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Dynamic difficulty is ruining versus play

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  • j0rtsu67
    480 posts Member
    edited November 2018
    NHLDev wrote: »
    j0rtsu67 wrote: »
    It would be interesting to hear @NHLDev's opinion on this one.

    I spoke to our lead Gameplay engineer who has also been a lead Online engineer for some perspective before jumping into this one and confirmed that the delay that a player may experience due to different network conditions in either a P2P game or a Server based game will not impact the ai on either side. The game is running at a set update that has to remain in sync.
    Just to clarify, has it been tested by them "in the real world" (having said delay) or is it just "that's the way is intented to be"?

    I'm asking because I think that you guys have no idea what is it to play with said situation, having "a fat man lag" and your AI going haywire.

    But how about this theory: if a player having a fat man lag (is forced to) try too hard to get in control and gives too many (delayed) inputs to his player/team causing them to be out of position all the time. Could this make AI to lose its ability to play like they should?

    I'm just trying to find a reasonable explanation why people are having this experience.
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    j0rtsu67 wrote: »
    It would be interesting to hear @NHLDev's opinion on this one.

    I spoke to our lead Gameplay engineer who has also been a lead Online engineer for some perspective before jumping into this one and confirmed that the delay that a player may experience due to different network conditions in either a P2P game or a Server based game will not impact the ai on either side. The game is running at a set update that has to remain in sync.



    Can we find out why this happens then? I was convinced DDA is not the issue and was certain a bad P2P connection was....if this is not the case why does the AI play well some games and then play braindead others? Obviously a lot of people experience this. Nothing worse than losing a game because your AI defender skates away from the guy camped in front of the net for the easy one timer goal, they skate away from the puck sometimes, they skate into you, bunch up, or collapse to the sane man you are covering. I would chalk this up to overall bad AI but I’ve seen them play good too. This can’t be a strategy issue because their is no strategy that says cover nobody and no game should have AI designed to behave that way. Hopefully we are getting to the bottom of a real issue here and get it solved.
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    j0rtsu67 wrote: »
    It would be interesting to hear @NHLDev's opinion on this one.

    I spoke to our lead Gameplay engineer who has also been a lead Online engineer for some perspective before jumping into this one and confirmed that the delay that a player may experience due to different network conditions in either a P2P game or a Server based game will not impact the ai on either side. The game is running at a set update that has to remain in sync.



    I understand how the game has to remain in sync, but when you are lagging, are you not in sync? How can you lag, but not your AI? How can the AI interact properly with you if you yourself are lagging?

    Sorry, but maybe your response is clear for you, but for us dweebs that don't work in the industry, it isn't very clear. At least, not to me. I would appreciate some elaboration, if possible.
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    j0rtsu67 wrote: »
    It would be interesting to hear @NHLDev's opinion on this one.

    I spoke to our lead Gameplay engineer who has also been a lead Online engineer for some perspective before jumping into this one and confirmed that the delay that a player may experience due to different network conditions in either a P2P game or a Server based game will not impact the ai on either side. The game is running at a set update that has to remain in sync.



    I understand how the game has to remain in sync, but when you are lagging, are you not in sync? How can you lag, but not your AI? How can the AI interact properly with you if you yourself are lagging?

    Sorry, but maybe your response is clear for you, but for us dweebs that don't work in the industry, it isn't very clear. At least, not to me. I would appreciate some elaboration, if possible.

    This is just my understanding and I have a tiny bit of experience in this - but not specific to EA.. so their setup may differ..

    When you are 'lagging' - that's when there's a desync in game state. Usually it's milliseconds, but during that time - at least one console is behind in the game 'state' and needs to catch up.

    You know how in really bad lag the game just sits there for 1-2 seconds with no movement? One, or both of the consoles are trying to get their data to sync. It's not that the data is different (ie: the A.I. would be impacted) it's that the 'state' between consoles is out of sync.

    On a P2P connection, the two consoles connected to one another are always sending each other 'game states'. If one console's 'state' doesn't match the other console's 'state' - that's when you get those little lag spikes during gameplay where one console gets stuck and then suddenly runs at warp speed. In that scenario, the console who got 'stuck' lost the game 'state' but received it in time as to not cause cross the threshold for total connection loss - then you get the warp speed which is essentially your game just catching up to the current game 'state'.

    Game 'state' is important because the state of the game encapsulates every single element of the current game in play - including A.I. So I can see how the A.I. is not impacted during lag events.

    Again - this is just from my experience on other titles and in no way should be considered identical to what EA does, but I'm sure the foundation (in p2p anyway) is essentially the same.

  • NHLDev wrote: »
    j0rtsu67 wrote: »
    It would be interesting to hear @NHLDev's opinion on this one.

    I spoke to our lead Gameplay engineer who has also been a lead Online engineer for some perspective before jumping into this one and confirmed that the delay that a player may experience due to different network conditions in either a P2P game or a Server based game will not impact the ai on either side. The game is running at a set update that has to remain in sync.



    I understand how the game has to remain in sync, but when you are lagging, are you not in sync? How can you lag, but not your AI? How can the AI interact properly with you if you yourself are lagging?

    Sorry, but maybe your response is clear for you, but for us dweebs that don't work in the industry, it isn't very clear. At least, not to me. I would appreciate some elaboration, if possible.

    This is just my understanding and I have a tiny bit of experience in this - but not specific to EA.. so their setup may differ..

    When you are 'lagging' - that's when there's a desync in game state. Usually it's milliseconds, but during that time - at least one console is behind in the game 'state' and needs to catch up.

    You know how in really bad lag the game just sits there for 1-2 seconds with no movement? One, or both of the consoles are trying to get their data to sync. It's not that the data is different (ie: the A.I. would be impacted) it's that the 'state' between consoles is out of sync.

    On a P2P connection, the two consoles connected to one another are always sending each other 'game states'. If one console's 'state' doesn't match the other console's 'state' - that's when you get those little lag spikes during gameplay where one console gets stuck and then suddenly runs at warp speed. In that scenario, the console who got 'stuck' lost the game 'state' but received it in time as to not cause cross the threshold for total connection loss - then you get the warp speed which is essentially your game just catching up to the current game 'state'.

    Game 'state' is important because the state of the game encapsulates every single element of the current game in play - including A.I. So I can see how the A.I. is not impacted during lag events.

    Again - this is just from my experience on other titles and in no way should be considered identical to what EA does, but I'm sure the foundation (in p2p anyway) is essentially the same.

    That part I get, at least the basics of it. What I don't get is how it cannot affect AI. My AI has to react to what my opponent is doing so if I am half a second behind, how can my AI not be half a second behind? Especially in a p2p environment?
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    j0rtsu67 wrote: »
    It would be interesting to hear @NHLDev's opinion on this one.

    I spoke to our lead Gameplay engineer who has also been a lead Online engineer for some perspective before jumping into this one and confirmed that the delay that a player may experience due to different network conditions in either a P2P game or a Server based game will not impact the ai on either side. The game is running at a set update that has to remain in sync.



    I understand how the game has to remain in sync, but when you are lagging, are you not in sync? How can you lag, but not your AI? How can the AI interact properly with you if you yourself are lagging?

    Sorry, but maybe your response is clear for you, but for us dweebs that don't work in the industry, it isn't very clear. At least, not to me. I would appreciate some elaboration, if possible.

    This is just my understanding and I have a tiny bit of experience in this - but not specific to EA.. so their setup may differ..

    When you are 'lagging' - that's when there's a desync in game state. Usually it's milliseconds, but during that time - at least one console is behind in the game 'state' and needs to catch up.

    You know how in really bad lag the game just sits there for 1-2 seconds with no movement? One, or both of the consoles are trying to get their data to sync. It's not that the data is different (ie: the A.I. would be impacted) it's that the 'state' between consoles is out of sync.

    On a P2P connection, the two consoles connected to one another are always sending each other 'game states'. If one console's 'state' doesn't match the other console's 'state' - that's when you get those little lag spikes during gameplay where one console gets stuck and then suddenly runs at warp speed. In that scenario, the console who got 'stuck' lost the game 'state' but received it in time as to not cause cross the threshold for total connection loss - then you get the warp speed which is essentially your game just catching up to the current game 'state'.

    Game 'state' is important because the state of the game encapsulates every single element of the current game in play - including A.I. So I can see how the A.I. is not impacted during lag events.

    Again - this is just from my experience on other titles and in no way should be considered identical to what EA does, but I'm sure the foundation (in p2p anyway) is essentially the same.

    That part I get, at least the basics of it. What I don't get is how it cannot affect AI. My AI has to react to what my opponent is doing so if I am half a second behind, how can my AI not be half a second behind? Especially in a p2p environment?

    From my understanding, your A.I. and his A.I. are both in the game's 'state' - not on each other's consoles.. if that makes sense.

    If you are a half second "behind" - your A.I. isn't as it's included in the game state. Your human controlled player will definitely be behind - but your A.I. continues on as normal.
  • The thing that really confuses me is that when i have a MUD period i also have it playing challenges offline. And by changing the sliders i can replicate the MUD playing a regular game against the CPU. Lag is another thing and it feels totally different which make me think that it is not network related. But who knows. By the answer from the developer, he seems totally unaware of what MUD/Fatman Lag is. It´s a wide problem but i guess EA can´t replicate it in their environment. I´m in a MUD period right now, started two days ago and i can forget about playing online until it vanishes.
  • The thing that really confuses me is that when i have a MUD period i also have it playing challenges offline.

    Yea I'm not sure how the lag effects things offline - although I understand in HUT there is a constant connection to EA's servers, even for offline events - I'm not so sure how it would impact gameplay.

    Again - don't know much about EA's network engineering, so it's hard to do anything but speculate.
  • I have captured the packages to and from the EA server playing both online and offline. I used my pfsense router to do that. And playing offline there is few packages sent back and forth to the EA server every 10 seconds or so. I cannot imagine that could possibly cause the AI to be out of sync.
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    j0rtsu67 wrote: »
    It would be interesting to hear @NHLDev's opinion on this one.

    I spoke to our lead Gameplay engineer who has also been a lead Online engineer for some perspective before jumping into this one and confirmed that the delay that a player may experience due to different network conditions in either a P2P game or a Server based game will not impact the ai on either side. The game is running at a set update that has to remain in sync.



    I understand how the game has to remain in sync, but when you are lagging, are you not in sync? How can you lag, but not your AI? How can the AI interact properly with you if you yourself are lagging?

    Sorry, but maybe your response is clear for you, but for us dweebs that don't work in the industry, it isn't very clear. At least, not to me. I would appreciate some elaboration, if possible.

    This is just my understanding and I have a tiny bit of experience in this - but not specific to EA.. so their setup may differ..

    When you are 'lagging' - that's when there's a desync in game state. Usually it's milliseconds, but during that time - at least one console is behind in the game 'state' and needs to catch up.

    You know how in really bad lag the game just sits there for 1-2 seconds with no movement? One, or both of the consoles are trying to get their data to sync. It's not that the data is different (ie: the A.I. would be impacted) it's that the 'state' between consoles is out of sync.

    On a P2P connection, the two consoles connected to one another are always sending each other 'game states'. If one console's 'state' doesn't match the other console's 'state' - that's when you get those little lag spikes during gameplay where one console gets stuck and then suddenly runs at warp speed. In that scenario, the console who got 'stuck' lost the game 'state' but received it in time as to not cause cross the threshold for total connection loss - then you get the warp speed which is essentially your game just catching up to the current game 'state'.

    Game 'state' is important because the state of the game encapsulates every single element of the current game in play - including A.I. So I can see how the A.I. is not impacted during lag events.

    Again - this is just from my experience on other titles and in no way should be considered identical to what EA does, but I'm sure the foundation (in p2p anyway) is essentially the same.

    That part I get, at least the basics of it. What I don't get is how it cannot affect AI. My AI has to react to what my opponent is doing so if I am half a second behind, how can my AI not be half a second behind? Especially in a p2p environment?

    From my understanding, your A.I. and his A.I. are both in the game's 'state' - not on each other's consoles.. if that makes sense.

    If you are a half second "behind" - your A.I. isn't as it's included in the game state. Your human controlled player will definitely be behind - but your A.I. continues on as normal.

    Ok, I get what you are saying. Makes sense, in a way. I still don't understand how the AI can interact with laggy players.

    Anyways, bottom line is, apparently AI is not affected by lag.
  • I think I'm with a couple other players. There has to be an explanation for it. Are they doing enough testing with different systems to even know what Fatman lag is?
  • Sinbin
    1331 posts Member
    Fatboyee wrote: »
    OP. honestly, maybe you are just not as good as you think you are?

    If you can't get back to back wins and you think it's becuase of the team you pick.....

    Like... Really? I would take a step back and assess your play.

    That post added nothing. Theres nothing wrong with the way i play. Btw now im hovering between 622 and 612 points. I haven't had a prolonged stretch of 25 games where its win loss.

    One thing i noticed is that since the gameplay update mattews is scratched on toronto. Im able to win without him easier then i could with him.

    Also ive noticed players with a higher rank tend to use lower rated teams.

    Perhaps ea can tells us what is done in the background to allow a poor team be more competitive with a good team? I wonder if that is the clue.

    What id ask is a player at a disadvantage using a lower rated team? If so, in what way?

    To reiterate what was said, maybe you're not as good as you think you are. Just because someone has a lower rated team, it doesn't mean you automatically get the win. Skill is the most important factor in the outcome of games.
  • jake19ny
    688 posts Member
    edited November 2018
    Let’s not get off track....we are learning some stuff here and hopefully we can get to the bottom of this. Let’s review;

    Many people, including myself occasionally experience bad things with this game. This includes one team being slower, one team having difficulty picking up pucks, goalies who allow 3 goals on 5 total shots, and braindead wandering AI. Many of us believed there was a mechanic incorporated into this gane, like other games, known as DDA (dynamic difficulty adjustment) or in this franchise it’s affectionately known as ice tilt. There are also many who don’t believe DDA is in the game but experience some or all of the same issues and they chalk it up to the P2P connection. After the Dev jumped in and cleared a few things up and a few people opened my eyes to the difference between regular lag and P2P horrors I accepted that DDA is not in this game. After research on the P2P connection I believed all those bad things were related to this archaic way of connecting. However recently in this thread the Dev looked into in an explained that a bad P2P connection DOES NOT AFFECT THE AI.....this now confuses everything because your goalie is AI....Your teammates skating slower are AI.....Your Wandering teammates are AI.

    So this begs the question.....what’s causing this? I was sure it was the P2P. Dev any insight?
    Post edited by jake19ny on
  • jake19ny wrote: »
    Let’s not get off track....we are learning some stuff here and hopefully we can get to the bottom of this. Let’s review;

    Many people, including myself occasionally experience bad things with this game. This includes one team being slower, one team having difficulty picking up pucks, goalies who allow 3 goals on 5 total shots, and braindead wandering AI. Many of us believed there was a mechanic incorporated into this gane, like other games, known as DDA (dynamic difficulty adjustment) or in this franchise it’s affectionately known as ice tilt. There are also many who don’t believe DDA is in the game but experience some or all of the same issues and they chalk it up to the P2P connection. After the Dev jumped in and cleared a few things up and a few people opened my eyes to the difference between regular lag and P2P horrors I accepted that DDA is not in this game. After research on the P2P connection I believed all those bad things were related to this archaic way of connecting. However recently in this thread the Dev looked into in an explained that a bad P2P connection DOES NOT AFFECT THE AI.....this now confuses everything because your goalie is AI....Your teammates skating slower are AI.....Your Wandering teammates are AI.

    So this begs the question.....what’s causing this? I was sure it was the P2P. Dev any insight?
    Exactly. We need a reasonable explanation. Like I asked before: has the dev team tested this game in "real world circumstances", do they have any idea what we are talking about, do they have any idea what is it to play with Fatman lag?

  • it’s DDA. It’s always been DDA and it will always will be DDA. Until they can admit and explain how the momentum mechanics work in the game any word from EA about DDA is a lie. They won’t admit to momentum. We all know 100 percent that there is momentum is in the game. We all know theres moments in the game where one team skates harder and faster, can bounce of direct hits and ignore physics. These moments are predictable mind you but they happen and we all know it. As long as one teams ai players are even the slightest more effective than the other it’s DDA.

    I don’t know if I know of a game other than Mario Kart that play precisely like a game with DDA would. The reason for all this nonsensical randomness is precisely DDA. The reason why we’re still talking about puck pick ups is DDA. Randomness creates the ability to fail at something very likely and the ability to succeed at something unlikely. Precisely how this game plays. Create an illusion of success.
  • jake19ny
    688 posts Member
    edited November 2018
    Also maybe a Dev can explain this. Yesterday I played a CS game and my opponents entire team was made up of Gold Commons 74-75. Today I played a CS game and my opponents entire team was Gold Conmons and Silvers. Both games my opponents team was every bit as good as mine. The second game they were super powered. I won the first game 3-1 and lost the second game 3-2. My Legend 93 Leetch was no match for his silver cards as it was impossible to remove the puck from them and from behind Leetch and my other defenders just couldn’t catch up to those silver and gold commons. My Thanksgiving Malkin, Gretzky, and other forwards just couldn’t out skate or maintain control of the puck around his silver and gold common defenders. They easily bumped me off the puck.
    Before the usual suspects say my opponents were just better than me and I didn’t take advantage of scoring opportunities like they did, blah blah blah......let it be known that the AI on my opponents team were super human. These silver and gold common AI bots swarmed me with lightening speed and the skill of an NHL all-star team. They closed gaps, passing lanes, and covered my open men like a warm blanket on a cold night. It honestly felt like I was playing an entire team of 99 overalls.
    Happens way to often and quite honestly it’s ridiculous. If a bad P2P connection does not cause this what does?
  • Either a Bug or DDA, only solutions i can see.
    The things that speak against DDA is that a lot of the top-ranked players claim they never experienced it. Why is that?
    Then it´s implemented so incredibly bad without any finesse. I mean, in offline mode, is it not enough to increase the opponent level, why do my players have to be nerfed down so much? Then to do the same in online mode, it´s insane if done by purpose.
  • Either a Bug or DDA, only solutions i can see.
    The things that speak against DDA is that a lot of the top-ranked players claim they never experienced it. Why is that?
    Then it´s implemented so incredibly bad without any finesse. I mean, in offline mode, is it not enough to increase the opponent level, why do my players have to be nerfed down so much? Then to do the same in online mode, it´s insane if done by purpose.

    The only reasonable explanation is that you're nerfing yourself. They have said time and time again there is no momentum, ice tilt, whatever you want to call it, but people refuse to take accountability. If you guys would just work on getting better, you'd stop believing something behind the scenes is forcing you to win and lose.
  • Sinbin wrote: »
    Either a Bug or DDA, only solutions i can see.
    The things that speak against DDA is that a lot of the top-ranked players claim they never experienced it. Why is that?
    Then it´s implemented so incredibly bad without any finesse. I mean, in offline mode, is it not enough to increase the opponent level, why do my players have to be nerfed down so much? Then to do the same in online mode, it´s insane if done by purpose.

    The only reasonable explanation is that you're nerfing yourself. They have said time and time again there is no momentum, ice tilt, whatever you want to call it, but people refuse to take accountability. If you guys would just work on getting better, you'd stop believing something behind the scenes is forcing you to win and lose.

    I win around 95% of the games I play in VS, it's not mental. There's mental aspects to the mode but Fatman lag is not a mental thing. You can tell when your ai isn't working as intended, there's no explosion in turning, your shots don't hit corners, your passes don't go where you aim, etc.

    I can still win those games, but anybody that's at my level would beat me in those games pretty easily (which is a two goal win against me in my books). I'll never get blown out, but holy Dyna it can be tough just to defend against guys with meh skill because controlling your dman is so much more of a challenge.

    There's even been games where I play guys with losing records and I barely win, and it's not due to lack of chances.
  • The only reasonable explanation is that you're nerfing yourself. They have said time and time again there is no momentum, ice tilt, whatever you want to call it, but people refuse to take accountability. If you guys would just work on getting better, you'd stop believing something behind the scenes is forcing you to win and lose.

    I don´t understand why you are posting in these threads? You are obviously one of the unaffected ones and while i can understand that you don´t believe MUD exist because of that i cannot understand why you need to post your opinion about anything you never have experienced. We who have mud only want a solution. as HoodHopper say most of us are still having winning records but we can feel the unnatural difference in gameplay for the worse.
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