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Why doesn't this game ever reward great play?

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  • majjama_26
    175 posts Member
    edited September 2018
    CMBDeadly wrote: »
    Part of it is you can't tie up the body, there is only stick battles which leads to a hold. Like little nauces would be nice, the stick needs to be more dynamic.

    As a D man, my strategy was to meet the player streaking in for the rebound by tying him up before the puck reaches him. However, the game gives me interference calls for doing it. I can't hit because I might get a penalty. I can just body the guy, but teams get around this by having multiple guys streak towards the net. The chances for getting a rebound goal also go up if they have an AI charging the net as well. If you have an AI D trying to stop this play, good luck and say a prayer.
  • Sinbin wrote: »
    CMBDeadly wrote: »
    You are right and 6v6 is this game at it's best. However the issues around the 6v6 with humans, plus the little design choices like being able to be flat footed then catching a speeding player are atrocious.

    Flatfooted players that are getting blown past by the carrier aren't catching up. They're not moving since they're flatfooted. I've seen plenty of breakaways where a defender couldn't catch them because of this. If they do it's because the carrier turned or deked.

    People are so quick to say it's unfair that they got caught on a breakaway, but there's a lot they aren't considering so they blame some fictional catch up logic instead.

    Except I'm the dman that generally catches up. Just saying.
  • CMBDeadly wrote: »
    Sinbin wrote: »
    CMBDeadly wrote: »
    You are right and 6v6 is this game at it's best. However the issues around the 6v6 with humans, plus the little design choices like being able to be flat footed then catching a speeding player are atrocious.

    Flatfooted players that are getting blown past by the carrier aren't catching up. They're not moving since they're flatfooted. I've seen plenty of breakaways where a defender couldn't catch them because of this. If they do it's because the carrier turned or deked.

    People are so quick to say it's unfair that they got caught on a breakaway, but there's a lot they aren't considering so they blame some fictional catch up logic instead.

    Except I'm the dman that generally catches up. Just saying.

    AI D men or human? Or both?
  • flyextacy wrote: »
    Have to agree with kid on this one. The stat line isnt always indicative of how the game went. Similar to real life, hockey has a lot of random variables in which a weaker team any given night can get a win by being persistent and making the most of their opportunities. In online games it's the same way, a weaker team could be getting outplayed but still playing strong enough D to avoid goals and they make the most of their chances in the offensive zone.

    There are silly things that happen sometimes but they often don't decide the game all the time. Save some of your game replays and give it a rewatch. I bet you'll find instances where you missed a chance or played poor d ect ect. People hate losing and always want to blame the game before they take a look at what they did wrong.

    I think you and this other guy are misunderstanding the argument. This isn't a once in a blue moon occurrence. This has been a consistent problem year-in, year-out and I would be willing to say this happens multiple times a week if not at least once a day. You're probably right that in a game where you triple your opponents SOG that all 30 (assuming a game where shots are 30 to 10) shots are not necessarily high quality chances, BUT the 5+ that are there's always a ridiculous save made, player fans on wide open back door banger, etc.

    if you lose a game here and there, where you deserved to win but didn't, cool. It happens in the league all the time. Look back at the Pens vs Preds series two years ago when Preds lost a game where Pens didn't get a single shot on net like the entire 2nd or 3rd period (probably not spot on accuracy but you get my drift).

    The issue here is that those 10 chances the other team gets, they aren't "quality" chances. They are attempts to abuse the loopholes in this video game. For instance - guy enters zone and immediately cuts inside, twirls his stick behind his back in an unfathomable position and takes a wrister, with NO screens in front, from 2 feet inside the blue line. That is not, by any means, a quality scoring opportunity. Another instance - guy enters the zone, you play good D by keeping him to the outside and he puts the breaks on just inside the blue line. Then proceeds to fire a snap shot, standing still, on the ice at the net and the goalie can't handle a muffin and kicks it out to the forward crashing the net, even though you have 2 Dmen in front with great body position.

    Long story short, if I ever lose a game to an opponent who has great puck movement and can get to quality scoring areas at least 25% of his trips down the ice coupled with great D, my hat is off to them. Unfortunately in losses in this game that is rarely the case. No I'm not claiming to be the best chel player in the world, but I am always ranked top 300 in VS mode and usually stretches of games playing against constant abusers is what keeps me out of the top 50 at all times.
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    edited September 2018
    Some of this narrative is getting a bit old on these boards. We obviously have to do a better job in our education of the mechanics and in some cases have further improvements and tuning to make but the narrative that we do things to keep things close or even worse that it has to somehow do with revenue is very tired.

    Over the years, I have learned that although many people complained about glitch goals that there are a lot of people that liked that as it was more black and white and obvious when people had played the game a lot and could label certain ways to score and understand they were 100 percent success, even if they wouldn't make sense to someone coming to the game with knowledge of the real sport.

    When we broke down what was missing relative to the real world in a lot of these cases, it was a lot of the details (in some cases more or less subtle than others). For example, if a player can just skate through you dragging his stick through your legs and not lose control of the puck, they are going to get into high percentage areas of the ice way more often than they deserve against that opponent. Also, if you can skate one way at full speed and spin and shoot a slapshot to the opposite corner with perfect power and accuracy, the defensive team can't choose ways to defend that limit your best chances to score based on what knowledge they bring form the real world sport. If you can pass on your backhand as strong and as accurate as your forehand or shoot a one timer as good cross body as you can in your wheel house, again, these things make more shots and chances higher percentage and those details don't need to be considered. In those models though, it makes defense a lot different to play where angles and body position mean a lot less and just active contact with the player and puck are the only ways to defend.

    So in those earlier titles, you could pass to a player and shoot a one timer and it didn't matter if they were left or right handed, moving away from the net vs towards it, if the passer sold shot to get the goalie to commit before passing, if the pass itself was on the forehand or backhand, etc., and due to that, more one timers were scored when less thought was taken. On the defensive side, interceptions and deflections of pucks were a lot less consistent, incidental stick and body contact didn't disrupt passes/shots and the list goes on. And that is just relative to one timers. Straight wristshots and slapshots and the details in goalie read and reaction time, angles of the shot relative to your facing/movement, how you settle and get control vs catch a goalie off guard but deal with less control and accuracy as pros and cons are all in there now.

    When you consider all these details and take them into account in your play, you can take advantage both offensively and defensively and the skill gap to maximize way more variables is arguably even higher.

    However, if you don't consider these things, the game can feel random. Sometimes I don't know if people are serious about this or it just an easy excuse but I chalk it up that we need to continue to do a better job educating our players in the details we put into the game rather than assume just because they are modeled around what we see in the real world, that people will just get it. I know some people still feel that because it is a videogame that we do somehow code 'ways to score' as opposed to it being a balance of a bunch of factors trying to accurately model physical and mental models from the real world sport. That is where people post how they had way higher shot totals and time on attack than their opponent and still lost. There is nothing in the code to say that just because you got a shot in the slot or shot a one timer that you will score. Those things increase your chances at a base level beyond putting a weak backhand on net from the corner but as noted above, there are still a bunch of details inside those chances that need to be considered. If you just deke quick and shoot from the slot, you may catch the goalie off guard but your puck control may have been lowered enough by your puck movement and lack of settling that you shoot wide or into the goalies chest. There is a balance and skill to catch the goalie off guard, limit their reaction and still get a good accurate shot yourself.

    I have already mentioned it before but the overall skill in the community is higher and the matchmaking process is also better. You may not match up against players that are way below your skill level as often anymore like you did in previous years and when you do, that is where you will see 5+ goal differentials or players quitting when they go down by 3 or more within the first period. We can't judge everything by goal margins either to determine if there is a skill gap. Hanging on to a 2 or 3 goal lead is far easier than it was in the past through smart defensive play so winning 4-1 could be just as good as winning 12-2 in the older products. That isn't because we are artificially keeping things close or that we are doing so by design with goal differential in mind at all. The scores are lower because the mechanics are more balanced and the matchmaking by skill is better.

    Are there things we can improve? Most definitely. Are there things that can still be tightened up through tuning even in mechanics that are working fairly well? Almost definitely. But at the end of the day, both players are playing the same game -- the fact that someone people feel that isn;t the case is definitely the biggest myth that has to be dissolved. And if you allow yourself to realize that you could get better at the game yourself rather than blaming the game -- that is your only chance to more victories.

  • flyextacy wrote: »
    Have to agree with kid on this one. The stat line isnt always indicative of how the game went. Similar to real life, hockey has a lot of random variables in which a weaker team any given night can get a win by being persistent and making the most of their opportunities. In online games it's the same way, a weaker team could be getting outplayed but still playing strong enough D to avoid goals and they make the most of their chances in the offensive zone.

    There are silly things that happen sometimes but they often don't decide the game all the time. Save some of your game replays and give it a rewatch. I bet you'll find instances where you missed a chance or played poor d ect ect. People hate losing and always want to blame the game before they take a look at what they did wrong.

    I think you and this other guy are misunderstanding the argument. This isn't a once in a blue moon occurrence. This has been a consistent problem year-in, year-out and I would be willing to say this happens multiple times a week if not at least once a day. You're probably right that in a game where you triple your opponents SOG that all 30 (assuming a game where shots are 30 to 10) shots are not necessarily high quality chances, BUT the 5+ that are there's always a ridiculous save made, player fans on wide open back door banger, etc.

    if you lose a game here and there, where you deserved to win but didn't, cool. It happens in the league all the time. Look back at the Pens vs Preds series two years ago when Preds lost a game where Pens didn't get a single shot on net like the entire 2nd or 3rd period (probably not spot on accuracy but you get my drift).

    The issue here is that those 10 chances the other team gets, they aren't "quality" chances. They are attempts to abuse the loopholes in this video game. For instance - guy enters zone and immediately cuts inside, twirls his stick behind his back in an unfathomable position and takes a wrister, with NO screens in front, from 2 feet inside the blue line. That is not, by any means, a quality scoring opportunity. Another instance - guy enters the zone, you play good D by keeping him to the outside and he puts the breaks on just inside the blue line. Then proceeds to fire a snap shot, standing still, on the ice at the net and the goalie can't handle a muffin and kicks it out to the forward crashing the net, even though you have 2 Dmen in front with great body position.

    Long story short, if I ever lose a game to an opponent who has great puck movement and can get to quality scoring areas at least 25% of his trips down the ice coupled with great D, my hat is off to them. Unfortunately in losses in this game that is rarely the case. No I'm not claiming to be the best chel player in the world, but I am always ranked top 300 in VS mode and usually stretches of games playing against constant abusers is what keeps me out of the top 50 at all times.

    This! This right here 100%!!
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    Some of this narrative is getting a bit old on these boards. We obviously have to do a better job in our education of the mechanics and in some cases have further improvements and tuning to make but the narrative that we do things to keep things close or even worse that it has to somehow do with revenue is very tired.

    Over the years, I have learned that although many people complained about glitch goals that there are a lot of people that liked that as it was more black and white and obvious when people had played the game a lot and could label certain ways to score and understand they were 100 percent success, even if they wouldn't make sense to someone coming to the game with knowledge of the real sport.

    When we broke down what was missing relative to the real world in a lot of these cases, it was a lot of the details (in some cases more or less subtle than others). For example, if a player can just skate through you dragging his stick through your legs and not lose control of the puck, they are going to get into high percentage areas of the ice way more often than they deserve against that opponent. Also, if you can skate one way at full speed and spin and shoot a slapshot to the opposite corner with perfect power and accuracy, the defensive team can't choose ways to defend that limit your best chances to score based on what knowledge they bring form the real world sport. If you can pass on your backhand as strong and as accurate as your forehand or shoot a one timer as good cross body as you can in your wheel house, again, these things make more shots and chances higher percentage and those details don't need to be considered. In those models though, it makes defense a lot different to play where angles and body position mean a lot less and just active contact with the player and puck are the only ways to defend.

    So in those earlier titles, you could pass to a player and shoot a one timer and it didn't matter if they were left or right handed, moving away from the net vs towards it, if the passer sold shot to get the goalie to commit before passing, if the pass itself was on the forehand or backhand, etc., and due to that, more one timers were scored when less thought was taken. On the defensive side, interceptions and deflections of pucks were a lot less consistent, incidental stick and body contact didn't disrupt passes/shots and the list goes on. And that is just relative to one timers. Straight wristshots and slapshots and the details in goalie read and reaction time, angles of the shot relative to your facing/movement, how you settle and get control vs catch a goalie off guard but deal with less control and accuracy as pros and cons are all in there now.

    When you consider all these details and take them into account in your play, you can take advantage both offensively and defensively and the skill gap to maximize way more variables is arguably even higher.

    However, if you don't consider these things, the game can feel random. Sometimes I don't know if people are serious about this or it just an easy excuse but I chalk it up that we need to continue to do a better job educating our players in the details we put into the game rather than assume just because they are modeled around what we see in the real world, that people will just get it. I know some people still feel that because it is a videogame that we do somehow code 'ways to score' as opposed to it being a balance of a bunch of factors trying to accurately model physical and mental models from the real world sport. That is where people post how they had way higher shot totals and time on attack than their opponent and still lost. There is nothing in the code to say that just because you got a shot in the slot or shot a one timer that you will score. Those things increase your chances at a base level beyond putting a weak backhand on net from the corner but as noted above, there are still a bunch of details inside those chances that need to be considered. If you just deke quick and shoot from the slot, you may catch the goalie off guard but your puck control may have been lowered enough by your puck movement and lack of settling that you shoot wide or into the goalies chest. There is a balance and skill to catch the goalie off guard, limit their reaction and still get a good accurate shot yourself.

    I have already mentioned it before but the overall skill in the community is higher and the matchmaking process is also better. You may not match up against players that are way below your skill level as often anymore like you did in previous years and when you do, that is where you will see 5+ goal differentials or players quitting when they go down by 3 or more within the first period. We can't judge everything by goal margins either to determine if there is a skill gap. Hanging on to a 2 or 3 goal lead is far easier than it was in the past through smart defensive play so winning 4-1 could be just as good as winning 12-2 in the older products. That isn't because we are artificially keeping things close or that we are doing so by design with goal differential in mind at all. The scores are lower because the mechanics are more balanced and the matchmaking by skill is better.

    Are there things we can improve? Most definitely. Are there things that can still be tightened up through tuning even in mechanics that are working fairly well? Almost definitely. But at the end of the day, both players are playing the same game -- the fact that someone people feel that isn;t the case is definitely the biggest myth that has to be dissolved. And if you allow yourself to realize that you could get better at the game yourself rather than blaming the game -- that is your only chance to more victories.

    With all due respect, I find it funny that the team with a narrative is calling out a narrative while not exactly hitting the marks for why the community has made these assumptions.

    I'd post all of my gameplay for you, but I'm much to busy to edit it together to show my issues and why the game doesn't feel like it hits the mark, however the variables to make it into a real life representation have not done their job well. Goalies in real life occasionally give up a bad goal. Goalies in real life occasionally give up a good goal off a player with speed. Goalies occasionally make a mistake playing the puck and have to scramble back.

    The movements of the players in the game don't matach a real life sport. Real player motion has helped with that. However the representation we have been given is not on par with the rest of the sports Genre even if you are moving towards a better direction.

    The so called narrative as you call it is built on EA's own press releases and wordings. I don't get how one dev can argue one thing and the manager of the company says something else, specifically when it regards single player games and live services. Having a yearly release cycle makes things difficult, however when something doesn't work change the business model.
  • This isn't trying to say you all don't work hard either, it's arguing that the bar is set to low.
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    Some of this narrative is getting a bit old on these boards. We obviously have to do a better job in our education of the mechanics and in some cases have further improvements and tuning to make but the narrative that we do things to keep things close or even worse that it has to somehow do with revenue is very tired.

    Over the years, I have learned that although many people complained about glitch goals that there are a lot of people that liked that as it was more black and white and obvious when people had played the game a lot and could label certain ways to score and understand they were 100 percent success, even if they wouldn't make sense to someone coming to the game with knowledge of the real sport.

    When we broke down what was missing relative to the real world in a lot of these cases, it was a lot of the details (in some cases more or less subtle than others). For example, if a player can just skate through you dragging his stick through your legs and not lose control of the puck, they are going to get into high percentage areas of the ice way more often than they deserve against that opponent. Also, if you can skate one way at full speed and spin and shoot a slapshot to the opposite corner with perfect power and accuracy, the defensive team can't choose ways to defend that limit your best chances to score based on what knowledge they bring form the real world sport. If you can pass on your backhand as strong and as accurate as your forehand or shoot a one timer as good cross body as you can in your wheel house, again, these things make more shots and chances higher percentage and those details don't need to be considered. In those models though, it makes defense a lot different to play where angles and body position mean a lot less and just active contact with the player and puck are the only ways to defend.

    So in those earlier titles, you could pass to a player and shoot a one timer and it didn't matter if they were left or right handed, moving away from the net vs towards it, if the passer sold shot to get the goalie to commit before passing, if the pass itself was on the forehand or backhand, etc., and due to that, more one timers were scored when less thought was taken. On the defensive side, interceptions and deflections of pucks were a lot less consistent, incidental stick and body contact didn't disrupt passes/shots and the list goes on. And that is just relative to one timers. Straight wristshots and slapshots and the details in goalie read and reaction time, angles of the shot relative to your facing/movement, how you settle and get control vs catch a goalie off guard but deal with less control and accuracy as pros and cons are all in there now.

    When you consider all these details and take them into account in your play, you can take advantage both offensively and defensively and the skill gap to maximize way more variables is arguably even higher.

    However, if you don't consider these things, the game can feel random. Sometimes I don't know if people are serious about this or it just an easy excuse but I chalk it up that we need to continue to do a better job educating our players in the details we put into the game rather than assume just because they are modeled around what we see in the real world, that people will just get it. I know some people still feel that because it is a videogame that we do somehow code 'ways to score' as opposed to it being a balance of a bunch of factors trying to accurately model physical and mental models from the real world sport. That is where people post how they had way higher shot totals and time on attack than their opponent and still lost. There is nothing in the code to say that just because you got a shot in the slot or shot a one timer that you will score. Those things increase your chances at a base level beyond putting a weak backhand on net from the corner but as noted above, there are still a bunch of details inside those chances that need to be considered. If you just deke quick and shoot from the slot, you may catch the goalie off guard but your puck control may have been lowered enough by your puck movement and lack of settling that you shoot wide or into the goalies chest. There is a balance and skill to catch the goalie off guard, limit their reaction and still get a good accurate shot yourself.

    I have already mentioned it before but the overall skill in the community is higher and the matchmaking process is also better. You may not match up against players that are way below your skill level as often anymore like you did in previous years and when you do, that is where you will see 5+ goal differentials or players quitting when they go down by 3 or more within the first period. We can't judge everything by goal margins either to determine if there is a skill gap. Hanging on to a 2 or 3 goal lead is far easier than it was in the past through smart defensive play so winning 4-1 could be just as good as winning 12-2 in the older products. That isn't because we are artificially keeping things close or that we are doing so by design with goal differential in mind at all. The scores are lower because the mechanics are more balanced and the matchmaking by skill is better.

    Are there things we can improve? Most definitely. Are there things that can still be tightened up through tuning even in mechanics that are working fairly well? Almost definitely. But at the end of the day, both players are playing the same game -- the fact that someone people feel that isn;t the case is definitely the biggest myth that has to be dissolved. And if you allow yourself to realize that you could get better at the game yourself rather than blaming the game -- that is your only chance to more victories.

    You start off by mentioning that this narrative is getting old, go on an impressive world play tangeant on the game's current mechanics (which I don't dispute), and end with basically 'git gud' but fail to address the core reason of the thread of teams and players exploiting one move over and over again to gain the advantage. However, I have a very small feeling that in you going off and mentioning all the mechanics that go into how a game plays that the rebound cheese goals are part of the game, are fine, and teams and plays like myself either need to exploit the same way or just play better.

    Got it.
  • GramerProfesur
    549 posts Member
    edited September 2018
    CMBDeadly wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    Some of this narrative is getting a bit old on these boards. We obviously have to do a better job in our education of the mechanics and in some cases have further improvements and tuning to make but the narrative that we do things to keep things close or even worse that it has to somehow do with revenue is very tired.

    Over the years, I have learned that although many people complained about glitch goals that there are a lot of people that liked that as it was more black and white and obvious when people had played the game a lot and could label certain ways to score and understand they were 100 percent success, even if they wouldn't make sense to someone coming to the game with knowledge of the real sport.

    When we broke down what was missing relative to the real world in a lot of these cases, it was a lot of the details (in some cases more or less subtle than others). For example, if a player can just skate through you dragging his stick through your legs and not lose control of the puck, they are going to get into high percentage areas of the ice way more often than they deserve against that opponent. Also, if you can skate one way at full speed and spin and shoot a slapshot to the opposite corner with perfect power and accuracy, the defensive team can't choose ways to defend that limit your best chances to score based on what knowledge they bring form the real world sport. If you can pass on your backhand as strong and as accurate as your forehand or shoot a one timer as good cross body as you can in your wheel house, again, these things make more shots and chances higher percentage and those details don't need to be considered. In those models though, it makes defense a lot different to play where angles and body position mean a lot less and just active contact with the player and puck are the only ways to defend.

    So in those earlier titles, you could pass to a player and shoot a one timer and it didn't matter if they were left or right handed, moving away from the net vs towards it, if the passer sold shot to get the goalie to commit before passing, if the pass itself was on the forehand or backhand, etc., and due to that, more one timers were scored when less thought was taken. On the defensive side, interceptions and deflections of pucks were a lot less consistent, incidental stick and body contact didn't disrupt passes/shots and the list goes on. And that is just relative to one timers. Straight wristshots and slapshots and the details in goalie read and reaction time, angles of the shot relative to your facing/movement, how you settle and get control vs catch a goalie off guard but deal with less control and accuracy as pros and cons are all in there now.

    When you consider all these details and take them into account in your play, you can take advantage both offensively and defensively and the skill gap to maximize way more variables is arguably even higher.

    However, if you don't consider these things, the game can feel random. Sometimes I don't know if people are serious about this or it just an easy excuse but I chalk it up that we need to continue to do a better job educating our players in the details we put into the game rather than assume just because they are modeled around what we see in the real world, that people will just get it. I know some people still feel that because it is a videogame that we do somehow code 'ways to score' as opposed to it being a balance of a bunch of factors trying to accurately model physical and mental models from the real world sport. That is where people post how they had way higher shot totals and time on attack than their opponent and still lost. There is nothing in the code to say that just because you got a shot in the slot or shot a one timer that you will score. Those things increase your chances at a base level beyond putting a weak backhand on net from the corner but as noted above, there are still a bunch of details inside those chances that need to be considered. If you just deke quick and shoot from the slot, you may catch the goalie off guard but your puck control may have been lowered enough by your puck movement and lack of settling that you shoot wide or into the goalies chest. There is a balance and skill to catch the goalie off guard, limit their reaction and still get a good accurate shot yourself.

    I have already mentioned it before but the overall skill in the community is higher and the matchmaking process is also better. You may not match up against players that are way below your skill level as often anymore like you did in previous years and when you do, that is where you will see 5+ goal differentials or players quitting when they go down by 3 or more within the first period. We can't judge everything by goal margins either to determine if there is a skill gap. Hanging on to a 2 or 3 goal lead is far easier than it was in the past through smart defensive play so winning 4-1 could be just as good as winning 12-2 in the older products. That isn't because we are artificially keeping things close or that we are doing so by design with goal differential in mind at all. The scores are lower because the mechanics are more balanced and the matchmaking by skill is better.

    Are there things we can improve? Most definitely. Are there things that can still be tightened up through tuning even in mechanics that are working fairly well? Almost definitely. But at the end of the day, both players are playing the same game -- the fact that someone people feel that isn;t the case is definitely the biggest myth that has to be dissolved. And if you allow yourself to realize that you could get better at the game yourself rather than blaming the game -- that is your only chance to more victories.

    With all due respect, I find it funny that the team with a narrative is calling out a narrative while not exactly hitting the marks for why the community has made these assumptions.

    I'd post all of my gameplay for you, but I'm much to busy to edit it together to show my issues and why the game doesn't feel like it hits the mark, however the variables to make it into a real life representation have not done their job well. Goalies in real life occasionally give up a bad goal. Goalies in real life occasionally give up a good goal off a player with speed. Goalies occasionally make a mistake playing the puck and have to scramble back.

    The movements of the players in the game don't matach a real life sport. Real player motion has helped with that. However the representation we have been given is not on par with the rest of the sports Genre even if you are moving towards a better direction.

    The so called narrative as you call it is built on EA's own press releases and wordings. I don't get how one dev can argue one thing and the manager of the company says something else, specifically when it regards single player games and live services. Having a yearly release cycle makes things difficult, however when something doesn't work change the business model.

    Totally agree, I have way too many examples of bad gameplay to edit and post on the forums but not enough time to do so. Anyone that simply plays the game can see these issues. Goalies, in real life, rarely get "sniped on" without traffic. Most of these "snipes" you see in real life are changing the angle of a shot or forcing a goalie to move laterally and not set up in time, such as a one timer or a quick catch and release. That being said, most of the goals in this game are the opposite. Goalies can get sniped very easily from almost anywhere in the offensive zone. Their lateral ability is excellent (too good, honestly but we will get to that) but their reflexes are terrible.

    The type of goals that usually go in in real life are cross-creases, one timers, deflections, tips, shots that change the angle prior to being released, high slot chances, etc. If you play this way in NHL 19 you WILL LOSE. Guaranteed. Goalie will make the cross-crease or one timer save, deflections and tips are too inaccurate to be used efficiently, they are great at following the puck and getting across the crease, and they are great at stopping high slot chances. The way to score in this game is to have a player with high shooting attributes and skate over the blue line, hold the puck to the side and shoot anywhere. If you're a defenseman with a high slap shot, you can get one through and to the top of the net nearly every time. When was the last time you saw a slapshot from the point go top shelf?

    Goalies are just one example of poor AI in this game. It's useless playing with AI goalies or as a user-controlled defenseman. As a dman, I do my job and take away the cross-crease like I'm supposed to do and let the goalie have the shooter. Bad idea..... the shot goes in. If I try and block the shot, the goalie's poor vision creates a screen and it goes in if I don't get a piece of it. It has nothing to do with the goalie's attributes, that is why you see higher ranked goalies get outplayed badly by lower ranked goalies on a daily basis. There is no incentive to have a higher overall goalie if you play offline or online vs/hut.
  • CMBDeadly wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    Some of this narrative is getting a bit old on these boards. We obviously have to do a better job in our education of the mechanics and in some cases have further improvements and tuning to make but the narrative that we do things to keep things close or even worse that it has to somehow do with revenue is very tired.

    Over the years, I have learned that although many people complained about glitch goals that there are a lot of people that liked that as it was more black and white and obvious when people had played the game a lot and could label certain ways to score and understand they were 100 percent success, even if they wouldn't make sense to someone coming to the game with knowledge of the real sport.

    When we broke down what was missing relative to the real world in a lot of these cases, it was a lot of the details (in some cases more or less subtle than others). For example, if a player can just skate through you dragging his stick through your legs and not lose control of the puck, they are going to get into high percentage areas of the ice way more often than they deserve against that opponent. Also, if you can skate one way at full speed and spin and shoot a slapshot to the opposite corner with perfect power and accuracy, the defensive team can't choose ways to defend that limit your best chances to score based on what knowledge they bring form the real world sport. If you can pass on your backhand as strong and as accurate as your forehand or shoot a one timer as good cross body as you can in your wheel house, again, these things make more shots and chances higher percentage and those details don't need to be considered. In those models though, it makes defense a lot different to play where angles and body position mean a lot less and just active contact with the player and puck are the only ways to defend.

    So in those earlier titles, you could pass to a player and shoot a one timer and it didn't matter if they were left or right handed, moving away from the net vs towards it, if the passer sold shot to get the goalie to commit before passing, if the pass itself was on the forehand or backhand, etc., and due to that, more one timers were scored when less thought was taken. On the defensive side, interceptions and deflections of pucks were a lot less consistent, incidental stick and body contact didn't disrupt passes/shots and the list goes on. And that is just relative to one timers. Straight wristshots and slapshots and the details in goalie read and reaction time, angles of the shot relative to your facing/movement, how you settle and get control vs catch a goalie off guard but deal with less control and accuracy as pros and cons are all in there now.

    When you consider all these details and take them into account in your play, you can take advantage both offensively and defensively and the skill gap to maximize way more variables is arguably even higher.

    However, if you don't consider these things, the game can feel random. Sometimes I don't know if people are serious about this or it just an easy excuse but I chalk it up that we need to continue to do a better job educating our players in the details we put into the game rather than assume just because they are modeled around what we see in the real world, that people will just get it. I know some people still feel that because it is a videogame that we do somehow code 'ways to score' as opposed to it being a balance of a bunch of factors trying to accurately model physical and mental models from the real world sport. That is where people post how they had way higher shot totals and time on attack than their opponent and still lost. There is nothing in the code to say that just because you got a shot in the slot or shot a one timer that you will score. Those things increase your chances at a base level beyond putting a weak backhand on net from the corner but as noted above, there are still a bunch of details inside those chances that need to be considered. If you just deke quick and shoot from the slot, you may catch the goalie off guard but your puck control may have been lowered enough by your puck movement and lack of settling that you shoot wide or into the goalies chest. There is a balance and skill to catch the goalie off guard, limit their reaction and still get a good accurate shot yourself.

    I have already mentioned it before but the overall skill in the community is higher and the matchmaking process is also better. You may not match up against players that are way below your skill level as often anymore like you did in previous years and when you do, that is where you will see 5+ goal differentials or players quitting when they go down by 3 or more within the first period. We can't judge everything by goal margins either to determine if there is a skill gap. Hanging on to a 2 or 3 goal lead is far easier than it was in the past through smart defensive play so winning 4-1 could be just as good as winning 12-2 in the older products. That isn't because we are artificially keeping things close or that we are doing so by design with goal differential in mind at all. The scores are lower because the mechanics are more balanced and the matchmaking by skill is better.

    Are there things we can improve? Most definitely. Are there things that can still be tightened up through tuning even in mechanics that are working fairly well? Almost definitely. But at the end of the day, both players are playing the same game -- the fact that someone people feel that isn;t the case is definitely the biggest myth that has to be dissolved. And if you allow yourself to realize that you could get better at the game yourself rather than blaming the game -- that is your only chance to more victories.

    With all due respect, I find it funny that the team with a narrative is calling out a narrative while not exactly hitting the marks for why the community has made these assumptions.

    I'd post all of my gameplay for you, but I'm much to busy to edit it together to show my issues and why the game doesn't feel like it hits the mark, however the variables to make it into a real life representation have not done their job well. Goalies in real life occasionally give up a bad goal. Goalies in real life occasionally give up a good goal off a player with speed. Goalies occasionally make a mistake playing the puck and have to scramble back.

    The movements of the players in the game don't matach a real life sport. Real player motion has helped with that. However the representation we have been given is not on par with the rest of the sports Genre even if you are moving towards a better direction.

    The so called narrative as you call it is built on EA's own press releases and wordings. I don't get how one dev can argue one thing and the manager of the company says something else, specifically when it regards single player games and live services. Having a yearly release cycle makes things difficult, however when something doesn't work change the business model.

    Totally agree, I have way too many examples of bad gameplay to edit and post on the forums but not enough time to do so. Anyone that simply plays the game can see these issues. Goalies, in real life, rarely get "sniped on" without traffic. Most of these "snipes" you see in real life are changing the angle of a shot or forcing a goalie to move laterally and not set up in time, such as a one timer or a quick catch and release. That being said, most of the goals in this game are the opposite. Goalies can get sniped very easily from almost anywhere in the offensive zone. Their lateral ability is excellent (too good, honestly but we will get to that) but their reflexes are terrible.

    The type of goals that usually go in in real life are cross-creases, one timers, deflections, tips, shots that change the angle prior to being released, high slot chances, etc. If you play this way in NHL 19 you WILL LOSE. Guaranteed. Goalie will make the cross-crease or one timer save, deflections and tips are too inaccurate to be used efficiently, they are great at following the puck and getting across the crease, and they are great at stopping high slot chances. The way to score in this game is to have a player with high shooting attributes and skate over the blue line, hold the puck to the side and shoot anywhere. If you're a defenseman with a high slap shot, you can get one through and to the top of the net nearly every time. When was the last time you saw a slapshot from the point go top shelf?

    Goalies are just one example of poor AI in this game. It's useless playing with AI goalies or as a user-controlled defenseman. As a dman, I do my job and take away the cross-crease like I'm supposed to do and let the goalie have the shooter. Bad idea..... the shot goes in. If I try and block the shot, the goalie's poor vision creates a screen and it goes in if I don't get a piece of it. It has nothing to do with the goalie's attributes, that is why you see higher ranked goalies get outplayed badly by lower ranked goalies on a daily basis. There is no incentive to have a higher overall goalie if you play offline or online vs/hut.

    Exactly my favorite goals in the NHL in real life are when a goalie is playing fantastic hockey and it squirts through a gap in their padding that they weren't able to close, or a guy coming in off the rush and snipong top corner because the rest of the field was fighting their position and let a guy streak. Both happen almost never in the game even though they are prevalant in the NhL
  • My argument is make EASHL a standalone mode with it's own rocket league indpired physics engine where you have to make the play using the stick to angle it like in a Tiger woods game of old. Make every position a more dynamic feel instead of scripting animations. We would be allowed to adapt and learn like others say because the players create the skill gap not the game.
  • I had a game we’re my club outplayed the other team 3 to 1 and couldn’t score because of an invisible wall that stopped the puck from going in. Here’s the clip of it

    https://xboxdvr.com/gamer/epicxowned/video/60555036

  • How many times can a person exploit the same thing over and over before you adjust?

    I'm very aware of the shots forwards will have the most success on.

    These are the people I pity, are they good at getting to their spot? Yes. But they will try and get to their spot basically no matter what, time and time again. The good ones at least have 3 different ways to consistently score, but it's such am eye sore of how bad players are. Talk about 0 hockey knowledge.

    Oh what a bore as a defender it is to defend these type of "glitch" Players. And yet, I get quite a chuckle everytime. I know where they are going everytime they touch the puck and either beat them to the spot, or wait for them to come to me becuase I'm covering the area they want to get to.

    I play this game. The very same game you play. I get rewarded consistently. How can this be?

    Please. Feel free to invite me to. A match and I can show you how I play. Or better yet, go to your recent players. One who beat you guys. Tell them to add me. Bmessersmith5 on Xbox One. I would love to play against them. And I would love to shut out the people who are giving you trouble.

    Just to show you. This game isn't as Unrewarding as you think.
  • Say for example. Playing goalie. Make every gap five hole 7 hole and everythig else real time dynamic movements by the goalie instead of it being an animation. You cover your 5 and 7 you leave top shelf more viable an option. Just little things that would make this an okay game like I've said into a fantastic one.
  • EpiCxOwNeD wrote: »
    I had a game we’re my club outplayed the other team 3 to 1 and couldn’t score because of an invisible wall that stopped the puck from going in. Here’s the clip of it

    https://xboxdvr.com/gamer/epicxowned/video/60555036

    I already used your example earlier in the thread, Epic, Lol. Scroll up and look at the answers to it. According to people in this thread, we're passing too much and taking a crap load of low quality shots. Apparently, that's what dominating means to some people.
  • majjama_26 wrote: »
    EpiCxOwNeD wrote: »
    I had a game we’re my club outplayed the other team 3 to 1 and couldn’t score because of an invisible wall that stopped the puck from going in. Here’s the clip of it

    https://xboxdvr.com/gamer/epicxowned/video/60555036

    I already used your example earlier in the thread, Epic, Lol. Scroll up and look at the answers to it. According to people in this thread, we're passing too much and taking a crap load of low quality shots. Apparently, that's what dominating means to some people.

    I don’t know what “too much passing” is. Especially in the offensive zone when your trying to get better scoring chances and on top of that out shooting the other team 3 to 1. We weren’t taking low quality shots either. Goalies in this game can stop back door saves no problem but can’t stop some weak, unscreened garbage from far out or cheese rebounds.
  • sgiz1
    537 posts Member
    edited September 2018
    EA DEV

    "So in those earlier titles, you could pass to a player and shoot a one timer and it didn't matter if they were left or right handed, moving away from the net vs towards it, if the passer sold shot to get the goalie to commit before passing, if the pass itself was on the forehand or backhand, etc., and due to that, more one timers were scored when less thought was taken. On the defensive side, interceptions and deflections of pucks were a lot less consistent, incidental stick and body contact didn't disrupt passes/shots and the list goes on. And that is just relative to one timers. Straight wristshots and slapshots and the details in goalie read and reaction time, angles of the shot relative to your facing/movement, how you settle and get control vs catch a goalie off guard but deal with less control and accuracy as pros and cons are all in there now."

    Not denying any of this, but I will remind you and point out NHL 08 thru NHL12 were the highlight years, most fun, best era, most competitive titles in the series.

    Adding in all the complex layers of reality ruined the fun of the game, not saying it's not more challenging or more realistic, but club, LG/VHL, etc. back in the day died off quickly in NHL 13 and has only been a shell of it's former glory days ever since.

    It would be nice for this series to take a step back once in a while to recognize what worked when the game had its most cult following, the 08 thru 12 era, and do that more.
  • KidShowtime1867
    1612 posts Member
    edited September 2018
    EpiCxOwNeD wrote: »
    I had a game we’re my club outplayed the other team 3 to 1 and couldn’t score because of an invisible wall that stopped the puck from going in. Here’s the clip of it

    https://xboxdvr.com/gamer/epicxowned/video/60555036

    Again, this is one instance.

    Did this invisible wall happen to you a number of times, consistently over a large number of games?

    No, it didn't. It was a bug - it happens.

    To claim that it is somehow coded in to the game to make the games more competitive - it's a ridiculous and dangerous narrative to push about a game that prides itself on being an organic, competitive experience.

    Having someone come in here and claim this and that about how the game is purposely refusing goals is bloody ridiculous.

    There's clearly a skill gap here with those claiming that the game is methodically altering gameplay in order to keep games close at the far end of the spectrum.

    There's a lack of skill from those players - or an outright refusal to admit a lack of knowledge surrounding the nuances of a 'good' scoring chance.

  • "There's clearly a skill gap here with those claiming that the game is methodically altering gameplay in order to keep games close at the far end of the spectrum."

    If it were noobs claiming this I would agree with you, but you need to put away the condescending rhetoric and accept this is a real thing.

    Sure I can go on a tirade about how I've been playing hockey games since blades of steel, but lets skip thru the decades to 08 thru 12, the best era of this series by far.... the introduction of EASHL/club, skill mattered, if a team was mismatched they wouldn't just lose, they would get pounded, not just once, but every single time. Score would be 16-2, 11-0, 14-4, etc. The skill gap was at play, skill and consistency was rewarded back then.

    Since NHL 13, games have gotten tighter and tigher, skill still mattered more, but mismatches were now turning into 2-2 grinds late into the 3rd period where the skilled team would still pull most of the wins out, but more and more upsets were taking place.

    The game turned into chaos which helped the lesser skilled players compete using dirty goals, random shots, deflections, rebounds, etc. instead of cycling for back door tic tac toe one timers, etc.

    It is a fact, games today are closer more often than in the old days, and it's not because everyones skills have improved, it's because the game programmed to keep things competitive.

    Let me be clear, skill will still win the overwhelming majority of the time, but skill will be frustrated almost every game as high quality shots don't get rewarded like they should and dirty goals are more common.

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