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And just like that...the optimism faded

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  • VeNOM2099
    3178 posts Member
    edited November 2018
    Delay of game is a penalty in ice hockey. It results in the offending player spending two minutes in the penalty box. In the NHL, delay of game is usually called under seven circumstances:[1]
    1. A player or goaltender intentionally shoots or throws the puck out of the playing area.
    2. A defensive player in the defensive zone shoots the puck directly (without being deflected) over the glass. This penalty only applies if the player shoots it over the glass. If the puck is shot into the bench, no penalty is assessed.
    3. This penalty only applies if the player shoots it over the glass. If the puck is shot into the bench, no penalty is assessed.
    4. A player or goaltender intentionally knocks the net's goalpost off its moorings, which stops the play. If the net is intentionally knocked loose during a breakaway, the breakaway player is awarded a penalty shot. If there is not enough time in the game to serve the full delay of game penalty, the last player to take a shot is also awarded a penalty shot.
    5. The Player or goalie intentionally keeps the puck behind the net for more than a minute
    6. The goaltender freezes the puck rather than passing it on to a teammate when no player on the opposing team is within sufficient distance to apply offensive pressure to him.
    7. Any skater other than the goaltender uses their hands to make the puck unplayable (in some leagues, this is called "closing hand on puck").
    8. Fans begin to throw objects onto the ice or disrupt the game.[2]
    9. Beginning from the 2017-18 NHL season, an unsuccessful coach's challenge for offside results in the challenging team being assessed a bench minor for delay of game.

    [Editing comment to remove baiting remarks - @EA_Roger ]
    Post edited by EA_Roger on
  • KidShowtime1867
    1145 posts Member
    edited November 2018

    Behind the net

    The complaint here is the players can dangle all over the ice.

    Obvioulsy standing behind your net and not moving the puck is a penalty.

    But, as I have correctly stated - skating around the ice playing keep away is NOT a penalty.

    [Editing comment to remove baiting remarks - @EA_Roger ]
    Post edited by EA_Roger on
  • My reading is just fine: People are complaining that players take the puck and rag it behind the net. If they were simply dippsy doodling in open ice you could take away the puck. But if they go behind the net it's almost impossible to get the puck back unless A) you have another human help to pinch him in there or B ) The AI is actually smart for once.

  • EA_Cian
    253 posts EA Staff (retired)
    Hey folks - let's please dial back some of the comments we're making. It's okay to disagree, that's not an issue, but let's not make comments targeted at other people. That's not cool and only makes conversations get off track.
  • VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    My reading is just fine: People are complaining that players take the puck and rag it behind the net. If they were simply dippsy doodling in open ice you could take away the puck. But if they go behind the net it's almost impossible to get the puck back unless A) you have another human help to pinch him in there or B ) The AI is actually smart for once.

    If the AI knew how to properly forecheck, this problem would be almost immediately mitigated. The AI are very poor in some very basic hockey situations. They also look very good at times too, don’t get me wrong, but with ragging and empty-net situations they seem to really struggle.
  • VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    My reading is just fine: People are complaining that players take the puck and rag it behind the net. If they were simply dippsy doodling in open ice you could take away the puck. But if they go behind the net it's almost impossible to get the puck back unless A) you have another human help to pinch him in there or B ) The AI is actually smart for once.

    People just aren't complaining about ragging behind the net - the complaints are surrounding the ability to hold on the the puck and utilize the 'bubble' to retain possession for as long as you like.

    Obviously ragging behind the net is against the rules - however - you can skate out to the neutral zone, turn right around and go behind the net as much as you want - so long as you move the play from behind the net prior to exceeding 1 minute.

    Like I have stated earlier and correctly so - in the real NHL this doesn't happen often due to sportsmanship and the fact that players have a responsibility to keep the flow of the game going.

    In EA NHL - sportsmanship is a rarity online and people will do anything within the boundaries set for them in order to win. Skating around, playing keep away and circling back to your own zone - although a terrible and unsportsmanlike thing to do - is well within the rules.


    EA_Cian wrote: »
    Hey folks - let's please dial back some of the comments we're making. It's okay to disagree, that's not an issue, but let's not make comments targeted at other people. That's not cool and only makes conversations get off track.

    My apologies.
  • EpiCxOwNeD wrote: »

    Which is a penalty in real life for delaying the game.

    No, it's not.

    Yes it is. Delaying action in a game, sitting behind the net for prolonged period periods of time to stall is considered a delay of game, among other things.
  • VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    My reading is just fine: People are complaining that players take the puck and rag it behind the net. If they were simply dippsy doodling in open ice you could take away the puck. But if they go behind the net it's almost impossible to get the puck back unless A) you have another human help to pinch him in there or B ) The AI is actually smart for once.

    People just aren't complaining about ragging behind the net - the complaints are surrounding the ability to hold on the the puck and utilize the 'bubble' to retain possession for as long as you like.

    Obviously ragging behind the net is against the rules - however - you can skate out to the neutral zone, turn right around and go behind the net as much as you want - so long as you move the play from behind the net prior to exceeding 1 minute.

    Like I have stated earlier and correctly so - in the real NHL this doesn't happen often due to sportsmanship and the fact that players have a responsibility to keep the flow of the game going.

    In EA NHL - sportsmanship is a rarity online and people will do anything within the boundaries set for them in order to win. Skating around, playing keep away and circling back to your own zone - although a terrible and unsportsmanlike thing to do - is well within the rules.


    EA_Cian wrote: »
    Hey folks - let's please dial back some of the comments we're making. It's okay to disagree, that's not an issue, but let's not make comments targeted at other people. That's not cool and only makes conversations get off track.

    My apologies.

    It’s not for “sportsmanship” reasons why NHL teams can’t rag the puck for 20 minutes. It’s fatigue, bad ice, body contact and stick contact that actually works, missed passes, bobbled passes, and most importantly proper forecheck strategies.

    Before 1.03 (aka NHL 12/14’s I hate defense sliders ) ragging was not very possible due to the bumps from behind. Bumps needed to be addressed but they went way too far with it now and have made a lot of exploitable stuff possible again. And not to sound like a broken record, but the AI cannot forecheck. They’re absolutely lost. Even a 2-3 results in a one-man human forecheck if the game has already decided that we’re in “trap mode” now which means 1-2-2 at best. I believe just fixing the AI would mitigate these problems without adding more bumping back to the game.
  • EpiCxOwNeD wrote: »

    Which is a penalty in real life for delaying the game.

    No, it's not.

    Yes it is. Delaying action in a game, sitting behind the net for prolonged period periods of time to stall is considered a delay of game, among other things.

    Like I have repeatedly said - not talking about just sitting behind the net. Obviously that it a penalty.

    Playing keep away while moving the puck up and down the ice is not a penalty.

  • this thread is about optimism fading not ragging the puck. make a new thread if you want to discuss that please @EA_Roger @EA_Cian.
  • this thread is about optimism fading not ragging the puck. make a new thread if you want to discuss that please @EA_Roger @EA_Cian.

    Well tbh the whole discussion was that optimism faded because of certain things and puck ragging is one of them. :smile:
  • EA_Roger
    1482 posts EA Community Manager
    @SiIkyJohnson I understand your point of view however the OP did use this as an example which spurred the conversation into a debate about ragging the puck. The participants still think their optimism is faded but are talking about the "why" more so which I think is good.
  • EpiCxOwNeD wrote: »

    Which is a penalty in real life for delaying the game.

    No, it's not.

    Yes it is. Delaying action in a game, sitting behind the net for prolonged period periods of time to stall is considered a delay of game, among other things.

    Like I have repeatedly said - not talking about just sitting behind the net. Obviously that it a penalty.

    Playing keep away while moving the puck up and down the ice is not a penalty.

    Gotcha. I didn't think people really had a problem with possession hockey if you're moving it forward generally.
  • NHLDev wrote: »

    Offfensive and Defensive players have the same skating ability this year with puck carriers having a 'with puck' penalty. That is why we put everything under the motion model and removed pieces like the old 45 degree cuts in favor of glide exits that were accurately within the skate models ability. Players are constantly asking for us to remove the 'with puck' penalty to skating which is there for that exact reason. Players shouldn't be as quick and agile with the puck as players are without it and that is already part of the game.

    I don't get this. Why is there a puck penalty when skating with the puck? Are you trying to tell me that NHL players stop moving their feet when they get the puck or for some reason slow down or are less agile when they stick handle? That's complete nonsense. THAT is what separates players playing in the N vs guys that aren't. Yes YOU probably have to look at the puck and stop moving your feet to do the moves these guys do on the ice, but they don't. It's all the same motion, puck or no puck. It's a natural feeling regardless of whether you have the puck or not.
    forgot to add something with the skill stick, why can't we puck handle with the skill stick and skate at the same time??? as soon as you start using the RS your guy will stop skating and glide. that isn't realistic either and is a huge reason every team can trap so easily.

    This right here sums up why pivoting is the go to. Because you can't skate with the puck properly and stick handle at the same time, so people have come up with the totally unrealistic way to move the puck and avoid defenders sticks by skating sideways and backwards with unrealistic pivots while still carrying your momentum and skating. Because you can't do both normally. It makes no sense.

    Go watch hockey. Guys protecting the puck, and deking goalies out of their shorts in game; IE NOT in a shootout, are not out there gliding around when they get the puck because they can't skate and stick handle both, they are out there doing the churn and burn, getting the legs churning and creating the separation for themselves.

    Regardless of that MAJOR issue that seems to be written off as "well I can't do it so nobody else can" type of logic, whatever was done to the skating between now and the beta is atrocious. The game opened up with so much more space when the speed was higher. The turns were quick and agile and the straightline speed was the best it had felt. Now every game is a slog fest because theres no speed or agility again. Incoming "well when you play against better competition the space goes away" post from NHL Dev. That's a cop out. Because it's not just against better competition. It's against everyone. I can trap professional teams to death like Composure or Rated R and play them competitive and I shouldn't be able to because I'm not on that level. And on the other end I can get trapped to death by guys a couple years ago I would have beat the brakes off of.
  • OvenMitts91
    64 posts Member
    edited November 2018
    The only way to enact any kind of change at this point is to not buy the game. It’s very clear that the current dev team is capable (see beta tuner) but completely out of touch with their player base (see post beta tuners).

    Unfortunately I can’t sell my digital copy but this is the last straw for me after loyally playing this series since 1995. If the beta is good next year I’ll wait until Black Friday to ensure I don’t get duped again.
  • The only way to enact any kind of change at this point is to not buy the game. It’s very clear that the current dev team is capable (see beta tuner) but completely out of touch with their player base (see post beta tuners).

    Unfortunately I can’t sell my digital copy but this is the last straw for me after loyally playing this series since 1995. If the beta is good next year I’ll wait until Black Friday to ensure I don’t get duped again.

    Agreed, I've been a buyer of NHL since 05' and I have bought so many other EA games. 8/13 games installed on my PS4 are all made by EA.

    I Feel after what they did to NHL 19 I will never give them another penny. They pretend they made "minor changes" and that just simply isn't true. They pretend competition got "better" but somehow I'm able to win on a much more frequent basis than previous tuners because I know all the go to goals in "high scoring areas." I'm so angry with EA that they would pull this stunt on us and pretend that everything is somehow fine. The game just isn't fun anymore.
  • NickKefz
    67 posts Member
    edited November 2018
    I would like to see the deke succession rate and puck control on dekes to be what it was in early 16 which was really high for all builds. I think this is a huge reason why you see the same stagnant play all the time because there is really no more unique way to gain zone entries and separation from shifting into different lanes, the early beta LT pivot was a great tool for forwards but its basically gone or ineffective now unless you are using a very small dangler build which is not ideal in 6s.

    I think that a large percentage of the community liked the game better at beta/early state because it forced people to play a much different way. You could only poke in one position, hitting was realistic and consistent, offense was being promoted by the agile and responsive gameplay at all build levels, high level teams were still trapping but had to step out of their shape to hit you or have a perfectly placed poke how defense should be somewhat challenging with a skill gap and rewarding.

    Now we are back to how the game is playing the past 2 years and once again there is just no more creativity in the competitive eashl scene everything is basic and repetitive which equates to not being fun and the past few years its gone as far as making the meta of playing the game toxically and thoughtless.

    One step forward at the early stages then 5 steps back this year with the changes is probably the most disheartening thing among the die hard fan base.
  • LeFury_27
    203 posts Member
    edited November 2018
    Why do they say we need to "adapt" to the new tuners? I Don't get it. Why do the players who failed to adapt to the beta tuner and 1.0 tuner get tuners that revert the game back to NHL 18?

    And somehow they thought "long and hard" about adding the new tuners but the truth is those tuners came not even a month and a half into full release. How on earth do you decide to make changes that quick with such a small sample size?

    It's almost as if EA is scared to try anything new. NHL 19 was hyped up because it was new. I thought they would of known everyone wanted what they were selling, speed, agility and creativity.

    Reverting back to NHL 18 not even a month and a half into full release makes me question a lot of things.
  • LeFury_27 wrote: »
    Why do they say we need to "adapt" to the new tuners? I Don't get it. Why do the players who failed to adapt to the beta tuner and 1.0 tuner get tuners that revert the game back to NHL 18?

    And somehow they thought "long and hard" about adding the new tuners but the truth is those tuners came not even a month and a half into full release. How on earth do you decide to make changes that quick with such a small sample size?

    It's almost as if EA is scared to try anything new. NHL 19 was hyped up because it was new. I thought they would of known everyone wanted what they were selling, speed, agility and creativity.

    Reverting back to NHL 18 not even a month and a half into full release makes me question a lot of things.

    Maybe the HUT numbers were down and they panicked. Upper management called a meeting and all of a sudden everyone's job was on the line and this was the best possible solution in the shortest amount of time.
    Who knows?
    All we can deduce is that someone in the ranks of this company decided not to give, as good as it was, the real NHL 19 a chance.
  • Like I have repeatedly said - not talking about just sitting behind the net. Obviously that it a penalty.
    I'm not so sure that penalty would be called in this game?
    Try it out the next time someone goes AFK and post a clip of that call?
    Playing keep away while moving the puck up and down the ice is not a penalty.
    This is the harsh truth. It is not sportsmanslike but still, it is within the rules.
    In my experience, you can sort of pin a player behind his own net.
    But to do this, you need to hold left stick up, while smashing the "change player"-button. (Obviously Vs or HUT, not EASHL, that's a totally different story). It is a high risk move since you have to commit two plyaers to one guy. And most of the times, that pinned player will pass it straight through one of the incoming forecheckers.
    An interesting thought, that has come up in this thread, is to let players stick-handle while they're moving. That would make ragging even worse, right?
    Well, if you also removed every bubble or advantage from being able to hold your stick out for a prolonged time, this game would be so much better!
    (OK, my 2 cents... That would work though, wouldn't it?)


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