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NHL 20 Content Update October 25th


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Dynamic difficulty is ruining versus play

Replies

  • NHLDev wrote: »
    j0rtsu67 wrote: »
    It would be interesting to hear @NHLDev's opinion on this one.

    I spoke to our lead Gameplay engineer who has also been a lead Online engineer for some perspective before jumping into this one and confirmed that the delay that a player may experience due to different network conditions in either a P2P game or a Server based game will not impact the ai on either side. The game is running at a set update that has to remain in sync.



    For me, the input delay started after the October update.
  • Ea what determins host? I think what im see is im rarely host if ever despite a 50down 10up megabit connection.

    I played a developer friend last night in Vancouver (i was in toronto.). Someone that ea has repeatdly tried to hire as he specialized on sports game design. He had a 100/25 megabit connection.

    We started the game and the controls were fine. I got 3 goals in the first period. Then all of a sudden there was latency on my controls. This wasnt network related on either side as he had a faster connection then me through Shaw.

    I scored once more and then the latency on my controls set in for the rest of the game making it hard for me to control my players or pass and shoot. He scored 3 times ane i scored one more late in the third to win 5 - 3. He noticed there wasnt any lag on his controls, which made it easy to get him back in the game.

    I out shot him big time, but it was nearly impossible to setup one timers with the latency. I could baely shoot the puck with out his players getting on me first. My players had trouble picking up the puck or holding on to it.

    There is no doubt theres logic in this game that is unrelated to network connection that artificially increases control latency to call it whatever u want ( tilt/DDA/momentum ) occurring during versus online.
  • ExSnake01 wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    j0rtsu67 wrote: »
    It would be interesting to hear @NHLDev's opinion on this one.

    I spoke to our lead Gameplay engineer who has also been a lead Online engineer for some perspective before jumping into this one and confirmed that the delay that a player may experience due to different network conditions in either a P2P game or a Server based game will not impact the ai on either side. The game is running at a set update that has to remain in sync.



    For me, the input delay started after the October update.

    Same here. I had input delay on laggy games, but it didn't feel anywhere close to as noticeable as after the October update.
  • There is no doubt theres logic in this game that is unrelated to network connection that artificially increases control latency to call it whatever u want ( tilt/DDA/momentum ) occurring during versus online.
    I tend to agree, i cannot see it any other way. It´s unbelievable that EA can do it but i believe they do.
  • ExSnake01 wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    j0rtsu67 wrote: »
    It would be interesting to hear @NHLDev's opinion on this one.

    I spoke to our lead Gameplay engineer who has also been a lead Online engineer for some perspective before jumping into this one and confirmed that the delay that a player may experience due to different network conditions in either a P2P game or a Server based game will not impact the ai on either side. The game is running at a set update that has to remain in sync.



    For me, the input delay started after the October update.

    Same here. I had input delay on laggy games, but it didn't feel anywhere close to as noticeable as after the October update.

    I am not sure of the exact timing, but I think my lag worsened around that time as well.
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    jake19ny wrote: »
    I agree 100% with this but I’m not sure that explains how a team made up of much lower rated cards and be much faster an entire game. Some have suggested this results from a bad p2p connection. I honestly don’t know much about that so maybe it is. But it also doesn’t explain how you can dominate every aspect of a game in the stats department, set up amazing plays but get robbed, and then the opponent scores 2-3 easy goals. When the game is over you outshot your opponent 29-6 but lost 3-2. For the record I have been on the winning side of those games as well. I understand it happens in real hockey but as often as we see it here. If you are telling me that’s just how the game is and you are looking to improve the game in that area then that’s find also as long as acknowledged as an issue.

    I think it explains it in the exact same way. There is subjectivity in your evaluation of what you see.

    It is possible that connections can add input delay sure but I am not sure if that is impacting what you are seeing or not.

    As far as one team dominating. That is where things can still be subjective. We have seen people post their 'good chances' on these boards via video and once you see them, you can see why they were not goals.

    But the main topic here isn't about if players can get robbed on good chances or not, it is about how that only happens for one team and that is what simply isn't true.

    At the end of the day, I really think it is just people's subjective opinions about the current tuning which gets even worse when they then have a bias about their own play vs their opponents in terms of how they notice how certain things play out in the game.

    No matter what, we are always looking at ways we can improve the game but as you have seen on the boards, even if we take feedback that comes directly from the community and then weigh that against our original goals for the games tuning/balance and make adjustments where it makes sense, people won't be happy with those changes in many cases anyways. There is a lot of subjectivity involved.

    In practically every response I've read from you, you continually affirm that most if not all of the issues users are experiencing are attributed solely to subjective bias and lack of skill.

    In the past, he NHL series has had factors such as:
    Hot and cold player and team streaks, momentum meter, goalie fatgue, chemistry. . All predetermined factors coded into the game affecting your teams in game performance.

    The issue is not user skill, it's team performance, it's the noticible depreciation of the attributes of your players.

    If it's a p2p issue then address it, but stop acting like these issues are nothing more than users inability to deal with losses.
  • Fatboyee
    83 posts Member
    edited November 2018
    I just had one of those games again. I played a guy using the leafs and he used washington. He was home and i was away. I'm 100% certain i wasn't host for this game.

    There was lag/latency on every attempt as passing and shooting for me. He must have outshot me 45 to 15. It was nearly impossible to do anything. hitting pass was ignored or delayed, which made it impossible for me to pass to the right player. every pass attempt I made was intercepted if close to his players (behind or in front of them). Any puck battle where the puck was bouncing, he would always pick up the puck. any puck deflection or bounce always went in direction of my end.

    He ended up beating me 3- 2 in overtime. all he did was slap the puck trying to pick a corner the entire game. he barely passed at all. basically there is MASSIVE host advantage in this game. to the point where there's no point in playing as I'm never host. Anytime I think I'm going to get a home game, its usually does the weird black screen loading ( you can hear the menu music and in game sounds at the same time ) and the other player exits before the puck drop ( happens very often for me!). When they exit you see an empty arena, with some of your players on the ice, but not the opposing team.

    I think I'm done with this game. I haven't been this angry with how it plays in years ( or since about april last year when it started playing like this after tuner updates ) It's really disappointing, as its the only hockey game out there. Host advantage negates any and all skill in most cases. I hope Digital foundry does an expose on this and other EA sports games to discuss how the latency is artificially changed during game play and imposed on players for unknown reasons. Not only is it unfair, but somewhat dishonest for games that should be skill based.

    IMO, this is a bigger issue/scandal then all the nonsense made about loot boxes.
  • ExSnake01 wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    j0rtsu67 wrote: »
    It would be interesting to hear @NHLDev's opinion on this one.

    I spoke to our lead Gameplay engineer who has also been a lead Online engineer for some perspective before jumping into this one and confirmed that the delay that a player may experience due to different network conditions in either a P2P game or a Server based game will not impact the ai on either side. The game is running at a set update that has to remain in sync.



    For me, the input delay started after the October update.

    Same here. I had input delay on laggy games, but it didn't feel anywhere close to as noticeable as after the October update.

    While I pretty much never have lag, there are some games where my player feels a little sluggish. I wouldn't say fat man lag, just slightly sluggish. Like my player was hopped up on cough medicine or whatever lol. Weirdly enough, this appeared for me in the October update as well.
  • KidShowtime1867
    949 posts Member
    edited November 2018
    Fatboyee wrote: »
    There is no doubt theres logic in this game that is unrelated to network connection that artificially increases control latency to call it whatever u want ( tilt/DDA/momentum ) occurring during versus online.

    Absolutely, 100% untrue. Provide evidence. Seriously - to say there's "no doubt" is an absolute fabrication. You have no clue whatsoever as to what you're talking about. This is NOT a personal attack. I am just pointing out that you're making a claim without any proof. None. That's not an attack I am just challenging you to provide EVIDENCE for your claims.

    [Removed call out to mods]
    Post edited by EA_Roger on
  • Fatboyee wrote: »
    There is no doubt theres logic in this game that is unrelated to network connection that artificially increases control latency to call it whatever u want ( tilt/DDA/momentum ) occurring during versus online.

    Absolutely, 100% untrue. Provide evidence. Seriously - to say there's "no doubt" is an absolute fabrication. You have no clue whatsoever as to what you're talking about. This is NOT a personal attack. I am just pointing out that you're making a claim without any proof. None. That's not an attack (for the mods out there) I am just challenging you to provide EVIDENCE for your claims.

    Absolutely 100% something is wrong....I don’t know what it is but something happens that a large amount of users are experiencing and that alone is more evidence that something is up than there is evidence that something isn’t. The Devs have issued blanket denials on DDA and I’m giving them the benefit of the doubt on that. The ridiculous P2P connection EA uses was thought to be the culprit but the Dev has indicated that connectivity issues do not affect AI play.....they need to figure out what the problem is because it destroys the gaming experience win or lose. To say people don’t know what they are talking about is pretty ridiculous when so many describe the same thing, again win or lose.
  • Fatboyee wrote: »
    There is no doubt theres logic in this game that is unrelated to network connection that artificially increases control latency to call it whatever u want ( tilt/DDA/momentum ) occurring during versus online.

    Absolutely, 100% untrue. Provide evidence. Seriously - to say there's "no doubt" is an absolute fabrication. You have no clue whatsoever as to what you're talking about. This is NOT a personal attack. I am just pointing out that you're making a claim without any proof. None. That's not an attack (for the mods out there) I am just challenging you to provide EVIDENCE for your claims.

    This sure seems like a personal attack and adds nothing to this thread imo. Where's your proof its not occuring? That there isnt host advantage or other functions in the game that affect gameplay? I dont see how i or any average user can provide more the anecdotal evidence. unless we can directly demonstrate the latency between input and events during a game. To do that i dont have the equipment or time. Thats what digital foundry does. Id trust what they report.

    I mean theres people that think the earth is flat, even with proof they choose to ignore it. Let me put it this way, i have no need to prove anything to you. You're entitled to your own opinion.
  • My goal is to get a better experience and to feel like im in control of the game i purchased. Theres no other reason i would want to post about this if i didnt feel strongly that there is something wrong.
  • When I lose I want it to be because the other guy was better or played better than me not because his AI played perfect while mine wandered aimlessly....or because his team was much faster than mine despite speed ratings.....or because my AI goalie faced only 5 shots but let 4 in........Etc etc etc....whatever is causing it they need to fix it.
  • ExSnake01 wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    j0rtsu67 wrote: »
    It would be interesting to hear @NHLDev's opinion on this one.

    I spoke to our lead Gameplay engineer who has also been a lead Online engineer for some perspective before jumping into this one and confirmed that the delay that a player may experience due to different network conditions in either a P2P game or a Server based game will not impact the ai on either side. The game is running at a set update that has to remain in sync.



    For me, the input delay started after the October update.

    Same here. I had input delay on laggy games, but it didn't feel anywhere close to as noticeable as after the October update.

    While I pretty much never have lag, there are some games where my player feels a little sluggish. I wouldn't say fat man lag, just slightly sluggish. Like my player was hopped up on cough medicine or whatever lol. Weirdly enough, this appeared for me in the October update as well.

    That's part of it for sure. Maybe because you're on the east coast it's a lot more mild than over where I live.
  • EA_Roger
    1470 posts EA Community Manager
    Removed a couple of comments here and in all honesty I've been hesitant to remove a lot more. The reason being that we are lucky enough to have devs in here to begin with and I'd like it to stay that way.

    You are free to disagree with the developer if you want, even though as a player myself I'm not exactly sure why people would assume a game developer is straight up lying about his own game.

    You can debate with them as they may have a different perception of the game however making comments along the lines of them not knowing anything about their game or not playing is ludicrous. It also derails interesting conversations into senseless rants. There is no way any dev would develop a game he hasn't played or develop a game without understanding the audience itself.

    Just remain constructive if you are in disagreement with anyone here, players included. If you find that someone is being offensive in here don't call them out, DM me or flag their comments. If you take matters into your own hands, you'll also end being sanctioned.
  • My question, as I've asked over the past several versions of this NHL series and never really got an answer, is since the Devs play and built the game, what sliders are they using to get a balanced game? I would like to play the game so it is based off the player ratings period. If I adjust the shot accuracy slider it basically washes out the player's shot accuracy rating.

    I want an even game between me and the CPU. If the CPU beats me, it's because they were just better that game not because of some "dynamic" change.

    What difficulty gives me that balance? Is it PRO? Is it All Star? Which is the balanced difficulty? Do I leave the sliders as is? Each year I ask and each year it seems to go quiet. If anyone knows the game, it's the devs. So an honest question is, what settings should be adjusted to get a balanced game play?

    IMO, if we understood this, that "dynamic" difficulty might not be such a big topic. Adjusting one slider could affect others, which gives that dynamic feel. So what can we do to keep the game balanced....?

  • Steven5470 wrote: »
    My question, as I've asked over the past several versions of this NHL series and never really got an answer, is since the Devs play and built the game, what sliders are they using to get a balanced game? I would like to play the game so it is based off the player ratings period. If I adjust the shot accuracy slider it basically washes out the player's shot accuracy rating.

    I want an even game between me and the CPU. If the CPU beats me, it's because they were just better that game not because of some "dynamic" change.

    What difficulty gives me that balance? Is it PRO? Is it All Star? Which is the balanced difficulty? Do I leave the sliders as is? Each year I ask and each year it seems to go quiet. If anyone knows the game, it's the devs. So an honest question is, what settings should be adjusted to get a balanced game play?

    IMO, if we understood this, that "dynamic" difficulty might not be such a big topic. Adjusting one slider could affect others, which gives that dynamic feel. So what can we do to keep the game balanced....?

    If you want that try all star and tune down the computer. They can pass faster, pick it up better, skate faster (I'd leave that the same just for the challenge), and shoot more accurately.
  • Sinbin
    1331 posts Member
    jake19ny wrote: »
    Fatboyee wrote: »
    There is no doubt theres logic in this game that is unrelated to network connection that artificially increases control latency to call it whatever u want ( tilt/DDA/momentum ) occurring during versus online.

    Absolutely, 100% untrue. Provide evidence. Seriously - to say there's "no doubt" is an absolute fabrication. You have no clue whatsoever as to what you're talking about. This is NOT a personal attack. I am just pointing out that you're making a claim without any proof. None. That's not an attack (for the mods out there) I am just challenging you to provide EVIDENCE for your claims.

    Absolutely 100% something is wrong....I don’t know what it is but something happens that a large amount of users are experiencing and that alone is more evidence that something is up than there is evidence that something isn’t. The Devs have issued blanket denials on DDA and I’m giving them the benefit of the doubt on that. The ridiculous P2P connection EA uses was thought to be the culprit but the Dev has indicated that connectivity issues do not affect AI play.....they need to figure out what the problem is because it destroys the gaming experience win or lose. To say people don’t know what they are talking about is pretty ridiculous when so many describe the same thing, again win or lose.

    It's not evidence because you think something is forcing you to win that isn't related to your own skill. Yes, the devs have denied DDA exists. That's because it doesn't exist. They're being honest with you, but you refuse to believe them because you need a reason for why you keep win and lose games, but will not accept that it's due to how you play.

    You guys act like the AI players are supposed to behave exactly like their strategies dictate. They are good at that, but since most humans control their team by pulling players out of position, it doesn't let the AI really react to the strategies that are set for them. Just like one bad human on an EASHL club and lose a game for their team, the same goes when you have 4 AI skaters trying to work around the human controlled skater that is chasing for hits and flying all over the ice without worrying about positioning.

    You don't know what you're talking about. You even admitted it. You say you don't know what it is. If you knew what you were talking about you'd have proof that DDA exists. As it is now, it's something you assume is in the game because you don't like how the game plays. Have you even tried switching up your play? Have you tried using different strategies or do you just do the same thing you do every time and expect it to work and then blame DDA when it doesn't?
  • Nhl ice tilt again, The hut is no longer a dream team, these made a synergy team proof of the ice tilt and pay to win.
  • I’ll take a stab at this theory as to why your AI seems to have trouble when experiencing lag. This is all based on theory so by no means is it correct, but due to the extensive time played offline and based on information from other EA games, I feel as if this theory is at least an educated guess.

    So, knowing that the Madden PC community has found that every object in Madden is essentially teathered to the ball in some sort of way, I feel like NHL has the same sort of coding.

    When playing offline NHL, do you notice that the AI team “anticipates” your passes by reading your controller input and somewhat naturally but unnaturally steps up to pick that pass off? If you haven’t, take a bit to play offline and pay close attention when you’re retrieving a puck. If you gain possession, curl your stick and hold LS towards a teammate for a second or two, you’ll notice the AI forechecker will drift into that passing lane magically. I don’t mind the feature, I think it makes you think more as a human which is always fun, but this fact sets up my theory so I needed to explain the situation.

    Another teathering example is in the defensive zone. We’ve all noticed our AI, especially when covering the left-right point, randomly come over to our side and leave the weak-side Dman open right? That’s because the AI is seeing your location, determining that you’re out of position (according to the AI, not real-world hockey) and therefore comes over to “cover” for you.

    So knowing how much input the AI is reading-in when it comes to user position, user input, is it any surprise that when you’re lagging you’re sending delayed inputs which messes up your AI’s logic? I feel like this is the most realistic and logical explanation for these “DDA” experiences. Your AI is being given faulty information (your inputs) to make decisions because of your lag, therefore your AI is constantly “covering” for you as it thinks you’re always out of position.

    Obviously it’s just a theory, but what do you DDA guys think about this? This would explain “DDA” in every game mode requiring an internet connection right? Any amount of delay fatman lag to straight-up choppiness could be enough to cause faulty inputs which in-turn makes your AI act inappropriately due to the faulty data it’s receiving.
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