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EA Dev, TPS needs to be better or else this game will never reach potential

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  • NHLDev wrote: »

    Until we change controls and/or movement for precision skating OR until we give unique control over your upper body from your lower, this discussion and each of your points will remain the same. I suggest taking a breather, know that we are looking at how to further improve it and that is really all that can be said at this time. Anything beyond that will just be stating the same points in different ways and anything to save more bickering on the forums would be nice.

    i think for starters you should try to fix our guys auto spinning/pivoting/tilting... whatever you want to call it. see how that plays out then go on to whatever experimental ideas you may have. more likely than not i envision this being heavily abused if it's ever implemented. as another poster mentioned it's best to keep it simple.

    the gameplay used to be very good, nhl 09-11 was easily my favorite sports series of all time. if i may ask why so much focus on tearing down the gameplay when it was an already very popular and well received game among the community? the main complaints were seemingly easy fixes such as fixing loop glitches, getting NHL player faces in the game, updating rosters more frequently, improving on the lobby system, cleaning up the menus and presentation etc. why blow up the gameplay and ignore everything else when it was fine as is? that time could have been spent polishing the game while doing real innovating stuff to keep us engaged and attract new players such as introducing the winter classic outdoor stadiums for EASHL and HUT, optimizing matchmaking, improving club (to where it's at now with customization). i am really curious as to why the team felt a total refresher in gameplay was needed as opposed to building on an already successful foundation?
  • sgiz1
    537 posts Member
    TPS and removal of classic vision control broke this game.

    The game is not fluid anymore, its clunky, skating is not responsive, you fight the controller, animations get in the way, you can't face the puck correctly, etc.

    Its now just a slow cluster f$%$ of a game, nothing smooth or fluid about it.
  • sgiz1 wrote: »
    TPS and removal of classic vision control broke this game.

    The game is not fluid anymore, its clunky, skating is not responsive, you fight the controller, animations get in the way, you can't face the puck correctly, etc.

    Its now just a slow cluster f$%$ of a game, nothing smooth or fluid about it.

    This is absolutely the worst part of this game (aside from online lag)
  • EA has your money. They continue to release patches that actually make the gameplay worse, not better. Take todays for example. Made the pf build shot worse. Grinder passing? Worse. Ability to pick up a puck? Less responsive. LMAO Great updates EA!
  • EA has your money. They continue to release patches that actually make the gameplay worse, not better. Take todays for example. Made the pf build shot worse. Grinder passing? Worse. Ability to pick up a puck? Less responsive. LMAO Great updates EA!

    Everyone uses grinder and PF.

    I have to assume that is a driver.

    We simply MUST have parity.

    ice-hockey-team.jpg
  • VeNOM2099
    3178 posts Member
    edited January 2017
    EA has your money. They continue to release patches that actually make the gameplay worse, not better. Take todays for example. Made the pf build shot worse. Grinder passing? Worse. Ability to pick up a puck? Less responsive. LMAO Great updates EA!

    I had this discussion with my club last night. Before the patch, there was absolutely NO reason to pick PF over Grinder except that PF had a slightly better shot. Now the discrepancy between both builds has been widened and the GRINDER is mainly going to be your choice if you want to muck about and be a physical presence in the offensive zone, parking your big carcass in front of the net and looking for deflections. And PF will be preferred by players who like to go into corners to retrieve pucks and set up plays on the turnovers.

    As for puck pick ups, the player losing the puck would recover it, many times while the puck was behind him, almost immediately. This needed to be nerfed to reward defensive players that are good at knocking the puck away. Learn to pass the puck instead of trying to force you way through.
  • Ability to pick up a puck? Less responsive. LMAO Great updates EA!

    Are you kidding? This was an excellent change. This year, the game artificially slowed down offensive players to enable them to pick up the puck after it had been knocked loose or poked, which is why just skating into traffic and hoping you'd come out with the puck on the other hand was a successful offensive strategy. Changing that -- if the patch actually has -- would be a big deal, and a real improvement.

  • Bmh245 wrote: »
    Ability to pick up a puck? Less responsive. LMAO Great updates EA!

    Are you kidding? This was an excellent change. This year, the game artificially slowed down offensive players to enable them to pick up the puck after it had been knocked loose or poked, which is why just skating into traffic and hoping you'd come out with the puck on the other hand was a successful offensive strategy. Changing that -- if the patch actually has -- would be a big deal, and a real improvement.

    This has been an issue for a while. And maybe I misunderstood it, but I thought the change made this year was to do exactly what the new patch is claiming to do. I didn't think they made a change to make it easier to retrieve the puck if you just lost it.

    We'll see what happens, but I hope it works, because I'm tired of hearing doc come up with 4 different ways to say I stole the puck while the other guy is still skating to the net like he's the only one on the ice.
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    edited January 2017
    Bmh245 wrote: »
    Ability to pick up a puck? Less responsive. LMAO Great updates EA!

    Are you kidding? This was an excellent change. This year, the game artificially slowed down offensive players to enable them to pick up the puck after it had been knocked loose or poked, which is why just skating into traffic and hoping you'd come out with the puck on the other hand was a successful offensive strategy. Changing that -- if the patch actually has -- would be a big deal, and a real improvement.

    This has been an issue for a while. And maybe I misunderstood it, but I thought the change made this year was to do exactly what the new patch is claiming to do. I didn't think they made a change to make it easier to retrieve the puck if you just lost it.

    We'll see what happens, but I hope it works, because I'm tired of hearing doc come up with 4 different ways to say I stole the puck while the other guy is still skating to the net like he's the only one on the ice.

    There were two contradicting requests between last year and this year when it came to the isolated case of a puck carrier having the puck knocked loose. Pickups needed to be better overall and defense should have been more rewarded for making a good defensive play.

    In the Beta, I felt that the balance was pretty good. In the first patch, we added more pickup coverage to fix the first issue. As a side effect, puck carriers then had more coverage to retrieve pucks tight to their skates and kick back up with their skates when the puck was lost near them, etc. There wasn't anything added to slow offensive players down though.

    So after it was felt that the puck carrier was too good at getting pucks back from the pickup changes, we added delay in the 1.01 tuner to their ability to recover and retrieve a lost puck since they were acting almost instantaneous before. This delay was also modulated by ratings for player differentiation in puck control/possession.

    In the latest tuner, we further increased that delay.
  • RSall14
    613 posts Member
    edited January 2017
    Just played a few games with my club and as a dman I'm happy with the changes for EASHL. My player actually intercepts the puck with ease when it's thrown right at me. If my stick is in a lane my player will actually react and not just stand there like a clueless moron. Pucks come off clean when poked, the puck carrier doesn't snag it back like they used to. I also feel like I don't drift like I used to before the patch. I can make small movements and adjustments without having to fight the controller. I will say though that all of this means nothing if you don't play on your native server.

    EDIT: I play as an offensive dman for those wondering.
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    RSall14 wrote: »
    Just played a few games with my club and as a dman I'm happy with the changes for EASHL. My player actually intercepts the puck with ease when it's thrown right at me. If my stick is in a lane my player will actually react and not just stand there like a clueless moron. Pucks come off clean when poked, the puck carrier doesn't snag it back like they used to. I also feel like I don't drift like I used to before the patch. I can make small movements and adjustments without having to fight the controller. I will say though that all of this means nothing if you don't play on your native server.

    EDIT: I play as an offensive dman for those wondering.

    Good to hear. Thanks for the feedback. And here's to hoping you can keep getting games with that level of connection.
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    RSall14 wrote: »
    Just played a few games with my club and as a dman I'm happy with the changes for EASHL. My player actually intercepts the puck with ease when it's thrown right at me. If my stick is in a lane my player will actually react and not just stand there like a clueless moron. Pucks come off clean when poked, the puck carrier doesn't snag it back like they used to. I also feel like I don't drift like I used to before the patch. I can make small movements and adjustments without having to fight the controller. I will say though that all of this means nothing if you don't play on your native server.

    EDIT: I play as an offensive dman for those wondering.

    Good to hear. Thanks for the feedback. And here's to hoping you can keep getting games with that level of connection.

    The patch is absolutely terrific. Love the puck being looser, my poke checks finally mean something. Nudges and light(er) shoves also are more effective at knocking players off the puck. It changes the game entirely, battles in the corner actually feel like battles in the corner. It may just be placebo, but I feel like the skating is a bit more precise too and I haven't gotten stuck into nearly as many unwanted turns or sloppy pivots.

    I'm going to be playing the game obsessively again.
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    Bmh245 wrote: »
    Ability to pick up a puck? Less responsive. LMAO Great updates EA!

    Are you kidding? This was an excellent change. This year, the game artificially slowed down offensive players to enable them to pick up the puck after it had been knocked loose or poked, which is why just skating into traffic and hoping you'd come out with the puck on the other hand was a successful offensive strategy. Changing that -- if the patch actually has -- would be a big deal, and a real improvement.

    This has been an issue for a while. And maybe I misunderstood it, but I thought the change made this year was to do exactly what the new patch is claiming to do. I didn't think they made a change to make it easier to retrieve the puck if you just lost it.

    We'll see what happens, but I hope it works, because I'm tired of hearing doc come up with 4 different ways to say I stole the puck while the other guy is still skating to the net like he's the only one on the ice.

    There were two contradicting requests between last year and this year when it came to the isolated case of a puck carrier having the puck knocked loose. Pickups needed to be better overall and defense should have been more rewarded for making a good defensive play.

    In the Beta, I felt that the balance was pretty good. In the first patch, we added more pickup coverage to fix the first issue. As a side effect, puck carriers then had more coverage to retrieve pucks tight to their skates and kick back up with their skates when the puck was lost near them, etc. There wasn't anything added to slow offensive players down though.

    So after it was felt that the puck carrier was too good at getting pucks back from the pickup changes, we added delay in the 1.01 tuner to their ability to recover and retrieve a lost puck since they were acting almost instantaneous before. This delay was also modulated by ratings for player differentiation in puck control/possession.

    In the latest tuner, we further increased that delay.

    I think the biggest issues with players picking up the puck after it being knocked loose from their stick , poke checks seem to NOT have improved momentum based on player speed , what should be a good hard poke doesn't happen the puck magically stays in place on a full speed poke .

    Then the other issue is when the patch came out that boosted the ability to kick the puck to skate, all of a sudden now they are warping the puck from 2 feet to their skate and into their stick .... Why not fix that, and improve poke check logic, this is a decent quick fix , but shouldn't be the fix you stick with ...
  • Bmh245 wrote: »
    n regards to Shero's fundamental rules; I would say TPS doesn't pervent us from doing any of those things. I would simply say a lot of players just don't know how to use it properly or refuse to.

    I'd love to see a video of any 5v5 game where not a single player turns their back to the play. Surely if it were that easy, all of the best teams would be doing it. It doesn't even need to be both teams doing it, just your own team not turning your back to the play.

    I'll wait.

    No video needed. If a player has his back to the play then he clearly isn't using the vision control button and/or a particular animation/transition temporarily was the cause. Also in some cases TPS might make it a difficult to face the play 100% but it doesn't completely cause my player to have his back to the play.

    Then AI players must not know how to use VC or TPS, because they violate Shero's rule all the time. They constantly turn their back on the play, on offense and defense.

    Here's Hawerchuk, should be making himself available for a pass from Shanahan for the one-timer. Nope, he decides to turn his back on Shanahan instead, I guess hoping someone in the stands might pass him the puck:



    Or watch #22, the defenseman in front of the net, on this play. I ended up getting a goal on a nice one-timer, but I was surely helped along by the fact that #22 -- whose defensive awareness is close to 90 -- never once even looks at the puck, which kind of makes it hard to play defense:



    Here's Redden (94 defensive awareness), similarly, keeping his back turned to the puck for an entire play:



    That whole list of Shero's rules is a great showcase of all that's wrong with this game, and with the AI in particular, since they violate so many of his rules over and over again, especially on defense.

    Sorry then as I didn't mention I was talking about us human players in EASHL and not about the AI.

    I also don't know why someone would talk about how the AI plays or doesn't play in a discussion about TPS. I don't think it matters which skating engine is in play when it comes to the AI. The AI were doing the same things with the old skating system too.

    Lol wut? I'm all for TPS and prefer the skating how it is now much more than how it was pre-TPS, but I'm also not an idiot. The skating engine being used by us is ALSO the one being used by the AI players, is it not? Furthermore, there are clear and blatant issues that the AI has with the skating engine. Whether it's getting spun around during an offensive cycle down low or not pivoting correctly while covering the forward on the back door.

    Point is: the AI are definitely part of the discussion when it comes to TPS.
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    As a side effect, puck carriers then had more coverage to retrieve pucks tight to their skates and kick back up with their skates when the puck was lost near them, etc. There wasn't anything added to slow offensive players down though.

    Wait, what are you talking about? In the clip below, the offensive player comes close to a complete stop (at the 0:17 mark) in order to pick up the puck. The user isn't telling him to do that -- he's pushing up on the LS the entire time. It's the game that slows him down in order to enable him to recover the puck:



    Similarly, here, the offensive player goes into a glide to pick up the puck. That's again not because the user is telling him to do it -- he's pushing up on the LS. That's the game putting him into a glide so that he can pick up the puck:



    If you didn't add that into the game, how did it get in there?

  • RSall14 wrote: »
    Just played a few games with my club and as a dman I'm happy with the changes for EASHL. My player actually intercepts the puck with ease when it's thrown right at me. If my stick is in a lane my player will actually react and not just stand there like a clueless moron. Pucks come off clean when poked, the puck carrier doesn't snag it back like they used to. I also feel like I don't drift like I used to before the patch. I can make small movements and adjustments without having to fight the controller. I will say though that all of this means nothing if you don't play on your native server.

    EDIT: I play as an offensive dman for those wondering.
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  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    edited January 2017
    Bmh245 wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    As a side effect, puck carriers then had more coverage to retrieve pucks tight to their skates and kick back up with their skates when the puck was lost near them, etc. There wasn't anything added to slow offensive players down though.

    Wait, what are you talking about? In the clip below, the offensive player comes close to a complete stop (at the 0:17 mark) in order to pick up the puck. The user isn't telling him to do that -- he's pushing up on the LS the entire time. It's the game that slows him down in order to enable him to recover the puck:

    Similarly, here, the offensive player goes into a glide to pick up the puck. That's again not because the user is telling him to do it -- he's pushing up on the LS. That's the game putting him into a glide so that he can pick up the puck:

    If you didn't add that into the game, how did it get in there?

    After watching the clips the first time, I wasn't sure what you meant because of how you were also manually changing the speeds of the replays but when I looked back again I see what you mean in the first clip. That looks like a blend issue for sure where the turning pickup is modulating the speed too much and that is a valid issue for sure.

    In the legacy system a pickup will go into a constant speed when picking up the puck from where you were, so they don't slow down but they don't continue to accelerate until after they get the puck.

    In the new system, which includes some of the turning pickups in your clips, it recognizes the angle requested in the controller, realizes it can pickup the puck by turning through it to get to that angle rather than locking into a glide through the pickup straight and then turning after.

    The turn is going to be slower than accelerating straight through the puck and the pickup is going to match the speed it needs to get the puck in stride. Again, looking at your clip, the range the player is able to modulate in that clip either seems like it is too much or there is a bug there. It really could have been aggressive tuning by the animators in that case because of the claims people had that pickups weren't happening when they should. Something we can log and look into.

    I took your claim as meaning that in the skating system itself, we artificially stopped players from skating forwards and then played pickups which isn't the case but in the pickups themselves, there will be speed increases and decreases depending on if they are accelerating through, turning through, asking for an actual stopping pickup, etc.
  • sgiz1
    537 posts Member
    Lets get this topic back on track please.

    This is about how bad TPS is, and what EA can do to make it more responsive....
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