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Defensive intercepts are inconsistent

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  • NHLDev
    1335 posts NHL Developer
    edited September 2018
    SpillGal wrote: »
    I agree strongly with OP that the interceptions still are very inconsistent.
    I am sorry the following clips are from HUT, but I hope this basic gameplay mechanic is the same across all modes?

    I'm trying to avoid bringing up once off bugs, these things happen quite often.
    They are rampant in HUT, which is why I'm done with that mode for a while, but also in Vs.
    All clips are from games on green connection.

    I really appreciate NHLDev's inputs and are trying to put into practice the plays he suggest.
    The ideas he's explaining and the reasons behind those, all seem to make a lot of sense. It's only that they doesn't make it through to us end users.
    Sum of these clips is everyday, easy, well directed passes are punished, while bad passes straight to an opponent is rewarded. It's not always like this, but just as OP said it's inconsistent

    Thanks for posting the clips. I understand that things feel inconsistent to you but overall, it just seems that you may not agree with the tuning. That is of course unless you are seeing the same player over and over again sometimes receive the same pass that they other times miss.

    Remember that there are multiple factors that go into the interceptions. Reaction time is the biggest one and is factored against the players individual attributes and the action they are doing/the angle the puck travels towards/by them relative to their facing.

    In the first example, it is possible that a player with even better attributes does at least get a piece of that puck and may even intercept it but in general, it isn't necessarily an easy interception. This series of clips is good to look at as defensive players are in the vicinity a lot in these clips and reaction time, with all the angles they need to consider, stops them from breaking up the play a lot of the time:


    The second clip you posted, your player despite very little reaction time, still did try and play a skate pickup but just didn't fully get it clean and it bobbled through. A couple more feet or a player with even better attributes and that play is possibly made.

    For the cross crease that went through, I am not sure from that distance if there was some sauce on that pass or not but it does look like the pass went through close to your players skate and receptions in tight like that are harder than ones out near your stick blade. Rule of thumb for me in a passing lane would be to be more than half the distance of the pass. Anything closer but not close enough to make a stick check on the puck carrier, sort of feels like no mans land. Definitely the closest one of the bunch though and wold maybe benefit by going into actual pass block in that case to be sure you aren't relying on reaction time along to make the play.

    For the last one, because you switched into the player on the other side, I think it was the game deciding that you actually meant to pass to the other player (must have just been that much closer to the angle you passed to relative to the two players speeds or something -- not saying that it's right). This is something I want to improve for sure. When there are two players in line, it should commonly pick the near player (especially at the default pass speed with no charge on it) and force you to do a manual saucer pass if you want the further player or something.

    So it is possible that we could tune our overall interception reaction time factor to be a bit more forgiving and maybe you would personally like it more but it is a fine line in getting solid player differentiation as well. The more we lower that threshold, the more all players start to feel the same. There are also players out there that feel defense is too strong when it comes to intercepting pucks still. In general, it is a common theme in the view of the game actually -- players say attributes mean nothing and then when it comes to mechanics of players missing the net, poking off target, missing interceptions, etc. the mechanics of the game get called inconsistent. We get the luxury of seeing things from the birds eye view when playing but the mechanics are still tuned for the reaction time and physicality from the perspective of those players on ice.
  • After playing more games, and understanding the mechanic, due to excellent post explained by Ben I would prefer it stay exactly as is
  • I don't mind intercepts. They're obviously part of the game. What I do mind are the very clean intercepts off laser fast passes. If a player tries to tap the button for a slow pass to a close teammate and it gets intercepted, then that's great. Realistic and predictable. If a player is trying for a stretch pass and the intercepting player is near the pass recipient and clean intercepts, that's fine too. Seeing and reading plays are a thumbs up for me. What I don't like are close range/mid-range, laser pass intercepts. I, in the least, except the puck to bounce off a stick or body that's in the way off those fast ones. That would be ideal. That way, instead of just clean intercepts with immediate turnovers, players are forced to fight for the lose puck more.
  • EpiCxOwNeD wrote: »
    Here’s another one.

    https://xboxdvr.com/gamer/epicxowned/video/61104263

    Up by one goal in the dying seconds of the third period. Good positioning and still gets by me and the AI. Goalie made the save though and if he didn’t I’d be furious.

    So I’ve played NHL competitively through LGPS and LG ESHL since 09 and somewhere along the way I noticed that puck interceptions happen WAY more often when you’re gliding and not holding “LT”. I can’t remember what year it started being like that but if you’re struggling to pick passes off, use LT to feather into position and then let go and glide when you anticipate the pass is coming.

    For the record, I’ve never had more fun playing 6s Defense than 19. Unfortunately I don’t have enough time to commit to LG and set time schedules anymore because I seriously love defense in this game.

    Hope my tip helps!
  • sgiz1
    535 posts Member
    Yes and no,

    Passes get thru defenders, right under them, at a high success rate.

    Then on the flip side

    Passes thru open lanes are getting intercepted at a high success rate.

    Its backwards from where it should be, passes thru the lanes shouldn't get intercepted and passes thru defenders should.
  • NHLDev
    1335 posts NHL Developer
    edited October 2018
    sgiz1 wrote: »
    Yes and no,

    Passes get thru defenders, right under them, at a high success rate.

    Then on the flip side

    Passes thru open lanes are getting intercepted at a high success rate.

    Its backwards from where it should be, passes thru the lanes shouldn't get intercepted and passes thru defenders should.

    Can you qualify this a bit more? If they are getting intercepted, then it isn’t an “open lane”. Are you saying you want to see more interceptions with skates than with sticks? It may be that subjectively you don’t agree with the tuning around how reaction time works based on the physical factors that weigh into it as well.

    Players look for spots to pass by and through defenders all the time that would be awkward for them to quickly get their stick to (i.e. right behind them or anywhere they would be jammed up to get their stick to). It comes down to reaction time of how much they need to move their stick and where to.

    You could pass right beside a player but to the opposite side they have their stick out to or you could pass a couple inches beyond where their stick is and the first may look “right through the player” and the second may look “like an open lane” but reaching a couple inches to deflect that puck or intercept it vs having to move your body weight against where you are leaning to get a skate on it or move your stick all the way over to the other side (not even considering right tight to your body on your backhand side could be an awkward pickup spot) could actually be harder.

    Make sure you are looking at those details when assessing things and definitely consider the reaction time and the players involved (due to attributes weighting in) when you are assessing their interception success.
  • sgiz1 wrote: »
    Yes and no,

    Passes get thru defenders, right under them, at a high success rate.

    Then on the flip side

    Passes thru open lanes are getting intercepted at a high success rate.

    Its backwards from where it should be, passes thru the lanes shouldn't get intercepted and passes thru defenders should.

    ^ This.
    YouTube: VeNOM3099
    Twitch: twitch.tv/venom3099

  • sgiz1
    535 posts Member
    edited October 2018
    Point is EA has been penalizing passing which deters teamwork. Its getting harder and harder to work the puck around and thru defenses each year which promotes less passing, more shots, and more dekes, basically more one man show type play and teammates are only there for rebounds instead of getting active in cycles and back door one timers.

    Open lanes argument is there is daylight space between puck and intended target and defenders sticks are reaching into the open lane to intercept "not by defender wanting to, but by EA animations auto intercept" just doing the work. This is shutting down open lanes by EA programming animations, atleast put in a manual to make defenders push a button to intercept, etc.

    So what ends up happening is just forcing passes thru defenders which tends to be more successful than open lane passing.

    And don't even get me started on overpowered fore checker ability to stop or intercept passes even slap passes or dump passes.

    Yet while allowing called stretch passes get thru with ease???

    Very inconsistent.
  • sgiz1 wrote: »
    Point is EA has been penalizing passing which deters teamwork. Its getting harder and harder to work the puck around and thru defenses each year which promotes less passing, more shots, and more dekes, basically more one man show type play and teammates are only there for rebounds instead of getting active in cycles and back door one timers.

    Open lanes argument is there is daylight space between puck and intended target and defenders sticks are reaching into the open lane to intercept "not by defender wanting to, but by EA animations auto intercept" just doing the work. This is shutting down open lanes by EA programming animations, atleast put in a manual to make defenders push a button to intercept, etc.

    So what ends up happening is just forcing passes thru defenders which tends to be more successful than open lane passing.

    And don't even get me started on overpowered fore checker ability to stop or intercept passes even slap passes or dump passes.

    Yet while allowing called stretch passes get thru with ease???

    Very inconsistent.

    What lanes are you seeing that you want to be open or exposed? A lot of hockey is about taking what’s given to you and and working the puck around, taking some perimeter shots to open the defense up, and capitalizing on the few openings you get.

    I think users just don’t play this game correctly to the way the tools are set. I never see short-side one-timers from a pass that originated behind the net, I never drop passes to a quick shot like in real life. As a D, all I see are people that want to make 40-60 foot cross-rink passes for one-timers rather than setting up some quick-hitting plays and quick shots. Playing defense this year is easy because everyone is so predictable.

    I’d like to see human goalies get a revamp, be able to actually move efficiently, then have them start being punished for playing deep by giving up goals that always seem to find holes from not taking the angles away.

    This would lead to much more realistic gameplay online, but until people start doing more creative plays than cross-crease passes, I really don’t see a need to have interceptions needed.
  • EpiCxOwNeD wrote: »
    As anyone else been in a good position, reading the play, just for the puck to go right through and onto the receivers’ stick?

    https://xboxdvr.com/gamer/epicxowned/video/60595995

    Here in the first clip, I noticed the the back door opportunity and thought I was in good enough position to intercept the pass. Also I was a defensive d man with hockey IQ 2 on and it’s like my guy never recognized the puck coming.

    https://xboxdvr.com/gamer/epicxowned/video/60810316

    Ones not enough but how about two players unable to pick off the pass. Best thing about both of these clips is they were both OT winners. Has anyone else had inconsistency about picking off passes?



    https://xboxdvr.com/gamer/epicxowned/video/60555036

    Just had to throw this one in. Nothing to do with the subject but come on.

    This may just be the biggest reason why I am a big fan of the poke check and manual input over auto-animations for defense.

    In NHL 10-11-12 I used to stop most of those passes by poking towards the guy with the puck in the passing lane and managed to very consistently, and more importantly, fully in my control, deflect those type of passes away from a dangerous one timer. I cannot stand just sitting there and not touching anything and let automatic animations do the work. I feel powerless and it is frankly skilless and boring.

    But am I wrong to think that this should no longer be an issue in EASHL at least if you use DSS to block the passing lane and deflect the passes? I think if anything, DSS should be the answer we always needed on that front. Is it still a thing to sit there and let auto-animations do the work for you?

  • kezz123 wrote: »
    EpiCxOwNeD wrote: »
    As anyone else been in a good position, reading the play, just for the puck to go right through and onto the receivers’ stick?

    https://xboxdvr.com/gamer/epicxowned/video/60595995

    Here in the first clip, I noticed the the back door opportunity and thought I was in good enough position to intercept the pass. Also I was a defensive d man with hockey IQ 2 on and it’s like my guy never recognized the puck coming.

    https://xboxdvr.com/gamer/epicxowned/video/60810316

    Ones not enough but how about two players unable to pick off the pass. Best thing about both of these clips is they were both OT winners. Has anyone else had inconsistency about picking off passes?



    https://xboxdvr.com/gamer/epicxowned/video/60555036

    Just had to throw this one in. Nothing to do with the subject but come on.

    This may just be the biggest reason why I am a big fan of the poke check and manual input over auto-animations for defense.

    In NHL 10-11-12 I used to stop most of those passes by poking towards the guy with the puck in the passing lane and managed to very consistently, and more importantly, fully in my control, deflect those type of passes away from a dangerous one timer. I cannot stand just sitting there and not touching anything and let automatic animations do the work. I feel powerless and it is frankly skilless and boring.

    But am I wrong to think that this should no longer be an issue in EASHL at least if you use DSS to block the passing lane and deflect the passes? I think if anything, DSS should be the answer we always needed on that front. Is it still a thing to sit there and let auto-animations do the work for you?

    I think they could go the 2k route and incorporate DSS with the auto-animations. You have to have DDS engaged to get an auto animation, then based on the Def Awareness attribute and your relative position, it would determine if you intercept the pass or not.

    Like I said before though, humans in this game are way too predictable. Such a lack of quick shots and give-n-gos make defense extremely easy. Having more forced passes go through isn’t the answer imo, but possibly adding a little more human control over the interception success wouldn’t hurt.
  • kezz123 wrote: »
    But am I wrong to think that this should no longer be an issue in EASHL at least if you use DSS to block the passing lane and deflect the passes? I think if anything, DSS should be the answer we always needed on that front. Is it still a thing to sit there and let auto-animations do the work for you?

    Yes, but DSS has its share of problems. Namely players who are faster than you will often recognize you have your stick extended and try to skate through causing a tripping. I've had a few times where I'm just holding the stick out, with what I think is enough space, trying to prevent the player from skating over to the middle, and he'll do it anyways and get tripped. Now I'm on the PK.

    It also happens a lot on DSS activation which starts off as a poke. But in those instances, it's mostly on me as I try to activate it while much to close to the opposing player.

    Using the DSS to deflect passes isn't easy (thankfully), but as someone else showed on the forums, sometimes you think you have the lane blocked and the stick will "move" by itself trying to "track" the pass. Very annoying.
    YouTube: VeNOM3099
    Twitch: twitch.tv/venom3099

  • VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    kezz123 wrote: »
    But am I wrong to think that this should no longer be an issue in EASHL at least if you use DSS to block the passing lane and deflect the passes? I think if anything, DSS should be the answer we always needed on that front. Is it still a thing to sit there and let auto-animations do the work for you?

    Yes, but DSS has its share of problems. Namely players who are faster than you will often recognize you have your stick extended and try to skate through causing a tripping. I've had a few times where I'm just holding the stick out, with what I think is enough space, trying to prevent the player from skating over to the middle, and he'll do it anyways and get tripped. Now I'm on the PK.

    It also happens a lot on DSS activation which starts off as a poke. But in those instances, it's mostly on me as I try to activate it while much to close to the opposing player.

    Using the DSS to deflect passes isn't easy (thankfully), but as someone else showed on the forums, sometimes you think you have the lane blocked and the stick will "move" by itself trying to "track" the pass. Very annoying.

    ugh
  • sgiz1 wrote: »
    Point is EA has been penalizing passing which deters teamwork. Its getting harder and harder to work the puck around and thru defenses each year which promotes less passing, more shots, and more dekes, basically more one man show type play and teammates are only there for rebounds instead of getting active in cycles and back door one timers.

    Open lanes argument is there is daylight space between puck and intended target and defenders sticks are reaching into the open lane to intercept "not by defender wanting to, but by EA animations auto intercept" just doing the work. This is shutting down open lanes by EA programming animations, atleast put in a manual to make defenders push a button to intercept, etc.

    So what ends up happening is just forcing passes thru defenders which tends to be more successful than open lane passing.

    And don't even get me started on overpowered fore checker ability to stop or intercept passes even slap passes or dump passes.

    Yet while allowing called stretch passes get thru with ease???

    Very inconsistent.

    What lanes are you seeing that you want to be open or exposed? A lot of hockey is about taking what’s given to you and and working the puck around, taking some perimeter shots to open the defense up, and capitalizing on the few openings you get.

    I think users just don’t play this game correctly to the way the tools are set. I never see short-side one-timers from a pass that originated behind the net, I never drop passes to a quick shot like in real life. As a D, all I see are people that want to make 40-60 foot cross-rink passes for one-timers rather than setting up some quick-hitting plays and quick shots. Playing defense this year is easy because everyone is so predictable.

    I’d like to see human goalies get a revamp, be able to actually move efficiently, then have them start being punished for playing deep by giving up goals that always seem to find holes from not taking the angles away.

    This would lead to much more realistic gameplay online, but until people start doing more creative plays than cross-crease passes, I really don’t see a need to have interceptions needed.

    I've been saying for years they need to lower shot accuracy and goalie reaction times. It creates realistic rebounds, shots in good areas go in IF the shot is accurate, and goalies can't sit on the line like they all do in this game. They get beat by harder shots like a slapper.

    You will see more variation in goals.
  • VeNOM2099
    2527 posts Member
    edited October 2018
    Still I love using the DSS almost exclusively on defense. I just have to learn how to use it sparingly to control spacing and opponent positioning rather than just "leave it out there". I also feel like having the DSS active kind of lowers your mobility somewhat ( @NHLDev can maybe confirm this?).

    Very few times have I had the DSS cause a penalty, but many were on me. Very, very few were what I'd call questionable.
    I've been saying for years they need to lower shot accuracy and goalie reaction times. It creates realistic rebounds, shots in good areas go in IF the shot is accurate, and goalies can't sit on the line like they all do in this game. They get beat by harder shots like a slapper.

    You will see more variation in goals.

    I think they need to review their online presets. Especially where the goalie screen effect and persistence are concerned. On preset 3 (Competitive) I believe the settings are 45 for EFFECT and 60 for PERSISTENCE. It should be more like 65 for EFFECT (if a goalie is screened, he can't see the puck well) and 35 for PERSISTENCE (if the goalie is no longer screened he should pick up the puck quickly).

    The other aspect that needs a little tweaking for goalies (both human and AI) is that speed should have a greater effect on save animations as right now there isn't much difference between an 84 and an 88 speed goalie. I would also like to know if a new attribute for save range can be added with some new traits and specialties that could allow you to customize it. Being a smaller goalie I would like to have slightly greater save range that could (in theory) negatively affect say... my reflexes.

    Shot accuracy is fine now, IMO. It's shots from bullet passes that turn into 150 Mph howitzer canons that always go perfectly top corner that need a little nerfing. If those passes can't be less accurate, then the shots damn well should be.
    YouTube: VeNOM3099
    Twitch: twitch.tv/venom3099

  • sgiz1
    535 posts Member
    edited October 2018
    "I think users just don’t play this game correctly to the way the tools are set"

    This is another way of saying the same thing I am saying.

    That is what I am arguing about, the way the game is set to play promotes less teamwork and passing, and instead get more shots on net to get defenders scrambling out of position and out of the chaos score the goal, etc.

    The days when this game was it's most fun was when you could work the puck around and connect on a tic tac toe backdoor one timer goal. That was teamwork, the game rewarded using teammates to set up plays and high quality shots. The game today isn't like that anymore, and its a shame.

    Sure, one could adjust and throw pucks on net and play rebound chaos all game long, very unsatisfying way to play in my opinion, I prefer control, patience, and setting beautiful back door plays, etc. Good old fashion cycling and top notch teamwork, which was rewarded back in the glory days of this game 09 thru 12.

    Trying to play today's game with 09 thru 12 style will get you 12 min. TOA with 20+ high quality shots, but very little to show for it on the scoreboard, as I've pointed out in another post, I've only played 6 HUT games with the basic pack/team, I am 6-0 but four of those wins was a grind winning two last minute and the other two in overtime but the one thing consistent was I would have over double the shots and double TOA over my opponent yet they were in the game and could have easily beat me. It's such a stressful grind that even in victory I find myself not playing another game, just one and done for the night. To put in perspective, my style play would yield 15-2 victories in NHL 12 for example, that same style today is a 2-2 grind to the end almost every single game.
  • VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    Still I love using the DSS almost exclusively on defense. I just have to learn how to use it sparingly to control spacing and opponent positioning rather than just "leave it out there". I also feel like having the DSS active kind of lowers your mobility somewhat ( @NHLDev can maybe confirm this?).

    Very few times have I had the DSS cause a penalty, but many were on me. Very, very few were what I'd call questionable.

    You are correct, you have a limitation on your top skating ability when in DSS.

    To your comment earlier about players skating in and drawing trips... If you get stick or puck first, it won't be a penalty. Also, if you catch that they are protecting the puck and you are going to get leg first, you can retract your stick right away as we don't call penalties during contact of the stick during the blend out of the action.

    Sometimes I will even poke out and then use the right stick to move the stick away from the player once I read that I was wrong in what they were going to do next before I let it blend out just to be sure I keep it away from their legs/skates.
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    Still I love using the DSS almost exclusively on defense. I just have to learn how to use it sparingly to control spacing and opponent positioning rather than just "leave it out there". I also feel like having the DSS active kind of lowers your mobility somewhat ( @NHLDev can maybe confirm this?).

    Very few times have I had the DSS cause a penalty, but many were on me. Very, very few were what I'd call questionable.

    You are correct, you have a limitation on your top skating ability when in DSS.

    To your comment earlier about players skating in and drawing trips... If you get stick or puck first, it won't be a penalty. Also, if you catch that they are protecting the puck and you are going to get leg first, you can retract your stick right away as we don't call penalties during contact of the stick during the blend out of the action.

    Sometimes I will even poke out and then use the right stick to move the stick away from the player once I read that I was wrong in what they were going to do next before I let it blend out just to be sure I keep it away from their legs/skates.

    Yeah, that's what I'm working on now. The fine line being when to recognize when you can force the player to respect your stick and when you can't. And sometimes you try to push it to the breaking point hoping you catch puck before you catch their legs. But thems the breaks, I guess.
    YouTube: VeNOM3099
    Twitch: twitch.tv/venom3099

  • VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    Yeah, that's what I'm working on now. The fine line being when to recognize when you can force the player to respect your stick and when you can't. And sometimes you try to push it to the breaking point hoping you catch puck before you catch their legs. But thems the breaks, I guess.

    Ya, the main thing is how aggressive you need to be. At some point if they are protecting the puck, they are slower and you can regain better body position (assuming you don't have it already) or if they are trying to get somewhere, they are going to need to expose the puck so you can keep you stick in that lane and don't necessarily have to reach in. And if they beat, you, well, they beat you and there isn't much a defender can do at that point in real life or our game unless the offensive player exposes their stick/puck.
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    Thanks for posting the clips. I understand that things feel inconsistent to you but overall, it just seems that you may not agree with the tuning. That is of course unless you are seeing the same player over and over again sometimes receive the same pass that they other times miss.
    It's been a while since you posted this feedback, but I had to digest what you said and then try it out a bit in game.
    In one way, I think you're right that I don't agree with the tuning. I would like to see players able to stop what goes through their area better.
    Of course, if you pass it on the opposite side of where they have their stick, that's open land and it should go through. But from a distance, right by their skates? Or where all they would need to do is adjust the placement of their stick a bit? It's those kinds of play that bothers me.

    As I said, I've had enough of HUT for a while o:) Here's from Vs:

    That pass is opposite side of stick on my D - fine! But then, straight through my C stick.
    For some reason, that center doesn't care where the puck is, thus allowing that incredible, through the zone, pass.

    Here's another one:

    Again AI with his back to the play, but now he's lightning fast to turn and stop that pass. I think this hurts the eyes extra because what would be natural for him is to scramble back to cover that RW of mine.

    And that sort of repeats. AI with incredible backcheck:


    AI with a pass intercept, not too far from one I earlier showed you:


    AI skateblock:


    After looking closer into this, it seems that what I took as inconsistency is just AI being incredibily fast, executing their interceptions perfect. While a human player in the same position will have a much harder time making the right play.
    I think it would be wise to tune down their reaction speed a bit. Think 'cause I'm uncertain of the side effects it could give.

    Also thanks for posting a bunch of nice plays from NHL, and in another thread, a bunch from this game.
    Personally, I'm struggling with that double cross crease:








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