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A fine example of terrible logic...

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Here is both terrible player switching log, and terrible AI logic ... http://imgur.com/F3himmj

First off, I was NOT ABLE to switch, I stuck on my man, even pressing and holding did not bring me to the furthest man back... Obviously this guy is on very aggressive breakout, and I have TWO DEFENDERS BACK TO COVER, Thomas kaberle on RD and Rob blake on LD, WHAT A PAIR I KNOW ( but thanks to poor logic ratings really don't matter in this game now do they ?? ) , anyways two defenders back, and what happens, asides not being able to switch, so now I have to rely on my teammate, AKA the AI, who really, does nothing , thank to TERRIBLE LOGIC... So why does kaberle not go and get his man, he starts following him then bails on him to go give blake a kiss , meanwhile blake notices his check, who is also an AI decides to curl back and abandon his player, so he tries to make up for kaberle in his infinite stupidity, and for the poor player switch logic had it been any decent I would have been able to play my man, AKA switch to kaberle, and blake would have had his man and this play would have been a 2 on 2 ... but terrible logic says this is somehow an easy break away , maybe kaberle got caught up in the bad TPS system causing him to swoop away from the play ? that does happen ...

And to boot, this is HUT and its plays like this, that make people scream out MOMENTUM ENGINE !! But I have to say its just REALLY BAD MECHANICS AND LOGIC , as you can see both our AI did something that no nhl player would have.

Some solutions, are obviously , better player switching logic, especially not one that locks you into a player. Better blue line logic, why was the AI trying to run in then, he started getting speed to early and mistimed the entrance very poorly. Why does Kaberle swoop away from the defender ? might want to improve the TPS , I believe that was the true issue with that... Also why wasn't blake trying to be in the zone earlier, My strategies were not aggressive, 3- 2 forecheck, normal pressure, and 1-3-1 , which is supposed to garuntee me a guy deep in the zone for dump ins, why was Blake not that guy ? and kaberle trying to play the pass.

not to mention this was one of those bad games my AI just seemed dumb, I ended up quitting as I didn't feel like fighting game mechanics, even my trevor linden , 90 + poise discipline and stiiick checking ( with s s well) was spamming stick lift and smashing people in the face, and I was unable to switch to him to play my man, instead I want to watch my compy butcher the game, and crash into each other, while his seemed to have much smarter pathing and he was able to switch to play me ... very odd ...

Replies

  • Would it be better if you shared a video rather than tell a lengthy story that amounts to more confusion?
  • Dixonyu wrote: »
    Here is both terrible player switching log, and terrible AI logic ... http://imgur.com/F3himmj

    First off, I was NOT ABLE to switch, I stuck on my man, even pressing and holding did not bring me to the furthest man back... Obviously this guy is on very aggressive breakout, and I have TWO DEFENDERS BACK TO COVER, Thomas kaberle on RD and Rob blake on LD, WHAT A PAIR I KNOW ( but thanks to poor logic ratings really don't matter in this game now do they ?? ) , anyways two defenders back, and what happens, asides not being able to switch, so now I have to rely on my teammate, AKA the AI, who really, does nothing , thank to TERRIBLE LOGIC... So why does kaberle not go and get his man, he starts following him then bails on him to go give blake a kiss , meanwhile blake notices his check, who is also an AI decides to curl back and abandon his player, so he tries to make up for kaberle in his infinite stupidity, and for the poor player switch logic had it been any decent I would have been able to play my man, AKA switch to kaberle, and blake would have had his man and this play would have been a 2 on 2 ... but terrible logic says this is somehow an easy break away , maybe kaberle got caught up in the bad TPS system causing him to swoop away from the play ? that does happen ...

    It feels like a quarter of all the goals in HUT are scored because of plays like this. The combination of the game's dopey AI and terrible switchng is just deadly.
  • I have issues switching off players as well. New controller and sometimes I have to press the trigger twice for it to work. Hate the ai. Always seems like either you opponents ai is OP and your sucks, or visa vers
  • Rangersny81
    173 posts Member
    edited February 2017
    Dixonyu wrote: »
    So why does kaberle not go and get his man, he starts following him then bails on him to go give blake a kiss

    My favorite line. Yup, sometimes the AI will just go 'braindead' and abandon all logic. What gets frustrating is when they seem hell-bent to either get in your way or get in the way of your shot.

    Bmh245 wrote: »
    It feels like a quarter of all the goals in HUT are scored because of plays like this. The combination of the game's dopey AI and terrible switchng is just deadly.

    It definitely affects games. There is without question that it has decided game outcomes. It leaves you feeling helpless, especially when player switch stops working, there is literally nothing you can do but pray your opponent doesn't score. You're absolutely helpless on defense, which should never happen in an online, competitive environment.

    These two areas (AI and player switching) have to be at the top of the priority list for next year. They should be above even adding new modes. That's how important addressing them is because they tarnish the fun and the skill of playing against others online (and I'm sure it affects offline as well).

    Having a mapping system for playing switch could be a welcomed addition. However, first and foremost, the simple R2 press needs to work like it used to. In terms of AI, they need to stop doing things that harm your team. They don't need to take penalties for us (we can do that ourselves), they don't need to defend for us, just make them standard. In other words, just make them reliable enough to be in decent position so when we switch to them we're not having to make-up ground for them.

    Honestly, in my opinion, it would be nice if the offline AI and the online AI were different. Offline AI should be more 'active' in order to make Franchise mode more fun vs. the computer. Online, however, they should not be deciding games because of their poor play.

    My final suggestion for online AI is make line changes manual. Or, at least give us the option to keep line changes manual only online. I say this because the AI sometimes will make line changes at very inopportune times. You carry the puck into your opponent's zone and, out of your control, your entire team has decided to line change leaving you in a 1v5 position on offense.

    Additionally, another moment that occasionally takes place. Your opponent gathers the puck but both of your defenders back decided to take line changes. This then leaves your opponent a red carpet down the ice for a free breakaway attempt (usually an unnecessary goal against).



  • To add , again, the ability to micro manage your players, how they play ,their tendencies, set whether you want them to poke or hit, what to want your weak side d or winger to do in certain situations... This way we can strategize, we know what are players are gonna do, and we can better work as a team with out AI teammates, basically so we can put the AI on the same page as the player.
  • If everyone could set their own strategies, it would immensely diversify HUT and VS. As it is, the AI is always the same and incredibly predictable, making it all too easy to abuse, or, it is the complete cheese fest that it is now.

    Give players the ability to define how they want their AI to play, and you will see alot of cheesers slide down the leaderboards....
  • Rangersny81
    173 posts Member
    edited February 2017
    AI shouldn't be deciding online games in any way, in my opinion. They should just be in the right position for you to switch to them without having to skate a ridiculous distance to make-up for them skating off into la la land.

    AI shouldn't be throwing checks or pokechecking opponents online. This is why skill zoning can work for some people who don't want to user defend. People do the same thing in NBA 2k, they take their user controlled guy and hang out near the coach while the computer plays defense for them.

    I'm good with AI strategies telling them what positions to go to. However, I still don't think there should be any strategy that makes them play more superior or less superior. Offline, should be a different story with the AI because this is you vs the computer scenario.

    As dumb as the AI looks most of the time, I've also seen them look like terminators. Just play someone who puts the controller down and watch how fast the AI goes from dumb to heat-seeking missile mode.
  • If everyone could set their own strategies, it would immensely diversify HUT and VS. As it is, the AI is always the same and incredibly predictable, making it all too easy to abuse, or, it is the complete cheese fest that it is now.

    Give players the ability to define how they want their AI to play, and you will see alot of cheesers slide down the leaderboards....

    My problem, actually, isn't that the AI is too predictable -- although in certain situations (like the far-side defenseman's refusal to come over and control the center of the ice against a 2v1), it is. My problem is that it's too inconsistent -- you're completely at the mercy of the AI. If it's playing to your strategies, breaking out of the zone, playing smartly on the rush, you're in good shape. If it's not, you're at a serious disadvantage.

    It doesn't have to be this way. As far back as FIFA 99, you could tell individual players where they were supposed to play in the context of the offense as a whole (how far up or back in their zone they would be. We've never had anything like that on defense, so we're just at the mercy of the CPU and whether it has AI players follow the strategy you've given them or not. On offense, created plays gave us much more control over offensive players -- especially on the breakout and the rush, but that's gone, and EA, bizarrely, shows no interest in bringing it back.


  • Dixonyu
    675 posts Member
    edited February 2017
    AI shouldn't be deciding online games in any way, in my opinion. They should just be in the right position for you to switch to them without having to skate a ridiculous distance to make-up for them skating off into la la land.

    AI shouldn't be throwing checks or pokechecking opponents online. This is why skill zoning can work for some people who don't want to user defend. People do the same thing in NBA 2k, they take their user controlled guy and hang out near the coach while the computer plays defense for them.

    I'm good with AI strategies telling them what positions to go to. However, I still don't think there should be any strategy that makes them play more superior or less superior. Offline, should be a different story with the AI because this is you vs the computer scenario.

    As dumb as the AI looks most of the time, I've also seen them look like terminators. Just play someone who puts the controller down and watch how fast the AI goes from dumb to heat-seeking missile mode.

    The AI is your teammate , and has to be able to cover their man,. Even if they perfect player switching, it's still not viable to switch from player to player to try and play the puck carrier as you will always be that big behind the play ... 1 v 1 play though, the AI shouldn't be programmed to be as good as human, as i mentioned before we should start by reducing their reaction times, and abilities to track passes in an instant, and track loose pucks as well as they can, they know it's gonna be a loose puck and where it's going as it happens.
  • Or how about the the board tie up logic ... http://imgur.com/Y1sqXGy

    He stops me mid stride, turns me around, and pushes me that far from boards into the boards , and my player lets it happen , ya right ea ... Get out of here .... shouldn't be able to tie up against momentum ...
  • Dixonyu
    675 posts Member
    edited February 2017
    Or how about the AI getting goaltender Inference all the time because they have no basic logic or intelligence ... http://imgur.com/zQia83u

    I don't even like the ai crossing over when you cross over... I am on overload, why isn't he keeping the triangle, staying in open ice, or just chilling for the rebound or pass ?? But the silly logic says ai will cross yyou in the slot, and it will either bump you, the other team, or the other teams goalie ... just stupid . NO nhl player is this stupid ... I want my ai to find open ice or an open lane, and stay there , no crossing into my players lane or the goalie ... and yes that's 99 Richards, with 99 OFF awareness, and poise... Not very poised or aware is he ?? yet another reason why stats mean nothing because the AI is too stupidly programmed, has no tendencies, or awareness to speak of...

    Btw some cheesey play there I know... But its stuff EA hasn't changed FOR YEARS, s why not exploit it ?
  • Or the as DUMB as the AI is ... They can still make amazing heads up plays like this ... http://imgur.com/BMxFvju


    NO human would have went there looking to knock that puck down, they would've went and played their man... No human player could have predicted this heads up play ... Yet the CPU have the distinct advantage of knowing where to be, and the CONFIDENCE to know he is gonna bat it down and retrieve it RIGHT SMACK ON THE EDGE OF THE BLUE LINE ... not a human play what-so-ever .
  • 4 games after mike Richards screws me out of a goal .. in comes movember toews ... http://imgur.com/C2H6jOK

    Maybe he was jealous he wasn't getting a point ? I mean he does barely make contact, it doesn't seem to affect the goalie , but none the less the great logic of this game, which he was is again on overload ( for skilled players my ****), has him parked in the crease... HOW ABOUT HE GETS IN FRONT OF THE GOALIE AND SCREENS... BTW EA this happens too often, sick of these poor game mechanics, whats worse is they always seem to be fighting me, meanwhile favoring my opponent ... I think its been about 50 games since my opponents AI has cost him a goal, yet it happens to me ever 3-5 games.
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    Dixonyu wrote: »
    4 games after mike Richards screws me out of a goal .. in comes movember toews ... http://imgur.com/C2H6jOK

    Maybe he was jealous he wasn't getting a point ? I mean he does barely make contact, it doesn't seem to affect the goalie , but none the less the great logic of this game, which he was is again on overload ( for skilled players my ****), has him parked in the crease... HOW ABOUT HE GETS IN FRONT OF THE GOALIE AND SCREENS... BTW EA this happens too often, sick of these poor game mechanics, whats worse is they always seem to be fighting me, meanwhile favoring my opponent ... I think its been about 50 games since my opponents AI has cost him a goal, yet it happens to me ever 3-5 games.

    Really surprised this was called off. Thanks for posting. I will make sure it is included with our incorrect goalie interference examples.
  • @EA_NHLDevs thanks for letting me know it just wasn't poor AI logic, it was also poor goalie interfence logic :( ... im not surprised it got called off, I get screwed over many times playing online, I am not blessed like some people who seem to never be able to make mistakes ...

    Anyways, on to this very disturbing and extremely poor logic of the AI ... http://imgur.com/BnyFg67

    This game shouldn't have made it passed test phase. First, EXCELLENT seemless puck pick up by kadri, who completely skates by a loose and stagnant puck, and to start practice mode to boot, so I hit right trigger, doesn't work I am spamming it and hoping im gonna blip into the left D man, of course in practise mode I cannot even change players, how pathetically bad is that... Then, the AI PURPOSEFULLY MISSES THE PUCK, they skate to it and TURN AWAY FROM IT, they WANT NOTHING TO DO WITH THE PUCK WHAT SO EVER... they are clueless and lost , then after going offsides, the one AI finally figures out something important is missing from this play, they need the puck, there is no defender ready to defend against the puck carrier as well. Then I can finally switch players, and its to the left wing who is NOW BEHIND THE PLAY, why not the LEft D in front of the play ?!?!?

    This video is very disturbing , I mean how can the AI not recognize a loose puck, the poor puck pick ups, the TERRIBLE ABSOLUTELY UNNACCEPTABLEY TERRIBLE PLAYER CHANGE, why cant I change , why am I locked into a player, for god sakes man this is just a practise mode game and everything about it is wrong, now imagine going online having a bit of a latency issues, or having this affect you... Obviously one teams AI was smarter in that play, not by much, but a least on teams AI figured out to pick up the puck while the other was lost completely ... This is a pathetic video , and the devs should honestly be ashamed to see this, this is how terrible your AI is ...
  • BSDShoes
    115 posts Member
    edited February 2017
    AI teammate does this all the time, and it's worse in FIFA- they just run away from the puck/ball or lets the carrier run by. I also hate it when there's a loose puck sitting on the ice and teammates just skates away, even opposing AI sometimes just stands there, I may still have a video of one example so I'll have to have a look see.
  • If the AI was competent, played their position, stood up when they should, etc etc etc...there would be too much complaining that the game is too hard. A stacked team of Rob Blake and the like on the back-end that actually played the way their super-attributes should would create such an imbalance where players may have to actually TRY to score...this is bad for business people. Can't you see that?
  • What gets me, especially with puck pick ups is I Honestly believe IF the Dev team went out to the parking lot or ice rink and put on skates, they might actually get a better idea of all this stuff that plagues this series and have an idea how stupid it looks in their game. You can bring in NHL players to do MoCap/Q&A but until YOU yourself are physically put into those scenarios, do you really have an understanding of it?

    Go to a local ice rink (empty, so you can test out all these problems without being bothered).

    Experiment #1: BEFORE YOU EVEN step on the ice, chuck a single puck out onto the ice, WAIT until the puck comes to a complete stop, step onto the ice and then Skate TOWARDS said loose/dead puck and pick it up (try it from a dead stop and then again while in forward motion). As a player, when I get near the puck my Brain tells me to put my stick out in front of me to....wait for it.....wait for it.....CORAL the loose puck....I don't just randomly skate circles around it, I don't just randomly skate over top of it like it's not there.

    Experiment #2: Carry the puck with speed then go into a glide, hold the stick far out to either side (what does that physically do to your body...legs, arms...how stretched out is your upper body, what does it feel like on your muscles, how much speed do you retain, can you spin and twirl, etc etc??)

    Experiment #3: Carry the puck with speed then go into a glide, hold the puck/stick BEHIND YOU (how does it contort your body...legs, arms...how stretched out is your upper body, what does it feel like on your muscles, how much speed do you retain, can you spin and twirl, etc etc??)

  • Bmh245 wrote: »
    If everyone could set their own strategies, it would immensely diversify HUT and VS. As it is, the AI is always the same and incredibly predictable, making it all too easy to abuse, or, it is the complete cheese fest that it is now.

    Give players the ability to define how they want their AI to play, and you will see alot of cheesers slide down the leaderboards....

    My problem, actually, isn't that the AI is too predictable -- although in certain situations (like the far-side defenseman's refusal to come over and control the center of the ice against a 2v1), it is. My problem is that it's too inconsistent -- you're completely at the mercy of the AI. If it's playing to your strategies, breaking out of the zone, playing smartly on the rush, you're in good shape. If it's not, you're at a serious disadvantage.

    It doesn't have to be this way. As far back as FIFA 99, you could tell individual players where they were supposed to play in the context of the offense as a whole (how far up or back in their zone they would be. We've never had anything like that on defense, so we're just at the mercy of the CPU and whether it has AI players follow the strategy you've given them or not. On offense, created plays gave us much more control over offensive players -- especially on the breakout and the rush, but that's gone, and EA, bizarrely, shows no interest in bringing it back.


    I do find that the AI for the most part is in horrible position...The defense constantly chase the puck to the point allowing two or even three offensive players to the front of the net, They constantly get in my way as a RW trying to cover my assignment, And offensively they are almost entirely ****. I will enter the zone, get to the boardside hash mark and look for a trailer on an odd man rush, if that pass isn't there, I will drop it up the boards to the waiting Defensem- NOPE because he isn't there. What usually results in a turn over 4 on 1 the other way because opposition AI appears to have hyper speed in their transition game. They don't appear to ever follow the forecheck strategy, nor aggressiveness I set out. It's so aggravating

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