I get the need to "punish" users for building lineups that feature low-discipline players by having those players commit more penalties. But I really think you should get rid of the cross-checking penalties, because they're almost always called on perfectly good hits where the defender does nothing obviously wrong, but the game makes him deliver the hit with his stick. There are already quite a few disincentives to check in this game, since hits still sometimes bounce off players, and players are still able to get up and recover the puck after being knocked to the ice (tuning changes notwithstanding). Using an RNG to turn otherwise good hits into penalties only adds to that.
Yep, we have had those discussions and understand that view point. As mentioned before, this isn't something new to licensed sports games and we do hear both sides to it seeing what adds to authenticity and team building and realistic outcomes over the course of a season in franchise mode vs what can be seen as something outside two players head to head skill but at the end of the day, both players are playing within the same sandbox and get all the pros and cons that come with each of the players in their lineup.
It is something we will keep discussing/looking at as we tune and build future mechanics. It certainly hasn't gone unnoticed and that is why I wanted to see how changing the elbowing conditions impacted things -- and in the end, people still complain about elbowing even though it is something within their control to not get, since it is the same as a charge.
Come on, man. These things are huge problems with the game, but they've been problems literally all year long. They're no worse since the update.
Agreed, but I feel like it's way more frequent and glaring now. That's how it has felt since the update. The AI feels like it went from bad to worse. Constantly skating away from you now and turning their backs. It was bad before, but not this bad, it seemed.
It's not just AI, either. Passing feels worse. AI Goalies feel like they are way better, making saves on high scoring chances way more now. So on and so forth, listed it all in my previous posts.
This isn't scientific at all because I am just pulling quick numbers off the leaderboards from home but in Online VS Play, these are the average goals for, goals against and pass percentages for the top 12 players by overall/month/week.
Seems like in general the play lately is tighter defensively than what it is for the year overall but not by that much and not really more than what I would expect as competition gets tighter as players level up and match up against players of equal skill more after knowing the game well.
I get the need to "punish" users for building lineups that feature low-discipline players by having those players commit more penalties. But I really think you should get rid of the cross-checking penalties, because they're almost always called on perfectly good hits where the defender does nothing obviously wrong, but the game makes him deliver the hit with his stick. There are already quite a few disincentives to check in this game, since hits still sometimes bounce off players, and players are still able to get up and recover the puck after being knocked to the ice (tuning changes notwithstanding). Using an RNG to turn otherwise good hits into penalties only adds to that.
Yep, we have had those discussions and understand that view point. As mentioned before, this isn't something new to licensed sports games and we do hear both sides to it seeing what adds to authenticity and team building and realistic outcomes over the course of a season in franchise mode vs what can be seen as something outside two players head to head skill but at the end of the day, both players are playing within the same sandbox and get all the pros and cons that come with each of the players in their lineup.
It is something we will keep discussing/looking at as we tune and build future mechanics. It certainly hasn't gone unnoticed and that is why I wanted to see how changing the elbowing conditions impacted things -- and in the end, people still complain about elbowing even though it is something within their control to not get, since it is the same as a charge.
I really think this is a case where more transparency -- as in a detailed game guide, which I've suggested for years now -- would help. It obviously wouldn't do away with all complaints, but one reason why people feel like they have no control over elbowing is that in the past, they had no control over elbowing (aside from which players they have in their lineup, and in VS they can't even really control that), and they obviously have no way to know that this year, elbowing only gets called in charging situations.
It's not even clear to me that most people understand that having lower-discipline players in their lineup in 1v1 modes will increase the likelihood of taking AI penalties and taking penalties when user-controlled players make hits. That seems like it should be obvious, but it's not written down anywhere, and most people don't play enough games to be able to draw definitive conclusions from their statistical outcomes. Again, a guide that clarified this would be a good thing, and would reduce complaints (or at least excuses).
Having said all that, I still think the addition of cross-checking penalties -- which I know some people complained about the absence of -- was unnecessary, and that the costs of the addition, in terms of more user frustration at control being taken out of their hands and in terms of discouraging hitting, outweigh the benefits.
This isn't scientific at all because I am just pulling quick numbers off the leaderboards from home but in Online VS Play, these are the average goals for, goals against and pass percentages for the top 12 players by overall/month/week.
Seems like in general the play lately is tighter defensively than what it is for the year overall but not by that much and not really more than what I would expect as competition gets tighter as players level up and match up against players of equal skill more after knowing the game well.
AGF - 4.26/4.05/4.1
AGA - 1.9/1.77/1.7
Pass% - 72.5/70.1/70.2
Lmao , I'm sorry you looked at the leaderboards, you mean the people that only play each other ? Pad stat ? Exploit to win, and get DNF wins up the Ying Yang ... Ya that's super accurate...
A chance, meaning random chance ? ... A player like Bergeron is not known for penalties like this, he gets more penalties than my Brad Marchand who gets the same ice time , maybe more he is on my 2nd line defense and gets next to no penalties at 78 discipline I believe... Again I believe it's a random penalty with no logic, which is the point
No, it isn't a random chance. For cross checking, the logic is a chance based off their discipline attribute on each push check they do. You would have to take note of all the push checks that Marchand is doing relative to other players. You also can't just look at the penalties these players are taking, for these penalties, you would just have to see how many charging situations turn into elbows and how many push checks turn into cross checks.
This isn't something I invented. It is how it has always been done in videogames. It is something that I understand what people are asking for and we have had discussions around it. There are definitely different sides to the argument.
In the end, the same backhand deke may go wide when shot with a 4th line Grinder but may go top shelf with Bergeron. This is very similar just with more black and white outcomes than distribution in shot accuracy.
If hut recorded such information instead of just showing gp, goals, assists, plus minus and PIM then I'd be able to give you better details ( even a breakdown of what penalties they are getting )... And just an FYI in 67 games Marchand is at 6 minutes in penalties, couldn't tell you his number take aways , couldn't tell you either players advanced stats . I traded Bergeron off already in anticipation of toty .
Also you are saying it's not a random chance, it's a chance based on variables ... Which in the case I showed made no sense, the puck carrier was going to even walk into Bergeron, and he was well lined up , shoulder to shoulder... Again the logic itself makes no sense . It's not as if Bergeron is a pest , he wasn't retaliating, there was no desperation there , these two players don't hate each other , this player hasn't been slipping by Bergeron all game to make him want to get a malicious hit in now that he has the chance , the puck carrier didn't injure any of my previous players for someone to want to make a malicious hit on him. Also it was not as if Bergeron was fatigued and felt there was no other option . Or that the puck carrier would have gotten a great chance on net had he not caused said penalty.
Maybe we see things wrong, but what I see is what should have been a simple routine hit, or even a poke or stick lift, on a player who had all intentions to skate into him anyways, gets a silly penalty call , a player with 94 discipline , 95 poise plus TT synergy which is 3 more to poise. And if it was someone with 77 discipline I could understand that, even though he has 97 poise and that should be a factor , especially last minute in a tied game ...
Since the last patch the amount of penalties I get for elbowing are ridiculous on Be A Pro.Pretty much every big hit is elbowing now! Watching the replays virtually none of the hits are actually elbowing.
In real life elbowing is hardly ever called anymore!
Nothing in the last patch or tuner would impact elbowing penalties.
Elbowing penalties are triggered off of a hit that would otherwise be a charge and modulated based on your players discipline rating to get variance in penalties that align with the individual player. It will trigger an elbowing animation in those cases. We changed it to a modifier on a charging call so that it was in the Users control to receive one or not rather than modulating any hit based on your discipline like it was in the past.
Also, playing BAP offline, if you prefer different settings, you can adjust each of the penalty sliders individually. Do you use custom sliders/settings currently? I did hear some Users report that to be sure they weren't getting any changes in their sliders that they recreated their custom presets after the tuner to be sure. We haven't confirmed any issues there but could also be something to try.
If hut recorded such information instead of just showing gp, goals, assists, plus minus and PIM then I'd be able to give you better details ( even a breakdown of what penalties they are getting )... And just an FYI in 67 games Marchand is at 6 minutes in penalties, couldn't tell you his number take aways , couldn't tell you either players advanced stats . I traded Bergeron off already in anticipation of toty .
Also you are saying it's not a random chance, it's a chance based on variables ... Which in the case I showed made no sense, the puck carrier was going to even walk into Bergeron, and he was well lined up , shoulder to shoulder... Again the logic itself makes no sense . It's not as if Bergeron is a pest , he wasn't retaliating, there was no desperation there , these two players don't hate each other , this player hasn't been slipping by Bergeron all game to make him want to get a malicious hit in now that he has the chance , the puck carrier didn't injure any of my previous players for someone to want to make a malicious hit on him. Also it was not as if Bergeron was fatigued and felt there was no other option . Or that the puck carrier would have gotten a great chance on net had he not caused said penalty.
Maybe we see things wrong, but what I see is what should have been a simple routine hit, or even a poke or stick lift, on a player who had all intentions to skate into him anyways, gets a silly penalty call , a player with 94 discipline , 95 poise plus TT synergy which is 3 more to poise. And if it was someone with 77 discipline I could understand that, even though he has 97 poise and that should be a factor , especially last minute in a tied game ...
I have already said that I understand your points and that we have talked about this sort of thing far before you ever posted about it. I also understand that if you were designing it or programming it that you would do things differently.
All I have said is how it currently works and why. None of that logic was thinking of a hit that Bergeron may happen to make in your HUT season and I don't disagree at all with your assessment of the type of player he is.
So let's just say you are right, that it could certainly be done differently.
I know how to hit in this game and if I wanted to I would've with speed and power rather than just gliding into him like a **** to do so. He also didn't have the puck and I don't just go hitting players on purpose.
Understood but you also apparently don't dive on defense and were the only person for that to happen without User input as well. Credibility is something you want to hang on to. One day, the wolf may actually show up.
I know how to hit in this game and if I wanted to I would've with speed and power rather than just gliding into him like a **** to do so. He also didn't have the puck and I don't just go hitting players on purpose.
Understood but you also apparently don't dive on defense and were the only person for that to happen without User input as well. Credibility is something you want to hang on to. One day, the wolf may actually show up.
.....
I probably wouldn't even complain and post on this board at all if I was given the ability to play with and against my friends only in 12 player private lobbies/drafts. That's all I want from this game yet EA took that away.
Says the loony who probably posts in this section more than anyone, and that's not including your 30+ alt accounts that you talk to yourself with..
I'm not saying it is impossible that you didn't dive, or accidentally hit the guy in the recent vid, but taking your credibility you've built for yourself here as one of the biggest loonys out there and the fact that no one else has ever come forward claiming these things have happened to them out of their control, it does become nearly impossible to believe you, eh bud?
I know how to hit in this game and if I wanted to I would've with speed and power rather than just gliding into him like a **** to do so. He also didn't have the puck and I don't just go hitting players on purpose.
Understood but you also apparently don't dive on defense and were the only person for that to happen without User input as well. Credibility is something you want to hang on to. One day, the wolf may actually show up.
Fine. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove.Fine. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove.Fine. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove.Fine. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove.Fine. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove.Fine. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove.Fine. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove.Fine. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove. I dove.
Feel better?
This game is filled with inconsistencies and errors.
I've received penalties when my teammates were the ones that caused the infraction and I was nowhere near the incident.
Knowing the inconsistencies I've even often tried to play defence attempting not to stick lift and poke check and have received penalties still.
In NHL 16, I had a troll on my own team and on purpose followed and tried to trip and slash etc him and I received a penalty against my own teammate.
Sticks of puck carriers going through the boards.
Puck going through goalies and including goalies pads floating above the ice while in butterfly.
Your player doing animations that we have no control over a lot of the time.
Offsides and icings being called incorrectly.
Goalie interference calls.
Shooters shooting the puck forehand when it shouldn't be possible because the puck is on the backhand of the blade.
Knocking/plowing over an opposing player to the ice and yet he still gets up and retains the puck.
While on the PK, attempting to rifle the puck out of the zone yet the opposing player always seems to stop it with his glove and sometimes will even jump in the air to catch it.
The list goes on.
I still love this game and get hours of enjoyment but it also frustrates me and a lot of people just as much. I play at least a 1000 games every year and when someone plays it that much they're likely to see all this consistencies.
Up until NHL 16, I rarely complained about this game. I just took and enjoyed it for what it was. At some point though enough is enough and now that I'm being vocal about it, I'm the bad guy?
This series has made some improvements each year but EA has F'ed up a lot more. Go play any online mode and talk to teammates and opponents and you'll hear a lot more complaints than you'll hear compliments. It's so obvious.
I don't just make up **** to be right. I want this series to be the best it can be. It has tons of potential that simply isn't being fulfilled.
I probably wouldn't even complain and post on this board at all if I was given the ability to play with and against my friends only in 12 player private lobbies/drafts. That's all I want from this game yet EA took that away.
You do realize that throwing a massive temper tantrum had the effect of eroding your credibility further right? The fact that you were the one who posted that video and surrounded it with hyperbolic language and then angrily challenged everyone who pointed out the obvious to you is the reason that you keep hearing about it. Now, you have done the message board equivalent of punching a hole in the wall out of anger and even made the "eh bud" guy sound reasonable (I cannot forgive that). I don't see what you hope to accomplish. Care to enlighten us on that? Because right now it's seems like you just want to burn the board down.
Replies
Yep, we have had those discussions and understand that view point. As mentioned before, this isn't something new to licensed sports games and we do hear both sides to it seeing what adds to authenticity and team building and realistic outcomes over the course of a season in franchise mode vs what can be seen as something outside two players head to head skill but at the end of the day, both players are playing within the same sandbox and get all the pros and cons that come with each of the players in their lineup.
It is something we will keep discussing/looking at as we tune and build future mechanics. It certainly hasn't gone unnoticed and that is why I wanted to see how changing the elbowing conditions impacted things -- and in the end, people still complain about elbowing even though it is something within their control to not get, since it is the same as a charge.
Agreed, but I feel like it's way more frequent and glaring now. That's how it has felt since the update. The AI feels like it went from bad to worse. Constantly skating away from you now and turning their backs. It was bad before, but not this bad, it seemed.
It's not just AI, either. Passing feels worse. AI Goalies feel like they are way better, making saves on high scoring chances way more now. So on and so forth, listed it all in my previous posts.
Seems like in general the play lately is tighter defensively than what it is for the year overall but not by that much and not really more than what I would expect as competition gets tighter as players level up and match up against players of equal skill more after knowing the game well.
AGF - 4.26/4.05/4.1
AGA - 1.9/1.77/1.7
Pass% - 72.5/70.1/70.2
I really think this is a case where more transparency -- as in a detailed game guide, which I've suggested for years now -- would help. It obviously wouldn't do away with all complaints, but one reason why people feel like they have no control over elbowing is that in the past, they had no control over elbowing (aside from which players they have in their lineup, and in VS they can't even really control that), and they obviously have no way to know that this year, elbowing only gets called in charging situations.
It's not even clear to me that most people understand that having lower-discipline players in their lineup in 1v1 modes will increase the likelihood of taking AI penalties and taking penalties when user-controlled players make hits. That seems like it should be obvious, but it's not written down anywhere, and most people don't play enough games to be able to draw definitive conclusions from their statistical outcomes. Again, a guide that clarified this would be a good thing, and would reduce complaints (or at least excuses).
Having said all that, I still think the addition of cross-checking penalties -- which I know some people complained about the absence of -- was unnecessary, and that the costs of the addition, in terms of more user frustration at control being taken out of their hands and in terms of discouraging hitting, outweigh the benefits.
Lmao , I'm sorry you looked at the leaderboards, you mean the people that only play each other ? Pad stat ? Exploit to win, and get DNF wins up the Ying Yang ... Ya that's super accurate...
If hut recorded such information instead of just showing gp, goals, assists, plus minus and PIM then I'd be able to give you better details ( even a breakdown of what penalties they are getting )... And just an FYI in 67 games Marchand is at 6 minutes in penalties, couldn't tell you his number take aways , couldn't tell you either players advanced stats . I traded Bergeron off already in anticipation of toty .
Also you are saying it's not a random chance, it's a chance based on variables ... Which in the case I showed made no sense, the puck carrier was going to even walk into Bergeron, and he was well lined up , shoulder to shoulder... Again the logic itself makes no sense . It's not as if Bergeron is a pest , he wasn't retaliating, there was no desperation there , these two players don't hate each other , this player hasn't been slipping by Bergeron all game to make him want to get a malicious hit in now that he has the chance , the puck carrier didn't injure any of my previous players for someone to want to make a malicious hit on him. Also it was not as if Bergeron was fatigued and felt there was no other option . Or that the puck carrier would have gotten a great chance on net had he not caused said penalty.
Maybe we see things wrong, but what I see is what should have been a simple routine hit, or even a poke or stick lift, on a player who had all intentions to skate into him anyways, gets a silly penalty call , a player with 94 discipline , 95 poise plus TT synergy which is 3 more to poise. And if it was someone with 77 discipline I could understand that, even though he has 97 poise and that should be a factor , especially last minute in a tied game ...
And what happened to elbowing and charging being the same penalty, in this video it clearly is not... If anything it's an interference.
So elbowing is also a variation of interference?
Based on your other posts, I just assume you are bored and like chatting on these boards so actually know what is happening in this clip.
However, for the sake of the others that are trying to figure things out, I guess I need to respond.
The penalty you got here wasn't elbowing, it would have been interference.
I have already said that I understand your points and that we have talked about this sort of thing far before you ever posted about it. I also understand that if you were designing it or programming it that you would do things differently.
All I have said is how it currently works and why. None of that logic was thinking of a hit that Bergeron may happen to make in your HUT season and I don't disagree at all with your assessment of the type of player he is.
So let's just say you are right, that it could certainly be done differently.
If you didn't try to hit him, it wouldn't have been called in this case. You clearly step up to hit him but again I know you know this.
Between this clip and the dive, you really get the conspiracies going for other members of this board.
Understood but you also apparently don't dive on defense and were the only person for that to happen without User input as well. Credibility is something you want to hang on to. One day, the wolf may actually show up.
I'm not saying it is impossible that you didn't dive, or accidentally hit the guy in the recent vid, but taking your credibility you've built for yourself here as one of the biggest loonys out there and the fact that no one else has ever come forward claiming these things have happened to them out of their control, it does become nearly impossible to believe you, eh bud?
You do realize that throwing a massive temper tantrum had the effect of eroding your credibility further right? The fact that you were the one who posted that video and surrounded it with hyperbolic language and then angrily challenged everyone who pointed out the obvious to you is the reason that you keep hearing about it. Now, you have done the message board equivalent of punching a hole in the wall out of anger and even made the "eh bud" guy sound reasonable (I cannot forgive that). I don't see what you hope to accomplish. Care to enlighten us on that? Because right now it's seems like you just want to burn the board down.