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Reverting back to previous patches

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  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    Bold: As for the AI, I think y'all have it fine now in that AI defenders won't hit, poke, lift, or do anything without a human taking control. I think allowing a human to bump a puck carrier off the puck is fine. Coupled with AI that won't do anything (like they are now), is a fair compromise. I take it y'all don't feel it would be?

    Italics: Is there no way to change it so if you're standing still or going slow, a hit from behind will bump you off the puck (ie dancing), but if you're streaking or speed bursting away a hit from behind wouldn't affect you (i.e. breakaway).

    I feel like the faster a puck carrier is moving away from the hit, the less it should affect the carrier. Whereas going slowly or standing still would make you more vulnerable. This would solve the breakaway issue, and the dancing issue.

    So:

    A--><--B = big hit
    A-->B = normal hit
    A-->B-> = bump off puck
    A->B-> = stumble but keep puck
    A->B--> = no effect

    A is defense, B is puck carrier, length of arrow is speed of player, and direction of arrow head is direction of skating

    Do you know what I'm trying to get across? I can explain more too if I'm not being super clear.

    That is how it works. That is why we use relative speed when it comes to the speed part of the calculation.

    It is obviously more granular than that as there aren't just two speeds a player can be moving so it can take the exact relative speed into the calculation along with the attributes of the players, preparedness/intent of the players in the actions (i.e. gliding vs deking, incidental contact vs a purposeful body check, etc.) and the angle the hit is being thrown to relative to the checkers velocity and the angle the player receiving the hit is behind hit towards relative to their own facing.

    So a player getting hit that is just coasting in a glide from their direct front, away from the puck and their center of mass towards their heels is the easiest to knock off balance and it works itself around to the toughest which would be a hit from behind pushing them towards the puck and their center of mass. That becomes easier or harder depending on the size of the players, their relative attributes and the relative speed of the collision.

    The change we made was the factor that contributes to the angle of the hit relative to the center of mass so that it isn't as easy to go into a full stumble when getting pushed from the direct back, towards the puck and your center of mass. So it now takes a higher relative speed and/or a bigger difference between the players to create the same outcome as before the change.

    As you have seen, many in the community think skaters should accelerate faster and be even more agile, but their quickness when turning and accelerating away in those moments in the corners right now is what allows them to really lower the relative speed in a collision and thus easily shrug off those checks from behind. That is why as a defender, it is important to get to the front of a player more often or at least the side so that you are pushing them off the puck and away from their center of mass and using your own speed more often towards them and not letting them turn away and lower that relative speed.
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    Bold: As for the AI, I think y'all have it fine now in that AI defenders won't hit, poke, lift, or do anything without a human taking control. I think allowing a human to bump a puck carrier off the puck is fine. Coupled with AI that won't do anything (like they are now), is a fair compromise. I take it y'all don't feel it would be?

    Italics: Is there no way to change it so if you're standing still or going slow, a hit from behind will bump you off the puck (ie dancing), but if you're streaking or speed bursting away a hit from behind wouldn't affect you (i.e. breakaway).

    I feel like the faster a puck carrier is moving away from the hit, the less it should affect the carrier. Whereas going slowly or standing still would make you more vulnerable. This would solve the breakaway issue, and the dancing issue.

    So:

    A--><--B = big hit
    A-->B = normal hit
    A-->B-> = bump off puck
    A->B-> = stumble but keep puck
    A->B--> = no effect

    A is defense, B is puck carrier, length of arrow is speed of player, and direction of arrow head is direction of skating

    Do you know what I'm trying to get across? I can explain more too if I'm not being super clear.

    That is how it works. That is why we use relative speed when it comes to the speed part of the calculation.

    It is obviously more granular than that as there aren't just two speeds a player can be moving so it can take the exact relative speed into the calculation along with the attributes of the players, preparedness/intent of the players in the actions (i.e. gliding vs deking, incidental contact vs a purposeful body check, etc.) and the angle the hit is being thrown to relative to the checkers velocity and the angle the player receiving the hit is behind hit towards relative to their own facing.

    So a player getting hit that is just coasting in a glide from their direct front, away from the puck and their center of mass towards their heels is the easiest to knock off balance and it works itself around to the toughest which would be a hit from behind pushing them towards the puck and their center of mass. That becomes easier or harder depending on the size of the players, their relative attributes and the relative speed of the collision.

    The change we made was the factor that contributes to the angle of the hit relative to the center of mass so that it isn't as easy to go into a full stumble when getting pushed from the direct back, towards the puck and your center of mass. So it now takes a higher relative speed and/or a bigger difference between the players to create the same outcome as before the change.

    As you have seen, many in the community think skaters should accelerate faster and be even more agile, but their quickness when turning and accelerating away in those moments in the corners right now is what allows them to really lower the relative speed in a collision and thus easily shrug off those checks from behind. That is why as a defender, it is important to get to the front of a player more often or at least the side so that you are pushing them off the puck and away from their center of mass and using your own speed more often towards them and not letting them turn away and lower that relative speed.

    I feel like we are on the same page, which is good. So what you're saying is that basically y'all moved the slider on how much the relative speeds affect the likelihood to lose the puck?

    Can Tuner 1.04 not just split the difference between 1.00 and 1.03? Make it easier to cause a stumble than it is now in 1.03, but not as easy as 1.00? I think the correction to 1.00 stumbling has gone way too far - but in the correct direction. It overcorrected the problem and created a new one - it's far too difficult to bump someone off the puck than it should be.

    If 1.00 is at 1, and 1.03 is at 10, make 1.04 at 3 or 4?
  • LeFury_27 wrote: »
    The moves you can do to score every time on the breakaway are real annoying. Before it was a challenge to score on breakaways but now you can score 100% of the time. I remember playing before and pulling of creative dekes like the datsyuk, it felt like you actually did something good. Scoring now is boring, it's too easy. Earning a goal on a good play or deke was a big part of the fun, that's gone now. I don't know why anyone would want it to be that easy to score, that just makes it so boring,

    And when you think about it, making it that easy to score it gives people more reason to puck rag in 3's. Draw a trip and you score every time.

    Really do hope you guys make shoving players off the puck possible again, it really made the game 10x better. It forced players to make quick passes and ragging wasn't possible. I use to find it annoying to be shoved off breakaways from behind, but ragging is way worse than that. If you can balance it so you can shove players off the puck but not easily on breakaways, that would be great.

    actually there was about 5 ways in original beta release to score almost 100% of the time on breakaways. the current "meta" for break away goals is just the easiest to pull off.

    i don't really care that much about those. you give up breakaways you deserve to get scored on. and this is only a problem with CPU goalies. so many people play this game so badly because they rely on CPU goalies and Dmen to cover all their lazy play.

    but i would like it if they cleaned up ai goalies so they stop being so exploitable so easily. i just hate how it happens. too many people score short side, so they make them tougher there. that means they are slow to react to puck sliding side to side for 1 timer or fast cut across goalie face to beat them far side. so then they make them react faster. then people realize if you skate in like you are doing that but then pull it backhand and shoot it short side its pretty easy goal. so they turn them into super men that can stop perfect 1 timers with insane reactions yet if you do the exploit they are like spiderman on steroids and they cover both sides magically.

    to me the fix is for them to play like top NHL goalies. Cover short side as much as possible making it difficult but not impossible. mostly if they come in close they go down opening up small gap on top corner and if someone somehow snipes that perfect and they dont glove it, goal. Then make it so they react quickly to anything moving to far side but they can't stop everything.

    but really the key is to play some dang defense. play 6s clubs between 2 good teams or even 5s with CPU goalie and you won't see this problem EVER. i think some of these problems are only real problems for people playing 3s and such where there is just way too much open space and breakaways. puck hog, protect, draw penalty shot, exploit CPU goalie. that seems to be the formula for success in 3s
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    Bold: As for the AI, I think y'all have it fine now in that AI defenders won't hit, poke, lift, or do anything without a human taking control. I think allowing a human to bump a puck carrier off the puck is fine. Coupled with AI that won't do anything (like they are now), is a fair compromise. I take it y'all don't feel it would be?

    Italics: Is there no way to change it so if you're standing still or going slow, a hit from behind will bump you off the puck (ie dancing), but if you're streaking or speed bursting away a hit from behind wouldn't affect you (i.e. breakaway).

    I feel like the faster a puck carrier is moving away from the hit, the less it should affect the carrier. Whereas going slowly or standing still would make you more vulnerable. This would solve the breakaway issue, and the dancing issue.

    So:

    A--><--B = big hit
    A-->B = normal hit
    A-->B-> = bump off puck
    A->B-> = stumble but keep puck
    A->B--> = no effect

    A is defense, B is puck carrier, length of arrow is speed of player, and direction of arrow head is direction of skating

    Do you know what I'm trying to get across? I can explain more too if I'm not being super clear.

    That is how it works. That is why we use relative speed when it comes to the speed part of the calculation.

    It is obviously more granular than that as there aren't just two speeds a player can be moving so it can take the exact relative speed into the calculation along with the attributes of the players, preparedness/intent of the players in the actions (i.e. gliding vs deking, incidental contact vs a purposeful body check, etc.) and the angle the hit is being thrown to relative to the checkers velocity and the angle the player receiving the hit is behind hit towards relative to their own facing.

    So a player getting hit that is just coasting in a glide from their direct front, away from the puck and their center of mass towards their heels is the easiest to knock off balance and it works itself around to the toughest which would be a hit from behind pushing them towards the puck and their center of mass. That becomes easier or harder depending on the size of the players, their relative attributes and the relative speed of the collision.

    The change we made was the factor that contributes to the angle of the hit relative to the center of mass so that it isn't as easy to go into a full stumble when getting pushed from the direct back, towards the puck and your center of mass. So it now takes a higher relative speed and/or a bigger difference between the players to create the same outcome as before the change.

    As you have seen, many in the community think skaters should accelerate faster and be even more agile, but their quickness when turning and accelerating away in those moments in the corners right now is what allows them to really lower the relative speed in a collision and thus easily shrug off those checks from behind. That is why as a defender, it is important to get to the front of a player more often or at least the side so that you are pushing them off the puck and away from their center of mass and using your own speed more often towards them and not letting them turn away and lower that relative speed.

    I feel like we are on the same page, which is good. So what you're saying is that basically y'all moved the slider on how much the relative speeds affect the likelihood to lose the puck?

    Can Tuner 1.04 not just split the difference between 1.00 and 1.03? Make it easier to cause a stumble than it is now in 1.03, but not as easy as 1.00? I think the correction to 1.00 stumbling has gone way too far - but in the correct direction. It overcorrected the problem and created a new one - it's far too difficult to bump someone off the puck than it should be.

    If 1.00 is at 1, and 1.03 is at 10, make 1.04 at 3 or 4?

    i think that is what's really needed. something in the middle.

    i play medium sized quick players right now and i either can't do anything when i hit or i kill someone. I haven't had a 5min penalty in like 3 years of playing mostly TWFs. I get about 1 a night as a sniper. when i play as PWF for fun i have no problem hitting but it still feels like weak hits that have almost no affect then all the sudden it's like the guy was hit by a car. And it's all about speed. I think most complaints are coming from people that are playing as big strong guys and they expect to just "push" people off the puck but in my experience strength does nothing without a decent amount of momentum. And thats been the big change. Especially when big guys stopped being able to skate like johnny gaudreau at some point in beta.

    I think we need something in the middle for sure. smaller quicker skaters should be able to outskate bigger guys but in the case that they get caught holding on the puck when they shouldn't they should be knocked off the puck for sure.

    also what i would really like to see is pucks that actually get away from the puck carrier. so often "dislodging" a puck even on a poke check, often means they just lose the puck for half a second and then they regain possession. When I check someone (stick or hitting) i want to see the puck fly away from the two of them like in real life. Maybe for 1 second both players cant pick it up...and for gods sake fix the puck physics that almost always causes the puck to just stop moving when a player loses it. every time someone carries the puck in and gets checked the puck should fly down into the corner, not just sit there. unless the skater stops movement before getting hit. but i think the problem is the hit causes the carrier to stop moving "THEN" the puck comes loose so it goes no where.
  • NHLDev wrote: »

    That is how it works. That is why we use relative speed when it comes to the speed part of the calculation.

    It is obviously more granular than that as there aren't just two speeds a player can be moving so it can take the exact relative speed into the calculation along with the attributes of the players, preparedness/intent of the players in the actions (i.e. gliding vs deking, incidental contact vs a purposeful body check, etc.) and the angle the hit is being thrown to relative to the checkers velocity and the angle the player receiving the hit is behind hit towards relative to their own facing.

    So a player getting hit that is just coasting in a glide from their direct front, away from the puck and their center of mass towards their heels is the easiest to knock off balance and it works itself around to the toughest which would be a hit from behind pushing them towards the puck and their center of mass. That becomes easier or harder depending on the size of the players, their relative attributes and the relative speed of the collision.

    The change we made was the factor that contributes to the angle of the hit relative to the center of mass so that it isn't as easy to go into a full stumble when getting pushed from the direct back, towards the puck and your center of mass. So it now takes a higher relative speed and/or a bigger difference between the players to create the same outcome as before the change.

    As you have seen, many in the community think skaters should accelerate faster and be even more agile, but their quickness when turning and accelerating away in those moments in the corners right now is what allows them to really lower the relative speed in a collision and thus easily shrug off those checks from behind. That is why as a defender, it is important to get to the front of a player more often or at least the side so that you are pushing them off the puck and away from their center of mass and using your own speed more often towards them and not letting them turn away and lower that relative speed.

    This all make a lot of sense... In theory. But when playing the game, things are not that clear. You can sort of roll off any hit, as long as you are in gliding mode.
    Here's an example where I am skating into a forechecker, coming at me at full speed.

    Somehow, I can glide away from that incoming hit. To stop skating and go into a glide, in that situation should turn me into a sitting duck, easily knocked off the puck.
    Also, when I move into the offensive zone, I once again stop skating, go into gliding mode, and just glides through my opponents entire defence.

    Here's one more, where a nice bodycheck with speed is getting nullified, because I am in gliding mode:


    You're out of options and don't know what to do? Just go into gliding mode:


    When in gliding mode, you're also in perfect balance, which makes you pick up the puck faster:


    This is what's being exploited every game now. Clearly, that change you made to the factor that contributes to the angle of the hit, relative to the center of mass, had a huge impact.
    Probably because being in gliding mode makes your "center of mass" quite huge...?

    For what it's worth, I agree with @GOW_LIKE_A_BOSS. A happy medium would be a lot better, and that medium should be closer to how it was pre 1.03.
  • SpillGal wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »

    That is how it works. That is why we use relative speed when it comes to the speed part of the calculation.

    It is obviously more granular than that as there aren't just two speeds a player can be moving so it can take the exact relative speed into the calculation along with the attributes of the players, preparedness/intent of the players in the actions (i.e. gliding vs deking, incidental contact vs a purposeful body check, etc.) and the angle the hit is being thrown to relative to the checkers velocity and the angle the player receiving the hit is behind hit towards relative to their own facing.

    So a player getting hit that is just coasting in a glide from their direct front, away from the puck and their center of mass towards their heels is the easiest to knock off balance and it works itself around to the toughest which would be a hit from behind pushing them towards the puck and their center of mass. That becomes easier or harder depending on the size of the players, their relative attributes and the relative speed of the collision.

    The change we made was the factor that contributes to the angle of the hit relative to the center of mass so that it isn't as easy to go into a full stumble when getting pushed from the direct back, towards the puck and your center of mass. So it now takes a higher relative speed and/or a bigger difference between the players to create the same outcome as before the change.

    As you have seen, many in the community think skaters should accelerate faster and be even more agile, but their quickness when turning and accelerating away in those moments in the corners right now is what allows them to really lower the relative speed in a collision and thus easily shrug off those checks from behind. That is why as a defender, it is important to get to the front of a player more often or at least the side so that you are pushing them off the puck and away from their center of mass and using your own speed more often towards them and not letting them turn away and lower that relative speed.

    This all make a lot of sense... In theory. But when playing the game, things are not that clear. You can sort of roll off any hit, as long as you are in gliding mode.
    Here's an example where I am skating into a forechecker, coming at me at full speed.

    Somehow, I can glide away from that incoming hit. To stop skating and go into a glide, in that situation should turn me into a sitting duck, easily knocked off the puck.
    Also, when I move into the offensive zone, I once again stop skating, go into gliding mode, and just glides through my opponents entire defence.

    Here's one more, where a nice bodycheck with speed is getting nullified, because I am in gliding mode:


    You're out of options and don't know what to do? Just go into gliding mode:


    When in gliding mode, you're also in perfect balance, which makes you pick up the puck faster:


    This is what's being exploited every game now. Clearly, that change you made to the factor that contributes to the angle of the hit, relative to the center of mass, had a huge impact.
    Probably because being in gliding mode makes your "center of mass" quite huge...?

    For what it's worth, I agree with @GOW_LIKE_A_BOSS. A happy medium would be a lot better, and that medium should be closer to how it was pre 1.03.

    These are excellent videos that really put the problems in full view. I especially like the ones where a defender skating at full speed just stops dead when trying to deliver a hit if the carrier just turns his back to the defender while in a slow glide. Tuner 1.04 needs to be in between 1.00 and 1.03, but closer to 1.00
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    edited November 2018
    SpillGal wrote: »
    This all make a lot of sense... In theory. But when playing the game, things are not that clear. You can sort of roll off any hit, as long as you are in gliding mode.
    Here's an example where I am skating into a forechecker, coming at me at full speed.

    Somehow, I can glide away from that incoming hit. To stop skating and go into a glide, in that situation should turn me into a sitting duck, easily knocked off the puck.
    Also, when I move into the offensive zone, I once again stop skating, go into gliding mode, and just glides through my opponents entire defence.
    Thanks for the videos, it is great to speak to them specifically. Although when gliding you are more balanced than when skating, it is more that you turned and really lowered the relative speed of the hit in this scenario that limited the outcome. A player probably wouldn't throw a hit anymore in this scenario in the real world as he got the offensive player to retreat and stop their forward momentum. He would then challenge the player, taking away a passing lane and moving to an angle that forces the offensive player to skate somewhere they don't want to go. It is possible, depending on the size and strength differnces in the players that the defender could shove the player in this situation to distrupt their glide and force them to quickly pick the puck back up again rather than gliding as smooth -- and there is a tolerance in our game where that would be the case too but Karlsson wasn't the player that was going to do that.
    SpillGal wrote: »
    Here's one more, where a nice bodycheck with speed is getting nullified, because I am in gliding mode:
    This one is because the ai doesn't perform defensive actions in Online VS or HUT so the skater just skates into you with incidental contact and not with an attempted hit. It is possible that incidental contact should trigger a bigger impact but the current tuning accounts for the subtle avoids people would do when it comes to incidental contacts as well and in other situations, we wouldn't want to see players stumble more. Plus, you can attempt to hit, if you want a bigger result and if your opponent took control of his player and asked for a hit, the outcome would probably have been different.
    SpillGal wrote: »
    You're out of options and don't know what to do? Just go into gliding mode:
    I don't think this one would have changed much at all from the tuning since it is from the side. But it is fair to say that subjectively you would expect this player to go into a bigger reaction than a stumble. There is a threshold depending on the player size/attributes and the relative speed of that hit on top of the preparedness for the player.
    SpillGal wrote: »
    When in gliding mode, you're also in perfect balance, which makes you pick up the puck faster:
    This isn't a fact. We have improved puck pickups and decreased windows for reaction time delay due to the call outs for pickups. This can create situations where players can pickup pucks faster if they have blended out of their stumble and are there and capable.
    SpillGal wrote: »
    This is what's being exploited every game now. Clearly, that change you made to the factor that contributes to the angle of the hit, relative to the center of mass, had a huge impact.
    Probably because being in gliding mode makes your "center of mass" quite huge...?

    For what it's worth, I agree with @GOW_LIKE_A_BOSS. A happy medium would be a lot better, and that medium should be closer to how it was pre 1.03.
    Understood. The players actual center of mass is a fixed point and in a lot of the cases you show, you are being hit towards it which creates the need for a bigger collision to throw you off balance and gliding is more prepared/controlled than performing an action. That has always been the case.

    At a high level, players try to hit in our game in a lot of situations that players wouldn't in actual hockey and would instead play positional and use their stick/body to steer the player. It is hard for people to play the videogame with patience though from what I have seen from players and heard in their conversations.

    We have tried tuning on our side and have got some good results but we also lose a few of the things we were trying to solve so as I said before, it is a fine line but we are still looking at it.
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    SpillGal wrote: »
    This all make a lot of sense... In theory. But when playing the game, things are not that clear. You can sort of roll off any hit, as long as you are in gliding mode.
    Here's an example where I am skating into a forechecker, coming at me at full speed.

    Somehow, I can glide away from that incoming hit. To stop skating and go into a glide, in that situation should turn me into a sitting duck, easily knocked off the puck.
    Also, when I move into the offensive zone, I once again stop skating, go into gliding mode, and just glides through my opponents entire defence.
    Thanks for the videos, it is great to speak to them specifically. Although when gliding you are more balanced than when skating, it is more that you turned and really lowered the relative speed of the hit in this scenario that limited the outcome. A player probably wouldn't throw a hit anymore in this scenario in the real world as he got the offensive player to retreat and stop their forward momentum. He would then challenge the player, taking away a passing lane and moving to an angle that forces the offensive player to skate somewhere they don't want to go. It is possible, depending on the size and strength differnces in the players that the defender could shove the player in this situation to distrupt their glide and force them to quickly pick the puck back up again rather than gliding as smooth -- and there is a tolerance in our game where that would be the case too but Karlsson wasn't the player that was going to do that.
    SpillGal wrote: »
    Here's one more, where a nice bodycheck with speed is getting nullified, because I am in gliding mode:
    This one is because the ai doesn't perform defensive actions in Online VS or HUT so the skater just skates into you with incidental contact and not with an attempted hit. It is possible that incidental contact should trigger a bigger impact but the current tuning accounts for the subtle avoids people would do when it comes to incidental contacts as well and in other situations, we wouldn't want to see players stumble more. Plus, you can attempt to hit, if you want a bigger result and if your opponent took control of his player and asked for a hit, the outcome would probably have been different.
    SpillGal wrote: »
    You're out of options and don't know what to do? Just go into gliding mode:
    I don't think this one would have changed much at all from the tuning since it is from the side. But it is fair to say that subjectively you would expect this player to go into a bigger reaction than a stumble. There is a threshold depending on the player size/attributes and the relative speed of that hit on top of the preparedness for the player.
    SpillGal wrote: »
    When in gliding mode, you're also in perfect balance, which makes you pick up the puck faster:
    This isn't a fact. We have improved puck pickups and decreased windows for reaction time delay due to the call outs for pickups. This can create situations where players can pickup pucks faster if they have blended out of their stumble and are there and capable.
    SpillGal wrote: »
    This is what's being exploited every game now. Clearly, that change you made to the factor that contributes to the angle of the hit, relative to the center of mass, had a huge impact.
    Probably because being in gliding mode makes your "center of mass" quite huge...?

    For what it's worth, I agree with @GOW_LIKE_A_BOSS. A happy medium would be a lot better, and that medium should be closer to how it was pre 1.03.
    Understood. The players actual center of mass is a fixed point and in a lot of the cases you show, you are being hit towards it which creates the need for a bigger collision to throw you off balance and gliding is more prepared/controlled than performing an action. That has always been the case.

    At a high level, players try to hit in our game in a lot of situations that players wouldn't in actual hockey and would instead play positional and use their stick/body to steer the player. It is hard for people to play the videogame with patience though from what I have seen from players and heard in their conversations.

    We have tried tuning on our side and have got some good results but we also lose a few of the things we were trying to solve so as I said before, it is a fine line but we are still looking at it.

    This is 100% true, and at least for me, we go for the hit because the stick checking is far too risky. Stick lifts result in penalties far too often (they were great in the beta), and most importantly, the Defensive Skill Stick is a trip machine. In real life, your stick banging against a carrier's shin pad is not a trip. But if you sweep your stick with DSS, you can - and will - frequently cause a trip.

    People go for hits in situations where NHL players would use their stick simply because the defensive stick tools we have are not sufficiently predictable or reliable. Having 1.00 hitting made defense realistic, even if the method of defending - hitting over stick work - was not.

    I think the DSS needs more automation, to where you can still use it manually, but just holding the DSS button - without using the right thumbstick to direct it - would mirror the puck. If the DSS auto tracked the puck, such as if activating DSS placed your stick in the nearest passing or shooting lane - instead of just out front - this would be great. Also, to avoid exploiting by the offense, make DSS incapable of causing a trip unless you use it to manually poke - as opposed to just mirror the puck.

    In other words, we go for hits when NHLers would use their sticks because our stick tools are not up to par with NHLers. Automated puck tracking with DSS would be an enormous step forward as far as defensive tools are concerned.

    Ideally, activating DSS would mirror the puck and place the stick between the puck and the net for a shot deflection, and manually holding it to a certain side of your player would have a high chance of deflecting a pass going by that side. As it stands now, the puck has to go exactly where you have your stick's head to deflect. Allowing a DSS in the general vicinity of a pass or shot to automatically move to deflect the shot or pass would be an amazing improvement.
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    This is 100% true, and at least for me, we go for the hit because the stick checking is far too risky. Stick lifts result in penalties far too often (they were great in the beta), and most importantly, the Defensive Skill Stick is a trip machine. In real life, your stick banging against a carrier's shin pad is not a trip. But if you sweep your stick with DSS, you can - and will - frequently cause a trip.

    People go for hits in situations where NHL players would use their stick simply because the defensive stick tools we have are not sufficiently predictable or reliable. Having 1.00 hitting made defense realistic, even if the method of defending - hitting over stick work - was not.

    I think the DSS needs more automation, to where you can still use it manually, but just holding the DSS button - without using the right thumbstick to direct it - would mirror the puck. If the DSS auto tracked the puck, such as if activating DSS placed your stick in the nearest passing or shooting lane - instead of just out front - this would be great. Also, to avoid exploiting by the offense, make DSS incapable of causing a trip unless you use it to manually poke - as opposed to just mirror the puck.

    In other words, we go for hits when NHLers would use their sticks because our stick tools are not up to par with NHLers. Automated puck tracking with DSS would be an enormous step forward as far as defensive tools are concerned.

    Ideally, activating DSS would mirror the puck and place the stick between the puck and the net for a shot deflection, and manually holding it to a certain side of your player would have a high chance of deflecting a pass going by that side. As it stands now, the puck has to go exactly where you have your stick's head to deflect. Allowing a DSS in the general vicinity of a pass or shot to automatically move to deflect the shot or pass would be an amazing improvement.
    I don't think you would get majority agreement on the stick lifts being great in the Beta. They were more successful but there wasn't much accountability at all. There are pieces about them now that are more harsh than we would like but the balance overall feels much better.

    DSS actually does take into account that a shin pad would just push it away, even thought we don't handle that physics interaction. If you hit a single leg swiping outside to in, or hold it out and the player glides in towards the stick where their outside of their leg hits it first, it won't cause a trip. If you swipe with less control through both legs or leave your stick out there to have the players both legs go through it, then it will cause a trip. Swiping inside a single leg outwards will also cause a trip, which makes more sense as well.

    We also made sure we gave players control over when you are doing something forceful or not, so the blend in/out of a poke or the defensive skill stick won't trigger a trip as it reflects not being as firm on your stick. So if you have your DSS out to block a lane and then realize the player has protected the puck and you aren't going to get puck or stick first, you can let go and retract your stick and even if during that time, the stick crosses a threshold that would otherwise cause a trip, it doesn't count it.

    When we first implemented DSS, we did it as you said where it would mirror the puck but we made improvements after that to add a skill gap as well as give more manual control. A player doesn't necessarily always want to mirror the puck. They sometimes want to keep a stick in a lane or where the puck was but not be forced to follow the puck and then possibly have that result in a trip.

    So the initial location of the poke and dss is towards the future position of where the puck will be relative to where the puck carrier currently has it and where that will be in the future based on the amount of frames the stick takes to be extended to the expected puck contact point. DSS, if held out, will track the puck inside a certain amount of degrees of tolerance to the left and right of that position, which is what helps you challenge a shot to deflect it, etc. but you should only be pressing the poke/hold the dss once the puck is in that location to start. If after that, the puck carrier moves the puck to a new location, the dss won't follow and that is a good thing for player control.

    A lot of what you speak about is thought of in the development of these features and a lot of thought goes into the control we want players to have, the skill gap that will result and the overall offensive and defensive balance that will result. We may not agree on the final outcomes but definitely want you to know some of the details that go into those decisions.
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    This is 100% true, and at least for me, we go for the hit because the stick checking is far too risky. Stick lifts result in penalties far too often (they were great in the beta), and most importantly, the Defensive Skill Stick is a trip machine. In real life, your stick banging against a carrier's shin pad is not a trip. But if you sweep your stick with DSS, you can - and will - frequently cause a trip.

    People go for hits in situations where NHL players would use their stick simply because the defensive stick tools we have are not sufficiently predictable or reliable. Having 1.00 hitting made defense realistic, even if the method of defending - hitting over stick work - was not.

    I think the DSS needs more automation, to where you can still use it manually, but just holding the DSS button - without using the right thumbstick to direct it - would mirror the puck. If the DSS auto tracked the puck, such as if activating DSS placed your stick in the nearest passing or shooting lane - instead of just out front - this would be great. Also, to avoid exploiting by the offense, make DSS incapable of causing a trip unless you use it to manually poke - as opposed to just mirror the puck.

    In other words, we go for hits when NHLers would use their sticks because our stick tools are not up to par with NHLers. Automated puck tracking with DSS would be an enormous step forward as far as defensive tools are concerned.

    Ideally, activating DSS would mirror the puck and place the stick between the puck and the net for a shot deflection, and manually holding it to a certain side of your player would have a high chance of deflecting a pass going by that side. As it stands now, the puck has to go exactly where you have your stick's head to deflect. Allowing a DSS in the general vicinity of a pass or shot to automatically move to deflect the shot or pass would be an amazing improvement.
    I don't think you would get majority agreement on the stick lifts being great in the Beta. They were more successful but there wasn't much accountability at all. There are pieces about them now that are more harsh than we would like but the balance overall feels much better.

    DSS actually does take into account that a shin pad would just push it away, even thought we don't handle that physics interaction. If you hit a single leg swiping outside to in, or hold it out and the player glides in towards the stick where their outside of their leg hits it first, it won't cause a trip. If you swipe with less control through both legs or leave your stick out there to have the players both legs go through it, then it will cause a trip. Swiping inside a single leg outwards will also cause a trip, which makes more sense as well.

    We also made sure we gave players control over when you are doing something forceful or not, so the blend in/out of a poke or the defensive skill stick won't trigger a trip as it reflects not being as firm on your stick. So if you have your DSS out to block a lane and then realize the player has protected the puck and you aren't going to get puck or stick first, you can let go and retract your stick and even if during that time, the stick crosses a threshold that would otherwise cause a trip, it doesn't count it.

    When we first implemented DSS, we did it as you said where it would mirror the puck but we made improvements after that to add a skill gap as well as give more manual control. A player doesn't necessarily always want to mirror the puck. They sometimes want to keep a stick in a lane or where the puck was but not be forced to follow the puck and then possibly have that result in a trip.

    So the initial location of the poke and dss is towards the future position of where the puck will be relative to where the puck carrier currently has it and where that will be in the future based on the amount of frames the stick takes to be extended to the expected puck contact point. DSS, if held out, will track the puck inside a certain amount of degrees of tolerance to the left and right of that position, which is what helps you challenge a shot to deflect it, etc. but you should only be pressing the poke/hold the dss once the puck is in that location to start. If after that, the puck carrier moves the puck to a new location, the dss won't follow and that is a good thing for player control.

    A lot of what you speak about is thought of in the development of these features and a lot of thought goes into the control we want players to have, the skill gap that will result and the overall offensive and defensive balance that will result. We may not agree on the final outcomes but definitely want you to know some of the details that go into those decisions.

    I guess it is what it is, but to me this just seems discouraging. Overall in 1.03 it's just much harder to play defense than it is to play offense - which is the opposite of real life. The beta and earlier tuners had it easier to play defense than to play offense - mirroring real life.

    I use the DSS all the time and rarely get any benefit from it. I can almost never get the DSS to deflect anything, and I routinely have my stick in a passing lane only to have the puck passed between my stick and my body.

    Not to mention having even slight lag will make using the DSS nearly impossible without an auto-tracking.

    I just think mirroring a carrier's stick with my stick shouldn't be a key skill gap area for defense. The skill gap should be against the offense to have to do something other than just passing the puck through me.
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    A player probably wouldn't throw a hit anymore in this scenario in the real world as he got the offensive player to retreat and stop their forward momentum. He would then challenge the player, taking away a passing lane and moving to an angle that forces the offensive player to skate somewhere they don't want to go.
    First of all, thank you for coming back with an answer so quickly. It is great to have this opportunity to discuss game mechanics with Devs. OK, back to the grit! :wink:
    The problem with the statement I quoted over here, is the length of a missed hit animation coupled with the agility you get from gliding. Meaning, when a defender initiates a bodycheck, a gliding puck carrier can easily avoid that with right stick to the side, left stick away from the hit.
    This is a cop out, which will end up in the puck carrier maintaining control and most likely, having gained a favorable position on the defender, still recovering from that lengthy checking animation.
    Total result is that the game is way too forgiving to puck carriers skating themselves into (what should've been) problems.
    SpillGal wrote: »
    Here's one more, where a nice bodycheck with speed is getting nullified, because I am in gliding mode:
    NHLDev wrote: »
    This one is because the ai doesn't perform defensive actions in Online VS or HUT so the skater just skates into you with incidental contact and not with an attempted hit. It is possible that incidental contact should trigger a bigger impact but the current tuning accounts for the subtle avoids people would do when it comes to incidental contacts as well and in other situations, we wouldn't want to see players stumble more. Plus, you can attempt to hit, if you want a bigger result and if your opponent took control of his player and asked for a hit, the outcome would probably have been different.

    OK, that's fair enough. I'm no fan of making the AI inept on defence. But I guess that is an attempt to make people play D, instead of just skill zone?
    I think you would have more success countering skill zoning, if you made AI to play their positions with some accountability, gave them human-like reaction speeds, and let them do some aggressive moves, leaving openings for attackers to utilize.

    SpillGal wrote: »
    You're out of options and don't know what to do? Just go into gliding mode:
    NHLDev wrote: »
    I don't think this one would have changed much at all from the tuning since it is from the side. But it is fair to say that subjectively you would expect this player to go into a bigger reaction than a stumble. There is a threshold depending on the player size/attributes and the relative speed of that hit on top of the preparedness for the player.

    I wholeheartedly agree. This is not something that have changed with the tuners. It's more of a problem that have plagued this series for several years. Hold your stick out to the side, and you're invincible.
    I'm not trying to troll or being disrespectful, but to me, this is one of the main problems with this game.
    SpillGal wrote: »
    When in gliding mode, you're also in perfect balance, which makes you pick up the puck faster:
    NHLDev wrote: »
    This isn't a fact. We have improved puck pickups and decreased windows for reaction time delay due to the call outs for pickups. This can create situations where players can pickup pucks faster if they have blended out of their stumble and are there and capable.
    Exactly! "if they have blended out of their stumble". Which the defender never has, because he has just made a move, to try and break up the attack.
    Now, one could say that this is luring the defence to make a move, or you are outsmarting them. But you are not, when you are skating right into a check, or gliding with three defenders surrounding you.
    SpillGal wrote: »
    This is what's being exploited every game now. Clearly, that change you made to the factor that contributes to the angle of the hit, relative to the center of mass, had a huge impact.
    Probably because being in gliding mode makes your "center of mass" quite huge...?

    For what it's worth, I agree with @GOW_LIKE_A_BOSS. A happy medium would be a lot better, and that medium should be closer to how it was pre 1.03.
    NHLDev wrote: »
    Understood. The players actual center of mass is a fixed point and in a lot of the cases you show, you are being hit towards it which creates the need for a bigger collision to throw you off balance and gliding is more prepared/controlled than performing an action. That has always been the case.

    At a high level, players try to hit in our game in a lot of situations that players wouldn't in actual hockey and would instead play positional and use their stick/body to steer the player. It is hard for people to play the videogame with patience though from what I have seen from players and heard in their conversations.

    We have tried tuning on our side and have got some good results but we also lose a few of the things we were trying to solve so as I said before, it is a fine line but we are still looking at it.

    End of the day, I think this game has way to much focus on gliding/puck protecting. I agree that you can get your body inbetween the puck and a defender, and maintain control by doing so. But when 180 pounds comes at you, with speed, standing still holding the puck far out to the side while turning your back on that truckload, is not the solution. Or, at least, it shouldn't be.
  • In the next patch (Because there will be one) could you please fix the fact that players get stuck on each other, like arms getting tangled into each other and you can't move. Real annoying, just one of the few things I'd enjoy fixed.
  • TheMajjam wrote: »
    EpiCxOwNeD wrote: »
    EpiCxOwNeD wrote: »

    Most players couldn’t adapt at the beginning of the game. When I played during the beta and early access/launch, most players were trying the same cheese garbage from 18 and getting smoked because that’s all they relayed on.

    It makes perfect sense that they would utilize the same strategies as they were used to because it's literally the same sport. Everyone so casually throws out the terms 'cheese garbage' but the reality is 'cheese garbage' is simply you letting them get those spots every time. That's just the harsh truth that nobody here seems to want to accept. It's all 'that's a cheese goal because it happens so often' rather than 'I let that guy get there too often, I need to shut it down'.

    And people DID adjust when the game came out. Some people are (clearly) still adjusting. Not everyone adjusts to these changes at the same rate.

    After tuners and updates later, playing the way you did in 18 is the way to go now though that’s not how it was the at one point. I tried abusing the backhand, forehand backhand breakaway move that plagued 18 early in the year with no success. It simply didn’t work. I got stopped every time.


    So maybe you just weren't as good at THAT move with the changes made to skating, animations, etc. But then...
    But all of a sudden, after a few tunes and updates it works an absurd amount times now. When I mean absurd, I mean every time now. So in opinion and as well as my club mates, it’s not that people adapted, it’s because they didn’t or couldn’t and now the goalies are sieves.

    So you chalk this up solely to tuners and not in any way to your own ability to adapt and your own experience with the new changes. You could have already adapted the muscle memory to the changes made and so now you saw more success - but you chalk it up to 'tuners and updates'. Just because those tuners adjusted things you don't like (even though I don't believe tuners impacted the game THAT much) you just say, 'aw yea the tuners messed it up'.

    Like maybe, just maybe - the competition your playing against has gotten better and has adapted to these changes more quickly and more efficiently than you?




    First bold: It’s amazing how you think I let people get into the “cheese areas”. Take a look at this clip.

    https://xboxdvr.com/gamer/epicxowned/video/64016798

    What did i do wrong the that I, the defensemen got punshied for when it should have been the offensive player for making a move like that coming into the zone. This is one of many times where again I, the defensemen, is unable to take the puck from an offensive player because this game is geared towards offense. Why wasn’t the offensive player punished for a making a dumb move at the blue? Why was I punished?

    Second bold: No it didn’t work in the begginning of the year. Believe me. I was that guy who did it a lot in 18. A lot. So it’s not because I wasn’t good at the move, it didn’t work.

    I'm probably going to have a lot of people disagree with this comment, but....

    You played great defense until the very end in my opinion. If you stuck to your position and stayed in front of the opponent, I don't think that shot even happens. You took the puck off the stick and then started moving, maybe because you assumed you should have picked up the puck. I think this is more of a 50/50 thing. Sometimes you will pick it up, sometimes you don't. If you were to show that this is occurring every single time you were lined up with the opponent, then I think we would be having a different discussion.

    Anyways, if you're asking why were you punished, I think positioning is why. Even though you knocked the puck loose, the opponent continued skating in the direction of the loose puck and was able to pick it up because you moved out of the way.

    I really don't think this would happen if you kept the good positioning you originally had. Again, attack me if you must, but just my opinion. :s

    Yeah. I'm going to freaking disagree with you here. This sort of play happens quite a bit because we are now conditioned not to poke, stick lift, or use the DSS to defend these plays when we shouldn't be afraid to do so. Even if I'm in good position to do so, I feel that any number of those tools will land me on the box or give the other team a penalty shot in 3's. Good positioning is a 50/50 reward and shouldn't be the only facet of my defense that's considered. I have had players shoot right in front of me, have had players shoot while I am blocking their shot in front of them, and them receive pass and one-timers while I'm directly in their lane and still come out the loser in those particular instances.

    Good defenders are playing with a gimped defense. That's why they are punished. You give forwards all the tools they need to succeed and you even tune the game to help them better, yet you change the entire way I play D and the game because one good poke check results in a penalty, one out of five stick lifts results in a penalty, one out of five hits from any angle around a player will result in nothing happening. You have these offensive Chara-sized players with the (slower) version of McDavid's skating ability, Crosby's deking and shooting, who refuse to be nudged at a hit while dancing all over the ice and I can't even try a poke at these ballerinas without wondering if I'm going to pick up a trip or not and you say that the defense isn't punished?

    Please.

    Well I am talking in regards to this video and not defense overall, but I don't see how it would be any different in other situations. You can't use an argument saying "If I were in good position, I would still be punished." You're already showing a negative mindset in that case. If the defender stands his ground, he will have a better chance, simple as that.

    Now if you were in great position and then the forward was able to skate through the defensive player, then there is an argument. I know that happens on occasion in this game, but it doesn't occur with the percentages people are saying here on the boards.

    I am no elite defender, but based on what people are saying, it sounds like I must be

    I would have smashed that guy when the game first game out. But since the bubbles are back, what else would have you wanted me to do? Poke? Penalty. Stick lift? Penalty.

    I went up because of the dumb moves he was making and tiredness to strip away the puck. That clearly didn’t work and you saw how that played out.
  • I noticed something quite enlightening today about the pokes and the amount of penalty it gathers.

    R1 is both Poke and DSS mode. You shouldn't need a Poke button if you have a decent DSS...

    So when you press R1(LB) to get your DSS, your player does a poke straight at the puck, regardless of what is in front of him. PLaying hockey even at lower levels doesn't warrant that many tripping calls.

    My solution would be to remove the R1 = Poke, and instead you'd have to push up on RS to get a poke. That way, you can lay a stick in the lane without getting a penalty. I know I've taken a few bad pokes, but in general, I feel I am not allowed to just put my stick in the way, not the path, of the player.

    There is also not enough responsiveness for players to actually stop DSS swipes from going through legs.
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    This is 100% true, and at least for me, we go for the hit because the stick checking is far too risky. Stick lifts result in penalties far too often (they were great in the beta), and most importantly, the Defensive Skill Stick is a trip machine. In real life, your stick banging against a carrier's shin pad is not a trip. But if you sweep your stick with DSS, you can - and will - frequently cause a trip.

    People go for hits in situations where NHL players would use their stick simply because the defensive stick tools we have are not sufficiently predictable or reliable. Having 1.00 hitting made defense realistic, even if the method of defending - hitting over stick work - was not.

    I think the DSS needs more automation, to where you can still use it manually, but just holding the DSS button - without using the right thumbstick to direct it - would mirror the puck. If the DSS auto tracked the puck, such as if activating DSS placed your stick in the nearest passing or shooting lane - instead of just out front - this would be great. Also, to avoid exploiting by the offense, make DSS incapable of causing a trip unless you use it to manually poke - as opposed to just mirror the puck.

    In other words, we go for hits when NHLers would use their sticks because our stick tools are not up to par with NHLers. Automated puck tracking with DSS would be an enormous step forward as far as defensive tools are concerned.

    Ideally, activating DSS would mirror the puck and place the stick between the puck and the net for a shot deflection, and manually holding it to a certain side of your player would have a high chance of deflecting a pass going by that side. As it stands now, the puck has to go exactly where you have your stick's head to deflect. Allowing a DSS in the general vicinity of a pass or shot to automatically move to deflect the shot or pass would be an amazing improvement.
    I don't think you would get majority agreement on the stick lifts being great in the Beta. They were more successful but there wasn't much accountability at all. There are pieces about them now that are more harsh than we would like but the balance overall feels much better.

    DSS actually does take into account that a shin pad would just push it away, even thought we don't handle that physics interaction. If you hit a single leg swiping outside to in, or hold it out and the player glides in towards the stick where their outside of their leg hits it first, it won't cause a trip. If you swipe with less control through both legs or leave your stick out there to have the players both legs go through it, then it will cause a trip. Swiping inside a single leg outwards will also cause a trip, which makes more sense as well.

    We also made sure we gave players control over when you are doing something forceful or not, so the blend in/out of a poke or the defensive skill stick won't trigger a trip as it reflects not being as firm on your stick. So if you have your DSS out to block a lane and then realize the player has protected the puck and you aren't going to get puck or stick first, you can let go and retract your stick and even if during that time, the stick crosses a threshold that would otherwise cause a trip, it doesn't count it.

    When we first implemented DSS, we did it as you said where it would mirror the puck but we made improvements after that to add a skill gap as well as give more manual control. A player doesn't necessarily always want to mirror the puck. They sometimes want to keep a stick in a lane or where the puck was but not be forced to follow the puck and then possibly have that result in a trip.

    So the initial location of the poke and dss is towards the future position of where the puck will be relative to where the puck carrier currently has it and where that will be in the future based on the amount of frames the stick takes to be extended to the expected puck contact point. DSS, if held out, will track the puck inside a certain amount of degrees of tolerance to the left and right of that position, which is what helps you challenge a shot to deflect it, etc. but you should only be pressing the poke/hold the dss once the puck is in that location to start. If after that, the puck carrier moves the puck to a new location, the dss won't follow and that is a good thing for player control.

    A lot of what you speak about is thought of in the development of these features and a lot of thought goes into the control we want players to have, the skill gap that will result and the overall offensive and defensive balance that will result. We may not agree on the final outcomes but definitely want you to know some of the details that go into those decisions.

    sorry dude, in real life you don't need accountability for stick lifts. in EAs NHL you do but thats because the animations tied to them are ridiculous. in real life a stick lift that was unsuccessful just does nothing, but it would almost never come anywhere near a players face.

    In EA NHL every single unsuccessful stick lift goes like a homing beacon straight to opposing players face for a penalty. It's literally the dumbest thing ever. In real life, even if i ran around like a lunatic waving my stick around trying to stick lift I would probably get a penalty 1 out of every 10000 times I did it. almost all high sticking penalties are just guys that make a mistake and carry their stick up high or lose control of their stick and it mistakenly hits someones face.

    you may say you think it's pretty balanced but you are just wrong as stick lift is in the worst state its ever been in. I'm very careful how i play when I want to be and i time stick lifts perfect and still get penalties about half the time so I'm done using it ever. which is just down right ridiculous
  • Tier1SOFOperator
    496 posts Member
    edited November 2018
    NHLDev wrote: »
    This is 100% true, and at least for me, we go for the hit because the stick checking is far too risky. Stick lifts result in penalties far too often (they were great in the beta), and most importantly, the Defensive Skill Stick is a trip machine. In real life, your stick banging against a carrier's shin pad is not a trip. But if you sweep your stick with DSS, you can - and will - frequently cause a trip.

    People go for hits in situations where NHL players would use their stick simply because the defensive stick tools we have are not sufficiently predictable or reliable. Having 1.00 hitting made defense realistic, even if the method of defending - hitting over stick work - was not.

    I think the DSS needs more automation, to where you can still use it manually, but just holding the DSS button - without using the right thumbstick to direct it - would mirror the puck. If the DSS auto tracked the puck, such as if activating DSS placed your stick in the nearest passing or shooting lane - instead of just out front - this would be great. Also, to avoid exploiting by the offense, make DSS incapable of causing a trip unless you use it to manually poke - as opposed to just mirror the puck.

    In other words, we go for hits when NHLers would use their sticks because our stick tools are not up to par with NHLers. Automated puck tracking with DSS would be an enormous step forward as far as defensive tools are concerned.

    Ideally, activating DSS would mirror the puck and place the stick between the puck and the net for a shot deflection, and manually holding it to a certain side of your player would have a high chance of deflecting a pass going by that side. As it stands now, the puck has to go exactly where you have your stick's head to deflect. Allowing a DSS in the general vicinity of a pass or shot to automatically move to deflect the shot or pass would be an amazing improvement.
    I don't think you would get majority agreement on the stick lifts being great in the Beta. They were more successful but there wasn't much accountability at all. There are pieces about them now that are more harsh than we would like but the balance overall feels much better.

    DSS actually does take into account that a shin pad would just push it away, even thought we don't handle that physics interaction. If you hit a single leg swiping outside to in, or hold it out and the player glides in towards the stick where their outside of their leg hits it first, it won't cause a trip. If you swipe with less control through both legs or leave your stick out there to have the players both legs go through it, then it will cause a trip. Swiping inside a single leg outwards will also cause a trip, which makes more sense as well.

    We also made sure we gave players control over when you are doing something forceful or not, so the blend in/out of a poke or the defensive skill stick won't trigger a trip as it reflects not being as firm on your stick. So if you have your DSS out to block a lane and then realize the player has protected the puck and you aren't going to get puck or stick first, you can let go and retract your stick and even if during that time, the stick crosses a threshold that would otherwise cause a trip, it doesn't count it.

    When we first implemented DSS, we did it as you said where it would mirror the puck but we made improvements after that to add a skill gap as well as give more manual control. A player doesn't necessarily always want to mirror the puck. They sometimes want to keep a stick in a lane or where the puck was but not be forced to follow the puck and then possibly have that result in a trip.

    So the initial location of the poke and dss is towards the future position of where the puck will be relative to where the puck carrier currently has it and where that will be in the future based on the amount of frames the stick takes to be extended to the expected puck contact point. DSS, if held out, will track the puck inside a certain amount of degrees of tolerance to the left and right of that position, which is what helps you challenge a shot to deflect it, etc. but you should only be pressing the poke/hold the dss once the puck is in that location to start. If after that, the puck carrier moves the puck to a new location, the dss won't follow and that is a good thing for player control.

    A lot of what you speak about is thought of in the development of these features and a lot of thought goes into the control we want players to have, the skill gap that will result and the overall offensive and defensive balance that will result. We may not agree on the final outcomes but definitely want you to know some of the details that go into those decisions.

    sorry dude, in real life you don't need accountability for stick lifts. in EAs NHL you do but thats because the animations tied to them are ridiculous. in real life a stick lift that was unsuccessful just does nothing, but it would almost never come anywhere near a players face.

    In EA NHL every single unsuccessful stick lift goes like a homing beacon straight to opposing players face for a penalty. It's literally the dumbest thing ever. In real life, even if i ran around like a lunatic waving my stick around trying to stick lift I would probably get a penalty 1 out of every 10000 times I did it. almost all high sticking penalties are just guys that make a mistake and carry their stick up high or lose control of their stick and it mistakenly hits someones face.

    you may say you think it's pretty balanced but you are just wrong as stick lift is in the worst state its ever been in. I'm very careful how i play when I want to be and i time stick lifts perfect and still get penalties about half the time so I'm done using it ever. which is just down right ridiculous

    I agree. The stick lift animation is flawed. It’s like this super fast upwards chopping motion as if the players intent is to slash the opponent.

    Post edited by Tier1SOFOperator on
  • I don't understand why they don't just increase that slider where being checked when you're off balance (ie: holding the puck out for a deke) has more of an impact. It's right there in the sliders. Hey, if you don't want huge hits, fine. But don't penalize me for making a nice hit against some dude holding it out on his backhand (which you're going to have very little balance in that position).

    You won't have to increase the hitting power, just change that slider. Bam. Done.

    I don't understand why it's so difficult to tune to everybody's liking.
  • I think EA wanted to incorporate penalties like high sticking, slashing, etc into the game without actually making a separate button press, and pinned out of position stick lifts into those penalties. Unfortunately, like poke checking to trips, the stick lift penalties are so inconsistent that the line is blurred between what's a good play and what's a bad play.
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    edited November 2018
    TheMajjam wrote: »
    I think EA wanted to incorporate penalties like high sticking, slashing, etc into the game without actually making a separate button press, and pinned out of position stick lifts into those penalties. Unfortunately, like poke checking to trips, the stick lift penalties are so inconsistent that the line is blurred between what's a good play and what's a bad play.

    If you hit body geometry first before the stick, it is a penalty.

    I would like to exclude some of the blend in frames as you can hit body during those frames before you are in the more aggressive part of the stick lift, which would add leniency in a place the player doesn’t have much control but if you are at an angle to get stick with your stick first, aware of where your stick is relative to the player you are lifting before you press the button, you won’t get a penalty.

    I would accept harsh as a word but not inconsistent when it comes to the online tuning.
  • TheMajjam
    794 posts Member
    edited November 2018
    NHLDev wrote: »
    TheMajjam wrote: »
    I think EA wanted to incorporate penalties like high sticking, slashing, etc into the game without actually making a separate button press, and pinned out of position stick lifts into those penalties. Unfortunately, like poke checking to trips, the stick lift penalties are so inconsistent that the line is blurred between what's a good play and what's a bad play.

    If you hit body geometry first before the stick, it is a penalty.

    I would like to exclude some of the blend in frames as you can hit body during those frames before you are in the more aggressive part of the stick lift, which would add leniency in a place the player doesn’t have much control but if you are at an angle to get stick with your stick first, aware of where your stick is relative to the player you are lifting before you press the button, you won’t get a penalty.

    I would accept harsh as a word but not inconsistent when it comes to the online tuning.

    Fair enough. Can you fine relative? Directly in front? 90 degree angle facing his stick? What other stats going into the lift? Stick checking?
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