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A new survey from EA....

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  • VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    I believe LEFT stick hitting is still present in this game, it's just been toned down from what it used to be.

    I know the AI can go around destroying folks like nobody's business and never get a penalty for it, but if you gently rub somebody with the right stick you're sitting for two. Such B.5.
  • A better and more simple solution would be if 2K games started making NHL2K I’d buy that religiously from now on and never buy EA NHL again.
  • A better and more simple solution would be if 2K games started making NHL2K I’d buy that religiously from now on and never buy EA NHL again.

    Even if it had just as many or more issues?
  • KidShowtime1867
    1721 posts Member
    edited December 2017
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    I believe LEFT stick hitting is still present in this game, it's just been toned down from what it used to be.

    You do know how physics and momentum work, right?

    If you are travelling at a high rate of speed and run into an opposing player, things happen.

    This isn't "Left Stick hitting".

    Left Stick Hitting can be turned off in the settings, bucko.
  • VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    I believe LEFT stick hitting is still present in this game, it's just been toned down from what it used to be.

    You do know how physics and momentum work, right?

    If you are travelling at a high rate of speed and run into an opposing player, things happen.

    This isn't "Left Stick hitting".

    Left Stick Hitting can be turned off in the settings, bucko.

    So anytime you skate into someone something happens based on the physics of that collision? Or does it have to be enough force to trigger the physics engine over the animation engine?

    In legacy if you are laying on the ice and someone skates over you they trip rightfully so. If you are both standing up right and skate into each other without using a hit or left stick hitting sometimes it triggers the physics and sometimes you just get one of the few stumble animations.

    To me it should always use the physics and if it results in a stumble that can be recovered from then fine but it should be all physics based with less in the way of locked animations.
  • VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    I believe LEFT stick hitting is still present in this game, it's just been toned down from what it used to be.

    You do know how physics and momentum work, right?

    If you are travelling at a high rate of speed and run into an opposing player, things happen.

    This isn't "Left Stick hitting".

    Left Stick Hitting can be turned off in the settings, bucko.

    So anytime you skate into someone something happens based on the physics of that collision? Or does it have to be enough force to trigger the physics engine over the animation engine?

    In legacy if you are laying on the ice and someone skates over you they trip rightfully so. If you are both standing up right and skate into each other without using a hit or left stick hitting sometimes it triggers the physics and sometimes you just get one of the few stumble animations.

    To me it should always use the physics and if it results in a stumble that can be recovered from then fine but it should be all physics based with less in the way of locked animations.

    Like I've been saying around here forever...

    Many people playing this game fail to understand the basic concept that if you are triggering an animation, don't expect the game to favor you when it comes to physics based interactions - and this is by design.

    The game penalizes those who are throwing too many inputs at their player. If you're constantly skating at a high rate of speed, poking at every loose puck in sight, trying to hit everything that moves and trying to make passes while making large cuts at full speed... etc - you're not going to have fun.

    The above scenario plays out in so many games - just to hear the children cry about how the game is so awful.

    Then.. with my friends who understand the concept of being patient with your skating and minimizing the inputs you throw at your characters, we have a blast. We aren't the best team on the planet, nor are we really anything special to write home about. But holy man do we have fun and rarely do we get in to this mood where the game is at fault for everything in our lives.

    Again - the physics engine is always at work. I'm always just skating my player right in to another player and I rarely use the Right Stick to lay a body check - unless i've lined it up perfectly.

    This way, if I do happen to miss running in to an opposing player, I still have open animation frames to properly adjust my position. Whereas if I'm spamming pokecheck, trying to lay a hit with RS (while I'm out of range) or doing something else to trigger an animation and thus impeding my movement, my player seems 'sluggish' in where I'm trying to move him.

    This concept is lost on many players. These same players just scream in to their mics, "EA IS ALWAYS GIVING BOUNCES TO THE OTHER TEAM"

    Well.. not to fast champ.

    Chances are, you're not being patient in the way you execute the inputs you've given your player. You're overwhelming the character with information, so to speak, and you lose the physics advantage.

    I believe this is by design. This way, the game rewards those who are smart and efficient with their control of the player, where a player who's in a rush or just not good at understanding the concept of how to control is at disadvantage.

  • KidShowtime1867
    1721 posts Member
    edited December 2017
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    I believe LEFT stick hitting is still present in this game, it's just been toned down from what it used to be.

    You do know how physics and momentum work, right?

    If you are travelling at a high rate of speed and run into an opposing player, things happen.

    This isn't "Left Stick hitting".

    Left Stick Hitting can be turned off in the settings, bucko.

    I don't remember the part where I was complaining or saying it's a problem...

    [Content removed by @EA_Roger ]

    You need to loosen up... Pal.

    So you don't know how physics and momentum work.

    And thanks for the tip, champ.

    Don't you have some goalie footage to over-analyze?
    Post edited by EA_Roger on
  • I completely understand that but I'm more interested in the reaction of the collision when you don't use the hit stick. I assume the puck is knocked loose, but does the player fall reliably if you have solid contact without a "hit"?

    In legacy you can tell when the game decides to use the canned animations vs the physics engine.

    What they need to do is something like what warhorse is doing with kingdom come: deliverance. They were going to mo cap animations for every aspect of the sword combat. They realized that would be an impossible amount of work. Instead they developed a procedural animation generator to dynamically create an animation to suit the physics of what is happening. For example if you slash a shoulder with plate armor on it the sword will deflect off and your character will have a dynamic reaction, compared to the reaction of hitting a shoulder with chain mail.

    In nhl that would include things like using your hands and stick to brace for a fall and get back on your skates quicker. Or if you get hit at lower speeds you don't just see either a weird out of place stumble animation or no animation at all and the player initiating the contact pushes the other one away.

    Any reactions should be the physics engine calculating a reaction and there should be no canned animations. Dynamic animations are the current tech and lots of games are beginning to use them and you'd think sports games would be the first because this is one of the best ways I've seen in any game across a few genres from driving Sims to medieval combat and fps modern combat games to accurately simulate the real world.
  • I completely understand that but I'm more interested in the reaction of the collision when you don't use the hit stick. I assume the puck is knocked loose, but does the player fall reliably if you have solid contact without a "hit"?


    When I use LS (with LS hitting turned off) what typically happens is a 'bumping in to' of another player. I find stick collisions are prominently displayed when this happens, and body positioning plays a key role in who obtains the puck when it's inevitably knocked loose.
    In legacy you can tell when the game decides to use the canned animations vs the physics engine.

    Yea, exactly. The key is to limit the instances where you trigger canned animations, and try to spend most of your time working on the positioning of your body. Regardless of what some skeptics around here will tell you, controlling your player (properly) with the left stick is quite easy to do, once you've become accustomed to how the game wants you to control your player versus how you think you should be able to control your player.

    An argument could be made that EA should make a system far more intuitive, but I would argue that EA is trying to mimic what it's like to skate on ice. This is no easy feat and I feel the game correctly conveys that 'feeling'. However, it's that 'feeling' (of trying to navigate on an ice surface with attribute variables also playing a role) that makes users feel 'out of control' of their own player. Rather than take the time to learn to be a little more delicate on the left stick, it's easier to say the game sucks and EA wants you dead.


    What they need to do is something like what warhorse is doing with kingdom come: deliverance. They were going to mo cap animations for every aspect of the sword combat. They realized that would be an impossible amount of work. Instead they developed a procedural animation generator to dynamically create an animation to suit the physics of what is happening. For example if you slash a shoulder with plate armor on it the sword will deflect off and your character will have a dynamic reaction, compared to the reaction of hitting a shoulder with chain mail.

    This happens in NHL already. Animations are blended based on situational keyframes. The engine continues to evolve after every release, but you can tell the NHL guys worked a lot on blending animations for NHL 18. The skill sick alone is a fantastic way to show you how blending animations has had a lot of work done to it.
    In nhl that would include things like using your hands and stick to brace for a fall and get back on your skates quicker. Or if you get hit at lower speeds you don't just see either a weird out of place stumble animation or no animation at all and the player initiating the contact pushes the other one away.

    Yea, those situational animations would make the game look nicer.. but they would result in 1-2 seconds of no control - thus taking the player 'out' of the moment. I get what EA is doing with their current engine, and despite some of the longer canned animations still present, I feel there's been some good progress made in balancing the Look with the Feel of the game. Still some work to do, but they're on the right path.

    Any reactions should be the physics engine calculating a reaction and there should be no canned animations. Dynamic animations are the current tech and lots of games are beginning to use them and you'd think sports games would be the first because this is one of the best ways I've seen in any game across a few genres from driving Sims to medieval combat and fps modern combat games to accurately simulate the real world.

    'Dynamic Animations' is just a fancy way of saying a game has a lot of distinct 'blend' points. Every animation you see in a game is programmed or animated in some way shape or form. How a game presents these animations to you combined with how you're in control of said animations is what lends itself to the overall 'feeling' of the game.

    Some games handle blending animations better than NHL, for sure. However, hockey is such a distinct sport with many nuances that are known intimately by it's fans. You wouldn't be so familiar with the nuances of sword combat (unless you're a huge historian) so you're lest apt to be critical of how it's executed. Hockey is a different world.

  • Bmh245
    905 posts Member
    edited December 2017
    I would argue that EA is trying to mimic what it's like to skate on ice. This is no easy feat and I feel the game correctly conveys that 'feeling'.

    Yeah, skating is "no easy feat" for top-notch NHL players. Right.


  • KidShowtime1867
    1721 posts Member
    edited December 2017
    Bmh245 wrote: »
    I would argue that EA is trying to mimic what it's like to skate on ice. This is no easy feat and I feel the game correctly conveys that 'feeling'.

    Yeah, skating is "no easy feat" for top-notch NHL players. Right.


    Do you want to be in control of the players or do you want the game just to do everything for you?

    By your logic, the skating element of NHL 18 shouldn't even be the responsibility of the person controlling the player.

    So - should we remove the ability to control skating altogether because "NHL players know how to skate"?

    Next thing is - we shouldn't have to aim or even press the shoot button because, "NHL players know how to shoot".

  • @KidShowtime1867 to your last point that's not true at all. Beamng.drive literally has no "animations" every action is procedurally generated by the engine, which is why it is a very cpu heavy game. Regarding the same in Kingdom Come, I watched a video from the devs where they show the animations they have in the game and also how the game generates its own animations to properly blend and complete a sequence. These aren't prerecorded and waiting to be chosen they are being generated live by the engine of the game.

    In this way they are unique and far more fluid. Look at vehicle collisions in most games, even gta which has some level of soft body physics around the cars. The damage seen is always the same. The front always bends in the same places the sides dent in the same places, etc. In beam its always different because it's truly dynamic and not just choosing from a set of animations.

    This is admittedly a very cpu heavy process but it is the current gen tech and should exist in sports titles and be under continuous development within them as well.

    A truly live physics engine in nhl would mean 100% realistic skating. Because everything from the body contact to the skates on the ice would be simulated by the engine.

    The only question left is, would this be fun? I think it would be but ea likely wouldn't agree.
  • Bmh245 wrote: »
    I would argue that EA is trying to mimic what it's like to skate on ice. This is no easy feat and I feel the game correctly conveys that 'feeling'.

    Yeah, skating is "no easy feat" for top-notch NHL players. Right.


    Do you want to be in control of the players or do you want the game just to do everything for you?

    By your logic, the skating element of NHL 18 shouldn't even be the responsibility of the person controlling the player.

    So - should we remove the ability to control skating altogether because "NHL players know how to skate"?

    Next thing is - we shouldn't have to aim or even press the shoot button because, "NHL players know how to shoot".

    There is some truth in what you say. BUT...

    Let's face it. TPS is really horribly at slow speeds, or from a standstill. Takes far too long to do a 180 from a standstill, and, how many times have you wanted to turn 90 degrees, but end up doing a 270 instead?

    For me, the game/series is really heading in the wrong direction. With every release it seems the gap is wider between me and NHL. So be it, there are other ways to have fun. As for you, you seem very happy with it. Kudos to you, but NBA2K doesn't make running any harder than it needs to be, so I don't know why all of a sudden we need to know how to skate, with a controller no less. Skating should not be the main focus of the series. We aren't buying Figure Skating 18 here. When playing offline you even see the AI struggle at times with the skating engine. Is the CPU trying to make too many decisions and running out of animation frames? I doubt it....
  • Yea, exactly. The key is to limit the instances where you trigger canned animations, and try to spend most of your time working on the positioning of your body. Regardless of what some skeptics around here will tell you, controlling your player (properly) with the left stick is quite easy to do, once you've become accustomed to how the game wants you to control your player versus how you think you should be able to control your player.

    An argument could be made that EA should make a system far more intuitive, but I would argue that EA is trying to mimic what it's like to skate on ice. This is no easy feat and I feel the game correctly conveys that 'feeling'. However, it's that 'feeling' (of trying to navigate on an ice surface with attribute variables also playing a role) that makes users feel 'out of control' of their own player. Rather than take the time to learn to be a little more delicate on the left stick, it's easier to say the game sucks and EA wants you dead.

    Here's the problem I have with that statement though. You talk about how these canned animations are something you need to avoid in the game, yet you talk about people who wish there weren't canned animations in the game to begin with as if they have no idea what they're doing and want to blame the game for everything instead of having a rational conversation. I know how to play, and even now I'm regularly in the top 100 for competitive seasons in HUT. There's no debating whether or not I've learned how to skate well in the game, and yet here I am talking about how much I dislike it.

    I don't understand how you can agree that the animations in the game are bad, but asking for a skating engine without these animations is equal to saying "the game sucks and EA wants you dead."

    Finally, I can't remember the last time I got stuck making a turn while skating in real life that I just had to keep going until it was done rather than breaking out of it and going in a different direction. Doesn't seem much like a "feeling" I've ever had in real life, but it's certainly there in NHL for some reason. Maybe that's why I never made it to the big leagues...
  • CupCrazyMania
    16 posts Member
    edited December 2017
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    I believe LEFT stick hitting is still present in this game, it's just been toned down from what it used to be.


    Left Stick Hitting can be turned off in the settings, bucko.


    How and where can you turn off left stick hitting in NHL18? *
  • MetalMilitia623
    1464 posts Member
    edited December 2017
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    I believe LEFT stick hitting is still present in this game, it's just been toned down from what it used to be.


    Left Stick Hitting can be turned off in the settings, bucko.


    How and where can you turn off left stick hitting in NHL18 ?

    It should be in the controls options scree just scroll down. Unless the menus are drastically different from last gen.
    Post edited by EA_Roger on
  • The thing about the skating engine is that, IMO, the game tries too much to take control of your inputs. I understand that it is probably done to "assist" the user, but not all users need that level of assistance.

    The other issue is that for all the animations they use to convey the "realism" of skating, it's just not enough to make it fluid and/or seamless.

    Add to that some obvious legacy issues like making skaters pivot on an axel like a table-top hockey figurine and you're getting to the root of the problem with the TPS.

    I mean, I'm sure there are some tweaks that could be made to make it feel better, like upping the ice friction some. But ultimately I think TPS needs a major overhaul in how it functions. I don't think it should be removed, just evolved to something better.
  • VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    I believe LEFT stick hitting is still present in this game, it's just been toned down from what it used to be.


    Left Stick Hitting can be turned off in the settings, bucko.


    How and where can you turn off left stick hitting in NHL18? *
    Left stick hitting hasn’t been in the game since NHL 16
  • Bmh245
    905 posts Member
    edited December 2017
    Bmh245 wrote: »
    I would argue that EA is trying to mimic what it's like to skate on ice. This is no easy feat and I feel the game correctly conveys that 'feeling'.

    Yeah, skating is "no easy feat" for top-notch NHL players. Right.


    Do you want to be in control of the players or do you want the game just to do everything for you?

    I don't want the game to do everything for me. I want the game to do what I tell it to do. And when I'm controlling a player like Karlsson, I want it to do what I tell it to do with the same responsiveness, speed, and ease with which Karlsson skates IRL.

    I don't want to tell my player to spin to the right, and have the game send him to the left instead. I don’t want to tell my player to skate forward, and have him rock backward first before he actually gets going. I don't want him to spin when I'm just telling him to go up and to the left. But all of these things happen regularly in this game.

    And it isn't just user-controlled players, either. I don't want AI players to regularly turn their back on the play because they can't figure out how to turn correctly. I don't want them to try to turn and end up rocking back and forth instead. But these things happen multiple times a game.

    Watch that clip. Karlsson is moving at an incredible pace, making split-second adjustments at speed. When we're controlling players like Karlsson in this game, that's exactly how we should be able to skate - with the puck and without. We shouldn't have to "move slower" in order to get players to do what we're telling them to do.
    Post edited by Bmh245 on
  • Workin_OT wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    I believe LEFT stick hitting is still present in this game, it's just been toned down from what it used to be.


    Left Stick Hitting can be turned off in the settings, bucko.

    How and where can you turn off left stick hitting in NHL18? *
    Left stick hitting hasn’t been in the game since NHL 16

    Auto-hitting is in the game, though - that's probably what they're thinking about. And it can be turned off in the settings menu.

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