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  • This one's pretty good.


    It is unfortunate that you clipped it off so tight at the start. It is possible the stick went through that left leg before the footage we are able to see here. It is in slo mo but even at that, we have seen some cases where actions like passes and pickup attempts delay reactions to tripping. So my thought is that it may have been stick on leg contact previous to what we are seeing and it isn't the stick action in the clip that we see that is causing the trip, which is why he starts to fall before there is much action in that clip as well. Hard to say without seeing full context though. If you have others, would definitely like to see them since we would want to solve any phantom collisions if they are happening. Thanks.

  • NHLDev wrote: »
    3 on 3 OT in the NHL plays very differently to the full game as well. It is the nature of the mode. We don't intend to tune it differently to make the two modes play the same, the whole point is to allow the different play styles come out with the changes in the structure, not the tuning.

    3 on 3 OT in the NHL is intended to allow a game to end quickly before it reaches a shootout. Having it for a full game is an entirely different beast.

    And respectfully, you already have EASHL 3's set up differently than 6's. There's no fighting in 3s. Penalties are different ( no charging/boarding/hitting from behind in 3s ). And the consequences for penalties are different. I don't see why having different tuning is so out of the question.

  • NHLDev wrote: »

    This one's pretty good.


    It is unfortunate that you clipped it off so tight at the start. It is possible the stick went through that left leg before the footage we are able to see here. It is in slo mo but even at that, we have seen some cases where actions like passes and pickup attempts delay reactions to tripping. So my thought is that it may have been stick on leg contact previous to what we are seeing and it isn't the stick action in the clip that we see that is causing the trip, which is why he starts to fall before there is much action in that clip as well. Hard to say without seeing full context though. If you have others, would definitely like to see them since we would want to solve any phantom collisions if they are happening. Thanks.

    No disrespect intended but clipping issues were something that has been in this game for years, I assumed it was just something that had to be because of limitations with the consoles/physics. Is that part of it also?
    Read some of my stuff at www.sportsprowler.com
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    I mess around with a lot of tuners offline. I tweak everything from like a 3 game basis until I'm satisfied with how it plays. One thing you notice right away is tuning one slider will also result in an impact on another slider, especially when it comes to something like hitting. If you adjust the stumble threshold, you're going to have to adjust the hitting power to compensate, so I highly disagree that in the clip where the guy snakes through along the boards would also have happened in the beta. Reason being is because nobody saw it in the beta. The player would stumble even if it was incidental contact.

    We opened up a lot of tuning potential when we added the increased slider set but there are thousands of variables we can post ship tune that aren’t accessible through the outward facing sliders.

    The changes to hitting were specifically to low relative speed hits and from the angle behind the player by adjusting variables that are tied directly to those things. Adjusting pieces like the stumble threshold are isolated to the threshold for stumbles but aren’t near as isolated.

    I understand, but can you explain why after tuner 1.3 we see the player bubble? It simply wasn't there prior to that tuner and people were trying to hog the puck, trust me. The play style practically hasn't changed from the beta, or previous years. All of a sudden, that play style works when it simply didn't 2 months ago. It is also why I purchased the game this year.

    I will not tell you how to do your job, but something is telling me either there are unwanted changes that happened in your last tuner, or we don't have the full story and it is working as intended.

    What mode are you playing?

    I've found that in EASHL 6s the change to the low-speed hits from behind hasn't been too bad but that's because there's less room and you can double team a player into a bad spot easier without opening yourself up too much.

    In EASHL 3s though, it's been a horrible change. Any halfway decent player can just turn his back to you and roll off any attempt to knock him off the puck. Doing a double-team is a lot less palatable when you're essentially giving the other team a free two on one as a result.

    The two modes play so differently I'm a bit surprised that they don't have different tuners.

    I play strictly EASHL 6s. I might play arcade 3s from time to time, but very rarely.

    What the better players are doing is they try to slow down as much as possibly while coming into your zone. What this does is forces you to slow down to maintain proper gap, and it negates any body check. They simply curl their sticks behind them while turning and this will essentially kill any body contact. It also attracts tripping penalties on the D men that have no patience, or less experience.

    In all honesty, I don't care at all about hits from behind. In fact, I never talk about them or think about them. The hits that irritate me are the ones on an angle where a puck carrier simply curls his stick behind him, turns slightly sideways and keeps the puck. Not even a slight stumble. It really seems to play head games on the collision detection. If you do play 6s, I don't see how you cannot see this every single game. Literally any single puck carrier will curl his stick the second an oppsoing player is anywhere near them.
  • I really appreciate you providing feedback to @ExSnake01 videos, this is very helpful for folks that are usually in these forums with questions. However, I noticed there was no take/comment/answer on the last piece of his original post stating, "People here including myself are begging you guys to go back to 1.1 tuner. 1.0 would be even better since that's why I pre-ordered after playing the beta."

    Can we just get an answer as to whether or not this is going to happen? Whether or not this is a possibility? Speaking for myself personally, if you all just come out and say there is no way you would revert to previous tuners, I honestly don't think this forum would serve me anymore purpose. I believe a large reason for the traffic we see here on a daily basis is due to players addressing concerns that they hope will lead to rolling back to 1.00 or 1.01 tuners. If we all can give up on, what would seem false hope at this point, there would be a lot less heat in this forum and other platforms as the community would stop complaining and be able to move on from the game and except it for what it is.

    I have mentioned already that we are always looking at tuning but I can't commit to anything as there is no guarantee we will put out a tuner. We wouldn't roll back as there are other changes in those tuners beyond ones people are talking about wanting changed/rolled back that are only adding benefits to everyone.

    We do have further tuning we have tried around low relative speed hits as well as tuning for how goalies challenge shooters. So I know we could make some changes if all gets the green light but we have no plans to roll these out in the next week at this point or anything.

  • I play strictly EASHL 6s. I might play arcade 3s from time to time, but very rarely.

    What the better players are doing is they try to slow down as much as possibly while coming into your zone. What this does is forces you to slow down to maintain proper gap, and it negates any body check. They simply curl their sticks behind them while turning and this will essentially kill any body contact. It also attracts tripping penalties on the D men that have no patience, or less experience.

    In all honesty, I don't care at all about hits from behind. In fact, I never talk about them or think about them. The hits that irritate me are the ones on an angle where a puck carrier simply curls his stick behind him, turns slightly sideways and keeps the puck. Not even a slight stumble. It really seems to play head games on the collision detection. If you do play 6s, I don't see how you cannot see this every single game. Literally any single puck carrier will curl his stick the second an oppsoing player is anywhere near them.

    I'm not saying I don't see it. One-on-one it's a problem in any mode. I'm saying that in 6s it's something that can be contained with better teamwork.

    You basically need two players working together to force the puck carrier into a bad position where he can be stripped. In 6s this can be done without necessarily opening yourself up to a massive defensive disadvantage. In 3s if you try to double-team someone you've put yourself in a really bad spot if you don't get that puck.

    That's all.


  • I play strictly EASHL 6s. I might play arcade 3s from time to time, but very rarely.

    What the better players are doing is they try to slow down as much as possibly while coming into your zone. What this does is forces you to slow down to maintain proper gap, and it negates any body check. They simply curl their sticks behind them while turning and this will essentially kill any body contact. It also attracts tripping penalties on the D men that have no patience, or less experience.

    In all honesty, I don't care at all about hits from behind. In fact, I never talk about them or think about them. The hits that irritate me are the ones on an angle where a puck carrier simply curls his stick behind him, turns slightly sideways and keeps the puck. Not even a slight stumble. It really seems to play head games on the collision detection. If you do play 6s, I don't see how you cannot see this every single game. Literally any single puck carrier will curl his stick the second an oppsoing player is anywhere near them.

    I'm not saying I don't see it. One-on-one it's a problem in any mode. I'm saying that in 6s it's something that can be contained with better teamwork.

    You basically need two players working together to force the puck carrier into a bad position where he can be stripped. In 6s this can be done without necessarily opening yourself up to a massive defensive disadvantage. In 3s if you try to double-team someone you've put yourself in a really bad spot if you don't get that puck.

    That's all.

    I get what you are saying, and because of the current tuning, I agree with you. However, during the beta, scoring goals was better achieved through team work. Now you need team work just to knock a player off the puck, but don't need team work to score a goal. How does that make sense to you?

    There is no reason a dangler can shrug off a hit from an enforcer simply because he skates slowly and curls his stick back. There is no logic to it. I can tell you do this against Shea Weber and he will smack the faith of Jesus into you while you lick the boards.
  • I get what you are saying, and because of the current tuning, I agree with you. However, during the beta, scoring goals was better achieved through team work. Now you need team work just to knock a player off the puck, but don't need team work to score a goal. How does that make sense to you?

    There is no reason a dangler can shrug off a hit from an enforcer simply because he skates slowly and curls his stick back. There is no logic to it. I can tell you do this against Shea Weber and he will smack the faith of Jesus into you while you lick the boards.

    I don't think we disagree. I'm not defending the current bubble. I'm just saying that while its bad in 6s it's even worse in 3s.

    In either mode it's re-introduced a style of play that shouldn't be as rewarded as it currently is.

  • NHLDev
    1335 posts NHL Developer
    edited December 2018
    I understand, but can you explain why after tuner 1.3 we see the player bubble? It simply wasn't there prior to that tuner and people were trying to hog the puck, trust me. The play style practically hasn't changed from the beta, or previous years. All of a sudden, that play style works when it simply didn't 2 months ago. It is also why I purchased the game this year.

    I will not tell you how to do your job, but something is telling me either there are unwanted changes that happened in your last tuner, or we don't have the full story and it is working as intended.
    In a perfect world, we would have better stumble assets where the player can keep control of the puck but those weren't really working as well. Sometimes due to the incidental puck loss rules and sometimes due to the stumbles being bigger and moving the stick from the puck, the player would lose the puck when they should have kept control in a smoother fashion. In these cases, if we had the better assets working as intended, you would see a reaction but the player would shrug it off and still keep the puck.

    So with what we have available, we tuned it so that the tolerance to withstand a check at low relative speeds from behind was higher. This means that it is more likely for the hit to result in incidental contact and not get into a stumble. The end result of what I mentioned above as being ideal and this is really the same as the player still keeps the puck but one may look more organic visually.

    I originally tuned with game balance in mind as well as keeping the thought of 'player bubbles' as coined by the community, in mind. I had a lot of discussions with players that brought up the 'bumps' also coined by the community, playing devils advocate and showing how a player could get bumped off the puck and pick it back up again. In a lot of cases, this worked pretty well. However, there were cases where we saw players pushed off the puck when the player from behind had no business impacting them or being rewarded for getting beat and having a last ditch effort to cause that loss of puck that disrupted them enough to not get a clean shot off or lose outright possession when they should have kept it. So that is what we tuned around.

    The whole mechanic is the same, smaller players and/or those with less balance still get pushed off the puck from behind but overall, the threshold is higher so on average, more players can withstand those hits a better and not go into as extreme stumble reactions.

    The change itself was in the 5-10 percent range on one of the factors weighing into those scenarios and other that meant that the puck had to be a few inches further from the stick to create incidental puck loss when the arm/stick of the puck carrier was pushed past that distance from the puck. Is there more we could tune around it to dial it in more? Most certainly but the tuning will always be subjective -- people already had opinions about the Beta tuning after the short time they had with it and would have had even more if they had played it up to this day but as we tune things, it opens up that line in the sand for people to compare and you get a 'grass is greener' scenario. All we can do is look at moving forward and take what we have learned along the way into account. Is it the night and day difference or the turning of NHL 19 into 18 that people claim? Definitely not; but I understand where people are coming from when they use the hyperbole to make their point.

  • NHLDev wrote: »
    I understand, but can you explain why after tuner 1.3 we see the player bubble? It simply wasn't there prior to that tuner and people were trying to hog the puck, trust me. The play style practically hasn't changed from the beta, or previous years. All of a sudden, that play style works when it simply didn't 2 months ago. It is also why I purchased the game this year.

    I will not tell you how to do your job, but something is telling me either there are unwanted changes that happened in your last tuner, or we don't have the full story and it is working as intended.
    In a perfect world, we would have better stumble assets where the player can keep control of the puck but those weren't really working as well. Sometimes due to the incidental puck loss rules and sometimes due to the stumbles being bigger and moving the stick from the puck, the player would lose the puck when they should have kept control in a smoother fashion. In these cases, if we had the better assets working as intended, you would see a reaction but the player would shrug it off and still keep the puck.

    So with what we have available, we tuned it so that the tolerance to withstand a check at low relative speeds from behind was higher. This means that it is more likely for the hit to result in incidental contact and not get into a stumble. The end result of what I mentioned above as being ideal and this is really the same as the player still keeps the puck but one may look more organic visually.

    I originally tuned with game balance in mind as well as keeping the thought of 'player bubbles' as coined by the community, in mind. I had a lot of discussions with players that brought up the 'bumps' also coined by the community, playing devils advocate and showing how a player could get bumped off the puck and pick it back up again. In a lot of cases, this worked pretty well. However, there were cases where we saw players pushed off the puck when the player from behind had no business impacting them or being rewarded for getting beat and having a last ditch effort to cause that loss of puck that disrupted them enough to not get a clean shot off or lose outright possession when they should have kept it. So that is what we tuned around.

    The whole mechanic is the same, smaller players and/or those with less balance still get pushed off the puck from behind but overall, the threshold is higher so on average, more players can withstand those hits a better and not go into as extreme stumble reactions.

    The change itself was in the 5-10 percent range on one of the factors weighing into those scenarios and other that meant that the puck had to be a few inches further from the stick to create incidental puck loss when the arm/stick of the puck carrier was pushed past that distance from the puck. Is there more we could tune around it to dial it in more? Most certainly but the tuning will always be subjective -- people already had opinions about the Beta tuning after the short time they had with it and would have had even more if they had played it up to this day but as we tune things, it opens up that line in the sand for people to compare and you get a 'grass is greener' scenario. All we can do is look at moving forward and take what we have learned along the way into account. Is it the night and day difference or the turning of NHL 19 into 18 that people claim? Definitely not; but I understand where people are coming from when they use the hyperbole to make their point.

    I get it. Would like to say I agree, but can't completely do so.

    The point is, and I would think what most people claim they want to see return, is during the beta and launch there was ALOT more team play. You had to move the puck around to generate plays and scoring chances. Human goalies were putting up decent numbers and playing goalie was fun. Now the plays are much more selfish and definitely resemble a whole lot like NHL 18. D is now getting boring and stale while goalie is just downright aggravating to play.

    I will speak for myself when I say the current tuning has promoted selfish dangling while earlier versions promoted team play. Hockey is a team sport, and that is what I want to see on my screen when I pop your product into my console. You may have only made a 5-10 percent change, but it has completely changed the dynamics of the game in every zone, for every position. I don't like these new dynamics. Playing offense is pretty much the only position that is unrealistically rewarding and "fun" to play. All other positions don't have any unrealistic rewarding.
  • PlayoffError
    229 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    NHLDev wrote: »
    It is unfortunate that you clipped it off so tight at the start. It is possible the stick went through that left leg before the footage we are able to see here. It is in slo mo but even at that, we have seen some cases where actions like passes and pickup attempts delay reactions to tripping. So my thought is that it may have been stick on leg contact previous to what we are seeing and it isn't the stick action in the clip that we see that is causing the trip, which is why he starts to fall before there is much action in that clip as well. Hard to say without seeing full context though. If you have others, would definitely like to see them since we would want to solve any phantom collisions if they are happening. Thanks.

    It's possible the stick went through the leg first. I honestly can't remember. To my eye the offensive player's falling motion is timed perfectly with the poke in the clip, but I won't argue it if you think it's starting earlier.

    Unfortunately, this was a while ago so I likely don't have the raw clip still on my PS4. I'll try to make sure I get more leading footage in future clips.



  • Kmahrle83 wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    I mess around with a lot of tuners offline. I tweak everything from like a 3 game basis until I'm satisfied with how it plays. One thing you notice right away is tuning one slider will also result in an impact on another slider, especially when it comes to something like hitting. If you adjust the stumble threshold, you're going to have to adjust the hitting power to compensate, so I highly disagree that in the clip where the guy snakes through along the boards would also have happened in the beta. Reason being is because nobody saw it in the beta. The player would stumble even if it was incidental contact.

    We opened up a lot of tuning potential when we added the increased slider set but there are thousands of variables we can post ship tune that aren’t accessible through the outward facing sliders.

    The changes to hitting were specifically to low relative speed hits and from the angle behind the player by adjusting variables that are tied directly to those things. Adjusting pieces like the stumble threshold are isolated to the threshold for stumbles but aren’t near as isolated.

    I really appreciate you providing feedback to @ExSnake01 videos, this is very helpful for folks that are usually in these forums with questions. However, I noticed there was no take/comment/answer on the last piece of his original post stating, "People here including myself are begging you guys to go back to 1.1 tuner. 1.0 would be even better since that's why I pre-ordered after playing the beta."

    Can we just get an answer as to whether or not this is going to happen? Whether or not this is a possibility? Speaking for myself personally, if you all just come out and say there is no way you would revert to previous tuners, I honestly don't think this forum would serve me anymore purpose. I believe a large reason for the traffic we see here on a daily basis is due to players addressing concerns that they hope will lead to rolling back to 1.00 or 1.01 tuners. If we all can give up on, what would seem false hope at this point, there would be a lot less heat in this forum and other platforms as the community would stop complaining and be able to move on from the game and except it for what it is.

    They've all but come out and said they won't do this already

    I simply refuse to continue to encourage this game style with my wallet. The only reason I bought 19 was because it had changed the game. Had I known this tuner was going to be the end product, I would have avoided 19 like the plague. This is not hockey, never was except for that brief beta/release month. THAT is what I paid for, not this clown representation on ice.

    Oh I absolutely agree with you one hundred percent. If this is what the beta had played like, I would never have bought it. It stumps me that they say we're the minority in wanting things back to beta but yet 9 out of 10 people on here and while playing all say the same thing. I'm curious where they're getting their positive feedback from because between here, other sites and social media, everything I read is in the negative spectrum.

    Maybe there's some secret site we don't know about where everyone praise this game but I sure as heck don't see the praise that they claim anywhere that I've read feedback
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    I mess around with a lot of tuners offline. I tweak everything from like a 3 game basis until I'm satisfied with how it plays. One thing you notice right away is tuning one slider will also result in an impact on another slider, especially when it comes to something like hitting. If you adjust the stumble threshold, you're going to have to adjust the hitting power to compensate, so I highly disagree that in the clip where the guy snakes through along the boards would also have happened in the beta. Reason being is because nobody saw it in the beta. The player would stumble even if it was incidental contact.

    We opened up a lot of tuning potential when we added the increased slider set but there are thousands of variables we can post ship tune that aren’t accessible through the outward facing sliders.

    The changes to hitting were specifically to low relative speed hits and from the angle behind the player by adjusting variables that are tied directly to those things. Adjusting pieces like the stumble threshold are isolated to the threshold for stumbles but aren’t near as isolated.

    This change is what's ruined the gameplay we loved from 1.00 though. I play 1.00 offline. If you're skating at a decent clip you'll never get bumped off the puck. If you're barely moving, you will.

    The go-to move now to avoid a hit is to whip your stick out and turn away from your direction of travel to radically slow your speed just as you're about to get hit. Because of the very change you describe, this now allows players to avoid being hit or bumped off the puck.

    In the NHL, the casual cross-check - which happens all the time yet is never called - is how two unmoving players keep each other from gaining the puck and skating off. 1.00 had that with the low speed hitting. 1.03 - as you say - got rid of it.

    That very change is what has wrecked this gameplay and alienated so many of us. Why are y'all so adamant about not changing it back, @NHLDev ?
  • I play strictly EASHL 6s. I might play arcade 3s from time to time, but very rarely.

    What the better players are doing is they try to slow down as much as possibly while coming into your zone. What this does is forces you to slow down to maintain proper gap, and it negates any body check. They simply curl their sticks behind them while turning and this will essentially kill any body contact. It also attracts tripping penalties on the D men that have no patience, or less experience.

    In all honesty, I don't care at all about hits from behind. In fact, I never talk about them or think about them. The hits that irritate me are the ones on an angle where a puck carrier simply curls his stick behind him, turns slightly sideways and keeps the puck. Not even a slight stumble. It really seems to play head games on the collision detection. If you do play 6s, I don't see how you cannot see this every single game. Literally any single puck carrier will curl his stick the second an oppsoing player is anywhere near them.
    That is the thing. You are saying 'better players force you to adapt to maintain a good gap' and 'D men that have no patience or less experience' are lured into penalties and getting beat.

    Your goal as a defender is to limit the options of the offense and eventually get a turnover to occur. If you can get the offense to slow down and stop moving their feet, this is a success. They now need to get skating again or move the puck. You don't have to body check them to contain them and you don't need to get the puck back right away which is why you reference patience as being key in your post. Tons of defense is about angling players out and limiting their options and then looking for the right time to commit once they are out of options that could hurt you the other way.

    The offensive player moving the puck away from you is forcing them into a glide where they can no longer skate. We also ensured that their balance is worse when they move the puck back and thus put their center of mass behind them. Gliding makes them more prepared/balanced than when they are skating but if they move the puck back and change that center of balance, it actually hinders them but if you don't have enough relative speed or strength to knock them off the puck, then a body check isn't the right option. That said, if you hit them away from the puck, it will come loose but if you hit them towards the puck, you need to put them into a big enough stumble that they are knocked off the puck.

    When they stop moving their feet, they eventually have to get moving again to get the puck to the net and they can't do that if they are in a glide. So as you said, sometimes it requires more patience.

    Defense forces the need to use teammates. I get how easier puck loss can promote that as well but there are defenses out there having plenty of success and with the current tuning and we are seeing defenders that are beat, bailed out less with this tuning as well, which was the aim of it. That is the balance we are always looking at. There may be a better balance and that is what we have played around with but I am just saying it isn't as night and day as some would make it.
  • NHLDev
    1335 posts NHL Developer
    edited December 2018
    This change is what's ruined the gameplay we loved from 1.00 though. I play 1.00 offline. If you're skating at a decent clip you'll never get bumped off the puck. If you're barely moving, you will.

    The go-to move now to avoid a hit is to whip your stick out and turn away from your direction of travel to radically slow your speed just as you're about to get hit. Because of the very change you describe, this now allows players to avoid being hit or bumped off the puck.

    In the NHL, the casual cross-check - which happens all the time yet is never called - is how two unmoving players keep each other from gaining the puck and skating off. 1.00 had that with the low speed hitting. 1.03 - as you say - got rid of it.

    That very change is what has wrecked this gameplay and alienated so many of us. Why are y'all so adamant about not changing it back, @NHLDev ?

    The main point to make here is that it was toned down, not removed. It is still all relative but the threshold from behind for low relative speed hits was just moved up and takes more to produce a stumble than it did, which is what is in the 5-10 percent range when I speak to that increase. You need a higher relative speed and/or size/strength advantage to stumble a player off the puck when pushing from behind now.

    We aren't adamant about not changing it. We are listening, watching and have tried some tuning. We just aren't committing to a new tuner at this point. It doesn't mean we won't change something in the future.
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    This change is what's ruined the gameplay we loved from 1.00 though. I play 1.00 offline. If you're skating at a decent clip you'll never get bumped off the puck. If you're barely moving, you will.

    The go-to move now to avoid a hit is to whip your stick out and turn away from your direction of travel to radically slow your speed just as you're about to get hit. Because of the very change you describe, this now allows players to avoid being hit or bumped off the puck.

    In the NHL, the casual cross-check - which happens all the time yet is never called - is how two unmoving players keep each other from gaining the puck and skating off. 1.00 had that with the low speed hitting. 1.03 - as you say - got rid of it.

    That very change is what has wrecked this gameplay and alienated so many of us. Why are y'all so adamant about not changing it back, @NHLDev ?

    The main point to make here is that it was toned down, not removed. It is still all relative but the threshold from behind for low relative speed hits was just moved up and takes more to produce a stumble than it did, which is what is in the 5-10 percent range when I speak to that increase. You need a higher relative speed and/or size/strength advantage to stumble a player off the puck when pushing from behind now.

    We aren't adamant about not changing it. We are listening, watching and have tried some tuning. We just aren't committing to a new tuner at this point. It doesn't mean we won't change something in the future.

    I really hope y'all do, because I've completely abandoned online gameplay at this point.
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