I long for the days when we had 2-3 company products to choose from, even if the other 2-3 were considered inferior. Nowadays it's accept the **** in the box or don't play at all.

    Sad but True!!
  • So pony up and make a new NHL game nothing is stopping anyone from doing it other than no one else being able to put out a half decent product.
  • joefitz22 wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    Litty posted videos before launch in the same window you get videos from our team showing off new features. He chose to do behind the scenes looks of stuff with his personal camera when he was playing but those are similar to the dev diaries we do. It is possible due to rev rec issues not being as big at the time, he was able to do that with some patches as well but we wouldn't be able to do that now. What I talk about on the forums is about as far as I can go.

    Littman did dev diaries as well, if I recall correctly. The Rammer era hasn't been kind in terms of transparency. It seems like we only get to see and hear what EA wants us to see and hear. In fact, we didn't hear from anyone at all during the NHL 15 days! ;)

    And the request by JoeFitz to get videos showing what has been fixed was a fantastic idea. It's just EA doesn't want that to happen. They want this company-consumer relationship to remain as one-sided as possible. Heck, even during GameChangers everything was behind closed doors and we were only given info based on what EA decided was allowed to be talked about.

    Stuff like this is why people have trust issues with the direction of this series.

    Thank You for the kind words. You know you look at a Company like LL Bean. I bought a pair of hiking boots from them back in 2012 (to wear to work). I managed to get 3 good long HARD years out of those boots. They have a Customer Satisfaction Guarantee on the back of their receipt. I took those boots back in may 2015. Despite those boots having 3yrs of use and abuse, smelly and just plain rancid (LOL), they Happily took them back (NO questions asked, NO accusations, NO nothing). They APOLOGIZED to me (Product Failure) told me to go pick a NEW pair of boots. I got a pair of $140 hiking boots for $72.99...they DISCOUNTED the NEW boots because their Product FAILED (despite me being satisfied with the boots...Hey, I got 3yrs out of them...I'll take that....lol)

    Here is what the back of the receipt says: (I bolded a part of it)

    Our products are guaranteed to give 100% satisfaction in every way. Return anything purchased from us at any time if it proves otherwise. We do not want you to have anything from L.L.Bean that is not completely satisfactory.

    We bring issues up to EA and we get looked at like our head is on backwards, then you get the EA fanboys that criticize you and say it's Your fault not EAs. They ask us for Video Evidence, the Community provides that evidence (BMH leading the charge) but yet when we ask the same of EA (video evidence that they are indeed fixing said issues, we get the run around...you'll see it when we put it in the game)

    Lol, they discontinued the boots because they were 3 years old, and had been replaced by an updated model. Thats how western consumerism works.

    Any good points you have, get lost in a sea of stupidity and angst.
  • joefitz22 wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    Litty posted videos before launch in the same window you get videos from our team showing off new features. He chose to do behind the scenes looks of stuff with his personal camera when he was playing but those are similar to the dev diaries we do. It is possible due to rev rec issues not being as big at the time, he was able to do that with some patches as well but we wouldn't be able to do that now. What I talk about on the forums is about as far as I can go.

    Littman did dev diaries as well, if I recall correctly. The Rammer era hasn't been kind in terms of transparency. It seems like we only get to see and hear what EA wants us to see and hear. In fact, we didn't hear from anyone at all during the NHL 15 days! ;)

    And the request by JoeFitz to get videos showing what has been fixed was a fantastic idea. It's just EA doesn't want that to happen. They want this company-consumer relationship to remain as one-sided as possible. Heck, even during GameChangers everything was behind closed doors and we were only given info based on what EA decided was allowed to be talked about.

    Stuff like this is why people have trust issues with the direction of this series.

    Thank You for the kind words. You know you look at a Company like LL Bean. I bought a pair of hiking boots from them back in 2012 (to wear to work). I managed to get 3 good long HARD years out of those boots. They have a Customer Satisfaction Guarantee on the back of their receipt. I took those boots back in may 2015. Despite those boots having 3yrs of use and abuse, smelly and just plain rancid (LOL), they Happily took them back (NO questions asked, NO accusations, NO nothing). They APOLOGIZED to me (Product Failure) told me to go pick a NEW pair of boots. I got a pair of $140 hiking boots for $72.99...they DISCOUNTED the NEW boots because their Product FAILED (despite me being satisfied with the boots...Hey, I got 3yrs out of them...I'll take that....lol)

    Here is what the back of the receipt says: (I bolded a part of it)

    Our products are guaranteed to give 100% satisfaction in every way. Return anything purchased from us at any time if it proves otherwise. We do not want you to have anything from L.L.Bean that is not completely satisfactory.

    We bring issues up to EA and we get looked at like our head is on backwards, then you get the EA fanboys that criticize you and say it's Your fault not EAs. They ask us for Video Evidence, the Community provides that evidence (BMH leading the charge) but yet when we ask the same of EA (video evidence that they are indeed fixing said issues, we get the run around...you'll see it when we put it in the game)

    Lol, they discontinued the boots because they were 3 years old, and had been replaced by an updated model. Thats how western consumerism works.

    Any good points you have, get lost in a sea of stupidity and angst.

    Mate, LL BEAN did not, I repeat DID NOT have to replace the boots at all but they did. That's good customer service! They could've said Sorry Sir, boots are worn/torn and that models has been discontinued since 2012, we can't help you and sent me on my way But they went out of their way to Ensure Customer Satisfaction
  • joefitz22 wrote: »
    joefitz22 wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    Litty posted videos before launch in the same window you get videos from our team showing off new features. He chose to do behind the scenes looks of stuff with his personal camera when he was playing but those are similar to the dev diaries we do. It is possible due to rev rec issues not being as big at the time, he was able to do that with some patches as well but we wouldn't be able to do that now. What I talk about on the forums is about as far as I can go.

    Littman did dev diaries as well, if I recall correctly. The Rammer era hasn't been kind in terms of transparency. It seems like we only get to see and hear what EA wants us to see and hear. In fact, we didn't hear from anyone at all during the NHL 15 days! ;)

    And the request by JoeFitz to get videos showing what has been fixed was a fantastic idea. It's just EA doesn't want that to happen. They want this company-consumer relationship to remain as one-sided as possible. Heck, even during GameChangers everything was behind closed doors and we were only given info based on what EA decided was allowed to be talked about.

    Stuff like this is why people have trust issues with the direction of this series.

    Thank You for the kind words. You know you look at a Company like LL Bean. I bought a pair of hiking boots from them back in 2012 (to wear to work). I managed to get 3 good long HARD years out of those boots. They have a Customer Satisfaction Guarantee on the back of their receipt. I took those boots back in may 2015. Despite those boots having 3yrs of use and abuse, smelly and just plain rancid (LOL), they Happily took them back (NO questions asked, NO accusations, NO nothing). They APOLOGIZED to me (Product Failure) told me to go pick a NEW pair of boots. I got a pair of $140 hiking boots for $72.99...they DISCOUNTED the NEW boots because their Product FAILED (despite me being satisfied with the boots...Hey, I got 3yrs out of them...I'll take that....lol)

    Here is what the back of the receipt says: (I bolded a part of it)

    Our products are guaranteed to give 100% satisfaction in every way. Return anything purchased from us at any time if it proves otherwise. We do not want you to have anything from L.L.Bean that is not completely satisfactory.

    We bring issues up to EA and we get looked at like our head is on backwards, then you get the EA fanboys that criticize you and say it's Your fault not EAs. They ask us for Video Evidence, the Community provides that evidence (BMH leading the charge) but yet when we ask the same of EA (video evidence that they are indeed fixing said issues, we get the run around...you'll see it when we put it in the game)

    Lol, they discontinued the boots because they were 3 years old, and had been replaced by an updated model. Thats how western consumerism works.

    Any good points you have, get lost in a sea of stupidity and angst.

    Mate, LL BEAN did not, I repeat DID NOT have to replace the boots at all but they did. That's good customer service! They could've said Sorry Sir, boots are worn/torn and that models has been discontinued since 2012, we can't help you and sent me on my way But they went out of their way to Ensure Customer Satisfaction

    You need to learn how **** works. Sounds like they have an awesome exchange policy, but that's more out of avoiding difficult customer's ridiculous demands and making **** easier on themselves than providing customer satisfaction . Not saying you're one of those types of customer's . 3 year's of heavy usage is not defective. That's called normal wear and tear.

    Point is though, we live in a world where we are indoctrinated to always buy the newer version of something. Everything is designed to be consumed and replaced ad nauseum. Literally every new "thing" is only slightly improved over its predecessor, and it's designed like that soley to continue the failed capitalism system we've all been living in. But now I'm going off topic, so I'll stop here, and consider the discussion over.
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