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A new survey from EA....

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  • Sinbin
    1331 posts Member
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    Am I even surprised by your response? LOL!

    It's like you don't even play the same game everyone else is: NHL 18 Special Rainbow Magic Sinbin Edition. Guaranteed to have 99.98% lack of NHL 18 regular edition.

    Nah. I just don't see the same stuff as often as you do. That and I probably don't multiply it artificially. I also don't let confirmation bias get in the way. I also probably play differently than you do so I won't see the exact same things. For example, if you rely on your AI to play for you then you'll see different AI behavior than I do. I also know that bugs are a part of every game so I have a certain amount of leniency when it comes to issues that aren't game-breaking.
  • VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    Am I even surprised by your response? LOL!

    It's like you don't even play the same game everyone else is: NHL 18 Special Rainbow Magic Sinbin Edition. Guaranteed to have 99.98% lack of NHL 18 regular edition.

    haaa best comment ever! thanx! i agreeee ;-)))))))
  • I think it's telling when users such as @Sgt_Kelso and @VeNOM2099 simply dismiss the opinions of users who actually have positive things to say, and who offer very good counter-arguments to their claims that everything that goes wrong in their games is the fault of EA's "terrible programming".

    The reason why I think it's telling is because often times, the rebuttal from these users is typically some kind of far reaching hyperbole that could only ever be proven by an engineer from EA coming in here to refute them. It's an easy platform to stand on when those responsible for building the engine you claim is so riddled with issues won't fire back at you because, frankly, your claims are (for the most part) based off of an inability to even acknowledge that you're playing the game how you want to play it rather than how it's designed to be played.

    There's no discourse with those who claim EA is just in this for HUT money and that they "don't know hockey". It's just, "this game sucks, they can't program or design a game to save their life" and then that's it. No discussion. The people who despise this game draw hard lines in the sand when it comes to how they perceive the game and the way it's interactions have been designed.

    It's very troubling to me that those who have such hardened opinions on the negative state of this game just flat out refuse to hear any kind of reason or logic. If they manage to take the time to read out a well thought out description of how things aren't so bad and maybe it's just a change of perception - they instantly reply with "you're blind" or "You're just an EA shill". My personal favourite, "You're being paid to say these issues don't exist."

    Many of the people who hate this game always tend to argue, "Just look at the forums and social media.. it's filled with so many people that hate this game"

    I don't disagree. However, the assertion that these outcries on social media are some kind of indication that the series is a negative experience for all 400-500K buyers of this title is absolutely absurd.

    Here's a bit of a news flash for the negative nancy's around here: People enjoy this game. Some people enjoy this game a lot. It's pretty malevolent to try and claim the entire fan base of this franchise is upset.

    I do believe that the competitive subsection of consumers - those who play this game competitively, tend to perceive inconsistencies in this game as some kind of inefficiency in the game development department. They don't seem to appreciate how EA SPORTS has been able to accurately portray the random nature of the sport of hockey. They see a puck bounce over a stick, and instead of thinking "Oh, that's kind of neat how a puck bounce can effect a game - just like in real life" - the pessimistic culture of hating this game thinks "EA SPORTS doesn't know how to make a game (despite 20+ years of success) and they suck. Devs are garbage. This game is garbage. I hate it so much"

    Then, Ben - god bless his soul - attempts to come to the forums in an attempt to try and explain the development side of things. He gave so much detail surrounding so many aspects of this game. At the time, I was in the Game Changers group - and picking his brain was awesome.

    It was so damn heartbreaking to see him come in here and have people just tear apart his explanations and continue to troll and just act like children.

    So you had a company make an effort in building that level of communication, but the "know-it-all's" around here just continued in their entitled ways, speaking in hyperbolic statements attempting to drum up some confirmation bias.

    Then you have guys like me & @Sinbin come in here and tell you exactly what you don't want to hear: You're (more than likely) struggling with how EA wants you to play the game, but you just don't want to admit it. You have a self image of being this amazing player at 'chel, so when you get beat (like you did on the weekend VeNOM :D ) the list of excuses never seem to have any admission of mistakes. It's always EA's fault you lost. It's always EA's fault you didn't pick up the loose puck. It's always EA's fault that you let in that goal even though, in your opinion, you were in the perfect positioning and there was absolutely 100% no way a puck could penetrate your fortress.

    Then, you go online and circle jerk with all of the other EA haters. You dumb dumbs spend countless hours playing and complaining about the game you hate with every fiber of your being.

    Sit and really think about that for a second. Let it sink in how pathetic you look to the world. You're playing a videogame for hours, while complaining about it for hours, and then you go online and circle jerk to the confirmation bias for hours.

    Meanwhile, there's a whole bunch of us having a great time with NHL 18. We enjoy the competitive aspect, don't put winning on a pedestal - and spend more time immersing ourselves in the recreation of our favorite sport. We enjoy that we have consoles capable of surrounding us visually and through sound - and it projects us in these virtual hockey rinks where we take control of a team or position on the ice, and we do what the game allows us to do in order to recreate the speed, ebb and flow of hockey.

    Tl;DR: Chill out everyone. This game is fun. It has it's issues, sure - but a lot of you take the game and yourselves far too seriously.






  • Sgt_Kelso
    1325 posts Member
    edited December 2017
    Didn't read that wall of text (Kory is it you?), but if you don't see how this Sinbin is like a broken record, I can't help you.

    With these guys, It's always 'I dont' have any issues' and 'are you sure it's not your modem', 'do you have have video proof' or whatever... like it was our job to prove you EA yes-men that the issue really exists. The issues are many and plain to see. If you really don't see them, I have to question your reason.
  • KidShowtime1867
    1721 posts Member
    edited December 2017
    Sgt_Kelso wrote: »
    Didn't read that wall of text (Kory is it you?), but if you don't see how this Sinbin is like a broken record, I can't help you.

    Just proves my point:
    There's no discourse with those who claim EA is just in this for HUT money and that they "don't know hockey". It's just, "this game sucks, they can't program or design a game to save their life" and then that's it. No discussion. The people who despise this game draw hard lines in the sand when it comes to how they perceive the game and the way it's interactions have been designed.
    It's very troubling to me that those who have such hardened opinions on the negative state of this game just flat out refuse to hear any kind of reason or logic. If they manage to take the time to read out a well thought out description of how things aren't so bad and maybe it's just a change of perception - they instantly reply with "you're blind" or "You're just an EA shill". My personal favourite, "You're being paid to say these issues don't exist."

    And this..
    With these guys, It's always 'I dont' have any issues' and 'are you sure it's not your modem', 'do you have have video proof' or whatever... like it was our job to prove you EA yes-men that the issue really exists. The issues are many and plain to see. If you really don't see them, I have to question your reason.

    You're inability to execute some critical thinking disrupts your point.

    You've taken a hard stance: If you don't see these issues, I question your reason.

    You're not even open to the discussion. You're closing up shop. "I'm right, you're wrong"

    You're so attached to the ideology that EA is out to kill you and ruin your virtual hockey experience that there's literally no way to have a reasonable and open discussion with you. You're always going to rely on the 'EA does this on purpose' or 'EA sucks' and you'll never listen to reason as to why something works the way it does.

  • Sgt_Kelso wrote: »
    Didn't read that wall of text (Kory is it you?), but if you don't see how this Sinbin is like a broken record, I can't help you.

    With these guys, It's always 'I dont' have any issues' and 'are you sure it's not your modem', 'do you have have video proof' or whatever... like it was our job to prove you EA yes-men that the issue really exists. The issues are many and plain to see. If you really don't see them, I have to question your reason.

    Couple things. One he used tons of paragraphs there so it's actually very readable compared to some actual walls of text I've seen. Second he's right, a change in perspective is so helpful not just when looking at this game but in any game or anything in your life.

    The example I like to use when talking to people about this is: I was backing into my driveway and the garbage cans were in the way and I managed to squeeze around them and such. I was telling someone about what a pain it was having to go around them. They said don't think of it as a pain, think of it as an exercise in vehicle control.

    You can use that kind of perspective to make almost any situation into a learning experience over a stressful/frustrating one.
  • @KidShowtime1867 It's possible to have fun with the game and still see problems and room for improvement. It's possible to have an adult conversation about these problems with people who may not agree with each other about the severity or cause of them.

    If the forums aren't "safe" for the developers to come here and communicate with us there's a simple solution to that. EA could always put the effort and resources necessary into moderating the forums. They're really good at paying lip-service to moderation every year at launch but not so good at following through. It's a real shame too because there are lots of people here that would love to have a calm, reasoned discussion with the developers but they tend to be drowned out.

    And there are many legitimate problems that go beyond "not playing the game like the devs intended". Pucks going through goalies, time rewinding, etc. My personal biggest gripe is trying to determine what exactly triggers a tripping penalty. It's seems so random that at this point I'd rather they just take the penalty out of the game if they're not going to have it called consistently. Especially in EASHL 3s where a random penalty can swing the game so severely.


  • VeNOM2099
    3178 posts Member
    edited December 2017
    Sinbin wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    Am I even surprised by your response? LOL!

    It's like you don't even play the same game everyone else is: NHL 18 Special Rainbow Magic Sinbin Edition. Guaranteed to have 99.98% lack of NHL 18 regular edition.

    Nah. I just don't see the same stuff as often as you do. That and I probably don't multiply it artificially. I also don't let confirmation bias get in the way. I also probably play differently than you do so I won't see the exact same things. For example, if you rely on your AI to play for you then you'll see different AI behavior than I do. I also know that bugs are a part of every game so I have a certain amount of leniency when it comes to issues that aren't game-breaking.

    Zhyc9mS.gif

    Confirmation bias... Won that game, BTW. But it's obvious I'm angry because I lost. Believe me when I say, I'd LOVE to be able to just play this game and NOT see the things that I see. But nearly every game, I see stuff like that, and I'm not even joking.

    I still play, because there IS some good in the game. It's just disheartening too see that there's also too many things wrong (STILL wrong) with it after all these years without being addressed. I get that it's not easy to program a game like NHL 18, but that's not an excuse to repeatedly leave the game in this state year after year. It just looks bad when you notice a bug or a flaw or an exploit that you've seen 3-4 years ago and it's STILL not fixed...

    @KidShowtime1867 (AKA KroyDub).

    TL:DR

    But I bet it went something like this: "Game is flawless. Only people that are bad and lose all the time comlpain. I'm the best, I win all the time so I don't complain". We've heard it all before... It wasn't true (or funny) the first thousand times you said it. Won't be true in the future.
    Sgt_Kelso wrote: »
    Didn't read that wall of text (Kory is it you?), but if you don't see how this Sinbin is like a broken record, I can't help you.

    With these guys, It's always 'I dont' have any issues' and 'are you sure it's not your modem', 'do you have have video proof' or whatever... like it was our job to prove you EA yes-men that the issue really exists. The issues are many and plain to see. If you really don't see them, I have to question your reason.

    Couple things. One he used tons of paragraphs there so it's actually very readable compared to some actual walls of text I've seen. Second he's right, a change in perspective is so helpful not just when looking at this game but in any game or anything in your life.

    The example I like to use when talking to people about this is: I was backing into my driveway and the garbage cans were in the way and I managed to squeeze around them and such. I was telling someone about what a pain it was having to go around them. They said don't think of it as a pain, think of it as an exercise in vehicle control.

    You can use that kind of perspective to make almost any situation into a learning experience over a stressful/frustrating one.

    There's "perspective" and then there's "resignation". I think it's more the latter you're talking about which is what a lot of people have issues with. Sure, we could all just resign ourselves to the state of the game and be completely oblivious (like Sinbin, Kory and a handful of other trolls). But then how are we being fans of the game if we just resign and don't ask for things to be improved?

    You of all people shouldn't' be talking about "resigning" ourselves to the reality of this game... Especially considering you've been clamoring non-stop for NHL to come to PC when it likely NEVER will. How 'bout you resign yourself to the fact that you NEED to get a console to play NHL 18 and future NHL games.

    How's THAT for perspective?
  • This has gotten away from the survey discussion (shocking to absolutely nobody) and it turned into an interesting discussion. One of which I think could benefit the community because there has been an issue with trolling/disrespecting these games for years even back in the time frame from when I used to moderate these forums back before I stopped in January 2010.

    The common theme here is that users will claim that the game hasn't improved in a decade plus since NHL 07 when the skill stick was introduced, and to me that is laughable because if you go back and play NHL 07 you will see that the game is leaps and bounds better, there is no denying that. Perhaps there are parts that are better in NHL 07, maybe the skating for example if those people who dislike skating are to be believed. Overall though, NHL 18 is a much improved game in many many ways and if you try to say otherwise you risk losing credibility.

    I don't come here often anymore because life gets in the way, but it is always the same type of post, always a complaint about something filled with either illiteracy or profanity, often both. These type of posts do not help the game move forward. I like that members of this community have ideas, that in essence is what makes a community a great resource.

    But to come on here and rip the developers saying they should lose their jobs is borderline insanity. These guys are human, they have families that they have to go home to and care for. These guys are a lot like you and I at the end of the day. So to wish them to lose their jobs is in poor taste. You guys have had several chances to communicate with the development team and most of the regulars have been very respectful to these guys when they are on here, but some others have been absolutely horrible to these guys, I can not blame them for not coming on here anymore with the comments that they had to deal with then and some of the malicious comments I see on here and on social media now.

    I don't want this to run on too long so I will say this, this community needs more attention from the developers, I've seen some great ideas here. But you guys also need to learn how to be respectful when they are and aren't around.

    A constructive community can be great, it has helped propel Madden into the game it is now, it is time for NHL to get back on track too, and that starts with constructive criticism, not insults towards the mods or devs.
  • VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    Sinbin wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    Am I even surprised by your response? LOL!

    It's like you don't even play the same game everyone else is: NHL 18 Special Rainbow Magic Sinbin Edition. Guaranteed to have 99.98% lack of NHL 18 regular edition.

    Nah. I just don't see the same stuff as often as you do. That and I probably don't multiply it artificially. I also don't let confirmation bias get in the way. I also probably play differently than you do so I won't see the exact same things. For example, if you rely on your AI to play for you then you'll see different AI behavior than I do. I also know that bugs are a part of every game so I have a certain amount of leniency when it comes to issues that aren't game-breaking.

    Zhyc9mS.gif

    Confirmation bias... Won that game, BTW. But it's obvious I'm angry because I lost. Believe me when I say, I'd LOVE to be able to just play this game and NOT see the things that I see. But nearly every game, I see stuff like that, and I'm not even joking.

    I still play, because there IS some good in the game. It's just disheartening too see that there's also too many things wrong (STILL wrong) with it after all these years without being addressed. I get that it's not easy to program a game like NHL 18, but that's not an excuse to repeatedly leave the game in this state year after year. It just looks bad when you notice a bug or a flaw or an exploit that you've seen 3-4 years ago and it's STILL not fixed...

    @KidShowtime1867 (AKA KroyDub).

    TL:DR

    But I bet it went something like this: "Game is flawless. Only people that are bad and lose all the time comlpain. I'm the best, I win all the time so I don't complain". We've heard it all before... It wasn't true (or funny) the first thousand times you said it. Won't be true in the future.
    Sgt_Kelso wrote: »
    Didn't read that wall of text (Kory is it you?), but if you don't see how this Sinbin is like a broken record, I can't help you.

    With these guys, It's always 'I dont' have any issues' and 'are you sure it's not your modem', 'do you have have video proof' or whatever... like it was our job to prove you EA yes-men that the issue really exists. The issues are many and plain to see. If you really don't see them, I have to question your reason.

    Couple things. One he used tons of paragraphs there so it's actually very readable compared to some actual walls of text I've seen. Second he's right, a change in perspective is so helpful not just when looking at this game but in any game or anything in your life.

    The example I like to use when talking to people about this is: I was backing into my driveway and the garbage cans were in the way and I managed to squeeze around them and such. I was telling someone about what a pain it was having to go around them. They said don't think of it as a pain, think of it as an exercise in vehicle control.

    You can use that kind of perspective to make almost any situation into a learning experience over a stressful/frustrating one.

    There's "perspective" and then there's "resignation". I think it's more the latter you're talking about which is what a lot of people have issues with. Sure, we could all just resign ourselves to the state of the game and be completely oblivious (like Sinbin, Kory and a handful of other trolls). But then how are we being fans of the game if we just resign and don't ask for things to be improved?

    You of all people shouldn't' be talking about "resigning" ourselves to the reality of this game... Especially considering you've been clamoring non-stop for NHL to come to PC when it likely NEVER will. How 'bout you resign yourself to the fact that you NEED to get a console to play NHL 18 and future NHL games.

    How's THAT for perspective?

    Well played. You are one of the guys here that's actually a pleasure to speak with. I don't mind sinbin and kidshow, I don't necessarily agree with them but that doesn't mean their opinions don't mean anything or that they mean less than anyone else's.

    I like many of you saw the poor state of this series, I opted out. Now I don't even have a modern console and play on pc. Sure it'd be nice to see more sports games on pc but there are some albeit limited and even more niche than NHL. Also they either require time in management games or there's huge learning curve like in hockey (question mark).

    Both are fun but lack the pickup and play ability of an ea sports game.

    The biggest thing that makes me glad I'm not still playing NHL is that I see many of the same problems that we all noticed and pointed out on last gen. Lots of goalie issues, poking issues, exploitable shots, etc.

    You really want to make a difference in this game. Stop buying it. Whether they cancel it or completely redesign it is up to them but either way it'd be better for the genre of game.
  • A better and more simple solution would be if 2K games started making NHL2K I’d buy that religiously from now on and never buy EA NHL again.

    Even if it had just as many or more issues?

    Wouldn’t be physically possible to fit more bugs and poor coding into a single game than this. Can do nothing but improve on it.
  • VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    "I'm the best, I win all the time so I don't complain[/i]". We've heard it all before... It wasn't true (or funny) the first thousand times you said it. Won't be true in the future.

    I have literally never said those words.

    I mean, I beat you on Saturday (Presuming VeNOM3099 on XBL is the same as VeNOM2099 here..) - I literally said "gg man" and your response was, "You got lucky".

    You are the classic example of "I'm the best at this game, and if I lose, it's the game's fault."



  • You really want to make a difference in this game. Stop buying it.

    As much as I'm an "EA Shill" and a 'suck up' to the franchise, I've always said that if people really hate it that much - stop buying it. It's the only way to send the message that the game is indeed, 'broken'.
  • Bmh245 wrote: »
    Sinbin wrote: »
    My AI never run in to my own goalie in H2H games.

    And Sinbin somehow manages to top himself in the "Absolutely absurd statements about this game" competition.

    Neither have I. Neither have lots of people.

    You see the same 10-15 people complaining of these absurd AI issues - if it stinks like poop everywhere you go, look under your own shoe.
  • You really want to make a difference in this game. Stop buying it.

    As much as I'm an "EA Shill" and a 'suck up' to the franchise, I've always said that if people really hate it that much - stop buying it. It's the only way to send the message that the game is indeed, 'broken'.

    It wasn't even that the game was "broken" per se. I just stopped having fun playing it and it was more like work than something to do for fun.

    It seems many others appear to feel that way yet they continue to buy the game. So either they are gluttons for punishment or they just like to come on the forums and hate ea while actually having fun with the game.
  • VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    "I'm the best, I win all the time so I don't complain[/i]". We've heard it all before... It wasn't true (or funny) the first thousand times you said it. Won't be true in the future.

    I have literally never said those words.

    I mean, I beat you on Saturday (Presuming VeNOM3099 on XBL is the same as VeNOM2099 here..) - I literally said "gg man" and your response was, "You got lucky".

    You are the classic example of "I'm the best at this game, and if I lose, it's the game's fault."



    What I replied to your "gg man" was (and I quote): "Yeah. But you got lucky; your goalie bailed you out and I hit the post."

    Nothing "raging" about that... Stats were pretty even on both sides, you just hit the mesh twice and I hit the goalie/post. Don't mind losing when things are close and weird stuff doesn't happen.

    As for the thread subject, we're supposed to be talking about the Survey which EA sent out to gather the "pulse" of the customer and maybe talk about future improvements to the series. As long as we keep to within those parameters (IE what can they do to improve the game), I think there's no danger of derailing things.
  • ...or they just like to come on the forums and hate ea while actually having fun with the game.

    I get the feeling this is the case with some people lol
  • Those are they only options you can think of? How about people who simply love hockey? This is the only option currently (unless you count Old Time Hockey) to play a hockey game, and you can enjoy the hockey side of the game, but be extremely unhappy about bugs and poor programming, can't you?

    If there are only 15 people on this forum complaining about poor AI (and I doubt it), it's still 5 times more than the three EA sycophants here - and they might be all the same person, for all we know?

    Why not make survey about how happy people are with this game, and this time include peeps on this forum?

  • Sgt_Kelso wrote: »
    Those are they only options you can think of? How about people who simply love hockey? This is the only option currently (unless you count Old Time Hockey) to play a hockey game, and you can enjoy the hockey side of the game, but be extremely unhappy about bugs and poor programming, can't you?

    If there are only 15 people on this forum complaining about poor AI (and I doubt it), it's still 5 times more than the three EA sycophants here - and they might be all the same person, for all we know?

    Why not make survey about how happy people are with this game, and this time include peeps on this forum?

    That's a poor excuse. I like hockey and I don't have to have an nhl game. Watching highlights and the occasional game is enough for me. If you really do love it why not join a rec league? It's far more realistic than anything ea could do.

    So many of you claim to hate the game for any reason or another and yet here you are day in and day out still playing the game you hate.

    I really hated red Sabre's takedown. Guess what? I don't play the game anymore at all. Why are so many of you playing a game you supposedly hate?
  • I think it's telling when users such as @Sgt_Kelso and @VeNOM2099 simply dismiss the opinions of users who actually have positive things to say, and who offer very good counter-arguments

    Sinbin isn't offering "counter-arguments." He's just saying he's not seeing these things that are plainly visible to anyone who plays the game. There's nothing to do with comments like his other than dismiss them, because he's not paying close enough attention to the game. If he was saying, "Yes, the game has all these flaws, but I have fun anyway," it'd be fine. But that's not what he's saying.
    to their claims that everything that goes wrong in their games is the fault of EA's "terrible programming".

    Look, when AI players smash into your goalie, that's terrible programming. When you're going up the wing on a 2-on-1, and your AI teammate skates toward you, instead of going wide, that's terrible programming. When you're playing a tight point defense, and your AI players all end up below the hashmarks, that's terrible programming. And when AI players constantly end up with their backs turned to the puck because they don't know how to pivot correctly to face it - something that's as bad this year as it has been since next-gen NHL 15 - that's terrible programming. This doesn't mean the programmers are bad people. It means they've done a bad job.
    They see a puck bounce over a stick, and instead of thinking "Oh, that's kind of neat how a puck bounce can effect a game - just like in real life" - the pessimistic culture of hating this game thinks "EA SPORTS doesn't know how to make a game (despite 20+ years of success) and they suck."

    Maybe there are people here who complain about stuff that happens in the game that also happens IRL. But I think most people who complain complain about stuff that happens in the game that could never happen IRL. Stuff like:

    Pucks going through sticks.

    Sticks going through bodies and then still poking the puck away.

    Sticks poking the puck away without ever touching the puck.

    Sticks not knocking the puck away despite hitting the puck.

    Pucks going through skates.

    Pucks going through goalie pads.

    Players getting leveled by big hits and then magically getting up to pick up the puck before anyone else reacts.


    And you know, I get it - it's a game. It can't be expected to mimic real life perfectly. And that would be fine, if its lack of realism was consistent. The last-gen game wasn't very realistic when it came to things like stick-body interactions. But it was consistent - you always knew how the game's physics would work.

    The next-gen game, by contrast, is both unrealistic and inconsistent - sometimes a puck will go through a stick, sometimes it won't. Sometimes you can poke your stick through a player's body and still knock the puck away, sometimes you can't. Sometimes putting your stick into a player's legs will get you a penalty, sometimes (most of the time) it won't. Sometimes you can just put your stick through the boards, but sometimes you can't.

    You never know, in any given interaction, whether this time the physics will work the way they're "supposed" to, or whether they'll just break down. It's all a crapshoot. And that's incredibly frustrating, because hockey is already the most random of major sports. But on top of the randomness that's inherent to hockey, the next-gen game has injected an entire new level of randomness, which is the randomness created by physics that come and go at the whim of the CPU.
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