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AI in NHL 18 is beyond shocking

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  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    PJ_Bullet wrote: »

    Well said my friend but, don't forget about the ridiculous idea of programming the computer players to pass the puck, their skates, and their sticks through solid objects over and over again. My stick certainly doesn't pass through anything when I have the puck.

    See all the fake excuses in the world such as it is difficult to create and intelligent game won't pass because we can simply keep pointing back to the way you *Decided* to program your game. What is so difficult that it caused your programmers to program the computer team to ignore solid objects EA? On pins and needs waiting for the answer!!!

    Since conspiracy theories obviously add to anger, I can tell you that the ai isn't programmed to follow any different physical rules of the world than a human player/team.

    You may see bugs where the collision detection doesn't work as expected but those would happen in cases where you have the puck as well.

  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    edited March 2018
    If you guys were serious about community feedback you would be looking into all the issues the community has complained about last 3 years. But out of 100s I can only think of a few that have been addressed.

    On this topic, you are basically saying that creating a smart balanced ai is very difficult but that you are close. Start small. Fix the obvious stuff that's been there forever. Like board play. In fact get rid of it until you develop a working system.

    How about drawing a big bubble around your own net so ai can't ever pass there.

    Have the ai understand that when chasing pucks on the boards, if he's being chased he has to move the puck one way or the other immediately rather than turn it over 100% of the time.

    Get rid of the stupid mechanism that says the ai will decide if they are going to pass when called. It's broken. So many situations where you are wide open for good chances and you have to spam for it and still nothing. Had many 2-0 breakaways where I pass to ai and he doesn't pass back even if I spam button. Just shoots into goalie belly. Worst is when he finally does but your guy is now forced into 1 touch pass.

    Get rid of ai super speed and insane checking that projects from 25 feet away.

    I could go on for hours with basic simple ai fixes that have been needed for years. This is why I try to only play 6s. Of course all it takes is lag or whatever and someone drops or gets kicked and now you have ai.

    Really sad thing is I think this is way down on priority list. This game is full of low hanging fruit that is more important that should be addressed.

    If EA cared about this product and it's community they would put 100% of their efforts, for at least a year, fixing all the problems.

    There isn't much I can say to change such a subjective bias towards how serious we are or how much we care without you spending some time at our studio and seeing how we work. However, here I am writing back to you on a Saturday morning before I go out for lunch with my family because I do care and I am also one of the games biggest critics. The main difference between myself and many of you is that I decided to pursue a career where I could work on the product. Before that, I was a very active player in the community, helping out mod projects, creating updated art for the PC version of the game, winning cash prize leagues, etc.. That dedication and passion for the product hasn't changed and has only grown.

    I get what it is like to be a dedicated member of the community and wanting the game to improve -- That is why I took it a step further than writing to the developers and pursued a career in the field. But before I did that, my feedback to developers dates back before there were easy options on the internet to get on a forum and chat back and forth -- I wrote letters by hand, stamped envelopes and even got a few replies, which is why I like having that same interaction now.

    So I know that perception is reality and I don't expect you to ever lower your bar for what we should achieve, as I won't either. However, you should know that it isn't black and white. You will always be able to call out more things that can improve but that doesn't necessarily correlate to how much dedication has already gone into the product or how much the team cares to continue improving.


  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    FTProtocal wrote: »
    Wanted to rewrite my reply.

    What I appreciate most about this is that an NHL Dev actually replied to this thread and explained exactly how the mechanics work, that is appreciated.

    I was unaware that on Superstar the player's team is still All-Star skill, that definitely explains the 'skill' gap when playing non-locked mode. I can't say I agree with that, but your explanation does make sense that on the hardest mode it should be very challenging - but it doesn't seem logical.

    With that said, and with what you've stated, I still don't quite agree/see how having our AI teammates on All-Star vs Superstar gives anymore of an actual challenge other than just putting the AI teammates at Superstar - once the puck lands on an AI stick it becomes the player anyway, and your skill still has to come through to finish. If you're on Superstar mode, all the AI should be as well - it would STILL provide a substantial challenge based purely on the fact that the AI team will still be just as potent, it's just that now our AI teammates won't be so 'dumb/useless' compared to their AI counterparts.

    Although I do understand that the focus on Superstar is the human player to be a 'superstar', it feels like the actual game of hockey (team play) is damaged due to the fact that your literally do need to be a one-man army.

    That is the reason why in player locked modes, we keep it level on Superstar as that would be a one man army. However, in non-locked play, since you can switch players on defense, you aren't a one man army, you are one person controlling the majority of what the army does, which is a difference. Again, the main reason we do this is because some of our players want something that is more challenging than All Star across the board, not just on offense. Also, keep in mind that offensive positioning of your teammates and their strategies and how well they employ them is the same for your team as the Superstar ai team. It would just be your personal ability to find them open and execute on your shots as well as either the All Star or Superstar ai, depending on which level you choose to play on.

    The way you explain it is as if offense is the main difference in games but puck retrieval is a big part of it as well. Your argument is almost the counter argument to what people bring up when the talk about skill zone. Is the human player better if their ai are the ones that cause the turnover or retrieve the puck in a lot of cases? There are points to be made on both sides as, although this is a team game, you are still only controlling one player at a time. We do expect that the decisions you make in terms of who you switch into are making the biggest difference between wins and losses for a human controlled team though.

    Some of our players like Superstar the way it is and others tweak game sliders to dial things in to their liking, while others enjoy playing on All Star or even Pro (and can tweak game sliders from there as well). Lots of options to dial things in to your liking.

    Out of curiosity, what is the main thing holding you back from playing on All Star other than knowing that Superstar is a higher setting and wanting the top challenge? And if you want the top challenge, why would you want your ai teammates controlling more of the turnovers and puck retrieval rather than yourself?
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    FTProtocal wrote: »
    Wanted to rewrite my reply.

    What I appreciate most about this is that an NHL Dev actually replied to this thread and explained exactly how the mechanics work, that is appreciated.

    I was unaware that on Superstar the player's team is still All-Star skill, that definitely explains the 'skill' gap when playing non-locked mode. I can't say I agree with that, but your explanation does make sense that on the hardest mode it should be very challenging - but it doesn't seem logical.

    With that said, and with what you've stated, I still don't quite agree/see how having our AI teammates on All-Star vs Superstar gives anymore of an actual challenge other than just putting the AI teammates at Superstar - once the puck lands on an AI stick it becomes the player anyway, and your skill still has to come through to finish. If you're on Superstar mode, all the AI should be as well - it would STILL provide a substantial challenge based purely on the fact that the AI team will still be just as potent, it's just that now our AI teammates won't be so 'dumb/useless' compared to their AI counterparts.

    Although I do understand that the focus on Superstar is the human player to be a 'superstar', it feels like the actual game of hockey (team play) is damaged due to the fact that your literally do need to be a one-man army.

    That is the reason why in player locked modes, we keep it level on Superstar as that would be a one man army. However, in non-locked play, since you can switch players on defense, you aren't a one man army, you are one person controlling the majority of what the army does, which is a difference. Again, the main reason we do this is because some of our players want something that is more challenging than All Star across the board, not just on offense. Also, keep in mind that offensive positioning of your teammates and their strategies and how well they employ them is the same for your team as the Superstar ai team. It would just be your personal ability to find them open and execute on your shots as well as either the All Star or Superstar ai, depending on which level you choose to play on.

    The way you explain it is as if offense is the main difference in games but puck retrieval is a big part of it as well. Your argument is almost the counter argument to what people bring up when the talk about skill zone. Is the human player better if their ai are the ones that cause the turnover or retrieve the puck in a lot of cases? There are points to be made on both sides as, although this is a team game, you are still only controlling one player at a time. We do expect that the decisions you make in terms of who you switch into are making the biggest difference between wins and losses for a human controlled team though.

    Some of our players like Superstar the way it is and others tweak game sliders to dial things in to their liking, while others enjoy playing on All Star or even Pro (and can tweak game sliders from there as well). Lots of options to dial things in to your liking.

    Out of curiosity, what is the main thing holding you back from playing on All Star other than knowing that Superstar is a higher setting and wanting the top challenge? And if you want the top challenge, why would you want your ai teammates controlling more of the turnovers and puck retrieval rather than yourself?

    As I read through this thread in its entirety, and your replies, I'm still not in agreement with pro-Superstar (positive) argument(s), but I do get the points, and ... it's an interesting debate/issue.

    With that said, I feel the opposite/torn to you with regards to locked and non-locked modes. For me I see it as, in locked mode (since I play D most of the time) I allow my teammates (on Superstar) to play hockey, it's a team game ultimately and I like to be the point man, setup plays, play D, etc. So that to me feels like a team game ... BUT, I get the other side of the debate as well, when playing locked F, say Center, one can become a one man army, often - but you're also Center, so I dunno.

    I feel like in non-locked mode on Superstar, the element of team play is actually lost because I essentially do have to become a one man army, in both zones. I have no issues going in for puck battles/retrieval with the AI as the human player, I love playing D (and perhaps I alluded to Offense only, which was not my intent) and I wouldn't want my teammates doing anything but be in their proper positions and play at the same 'skill level' as their AI counterparts.

    The reason I don't often play on All-Star is because for me it's no longer the challenge I want, so I want to play Superstar but ... it doesn't seem 'fair'. I feel like now knowing that my teammates are All-Star that actually gives some 'closure'. Like many others on here, we ask ourselves "am I poop or like ... wait a minute ... no, my teammates are hungover"

    I get that Superstar was developed for players who want the ultimate challenge, and that's perfectly fine. But ... I still don't feel like this mode is a fair 'ultimate challenge', in the sense of team play and good hockey. The way I sum this up in my mind right now ... The player is always The Might Ducks (1992); the underdog, it's not a fair playing field, can you pull off the ultimate Cinderella story?!, etc. Not saying that's what it was ever designed to feel like, but .... I suppose I could become the next Adam Banks.
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    FTProtocal wrote: »
    Wanted to rewrite my reply.

    What I appreciate most about this is that an NHL Dev actually replied to this thread and explained exactly how the mechanics work, that is appreciated.

    I was unaware that on Superstar the player's team is still All-Star skill, that definitely explains the 'skill' gap when playing non-locked mode. I can't say I agree with that, but your explanation does make sense that on the hardest mode it should be very challenging - but it doesn't seem logical.

    With that said, and with what you've stated, I still don't quite agree/see how having our AI teammates on All-Star vs Superstar gives anymore of an actual challenge other than just putting the AI teammates at Superstar - once the puck lands on an AI stick it becomes the player anyway, and your skill still has to come through to finish. If you're on Superstar mode, all the AI should be as well - it would STILL provide a substantial challenge based purely on the fact that the AI team will still be just as potent, it's just that now our AI teammates won't be so 'dumb/useless' compared to their AI counterparts.

    Although I do understand that the focus on Superstar is the human player to be a 'superstar', it feels like the actual game of hockey (team play) is damaged due to the fact that your literally do need to be a one-man army.

    That is the reason why in player locked modes, we keep it level on Superstar as that would be a one man army. However, in non-locked play, since you can switch players on defense, you aren't a one man army, you are one person controlling the majority of what the army does, which is a difference. Again, the main reason we do this is because some of our players want something that is more challenging than All Star across the board, not just on offense. Also, keep in mind that offensive positioning of your teammates and their strategies and how well they employ them is the same for your team as the Superstar ai team. It would just be your personal ability to find them open and execute on your shots as well as either the All Star or Superstar ai, depending on which level you choose to play on.

    The way you explain it is as if offense is the main difference in games but puck retrieval is a big part of it as well. Your argument is almost the counter argument to what people bring up when the talk about skill zone. Is the human player better if their ai are the ones that cause the turnover or retrieve the puck in a lot of cases? There are points to be made on both sides as, although this is a team game, you are still only controlling one player at a time. We do expect that the decisions you make in terms of who you switch into are making the biggest difference between wins and losses for a human controlled team though.

    Some of our players like Superstar the way it is and others tweak game sliders to dial things in to their liking, while others enjoy playing on All Star or even Pro (and can tweak game sliders from there as well). Lots of options to dial things in to your liking.

    Out of curiosity, what is the main thing holding you back from playing on All Star other than knowing that Superstar is a higher setting and wanting the top challenge? And if you want the top challenge, why would you want your ai teammates controlling more of the turnovers and puck retrieval rather than yourself?

    Not sure exactly who you are or what you do but I will say this. I appreciate the concern and time you take to respond here. But obviously it's not enough as none of the problems with this game are ever being addressed. Actions speak louder than words. If EA cares about feedback they need to do something about it.

    Also this isn't directed at you since there is no way I could ever have any idea who contributes what on this game. It's directed at EA and the parties responsible. Maybe that is you, no idea. But I will give you credit for coming here and talking. But the time for talk is so far past done. Time for action and results.
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    edited March 2018
    FTProtocal wrote: »
    As I read through this thread in its entirety, and your replies, I'm still not in agreement with pro-Superstar (positive) argument(s), but I do get the points, and ... it's an interesting debate/issue.

    With that said, I feel the opposite/torn to you with regards to locked and non-locked modes. For me I see it as, in locked mode (since I play D most of the time) I allow my teammates (on Superstar) to play hockey, it's a team game ultimately and I like to be the point man, setup plays, play D, etc. So that to me feels like a team game ... BUT, I get the other side of the debate as well, when playing locked F, say Center, one can become a one man army, often - but you're also Center, so I dunno.

    I feel like in non-locked mode on Superstar, the element of team play is actually lost because I essentially do have to become a one man army, in both zones. I have no issues going in for puck battles/retrieval with the AI as the human player, I love playing D (and perhaps I alluded to Offense only, which was not my intent) and I wouldn't want my teammates doing anything but be in their proper positions and play at the same 'skill level' as their AI counterparts.

    The reason I don't often play on All-Star is because for me it's no longer the challenge I want, so I want to play Superstar but ... it doesn't seem 'fair'. I feel like now knowing that my teammates are All-Star that actually gives some 'closure'. Like many others on here, we ask ourselves "am I poop or like ... wait a minute ... no, my teammates are hungover"

    I get that Superstar was developed for players who want the ultimate challenge, and that's perfectly fine. But ... I still don't feel like this mode is a fair 'ultimate challenge', in the sense of team play and good hockey. The way I sum this up in my mind right now ... The player is always The Might Ducks (1992); the underdog, it's not a fair playing field, can you pull off the ultimate Cinderella story?!, etc. Not saying that's what it was ever designed to feel like, but .... I suppose I could become the next Adam Banks.

    Overall, as you mentioned, there are choices to make depending on what the goals are. However, I think you are missing some of what I was saying.

    On both All Star and Superstar, the ai is the same in terms of positioning. Where they differ are the active pieces of the game that we expect humans to control in non-locked games (response to puck retrieval, reading an open part of the net when shooting, reading open teammates/passing lanes when making passes, pokecheck/stick lift timing, etc.).

    I also don't think you feel the opposite to me in terms of locked gameplay. The way you are playing as a single locked defender is exactly why the rest of the game is balanced so that you can play your role.

    If you want your ai teammates to be actively getting the puck back for you when playing on Superstar, you may just prefer locked gameplay as opposed to the main point of non-locked gameplay for most people that does expect the human player to be more active on the puck as opposed to away from it.

  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer

    Not sure exactly who you are or what you do but I will say this. I appreciate the concern and time you take to respond here. But obviously it's not enough as none of the problems with this game are ever being addressed. Actions speak louder than words. If EA cares about feedback they need to do something about it.

    Also this isn't directed at you since there is no way I could ever have any idea who contributes what on this game. It's directed at EA and the parties responsible. Maybe that is you, no idea. But I will give you credit for coming here and talking. But the time for talk is so far past done. Time for action and results.

    Completely agree. However, there are many on these boards that feel communication on these boards is important. It is fun to talk about the game with other people that are passionate about it as that is what I do all day anyways but regardless if I write on these boards or not, our dedication in studio to make a great product would be the same. We aren't trading any action for talk, which is partly why I have a bit more time to write late at night or on a Saturday than I do during a weekday.

    I am the producer responsible for Gameplay so I do take full responsibility even though I am not coding the game at all myself. I can't make decisions based solely on individual forum members wishlists but I certainly take them all into account when assessing the big picture and work closely with the team so that they understand the landscape of how the game is playing in the hands of all of our players.

    The main reason I am still working on the product is because I think there is a lot of room for improvement but I can't agree with you that 'none of the problems with the game are ever addressed'.

  • NHLDev wrote: »
    PJ_Bullet wrote: »

    Well said my friend but, don't forget about the ridiculous idea of programming the computer players to pass the puck, their skates, and their sticks through solid objects over and over again. My stick certainly doesn't pass through anything when I have the puck.

    See all the fake excuses in the world such as it is difficult to create and intelligent game won't pass because we can simply keep pointing back to the way you *Decided* to program your game. What is so difficult that it caused your programmers to program the computer team to ignore solid objects EA? On pins and needs waiting for the answer!!!

    Since conspiracy theories obviously add to anger, I can tell you that the ai isn't programmed to follow any different physical rules of the world than a human player/team.

    You may see bugs where the collision detection doesn't work as expected but those would happen in cases where you have the puck as well.

    lol. U keep trying don’t u? It’s a mistake. It’s a glitch. Glitches happen randomly within a bad string of code and they don’t always happen in favor of one side. The computer team. I’ll even throw u a bone and pretend I accept ur excuse. That would make ur programmers the dumbest bunch of coders to ever live to keep writing the same bad code in every version of their program and expecting something different to happen. If that is ur story and ur sticking to it, god bless u but, I think u know u need a better one. Conspiracy theorist need to recruit people who think like them. I can go to a thousand forums about EA see my words coming from strangers. Are all of those people crazy and EA IS just misunderstood?

  • Socair
    2814 posts Game Changer
    PJ_Bullet wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    PJ_Bullet wrote: »

    Well said my friend but, don't forget about the ridiculous idea of programming the computer players to pass the puck, their skates, and their sticks through solid objects over and over again. My stick certainly doesn't pass through anything when I have the puck.

    See all the fake excuses in the world such as it is difficult to create and intelligent game won't pass because we can simply keep pointing back to the way you *Decided* to program your game. What is so difficult that it caused your programmers to program the computer team to ignore solid objects EA? On pins and needs waiting for the answer!!!

    Since conspiracy theories obviously add to anger, I can tell you that the ai isn't programmed to follow any different physical rules of the world than a human player/team.

    You may see bugs where the collision detection doesn't work as expected but those would happen in cases where you have the puck as well.

    lol. U keep trying don’t u? It’s a mistake. It’s a glitch. Glitches happen randomly within a bad string of code and they don’t always happen in favor of one side. The computer team. I’ll even throw u a bone and pretend I accept ur excuse. That would make ur programmers the dumbest bunch of coders to ever live to keep writing the same bad code in every version of their program and expecting something different to happen. If that is ur story and ur sticking to it, god bless u but, I think u know u need a better one. Conspiracy theorist need to recruit people who think like them. I can go to a thousand forums about EA see my words coming from strangers. Are all of those people crazy and EA IS just misunderstood?

    I know you’re complaining about AI that can predict your every move and can pass through solid objects, so can you provide a series of clips to prove this is constantly happening? I would if I was having such a bad time in game.

    When I play offline versus the AI, I adjust sliders to help me get the AI playing in a way I enjoy. But I have never felt that they are that god-like and can read my inputs or that they get more leniency with collision detection.

    We have a gameplay developer here actively discussing the game with us, please don’t scare him off lol.
  • NHLDev wrote: »

    Not sure exactly who you are or what you do but I will say this. I appreciate the concern and time you take to respond here. But obviously it's not enough as none of the problems with this game are ever being addressed. Actions speak louder than words. If EA cares about feedback they need to do something about it.

    Also this isn't directed at you since there is no way I could ever have any idea who contributes what on this game. It's directed at EA and the parties responsible. Maybe that is you, no idea. But I will give you credit for coming here and talking. But the time for talk is so far past done. Time for action and results.

    Completely agree. However, there are many on these boards that feel communication on these boards is important. It is fun to talk about the game with other people that are passionate about it as that is what I do all day anyways but regardless if I write on these boards or not, our dedication in studio to make a great product would be the same. We aren't trading any action for talk, which is partly why I have a bit more time to write late at night or on a Saturday than I do during a weekday.

    I am the producer responsible for Gameplay so I do take full responsibility even though I am not coding the game at all myself. I can't make decisions based solely on individual forum members wishlists but I certainly take them all into account when assessing the big picture and work closely with the team so that they understand the landscape of how the game is playing in the hands of all of our players.

    The main reason I am still working on the product is because I think there is a lot of room for improvement but I can't agree with you that 'none of the problems with the game are ever addressed'.

    I’m still waiting for u guys to answer why u program the computer team to ignor solid objects on a continuous basis. We still have no button to retrieve a lose puck right next to us. We can’t even skate to a puck because the ai makes us cost so the computer can retrieve the puck. We can’t even control a poke check cause ai is programmed to make our guy trip 10 players per game. I’m not even going to get started on the human team just standing around. So I don’t know what problems have been addressed but they obviously are ones no one cares about. “Wish list”? We just want the basic skills that real hockey players have. We don’t need a special button that allows us to score every time. Just the opportunity and ability to do it wrong or right so I don’t what wish list it referring to. I just want what I payed for. The chance to play the game the way real hockey players do.
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    PJ_Bullet wrote: »
    lol. U keep trying don’t u? It’s a mistake. It’s a glitch. Glitches happen randomly within a bad string of code and they don’t always happen in favor of one side. The computer team. I’ll even throw u a bone and pretend I accept ur excuse. That would make ur programmers the dumbest bunch of coders to ever live to keep writing the same bad code in every version of their program and expecting something different to happen. If that is ur story and ur sticking to it, god bless u but, I think u know u need a better one. Conspiracy theorist need to recruit people who think like them. I can go to a thousand forums about EA see my words coming from strangers. Are all of those people crazy and EA IS just misunderstood?

    You can go to an NHL teams forum and read about how referees always call penalties against their team and not the other as well. That doesn't confirm that it is true. Confirmation bias plays a roll. Also remember, if the ai had a forum, they may be complaining about you as well.

    All joking aside, some of these problems are complex. That isn't an excuse, it is just the reality. We have lots of discussions around improvements to physics and accurately dealing with collisions with a fast moving object like a puck or animations that move a stick a considerable distance frame to frame. You will find lots of people discussing these types of issues online when it comes to physics sims. If you google 'bullet through paper' you will get an idea on the types of variables, even though that isn't exactly the scenario we are speaking about here necessarily.
  • Follisimo
    1346 posts Member
    @NHLDev Why do you allow people who spam poke check or just keep the stick out the ability to skate with any such speed? Players in real life stop moving their feet when attempting to poke much less spam the ability. With poke checks being very effective if they miss it should result in potentially dangerous consequences but it usually doesn't because they can recover with such ease.

    Here is a good question I feel. Does a pokecheck only result in a penalty from it going out or can it also result in one from the pull back?

    Also the game is still lacking that breakout speed of players like MacKinnon and McDavid have where 3 strong strides and they blow past a defender who didn't control the gap that well.
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    Superstar is our highest difficulty level and some players want/need an extreme challenge. When you play on All Star in a non-locked mode, both your team ai and your opponent are All Star, however, if you are on Superstar, your team's ai is still All Star, as we expect the human player to do even more manually if they want that challenge themselves as opposed to having their ai meet that challenge.

    When you play in player locked modes, both yours and your opponent ai are the same so that there isn't a balance issue with so many ai players making a difference in the gameplay as opposed to when you are not locked and expected to switch more on defense and always control the puck on offense.

    The ai doesn't read inputs but it may read a direction change or start of an animation way faster than a human player and therefore be perceived as cheating. They can be tuned to recognize loose pucks quicker than the average human at times so get that extra step to retrieve a puck but some human players are extremely quick with the twitch game as well. They may also notice a hole opening up on the goalie faster than some humans would or recognize a player being open for a pass quicker. These are things we have the ability to tune by skill level. I realize that many players want to play on Superstar since it is listed as the best but if you don't prefer that experience, drop it down and play on All Star or Pro instead.

    I would like to look at our top difficulties and add more realistic delays at times as it shouldn't just be that they are slower all the time. There are times in a 2 on 0 where a human player will make bang bang passes back and forth so the ai needs to be able to do that too but they may not be able to read a part of the net opening up halfway through a deke unless they planned for it further in advance. Things like that.

    This might be the burning question I've been wanting answered for years! When player locked, you said both your team and the AI team are balanced. Does this mean if the sliders are all the same values for both AI and HUM, the game will be on even playing ground?

    My hope, is that in future versions, the game will play according to the player ratings, not some sliders. IMO, sliders should affect things like clock or volume, not player ratings. If we have pass accuracy and shooting sliders, don't those water down the player ratings for passing and shooting? In other words, if I have a player with a shooting accuracy of 80, but I put the shooting accuracy slider to 30, isn't that going to take away from the player rating?

    Thanks for taking the time to read these.
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    Steven5470 wrote: »

    This might be the burning question I've been wanting answered for years! When player locked, you said both your team and the AI team are balanced. Does this mean if the sliders are all the same values for both AI and HUM, the game will be on even playing ground?

    My hope, is that in future versions, the game will play according to the player ratings, not some sliders. IMO, sliders should affect things like clock or volume, not player ratings. If we have pass accuracy and shooting sliders, don't those water down the player ratings for passing and shooting? In other words, if I have a player with a shooting accuracy of 80, but I put the shooting accuracy slider to 30, isn't that going to take away from the player rating?

    Thanks for taking the time to read these.


    There are a lot of details we could get into around this but at a high level, the best way to look at it is that each mechanic in the game has multiple inputs into the outcome. The sliders give some insight into some of those variables. Player ratings get weighed into that formula as well.

    The difference in the base mechanics from something more Arcade up to Full Simulation is really how forgiving the tuning is. As you make things more forgiving, you are raising the floor and leaving less room for ratings variation. As you make things less forgiving, which is more what it is like on Full Sim, there is a lot more room for error and thus player ratings will be seen as having a bigger impact.

    In both cases, player ratings and the mechanics work the same, just the weighting on those variables change so a player with a 90 rating will always be better than one with 60 but your shot accuracy on Arcade settings across the board will be higher than what it is on Full Sim.



  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    Follisimo wrote: »
    @NHLDev Why do you allow people who spam poke check or just keep the stick out the ability to skate with any such speed? Players in real life stop moving their feet when attempting to poke much less spam the ability. With poke checks being very effective if they miss it should result in potentially dangerous consequences but it usually doesn't because they can recover with such ease.

    Here is a good question I feel. Does a pokecheck only result in a penalty from it going out or can it also result in one from the pull back?

    Also the game is still lacking that breakout speed of players like MacKinnon and McDavid have where 3 strong strides and they blow past a defender who didn't control the gap that well.

    If you are spamming pokecheck, you are losing speed and you are also losing accuracy on your pokes. If you have the stick held out, you are able to skate as you can in real life but your skating ability is limited compared to skating normally.

    On a pokecheck, you should only be drawing penalties on the forceful part of the action so when you are retracting it, you won't trip a player. This is to simulate the forceful part of the action with intent vs being able to relax your arm/wrist and manipulate how strong and what angle you bring the stick back.

    If you are in a defensive skill stick state, any sweep of the stick can cause a trip but similar to pokecheck, if you are blending out of that action it won't trip a player during that time again to simulate something you are doing with force/intent vs more relaxed.

  • NHLDev wrote: »
    Follisimo wrote: »
    @NHLDev Why do you allow people who spam poke check or just keep the stick out the ability to skate with any such speed? Players in real life stop moving their feet when attempting to poke much less spam the ability. With poke checks being very effective if they miss it should result in potentially dangerous consequences but it usually doesn't because they can recover with such ease.

    Here is a good question I feel. Does a pokecheck only result in a penalty from it going out or can it also result in one from the pull back?

    Also the game is still lacking that breakout speed of players like MacKinnon and McDavid have where 3 strong strides and they blow past a defender who didn't control the gap that well.

    If you are spamming pokecheck, you are losing speed and you are also losing accuracy on your pokes. If you have the stick held out, you are able to skate as you can in real life but your skating ability is limited compared to skating normally.

    On a pokecheck, you should only be drawing penalties on the forceful part of the action so when you are retracting it, you won't trip a player. This is to simulate the forceful part of the action with intent vs being able to relax your arm/wrist and manipulate how strong and what angle you bring the stick back.

    If you are in a defensive skill stick state, any sweep of the stick can cause a trip but similar to pokecheck, if you are blending out of that action it won't trip a player during that time again to simulate something you are doing with force/intent vs more relaxed.

    On the 1st point it doesn't slow you down enough when spamming poke where a player that is constantly skating pulls away like they would in real life.

    And I find that to be a flaw that you don't get penalties for the stick retracting. So many times in the NHL a reaching poke ends up in a players legs and of course they go down drawing that penalty. That should be something in the video game also. Pokechecks are about smartly timed defensive abilities.

    You didn't really answer about the ability to blow by a defender the way MacKinnon and McDavid do when a defender fails an attempt at a poke and is left usually off balance and then gets walked with nothing left to do but watch. I feel this has to do with how slow you make the gameplay on purpose so mistakes can be corrected instead of punished. The game is about speed and it should be deadly effective, but in a video game it doesn't exist. Trap teams are what slow down these star players but once they get room they become even more effective. I feel this is something that should be brought to the game.


    Also pretty please fix these stupid shots that happen in the game that result in unrealistic things. Yes I was a bit out of position but it's the show animation that is complete garbage. This stuff happens too much on the side of the net where it allows for scoring behind the goal line to happen a good of the time also. It shouldn't do this warping stuff.

    http://xboxclips.com/RhapsodicaI/c0a6d53f-369f-4b3a-84ec-50a3ac0d62c9/
  • sctty98
    291 posts Member
    edited March 2018
    I scored a goal tonight by poking tue puck right through the goalies pad. The puck was just sitting there. My stick went throught the pad and was then impalining the goalie through the gut. We've all seen the spam poking not slow the player down. That may be what it is supposed to do, but it isn't.

    Here's a list of things that need fixed.
    1. Puck going throught the goalies pads. Don't say it's lag, becasue it happens offline too.
    2. Puck pick ups. This should be common sense. Just go back to 17s coding.
    3. How bout being able to change strategies between periods.
    4. How about being able to switch your goalie. Thought that was one of the basics.
    5. How bout a style of hockey that doesn't involve wiggling back and forth, and spinning around in the corners.
    6. Goalies that can eventually recognize the backhand forehand.
    7. Go back to a competative game style. No more of the boosting and dumbing down teams just to keep the score close.
    8. How bout just getting rid of the push forward faceoff win. Every faceoff just turns into both guys trying to push forward.
    9. Poke from behind., it's just dumb.
    10. I don't play eshl, but sounds like everyone wants the old version back.
    11. GM connected, never played it, but sounds like a lot of people want that back too.
    12. I know every nhl game has had a sweet spot for scoring. Maybe come up with a way to move the sweet spot around so we could try different plays, instead of everyone going for the same shots all the time.
    13. How bout a way to punish people for playing the skillless zone d. Thought online I was supposed to play against other people, not just the AI.
    14. In HUT, how bout rewarding people who build a good team, instead of all the players just playing the same.
    15. I think you just need to start from scratch on the ai. Just seems like they played smarter on nhl 94 than they do now.
    16. When i first take control over a player, it usually feels like they are doing the opposite of what I want to do.
    17. Maybe have someone monitor the leader boards every once in a while. Figure out how to get rid of the ip booters.
    18. Been lots of bugs plaguing hut this year. If that is the main focus, you would think everything would work pretty seamlessly.
    19. Board play. For the love of god, just get rid of it. I'm so sick of getting sucked to the boards by a player that I have already gotten by.

    I could keep listing more things, but I'm tired. Just longing for the old days when this game provided endless hours of fun, instead of constant frustration. Might just be time for you guys to just start from scratch.
  • SpillGal wrote: »
    I am just missing the option of making an unexpected play. Whether they are quick or reading inputs doesn't matter ...

    I've made non-traditional hockey plays against AI, not easy to do but it can fool them and gives you half a second to pull it off. I once lobbed the puck in the air over the net from behind the net and my winger in front of the net batted it down past the goalie. that was a weird play but worked.
  • sctty98 wrote: »
    I could keep listing more things, but I'm tired. Just longing for the old days when this game provided endless hours of fun, instead of constant frustration. Might just be time for you guys to just start from scratch.

    I agree with a lot of thing in sctty98's list. I also think this thread has gotten a bit heated and that we should perhaps be a little less combative towards the Dev. It seems as if the dialogue between him and the rest of us has been pretty decent over the last couple of weeks so let's keep that going. Yelling back and forth does nothing (well in this case it is one way). We all want a great NHL game, so let's figure out how to get that. This level of interaction is awesome and, who knows, might be productive.

    NHL_Dev a common thing I see on these forums and in conversations with real life friends who play this game is a yearning for the "old days". I take that to mean like NHL 12 and before, really prior to whenever TPS was implemented. I very much enjoyed those games, much more than I do the recent iterations. I wonder if you have heard similar feedback or whether we are just a small minority clamoring for something the population at large has no interest in? My anecdotal experience talking to people makes me believe that a good portion of the player base (I would guess the majority) preferred the old games to the newer games. But I very may well be wrong. Maybe revenue is up, but I would think that has more to do with HUT and those micro transactions. I have a feeling the actual player base has shrunk considerably (again I may be wrong).

    I honestly believe that if the next game was, for all intents and purposes, "NHL 12 Remastered" or something like that (would not be called that obviously) with current-gen graphics, the HUT mode, etc. it would get a lot of people fired up for the game. I know me and the seven friends who I game with would preorder it immediately (we all wait until Christmas price drops these days).

    I think starting with the older games as a base would go a long way to making the game better.
  • @NHLDev would it be possible to look at defensive AI in EASHL? More specifically, when there is 1 human D and an AI D, for some reason, the AI D plays on his opposite wing all the time. I choose RD and sure enough, the AI LD is covering RD, and vice versa. I could be following the rush and be practically shadowing our RW, but sure enough, the AI LD literally races to cover my RD position. It isn't once in a while, it is literally every single game.

    Thank-you.
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