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And just like that...the optimism faded

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  • NHLDev
    1669 posts EA NHL Developer
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »

    Thanks for answering. I'll try to be brief.

    I had many more of them. But my allotted space was getting rather full of clips. The issue (for me anyways) isn't so much that stick lifting cause more penalties (they should) but that the skating is mostly of the "weaving back and forth" variety which leads to many unnecessary calls. We've had this talk before, about lateral acceleration being one of the highest cause for gameplay issues from users. This is one more of them to add to the pile. Perhaps it's finally time to lower it in the next tuner and see how that affects gameplay?

    Offfensive and Defensive players have the same skating ability this year with puck carriers having a 'with puck' penalty. That is why we put everything under the motion model and removed pieces like the old 45 degree cuts in favor of glide exits that were accurately within the skate models ability. Players are constantly asking for us to remove the 'with puck' penalty to skating which is there for that exact reason. Players shouldn't be as quick and agile with the puck as players are without it and that is already part of the game.

    I don't disagree that our players are currently more responsive than real life when it comes to our online settings but as you can see from these boards, others will tell you that players are turning like trucks still. All mechanics on the offensive and defensive side of the puck are tuned with all those factors in mind though.

    It wasn't poke check, it was a DSS attempt. I was actually just trying to hold out my stick in one direction (the puck's) and hope it was at least going to disrupt the pass attempt. What I wasn't expecting was for the stick to veer away like that. I didn't sweep the stick. Nor did I change my skater's direction as I was homing in on the player with the puck. To tell you the truth when I saw it happen live, I was thinking that the stick phased through the ice and I was going to be a lot more LIVID than I was. LOL!

    Yep, understood. However, the original DSS location is where a poke would target and you have manual control with your right stick if you want to override. So the original DSS location would still target where the puck was going when you pressed it and won't update if the puck changes direction after that. This is actually a good thing when penalties are concerned -- it means you can poke at a puck that is exposed to you without worry that the 'auto update' will then drag through skates if the player then pulls the puck away after you initiate the poke which means you will just miss to open space rather than "get help" dragging your stick through a players legs causing a trip. Your player turning would partly be because the upper body tries to face the puck and then the stick will stay in a place that is the closest to what you are asking for that is still physically possible. He definitely got turned around with that happening in that case though. That logic works fairly well when you keep the puck in front of you though.
    As I said during the highlight; I wasn't expecting every scoring chance to be a goal. Sometimes the goalie CAN make a save on even the best shot or setup. I'm ok with that. My issue came with the fact that a simple shot from very far away, goalie unscreened, has almost just as much of a chance of beating the goalie than one of those scoring chances. It turns the game from something requiring knowledge and skill to absolute chaos where every player just b-lines it directly to the puck handler, mashing poke check, stick lift, big hit, whatever works to usurp the puck because GOD FORGIVE if you give your opponent a chance to shoot on the net! The user shouldn't be praying that every little shot directed at their goalie might be a goal.

    That's what creates so much animosity from the user base. Hockey is simply a sport where you try to limit the chances to score and you funnel the play to allow your goalie to stop the easy shots. This game is more about limiting ANY type of shot good or bad. There are thousands of players better than me, but they all experience the same thing, the same amount of stress in their game against random opponents because anything WILL happen. And it doesn't matter that they're more skilled, or they know all the best ways to score, or they have the best players on their team.

    I don't want to win all my games. I just want to play HOCKEY. Something I could do early on in the game's life. Now even playing against someone like my opponent in that highlight, an average player with little hockey knowledge or skill at the game. It's a nerve wracking experience. It's an unsatisfying experience because I couldn't play hockey. I just did whatever and I won.

    I definitely don't agree with that. In a one goal game as time is winding down, sure any shot becomes more dangerous but in most cases if they don't get a good chance they aren't scoring (and that is why I do like seeing videos that people post where we can make improvements to exceptions to that). There is a reason skill zone was/is such a hot topic. Players would give people shots from the perimeter all day and unless you got a shot with a screen, you weren't going to have a high chance to score. Players wanted to limit chances from the slot and one timers as the most dangerous chances. I really don't think you can stand by saying that any shot has the same chance to score. But we are always all ears where we can make improvements -- but you know that.
  • What I hate is in order to be competitive in versus or hut you gotta rag the puck in the corner and do the cheese goals. If that's what you want us to do to be competitive I want no part of it.

    I played a guy in versus earlier and he was 597 CR, all he did was rag the puck in the corner and go for short side cheese over and over. Luckily I beat him in overtime, but the whole game I was rolling my eyes and saying to myself, this is great, super realistic. That's how hockey is played in real life.

    Then I played against ai with 1.0 tuner and it was actually funner than online versus or hut.

  • LeFury_27 wrote: »
    What I hate is in order to be competitive in versus or hut you gotta rag the puck in the corner and do the cheese goals. If that's what you want us to do to be competitive I want no part of it.

    I played a guy in versus earlier and he was 597 CR, all he did was rag the puck in the corner and go for short side cheese over and over. Luckily I beat him in overtime, but the whole game I was rolling my eyes and saying to myself, this is great, super realistic. That's how hockey is played in real life.

    Then I played against ai with 1.0 tuner and it was actually funner than online versus or hut.

    That is a common thing now ever since some of the so called game changers streamers were complaining how hard it was to score EA felt the need to accommodate their yes men and we'll this is the garbage that they have left us to play .
  • LeFury_27 wrote: »
    What I hate is in order to be competitive in versus or hut you gotta rag the puck in the corner and do the cheese goals. If that's what you want us to do to be competitive I want no part of it.

    I played a guy in versus earlier and he was 597 CR, all he did was rag the puck in the corner and go for short side cheese over and over. Luckily I beat him in overtime, but the whole game I was rolling my eyes and saying to myself, this is great, super realistic. That's how hockey is played in real life.

    Then I played against ai with 1.0 tuner and it was actually funner than online versus or hut.

    That is a common thing now ever since some of the so called game changers streamers were complaining how hard it was to score EA felt the need to accommodate their yes men and we'll this is the garbage that they have left us to play .

    lol Yeah.

    The type of guys who want dumbed down goalies and no defense in the game so they can sit down for 20-30 hours and figure out every way to cheese a goalie. That's who EA listens too, instead of sticking with the most hyped NHL game in a decade they go and revert it to NHL 18.1 with goalies that wouldn't even be able to play in the minors.
  • In my opinion these guys should be voted in by the community or should be changed every year because let's be real some of them really aren't thinking about what's good for the game or for the community
  • In my opinion these guys should be voted in by the community or should be changed every year because let's be real some of them really aren't thinking about what's good for the game or for the community

    Agreed, I don't know how some of them got picked but they certainly as hell are not on the same page as the community. NHL 19 as we've said was the most hyped NHL game in a decade and for some reason EA thought that the game changers who wanted cheese goals and no defense were speaking for the community, like what? I'm sick and tired of this, we finally get a good game and these guys have to go and ruin it for us because they can't score with their cheese methods that they spent months figuring out how to perfect. Far from "elite". lol
  • LeFury_27 wrote: »
    In my opinion these guys should be voted in by the community or should be changed every year because let's be real some of them really aren't thinking about what's good for the game or for the community

    Agreed, I don't know how some of them got picked but they certainly as hell are not on the same page as the community. NHL 19 as we've said was the most hyped NHL game in a decade and for some reason EA thought that the game changers who wanted cheese goals and no defense were speaking for the community, like what? I'm sick and tired of this, we finally get a good game and these guys have to go and ruin it for us because they can't score with their cheese methods that they spent months figuring out how to perfect. Far from "elite". lol

    Well I hope EA sees how they screwed up by listening to the Elite players and revert it back to it's early release or during the beta phase it was much more fun to play ,it would also be nice to hear the the cheesers whine and cry again about how hard it is to score ..lol
  • LeFury_27 wrote: »
    In my opinion these guys should be voted in by the community or should be changed every year because let's be real some of them really aren't thinking about what's good for the game or for the community

    Agreed, I don't know how some of them got picked but they certainly as hell are not on the same page as the community. NHL 19 as we've said was the most hyped NHL game in a decade and for some reason EA thought that the game changers who wanted cheese goals and no defense were speaking for the community, like what? I'm sick and tired of this, we finally get a good game and these guys have to go and ruin it for us because they can't score with their cheese methods that they spent months figuring out how to perfect. Far from "elite". lol

    Honest question, because I agree that the game doesn't play as well with nerfed dmen.

    Your post got 3 likes, maybe when everyone reads this thread it'll collect 8. Very few people actually use this forum. How do we know that the people here are representative of the Community?
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    I don't disagree. That is why I went into detail about what could be improved and the corresponding things we need to think about. I don't think anything that I wrote should imply that I think it is a good goal. It is just a product of the current tuning which could be updated but would also have other impacts on things.

    Do you feel you are seeing that goal go in often?

    In a quick test with 2 on 1 rushes in practice mode I took 25 similar shots just now and didn't score. I then took a few others from slightly closer (near top of the circle or closer) and went 1 for 10. One of the misses I took with Boeser from closer in at the top of the circles, the goalie was just late on it but it hit crossbar and went out of play. I would expect that shot to still be able to beat the goalie but the accuracy of the shot will have an impact as well. The shot that went in actually beat the goalie under the arm pit going off the inside of his blocker before squeaking in as he was just a bit late sealing that gap.

    So if you are seeing it at a higher rate, it could be that it is players with high slapshot power in EASHL vs the EASHL ai goalies attributes that is making the difference.

    It's tough to say exactly how often that shot goes in. I'm not compiling detailed stats so anything I say would just be guesswork based on imperfect human memory. If I had to guess I'd say people are having about a 5-10% success rate with that shot ( just inside the line, off center, unscreened ). Which is far too high for that scenario.

    This discussion does raise another question in my mind. When it comes to deflections is there a separate calculation done for the goalie's reaction after the deflection occurs? It seems like the AI goalie ability to react to a deflected shot is almost preternatural, but on shots where there's more time for the goalie to see the puck coming he's slower to react.
  • In my opinion these guys should be voted in by the community or should be changed every year because let's be real some of them really aren't thinking about what's good for the game or for the community

    Actually quite a few Gamechangers were voted for by the community. The ones with popular Youtube channels and whatnot got a free pass foar as I know. Wonder why...
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    I don't disagree. That is why I went into detail about what could be improved and the corresponding things we need to think about. I don't think anything that I wrote should imply that I think it is a good goal. It is just a product of the current tuning which could be updated but would also have other impacts on things.

    Do you feel you are seeing that goal go in often?

    In a quick test with 2 on 1 rushes in practice mode I took 25 similar shots just now and didn't score. I then took a few others from slightly closer (near top of the circle or closer) and went 1 for 10. One of the misses I took with Boeser from closer in at the top of the circles, the goalie was just late on it but it hit crossbar and went out of play. I would expect that shot to still be able to beat the goalie but the accuracy of the shot will have an impact as well. The shot that went in actually beat the goalie under the arm pit going off the inside of his blocker before squeaking in as he was just a bit late sealing that gap.

    So if you are seeing it at a higher rate, it could be that it is players with high slapshot power in EASHL vs the EASHL ai goalies attributes that is making the difference.

    It's tough to say exactly how often that shot goes in. I'm not compiling detailed stats so anything I say would just be guesswork based on imperfect human memory. If I had to guess I'd say people are having about a 5-10% success rate with that shot ( just inside the line, off center, unscreened ). Which is far too high for that scenario.

    This discussion does raise another question in my mind. When it comes to deflections is there a separate calculation done for the goalie's reaction after the deflection occurs? It seems like the AI goalie ability to react to a deflected shot is almost preternatural, but on shots where there's more time for the goalie to see the puck coming he's slower to react.

    Why isn't it more like in real life? Meaning, closer you are to the goalie, then technically the more success your shots should have. This would stop those people from chucking turds from the blue line....
  • @NHLDev
    I just have one simple question for you. What are the chances of this game being reverted back to beta tuners? Regardless of the communities stance on certain aspects of the game, it is CLEAR that the majority agrees that the beta was the best the game was at any moment in time. I havent played in 2 weeks and based on what I see in these forums everyday, I have literally no desire to play it again.
  • LeFury_27
    203 posts Member
    edited November 2018
    jiajji wrote: »
    LeFury_27 wrote: »
    In my opinion these guys should be voted in by the community or should be changed every year because let's be real some of them really aren't thinking about what's good for the game or for the community

    Agreed, I don't know how some of them got picked but they certainly as hell are not on the same page as the community. NHL 19 as we've said was the most hyped NHL game in a decade and for some reason EA thought that the game changers who wanted cheese goals and no defense were speaking for the community, like what? I'm sick and tired of this, we finally get a good game and these guys have to go and ruin it for us because they can't score with their cheese methods that they spent months figuring out how to perfect. Far from "elite". lol

    Honest question, because I agree that the game doesn't play as well with nerfed dmen.

    Your post got 3 likes, maybe when everyone reads this thread it'll collect 8. Very few people actually use this forum. How do we know that the people here are representative of the Community?

    I know from reading comments on this forum, reddit, youtube, twitter and talking to my eashl club along with drop in games that people are really upset with the new tuners. A lot of people I use to play drop in and club with have just quit for good. Also the numbers online speak for themselves lately.
  • LeFury_27 wrote: »
    jiajji wrote: »
    LeFury_27 wrote: »
    In my opinion these guys should be voted in by the community or should be changed every year because let's be real some of them really aren't thinking about what's good for the game or for the community

    Agreed, I don't know how some of them got picked but they certainly as hell are not on the same page as the community. NHL 19 as we've said was the most hyped NHL game in a decade and for some reason EA thought that the game changers who wanted cheese goals and no defense were speaking for the community, like what? I'm sick and tired of this, we finally get a good game and these guys have to go and ruin it for us because they can't score with their cheese methods that they spent months figuring out how to perfect. Far from "elite". lol

    Honest question, because I agree that the game doesn't play as well with nerfed dmen.

    Your post got 3 likes, maybe when everyone reads this thread it'll collect 8. Very few people actually use this forum. How do we know that the people here are representative of the Community?

    I know from reading comments on this forum, reddit, youtube, twitter and talking to my eashl club along with drop in games that people are really upset with the new tuners. A lot of people I use to play drop in and club with have just quit for good. Also the numbers online speak for themselves lately.

    Same here. Almost everyone I talk to in-game, including my club, all agree this game was tuned into a joke.''If this game was tuned this way because of some 20 odd people cried about it, then I really don't know what to say other than, bye as a customer.
  • VeNOM2099
    3178 posts Member
    edited November 2018
    NHLDev wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »

    Thanks for answering. I'll try to be brief.

    I had many more of them. But my allotted space was getting rather full of clips. The issue (for me anyways) isn't so much that stick lifting cause more penalties (they should) but that the skating is mostly of the "weaving back and forth" variety which leads to many unnecessary calls. We've had this talk before, about lateral acceleration being one of the highest cause for gameplay issues from users. This is one more of them to add to the pile. Perhaps it's finally time to lower it in the next tuner and see how that affects gameplay?

    Offfensive and Defensive players have the same skating ability this year with puck carriers having a 'with puck' penalty. That is why we put everything under the motion model and removed pieces like the old 45 degree cuts in favor of glide exits that were accurately within the skate models ability. Players are constantly asking for us to remove the 'with puck' penalty to skating which is there for that exact reason. Players shouldn't be as quick and agile with the puck as players are without it and that is already part of the game.

    I don't disagree that our players are currently more responsive than real life when it comes to our online settings but as you can see from these boards, others will tell you that players are turning like trucks still. All mechanics on the offensive and defensive side of the puck are tuned with all those factors in mind though.

    It wasn't poke check, it was a DSS attempt. I was actually just trying to hold out my stick in one direction (the puck's) and hope it was at least going to disrupt the pass attempt. What I wasn't expecting was for the stick to veer away like that. I didn't sweep the stick. Nor did I change my skater's direction as I was homing in on the player with the puck. To tell you the truth when I saw it happen live, I was thinking that the stick phased through the ice and I was going to be a lot more LIVID than I was. LOL!

    Yep, understood. However, the original DSS location is where a poke would target and you have manual control with your right stick if you want to override. So the original DSS location would still target where the puck was going when you pressed it and won't update if the puck changes direction after that. This is actually a good thing when penalties are concerned -- it means you can poke at a puck that is exposed to you without worry that the 'auto update' will then drag through skates if the player then pulls the puck away after you initiate the poke which means you will just miss to open space rather than "get help" dragging your stick through a players legs causing a trip. Your player turning would partly be because the upper body tries to face the puck and then the stick will stay in a place that is the closest to what you are asking for that is still physically possible. He definitely got turned around with that happening in that case though. That logic works fairly well when you keep the puck in front of you though.
    As I said during the highlight; I wasn't expecting every scoring chance to be a goal. Sometimes the goalie CAN make a save on even the best shot or setup. I'm ok with that. My issue came with the fact that a simple shot from very far away, goalie unscreened, has almost just as much of a chance of beating the goalie than one of those scoring chances. It turns the game from something requiring knowledge and skill to absolute chaos where every player just b-lines it directly to the puck handler, mashing poke check, stick lift, big hit, whatever works to usurp the puck because GOD FORGIVE if you give your opponent a chance to shoot on the net! The user shouldn't be praying that every little shot directed at their goalie might be a goal.

    That's what creates so much animosity from the user base. Hockey is simply a sport where you try to limit the chances to score and you funnel the play to allow your goalie to stop the easy shots. This game is more about limiting ANY type of shot good or bad. There are thousands of players better than me, but they all experience the same thing, the same amount of stress in their game against random opponents because anything WILL happen. And it doesn't matter that they're more skilled, or they know all the best ways to score, or they have the best players on their team.

    I don't want to win all my games. I just want to play HOCKEY. Something I could do early on in the game's life. Now even playing against someone like my opponent in that highlight, an average player with little hockey knowledge or skill at the game. It's a nerve wracking experience. It's an unsatisfying experience because I couldn't play hockey. I just did whatever and I won.

    I definitely don't agree with that. In a one goal game as time is winding down, sure any shot becomes more dangerous but in most cases if they don't get a good chance they aren't scoring (and that is why I do like seeing videos that people post where we can make improvements to exceptions to that). There is a reason skill zone was/is such a hot topic. Players would give people shots from the perimeter all day and unless you got a shot with a screen, you weren't going to have a high chance to score. Players wanted to limit chances from the slot and one timers as the most dangerous chances. I really don't think you can stand by saying that any shot has the same chance to score. But we are always all ears where we can make improvements -- but you know that.

    Sorry I'm late in replying, but I had to go get thrashed in a couple of LG games last night. :/

    But to answer you, yes, as time is ticking down, shots on net become much more dangerous as the players and the goalies nerves are probably tested in a very tight contest. I get it that humans can make mistakes as pressure mounts. However how is it a human's mistake when he has his digital avatar on screen standing in front of an errant puck and he fails to pick it up? As far as I know picking pucks up is an automated thing handled by the game.

    As for skillzoning, much like the people who dispute the existence of "ice tilt" and "DDA", I dispute the existence of "skillzoning". I think what people call "skillzoning" is actually playing good defense. Players were being forced to shoot from the perimeter because they couldn't get into the slot? You mean they were being forced to play HOCKEY? In a HOCKEY Game? The Calamity!!! :scream:

    Not "any" shot, but very many shots are dangerous when they really don't have any business being so. Unscreened shots from the point or the high slot or the top of the face off circles. Shots from the red line from like 3-5 feet out that always handcuff the goalies (especially when the player veers away from the net and just shoots an FAF - Fire and Forget- type of shot at you).

    On the positive side, you'll notice I stopped complaining about the goalies so much. The last tuner/patch changes have improved things tremendously, even though there are still some things left to iron out like the puck covers (still too slow) and post to post movement (still too slow). I like how the paddle down blending out from post works so much faster and smoother now. I can actually watch my post and still move to make a save if I need to!

    Your handywork in play (at the beginning and ending of the clip):

    https://clips.twitch.tv/SmilingPhilanthropicPelicanBrokeBack

    So thanks for that! :smiley:
  • VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »

    Thanks for answering. I'll try to be brief.

    I had many more of them. But my allotted space was getting rather full of clips. The issue (for me anyways) isn't so much that stick lifting cause more penalties (they should) but that the skating is mostly of the "weaving back and forth" variety which leads to many unnecessary calls. We've had this talk before, about lateral acceleration being one of the highest cause for gameplay issues from users. This is one more of them to add to the pile. Perhaps it's finally time to lower it in the next tuner and see how that affects gameplay?

    Offfensive and Defensive players have the same skating ability this year with puck carriers having a 'with puck' penalty. That is why we put everything under the motion model and removed pieces like the old 45 degree cuts in favor of glide exits that were accurately within the skate models ability. Players are constantly asking for us to remove the 'with puck' penalty to skating which is there for that exact reason. Players shouldn't be as quick and agile with the puck as players are without it and that is already part of the game.

    I don't disagree that our players are currently more responsive than real life when it comes to our online settings but as you can see from these boards, others will tell you that players are turning like trucks still. All mechanics on the offensive and defensive side of the puck are tuned with all those factors in mind though.

    It wasn't poke check, it was a DSS attempt. I was actually just trying to hold out my stick in one direction (the puck's) and hope it was at least going to disrupt the pass attempt. What I wasn't expecting was for the stick to veer away like that. I didn't sweep the stick. Nor did I change my skater's direction as I was homing in on the player with the puck. To tell you the truth when I saw it happen live, I was thinking that the stick phased through the ice and I was going to be a lot more LIVID than I was. LOL!

    Yep, understood. However, the original DSS location is where a poke would target and you have manual control with your right stick if you want to override. So the original DSS location would still target where the puck was going when you pressed it and won't update if the puck changes direction after that. This is actually a good thing when penalties are concerned -- it means you can poke at a puck that is exposed to you without worry that the 'auto update' will then drag through skates if the player then pulls the puck away after you initiate the poke which means you will just miss to open space rather than "get help" dragging your stick through a players legs causing a trip. Your player turning would partly be because the upper body tries to face the puck and then the stick will stay in a place that is the closest to what you are asking for that is still physically possible. He definitely got turned around with that happening in that case though. That logic works fairly well when you keep the puck in front of you though.
    As I said during the highlight; I wasn't expecting every scoring chance to be a goal. Sometimes the goalie CAN make a save on even the best shot or setup. I'm ok with that. My issue came with the fact that a simple shot from very far away, goalie unscreened, has almost just as much of a chance of beating the goalie than one of those scoring chances. It turns the game from something requiring knowledge and skill to absolute chaos where every player just b-lines it directly to the puck handler, mashing poke check, stick lift, big hit, whatever works to usurp the puck because GOD FORGIVE if you give your opponent a chance to shoot on the net! The user shouldn't be praying that every little shot directed at their goalie might be a goal.

    That's what creates so much animosity from the user base. Hockey is simply a sport where you try to limit the chances to score and you funnel the play to allow your goalie to stop the easy shots. This game is more about limiting ANY type of shot good or bad. There are thousands of players better than me, but they all experience the same thing, the same amount of stress in their game against random opponents because anything WILL happen. And it doesn't matter that they're more skilled, or they know all the best ways to score, or they have the best players on their team.

    I don't want to win all my games. I just want to play HOCKEY. Something I could do early on in the game's life. Now even playing against someone like my opponent in that highlight, an average player with little hockey knowledge or skill at the game. It's a nerve wracking experience. It's an unsatisfying experience because I couldn't play hockey. I just did whatever and I won.

    I definitely don't agree with that. In a one goal game as time is winding down, sure any shot becomes more dangerous but in most cases if they don't get a good chance they aren't scoring (and that is why I do like seeing videos that people post where we can make improvements to exceptions to that). There is a reason skill zone was/is such a hot topic. Players would give people shots from the perimeter all day and unless you got a shot with a screen, you weren't going to have a high chance to score. Players wanted to limit chances from the slot and one timers as the most dangerous chances. I really don't think you can stand by saying that any shot has the same chance to score. But we are always all ears where we can make improvements -- but you know that.

    Sorry I'm late in replying, but I had to go get thrashed in a couple of LG games last night. :/

    But to answer you, yes, as time is ticking down, shots on net become much more dangerous as the players and the goalies nerves are probably tested in a very tight contest. I get it that humans can make mistakes as pressure mounts. However how is it a human's mistake when he has his digital avatar on screen standing in front of an errant puck and he fails to pick it up? As far as I know picking pucks up is an automated thing handled by the game.

    As for skillzoning, much like the people who dispute the existence of "ice tilt" and "DDA", I dispute the existence of "skillzoning". I think what people call "skillzoning" is actually playing good defense. Players were being forced to shoot from the perimeter because they couldn't get into the slot? You mean they were being forced to play HOCKEY? In a HOCKEY Game? The Calamity!!! :scream:

    Not "any" shot, but very many shots are dangerous when they really don't have any business being so. Unscreened shots from the point or the high slot or the top of the face off circles. Shots from the red line from like 3-5 feet out that always handcuff the goalies (especially when the player veers away from the net and just shoots an FAF - Fire and Forget- type of shot at you).

    On the positive side, you'll notice I stopped complaining about the goalies so much. The last tuner/patch changes have improved things tremendously, even though there are still some things left to iron out like the puck covers (still too slow) and post to post movement (still too slow). I like how the paddle down blending out from post works so much faster and smoother now. I can actually watch my post and still move to make a save if I need to!

    Your handywork in play (at the beginning and ending of the clip):

    https://clips.twitch.tv/SmilingPhilanthropicPelicanBrokeBack

    So thanks for that! :smiley:

    I think the issue with skill zoning is people don't know what it is. They think that because you're not actively playing the guy on the puck then you're just sitting back into a zone and "skill zoning".

    When really skill zoning was never playing the guy to begin with and letting the ai retrieve pucks for you, as opposed to you doing it yourself. In 18 guys would control their player to step up and then switch off to let the ai abuse their overpowered hitting ability and lack of reaction time to steal pucks. Just because you defend the pass into the slot doesn't mean that you skill zone. Like you said it's smart defense.

    Guys would literally only play as the centre man and plant in the middle of their zone knowing the ai would pick off passes for them.

    If you are the one preventing passes, you aren't skill zoning, you're skill using.
  • VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »

    Thanks for answering. I'll try to be brief.

    I had many more of them. But my allotted space was getting rather full of clips. The issue (for me anyways) isn't so much that stick lifting cause more penalties (they should) but that the skating is mostly of the "weaving back and forth" variety which leads to many unnecessary calls. We've had this talk before, about lateral acceleration being one of the highest cause for gameplay issues from users. This is one more of them to add to the pile. Perhaps it's finally time to lower it in the next tuner and see how that affects gameplay?

    Offfensive and Defensive players have the same skating ability this year with puck carriers having a 'with puck' penalty. That is why we put everything under the motion model and removed pieces like the old 45 degree cuts in favor of glide exits that were accurately within the skate models ability. Players are constantly asking for us to remove the 'with puck' penalty to skating which is there for that exact reason. Players shouldn't be as quick and agile with the puck as players are without it and that is already part of the game.

    I don't disagree that our players are currently more responsive than real life when it comes to our online settings but as you can see from these boards, others will tell you that players are turning like trucks still. All mechanics on the offensive and defensive side of the puck are tuned with all those factors in mind though.

    It wasn't poke check, it was a DSS attempt. I was actually just trying to hold out my stick in one direction (the puck's) and hope it was at least going to disrupt the pass attempt. What I wasn't expecting was for the stick to veer away like that. I didn't sweep the stick. Nor did I change my skater's direction as I was homing in on the player with the puck. To tell you the truth when I saw it happen live, I was thinking that the stick phased through the ice and I was going to be a lot more LIVID than I was. LOL!

    Yep, understood. However, the original DSS location is where a poke would target and you have manual control with your right stick if you want to override. So the original DSS location would still target where the puck was going when you pressed it and won't update if the puck changes direction after that. This is actually a good thing when penalties are concerned -- it means you can poke at a puck that is exposed to you without worry that the 'auto update' will then drag through skates if the player then pulls the puck away after you initiate the poke which means you will just miss to open space rather than "get help" dragging your stick through a players legs causing a trip. Your player turning would partly be because the upper body tries to face the puck and then the stick will stay in a place that is the closest to what you are asking for that is still physically possible. He definitely got turned around with that happening in that case though. That logic works fairly well when you keep the puck in front of you though.
    As I said during the highlight; I wasn't expecting every scoring chance to be a goal. Sometimes the goalie CAN make a save on even the best shot or setup. I'm ok with that. My issue came with the fact that a simple shot from very far away, goalie unscreened, has almost just as much of a chance of beating the goalie than one of those scoring chances. It turns the game from something requiring knowledge and skill to absolute chaos where every player just b-lines it directly to the puck handler, mashing poke check, stick lift, big hit, whatever works to usurp the puck because GOD FORGIVE if you give your opponent a chance to shoot on the net! The user shouldn't be praying that every little shot directed at their goalie might be a goal.

    That's what creates so much animosity from the user base. Hockey is simply a sport where you try to limit the chances to score and you funnel the play to allow your goalie to stop the easy shots. This game is more about limiting ANY type of shot good or bad. There are thousands of players better than me, but they all experience the same thing, the same amount of stress in their game against random opponents because anything WILL happen. And it doesn't matter that they're more skilled, or they know all the best ways to score, or they have the best players on their team.

    I don't want to win all my games. I just want to play HOCKEY. Something I could do early on in the game's life. Now even playing against someone like my opponent in that highlight, an average player with little hockey knowledge or skill at the game. It's a nerve wracking experience. It's an unsatisfying experience because I couldn't play hockey. I just did whatever and I won.

    I definitely don't agree with that. In a one goal game as time is winding down, sure any shot becomes more dangerous but in most cases if they don't get a good chance they aren't scoring (and that is why I do like seeing videos that people post where we can make improvements to exceptions to that). There is a reason skill zone was/is such a hot topic. Players would give people shots from the perimeter all day and unless you got a shot with a screen, you weren't going to have a high chance to score. Players wanted to limit chances from the slot and one timers as the most dangerous chances. I really don't think you can stand by saying that any shot has the same chance to score. But we are always all ears where we can make improvements -- but you know that.

    Sorry I'm late in replying, but I had to go get thrashed in a couple of LG games last night. :/

    But to answer you, yes, as time is ticking down, shots on net become much more dangerous as the players and the goalies nerves are probably tested in a very tight contest. I get it that humans can make mistakes as pressure mounts. However how is it a human's mistake when he has his digital avatar on screen standing in front of an errant puck and he fails to pick it up? As far as I know picking pucks up is an automated thing handled by the game.

    As for skillzoning, much like the people who dispute the existence of "ice tilt" and "DDA", I dispute the existence of "skillzoning". I think what people call "skillzoning" is actually playing good defense. Players were being forced to shoot from the perimeter because they couldn't get into the slot? You mean they were being forced to play HOCKEY? In a HOCKEY Game? The Calamity!!! :scream:

    Not "any" shot, but very many shots are dangerous when they really don't have any business being so. Unscreened shots from the point or the high slot or the top of the face off circles. Shots from the red line from like 3-5 feet out that always handcuff the goalies (especially when the player veers away from the net and just shoots an FAF - Fire and Forget- type of shot at you).

    On the positive side, you'll notice I stopped complaining about the goalies so much. The last tuner/patch changes have improved things tremendously, even though there are still some things left to iron out like the puck covers (still too slow) and post to post movement (still too slow). I like how the paddle down blending out from post works so much faster and smoother now. I can actually watch my post and still move to make a save if I need to!

    Your handywork in play (at the beginning and ending of the clip):

    https://clips.twitch.tv/SmilingPhilanthropicPelicanBrokeBack

    So thanks for that! :smiley:

    I think the issue with skill zoning is people don't know what it is. They think that because you're not actively playing the guy on the puck then you're just sitting back into a zone and "skill zoning".

    When really skill zoning was never playing the guy to begin with and letting the ai retrieve pucks for you, as opposed to you doing it yourself. In 18 guys would control their player to step up and then switch off to let the ai abuse their overpowered hitting ability and lack of reaction time to steal pucks. Just because you defend the pass into the slot doesn't mean that you skill zone. Like you said it's smart defense.

    Guys would literally only play as the centre man and plant in the middle of their zone knowing the ai would pick off passes for them.

    If you are the one preventing passes, you aren't skill zoning, you're skill using.

    Skillzoning is the doing of cheesy forwards, simple as that. When all they do is cheese in the corner to bait the back defending AI out of position, or just loop from the corner to the slot for a top corner goal on the glove, then this is what happens. It is the best way defenders found to counter these two incredibly overused tactics. They have no one to blame but themselves, yet they cry about what they themselves created.

    So I say, skillzone all the way, all day, every day. Yea baby!
  • VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »

    Thanks for answering. I'll try to be brief.

    I had many more of them. But my allotted space was getting rather full of clips. The issue (for me anyways) isn't so much that stick lifting cause more penalties (they should) but that the skating is mostly of the "weaving back and forth" variety which leads to many unnecessary calls. We've had this talk before, about lateral acceleration being one of the highest cause for gameplay issues from users. This is one more of them to add to the pile. Perhaps it's finally time to lower it in the next tuner and see how that affects gameplay?

    Offfensive and Defensive players have the same skating ability this year with puck carriers having a 'with puck' penalty. That is why we put everything under the motion model and removed pieces like the old 45 degree cuts in favor of glide exits that were accurately within the skate models ability. Players are constantly asking for us to remove the 'with puck' penalty to skating which is there for that exact reason. Players shouldn't be as quick and agile with the puck as players are without it and that is already part of the game.

    I don't disagree that our players are currently more responsive than real life when it comes to our online settings but as you can see from these boards, others will tell you that players are turning like trucks still. All mechanics on the offensive and defensive side of the puck are tuned with all those factors in mind though.

    It wasn't poke check, it was a DSS attempt. I was actually just trying to hold out my stick in one direction (the puck's) and hope it was at least going to disrupt the pass attempt. What I wasn't expecting was for the stick to veer away like that. I didn't sweep the stick. Nor did I change my skater's direction as I was homing in on the player with the puck. To tell you the truth when I saw it happen live, I was thinking that the stick phased through the ice and I was going to be a lot more LIVID than I was. LOL!

    Yep, understood. However, the original DSS location is where a poke would target and you have manual control with your right stick if you want to override. So the original DSS location would still target where the puck was going when you pressed it and won't update if the puck changes direction after that. This is actually a good thing when penalties are concerned -- it means you can poke at a puck that is exposed to you without worry that the 'auto update' will then drag through skates if the player then pulls the puck away after you initiate the poke which means you will just miss to open space rather than "get help" dragging your stick through a players legs causing a trip. Your player turning would partly be because the upper body tries to face the puck and then the stick will stay in a place that is the closest to what you are asking for that is still physically possible. He definitely got turned around with that happening in that case though. That logic works fairly well when you keep the puck in front of you though.
    As I said during the highlight; I wasn't expecting every scoring chance to be a goal. Sometimes the goalie CAN make a save on even the best shot or setup. I'm ok with that. My issue came with the fact that a simple shot from very far away, goalie unscreened, has almost just as much of a chance of beating the goalie than one of those scoring chances. It turns the game from something requiring knowledge and skill to absolute chaos where every player just b-lines it directly to the puck handler, mashing poke check, stick lift, big hit, whatever works to usurp the puck because GOD FORGIVE if you give your opponent a chance to shoot on the net! The user shouldn't be praying that every little shot directed at their goalie might be a goal.

    That's what creates so much animosity from the user base. Hockey is simply a sport where you try to limit the chances to score and you funnel the play to allow your goalie to stop the easy shots. This game is more about limiting ANY type of shot good or bad. There are thousands of players better than me, but they all experience the same thing, the same amount of stress in their game against random opponents because anything WILL happen. And it doesn't matter that they're more skilled, or they know all the best ways to score, or they have the best players on their team.

    I don't want to win all my games. I just want to play HOCKEY. Something I could do early on in the game's life. Now even playing against someone like my opponent in that highlight, an average player with little hockey knowledge or skill at the game. It's a nerve wracking experience. It's an unsatisfying experience because I couldn't play hockey. I just did whatever and I won.

    I definitely don't agree with that. In a one goal game as time is winding down, sure any shot becomes more dangerous but in most cases if they don't get a good chance they aren't scoring (and that is why I do like seeing videos that people post where we can make improvements to exceptions to that). There is a reason skill zone was/is such a hot topic. Players would give people shots from the perimeter all day and unless you got a shot with a screen, you weren't going to have a high chance to score. Players wanted to limit chances from the slot and one timers as the most dangerous chances. I really don't think you can stand by saying that any shot has the same chance to score. But we are always all ears where we can make improvements -- but you know that.

    Sorry I'm late in replying, but I had to go get thrashed in a couple of LG games last night. :/

    But to answer you, yes, as time is ticking down, shots on net become much more dangerous as the players and the goalies nerves are probably tested in a very tight contest. I get it that humans can make mistakes as pressure mounts. However how is it a human's mistake when he has his digital avatar on screen standing in front of an errant puck and he fails to pick it up? As far as I know picking pucks up is an automated thing handled by the game.

    As for skillzoning, much like the people who dispute the existence of "ice tilt" and "DDA", I dispute the existence of "skillzoning". I think what people call "skillzoning" is actually playing good defense. Players were being forced to shoot from the perimeter because they couldn't get into the slot? You mean they were being forced to play HOCKEY? In a HOCKEY Game? The Calamity!!! :scream:

    Not "any" shot, but very many shots are dangerous when they really don't have any business being so. Unscreened shots from the point or the high slot or the top of the face off circles. Shots from the red line from like 3-5 feet out that always handcuff the goalies (especially when the player veers away from the net and just shoots an FAF - Fire and Forget- type of shot at you).

    On the positive side, you'll notice I stopped complaining about the goalies so much. The last tuner/patch changes have improved things tremendously, even though there are still some things left to iron out like the puck covers (still too slow) and post to post movement (still too slow). I like how the paddle down blending out from post works so much faster and smoother now. I can actually watch my post and still move to make a save if I need to!

    Your handywork in play (at the beginning and ending of the clip):

    https://clips.twitch.tv/SmilingPhilanthropicPelicanBrokeBack

    So thanks for that! :smiley:

    I think the issue with skill zoning is people don't know what it is. They think that because you're not actively playing the guy on the puck then you're just sitting back into a zone and "skill zoning".

    When really skill zoning was never playing the guy to begin with and letting the ai retrieve pucks for you, as opposed to you doing it yourself. In 18 guys would control their player to step up and then switch off to let the ai abuse their overpowered hitting ability and lack of reaction time to steal pucks. Just because you defend the pass into the slot doesn't mean that you skill zone. Like you said it's smart defense.

    Guys would literally only play as the centre man and plant in the middle of their zone knowing the ai would pick off passes for them.

    If you are the one preventing passes, you aren't skill zoning, you're skill using.

    Skillzoning is the doing of cheesy forwards, simple as that. When all they do is cheese in the corner to bait the back defending AI out of position, or just loop from the corner to the slot for a top corner goal on the glove, then this is what happens. It is the best way defenders found to counter these two incredibly overused tactics. They have no one to blame but themselves, yet they cry about what they themselves created.

    So I say, skillzone all the way, all day, every day. Yea baby!

    Absolutely. Been there since NHL 11.
  • VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »

    Thanks for answering. I'll try to be brief.

    I had many more of them. But my allotted space was getting rather full of clips. The issue (for me anyways) isn't so much that stick lifting cause more penalties (they should) but that the skating is mostly of the "weaving back and forth" variety which leads to many unnecessary calls. We've had this talk before, about lateral acceleration being one of the highest cause for gameplay issues from users. This is one more of them to add to the pile. Perhaps it's finally time to lower it in the next tuner and see how that affects gameplay?

    Offfensive and Defensive players have the same skating ability this year with puck carriers having a 'with puck' penalty. That is why we put everything under the motion model and removed pieces like the old 45 degree cuts in favor of glide exits that were accurately within the skate models ability. Players are constantly asking for us to remove the 'with puck' penalty to skating which is there for that exact reason. Players shouldn't be as quick and agile with the puck as players are without it and that is already part of the game.

    I don't disagree that our players are currently more responsive than real life when it comes to our online settings but as you can see from these boards, others will tell you that players are turning like trucks still. All mechanics on the offensive and defensive side of the puck are tuned with all those factors in mind though.

    It wasn't poke check, it was a DSS attempt. I was actually just trying to hold out my stick in one direction (the puck's) and hope it was at least going to disrupt the pass attempt. What I wasn't expecting was for the stick to veer away like that. I didn't sweep the stick. Nor did I change my skater's direction as I was homing in on the player with the puck. To tell you the truth when I saw it happen live, I was thinking that the stick phased through the ice and I was going to be a lot more LIVID than I was. LOL!

    Yep, understood. However, the original DSS location is where a poke would target and you have manual control with your right stick if you want to override. So the original DSS location would still target where the puck was going when you pressed it and won't update if the puck changes direction after that. This is actually a good thing when penalties are concerned -- it means you can poke at a puck that is exposed to you without worry that the 'auto update' will then drag through skates if the player then pulls the puck away after you initiate the poke which means you will just miss to open space rather than "get help" dragging your stick through a players legs causing a trip. Your player turning would partly be because the upper body tries to face the puck and then the stick will stay in a place that is the closest to what you are asking for that is still physically possible. He definitely got turned around with that happening in that case though. That logic works fairly well when you keep the puck in front of you though.
    As I said during the highlight; I wasn't expecting every scoring chance to be a goal. Sometimes the goalie CAN make a save on even the best shot or setup. I'm ok with that. My issue came with the fact that a simple shot from very far away, goalie unscreened, has almost just as much of a chance of beating the goalie than one of those scoring chances. It turns the game from something requiring knowledge and skill to absolute chaos where every player just b-lines it directly to the puck handler, mashing poke check, stick lift, big hit, whatever works to usurp the puck because GOD FORGIVE if you give your opponent a chance to shoot on the net! The user shouldn't be praying that every little shot directed at their goalie might be a goal.

    That's what creates so much animosity from the user base. Hockey is simply a sport where you try to limit the chances to score and you funnel the play to allow your goalie to stop the easy shots. This game is more about limiting ANY type of shot good or bad. There are thousands of players better than me, but they all experience the same thing, the same amount of stress in their game against random opponents because anything WILL happen. And it doesn't matter that they're more skilled, or they know all the best ways to score, or they have the best players on their team.

    I don't want to win all my games. I just want to play HOCKEY. Something I could do early on in the game's life. Now even playing against someone like my opponent in that highlight, an average player with little hockey knowledge or skill at the game. It's a nerve wracking experience. It's an unsatisfying experience because I couldn't play hockey. I just did whatever and I won.

    I definitely don't agree with that. In a one goal game as time is winding down, sure any shot becomes more dangerous but in most cases if they don't get a good chance they aren't scoring (and that is why I do like seeing videos that people post where we can make improvements to exceptions to that). There is a reason skill zone was/is such a hot topic. Players would give people shots from the perimeter all day and unless you got a shot with a screen, you weren't going to have a high chance to score. Players wanted to limit chances from the slot and one timers as the most dangerous chances. I really don't think you can stand by saying that any shot has the same chance to score. But we are always all ears where we can make improvements -- but you know that.

    Sorry I'm late in replying, but I had to go get thrashed in a couple of LG games last night. :/

    But to answer you, yes, as time is ticking down, shots on net become much more dangerous as the players and the goalies nerves are probably tested in a very tight contest. I get it that humans can make mistakes as pressure mounts. However how is it a human's mistake when he has his digital avatar on screen standing in front of an errant puck and he fails to pick it up? As far as I know picking pucks up is an automated thing handled by the game.

    As for skillzoning, much like the people who dispute the existence of "ice tilt" and "DDA", I dispute the existence of "skillzoning". I think what people call "skillzoning" is actually playing good defense. Players were being forced to shoot from the perimeter because they couldn't get into the slot? You mean they were being forced to play HOCKEY? In a HOCKEY Game? The Calamity!!! :scream:

    Not "any" shot, but very many shots are dangerous when they really don't have any business being so. Unscreened shots from the point or the high slot or the top of the face off circles. Shots from the red line from like 3-5 feet out that always handcuff the goalies (especially when the player veers away from the net and just shoots an FAF - Fire and Forget- type of shot at you).

    On the positive side, you'll notice I stopped complaining about the goalies so much. The last tuner/patch changes have improved things tremendously, even though there are still some things left to iron out like the puck covers (still too slow) and post to post movement (still too slow). I like how the paddle down blending out from post works so much faster and smoother now. I can actually watch my post and still move to make a save if I need to!

    Your handywork in play (at the beginning and ending of the clip):

    https://clips.twitch.tv/SmilingPhilanthropicPelicanBrokeBack

    So thanks for that! :smiley:

    I think the issue with skill zoning is people don't know what it is. They think that because you're not actively playing the guy on the puck then you're just sitting back into a zone and "skill zoning".

    When really skill zoning was never playing the guy to begin with and letting the ai retrieve pucks for you, as opposed to you doing it yourself. In 18 guys would control their player to step up and then switch off to let the ai abuse their overpowered hitting ability and lack of reaction time to steal pucks. Just because you defend the pass into the slot doesn't mean that you skill zone. Like you said it's smart defense.

    Guys would literally only play as the centre man and plant in the middle of their zone knowing the ai would pick off passes for them.

    If you are the one preventing passes, you aren't skill zoning, you're skill using.

    Skillzoning is the doing of cheesy forwards, simple as that. When all they do is cheese in the corner to bait the back defending AI out of position, or just loop from the corner to the slot for a top corner goal on the glove, then this is what happens. It is the best way defenders found to counter these two incredibly overused tactics. They have no one to blame but themselves, yet they cry about what they themselves created.

    So I say, skillzone all the way, all day, every day. Yea baby!

    Absolutely. Been there since NHL 11.

    I know, right? Players only use 2 plays to try and score, and whine that people only use 2, or in this case, 1 way to defend them. Isn't that weird? :confounded:
  • NHLDev
    1669 posts EA NHL Developer

    This discussion does raise another question in my mind. When it comes to deflections is there a separate calculation done for the goalie's reaction after the deflection occurs? It seems like the AI goalie ability to react to a deflected shot is almost preternatural, but on shots where there's more time for the goalie to see the puck coming he's slower to react.

    Yes, the goalie has to react again to a deflection. Remember that they are still reacting to the original shot though so if the deflection isn't a great one, they may still be hit by the puck incidentally or even be late on their next save to the deflected puck position but still get hit with it.
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