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NHL 20 Content Update October 25th


Check out our CHEL notes with our October Patch update here.

An Update on Gameplay Feedback + Action Plan

Replies

  • ExSnake01
    454 posts Member
    edited January 2
    The poke check accuracy is way off. Too many times I have a great angle to poke the puck but he pokes in some other direction that goes into the skates instead. The only time you can really poke now is while skating back with the puck carrier in front of you. Sometimes you can poke from behind but you need to give yourself a lot of room so you do not even tap the skates. But even then, you can still trip the guy. The current system still seem ridiculous to me.
  • Or add an animation wher the attacker sticks an arm out to push off the defender. It might jus be a case of no visual feed back being the biggest problem. I mean he got around you, but you dont know why.
  • jiajji
    329 posts Member
    ExSnake01 wrote: »
    The poke check accuracy is way off. Too many times I have a great angle to poke the puck but he pokes in some other direction that goes into the skates instead. The only time you can really poke now is while skating back with the puck carrier in front of you. Sometimes you can poke from behind but you need to give yourself a lot of room so you do not even tap the skates. But even then, you can still trip the guy. The current system still seem ridiculous to me.

    Like when you have a perfect 45 to the puck & you inexplicably poke the skate, or you're not close enough to land the poke but you're trying to affect the line the puck carrier takes but instead of poking toward the puck you go right to the skate.
  • jiajji
    329 posts Member
    Fatboyee wrote: »
    Or add an animation wher the attacker sticks an arm out to push off the defender. It might jus be a case of no visual feed back being the biggest problem. I mean he got around you, but you dont know why.

    Yeah I agree with that, perception goes a long way & something from him to show that he's actively fighting back would probably make people feel better about missing on that play.

    Maybe a 5'6" sniper needs to end up on his knees or at least stumble over contact from a strong dman too.
  • the idea that high level hockey player should stumble and lose the puck every time someone farts in his direction is ridiculous. strong skilled hockey players can fight off checks/nudges/pushes/whatever you want to call them when they don't have much force behind them (again physics). a defender that's trying to skate with a rushing skater doesn't have much force especially against a skater that knows how to twist away from the attack, greatly reducing said force. they are not doing "odd stick positions to become invincible".

    here's a video of how a real hockey player maintains possession through extreme pressure from the defense. yes this is a video of one of the greatest hockey players ever but he's not superman, he can't defy physics. he combines strength and skill with making physics work for him not against.



    Notice also how he falls down when checked. Which is what we want.

    actually i would say while a few times he falls down from checks (usually it's from trips or just general stick work) he never loses possession (losing it for half a second and regaining it is not really losing it).

    and to be honest more often than not, the over aggressive physical play gets used against the defender and they end up on the ice, not crosby.

    but that was not the point i was trying to make. this video shows that it takes a lot more than some shoving , pushing and glancing blows to knock someone down and off the puck. There's parts of that video were guys are skating straight at him cross checking him in the back out of frustration and maybe it causes him to "stumble" but it doesn't stop him from going where he wants, from maintaining puck possession throughout.

    some people here think that "if you hold puck on back hand you get an bubble of protection" and cant be checked. basically because there are so many bad players that just skate right into checks, when someone skates around your check and the glancing blow doesn't knock you flying, they get their panties in a bunch. the game could use a small tweak to checking because i think guys can be in good position but its like the animation is aimed poorly and bounces off their sides rather than hitting them square. but come on this is FAR from being one of the biggest problems of this game. The terrible poke and stick lifts are much much bigger issue. they partially fixed pokes and now we are rolling it back. all the while the game is basically dead because of the biggest issue they have yet to address, DRE related issues.
  • zingaa1 wrote: »
    TheMajjam wrote: »
    [When you're a defenseman and your hits are nerfed so you do the next best thing]

    8VNkBX3.gif

    Poking here would be a penalty, so that's ruled out. So would a reaching stick lift. Ruled out. Positioning and hitting is all I have left. I think my positioning is great, and you'd think that my back-skating crossover would give me enough momentum to separate the puck from a guy who isn't skating and is just holding the puck away with a slow speed, off-hand protect. However, attempting to hit here not only does absolutely nothing, but slows me down and doesn't slow the forward down any.

    And some of you guys want to keep hits nerfed and slow the speed of the D.

    With that, you needed to be in front of the player more, you were already beat. Agreed a nudge should slow them down, but you have to admit, you were beat. I would have poked right when they received the puck at the blue line, but that's just me.

    [Socair - edited quote to reflect change]

    In real life the defender would have been successful on that play. He would be able to carry the attacker to the board and pin him there. Something this game has severely lacked since, well, always.
  • Sinbin wrote: »
    ExSnake01 wrote: »
    Also that clip demonstrates how putting the puck on your forehand or backhand will make you immune to most hits.

    It only took EA 3+ months to do something about it. Why is the beta tuner only going to be temporary?

    There's no immunity to putting the puck on your backhand. Look at the physics of this clip. The carrier is moving away from the defender. They are both moving very slow. There's very little opposing force here. Even if they were knocked off the puck, they'd probably get it back as it's on his backhand and chances are good it's going to be pushed away off his backhand, but still within reach of the carrier.

    And that is what is exactly wrong with this game. The very good forwards slow down in the offensive zone to negate any physical plays. Try this in real life with Shea Weber and let me know how it goes. He will nail you to the boards. So explain why even an Enforcer can't hit a player in that situation? The current tuner screwed up physical play beyond logic, plain and simple.
  • the idea that high level hockey player should stumble and lose the puck every time someone farts in his direction is ridiculous. strong skilled hockey players can fight off checks/nudges/pushes/whatever you want to call them when they don't have much force behind them (again physics). a defender that's trying to skate with a rushing skater doesn't have much force especially against a skater that knows how to twist away from the attack, greatly reducing said force. they are not doing "odd stick positions to become invincible".

    here's a video of how a real hockey player maintains possession through extreme pressure from the defense. yes this is a video of one of the greatest hockey players ever but he's not superman, he can't defy physics. he combines strength and skill with making physics work for him not against.



    Notice also how he falls down when checked. Which is what we want.

    actually i would say while a few times he falls down from checks (usually it's from trips or just general stick work) he never loses possession (losing it for half a second and regaining it is not really losing it).

    and to be honest more often than not, the over aggressive physical play gets used against the defender and they end up on the ice, not crosby.

    but that was not the point i was trying to make. this video shows that it takes a lot more than some shoving , pushing and glancing blows to knock someone down and off the puck. There's parts of that video were guys are skating straight at him cross checking him in the back out of frustration and maybe it causes him to "stumble" but it doesn't stop him from going where he wants, from maintaining puck possession throughout.

    some people here think that "if you hold puck on back hand you get an bubble of protection" and cant be checked. basically because there are so many bad players that just skate right into checks, when someone skates around your check and the glancing blow doesn't knock you flying, they get their panties in a bunch. the game could use a small tweak to checking because i think guys can be in good position but its like the animation is aimed poorly and bounces off their sides rather than hitting them square. but come on this is FAR from being one of the biggest problems of this game. The terrible poke and stick lifts are much much bigger issue. they partially fixed pokes and now we are rolling it back. all the while the game is basically dead because of the biggest issue they have yet to address, DRE related issues.

    Stand up. Bend your knees. Hold your hands as if you were attempting a backhand as far to the side as possible. Now get a friend and while standing still, have him shove you at the shoulders as hard as possible. Lean into it if you like. Now walk and do it. Then run and do it.

    Then imagine you're on skates trying to keep the puck in an off hand protect, while being shoved, and trying to keep your balance.

    This move is meant to get around flat footed defenseman that have a stick in the way. Not against a defenseman close enough to put a body on you.
  • jiajji wrote: »
    TheMajjam wrote: »
    [When you're a defenseman and your hits are nerfed so you do the next best thing]

    8VNkBX3.gif

    Poking here would be a penalty, so that's ruled out. So would a reaching stick lift. Ruled out. Positioning and hitting is all I have left. I think my positioning is great, and you'd think that my back-skating crossover would give me enough momentum to separate the puck from a guy who isn't skating and is just holding the puck away with a slow speed, off-hand protect. However, attempting to hit here not only does absolutely nothing, but slows me down and doesn't slow the forward down any.

    And some of you guys want to keep hits nerfed and slow the speed of the D.

    [Socair - edited for profanity shorthand]

    And this right here is a perfect example of what can be seen multiple times per game and what makes playing D absolutely boring and frustrating.

    That's like, your opinion, man.

    I love playing d, all he had to do to lay a check on that kid was force him to commit to a direction and square him up. He said he was good & I believe him so I'm not trying to critique but for that particular play he blew it.

    That puck carrier braced for a check when he put it backhand, you have to wait until he tries to accelerate or changes direction if you want to knock him off puck at such a low speed. Particularly because the dman in the video is much smaller than the puck carrier, you all want great skating + all of the physicality it's not going to work, there is a sacrifice for picking one over the other.

    If he hadn't gone for a hit the puck carrier's options are extremely limited while gliding with the puck backhand, so he's got all kinds of time.

    All that having been said I think we could use a slight adjustment so that has the potential to become a loose puck battle. Such a bummer that all positive steps have to be removed before they start tuning properly.

    That is, like, your opinion man.

    I know how to play D. Personally I would have used DSS and a poke as he entered the zone. You also have to bear in mind this is 3's. If you get burned, there is no one to cover for you so that could weigh in as well as a D man and his decisions on ice. But at the end of the day, it isn't that I can or cannot play D. The problem is how I have to play D. It is incredibly boring, frustrating and stale.

    On D all it takes is literally a very minor mistake and you have an incredibly high chance of getting burned. I see alot of bad forwards that make horrible decisions and yet alot of times they still get rewarded. Want to talk skill gap? Well that should include forwards as well. This game encourages and rewards puck carriers that want to bully their way past the D instead of moving the puck around to create space and opportunities. Ridiculous.
  • jiajji wrote: »
    TheMajjam wrote: »
    [When you're a defenseman and your hits are nerfed so you do the next best thing]

    8VNkBX3.gif

    Poking here would be a penalty, so that's ruled out. So would a reaching stick lift. Ruled out. Positioning and hitting is all I have left. I think my positioning is great, and you'd think that my back-skating crossover would give me enough momentum to separate the puck from a guy who isn't skating and is just holding the puck away with a slow speed, off-hand protect. However, attempting to hit here not only does absolutely nothing, but slows me down and doesn't slow the forward down any.

    And some of you guys want to keep hits nerfed and slow the speed of the D.

    [Socair - edited for profanity shorthand]

    And this right here is a perfect example of what can be seen multiple times per game and what makes playing D absolutely boring and frustrating.

    That's like, your opinion, man.

    I love playing d, all he had to do to lay a check on that kid was force him to commit to a direction and square him up. He said he was good & I believe him so I'm not trying to critique but for that particular play he blew it.

    That puck carrier braced for a check when he put it backhand, you have to wait until he tries to accelerate or changes direction if you want to knock him off puck at such a low speed. Particularly because the dman in the video is much smaller than the puck carrier, you all want great skating + all of the physicality it's not going to work, there is a sacrifice for picking one over the other.

    If he hadn't gone for a hit the puck carrier's options are extremely limited while gliding with the puck backhand, so he's got all kinds of time.

    All that having been said I think we could use a slight adjustment so that has the potential to become a loose puck battle. Such a bummer that all positive steps have to be removed before they start tuning properly.

    The size difference and build skill needs to work both ways. You acknowledge that a small D man shouldn't be able to hit larger forwards. However, what about the Chara-sized danglers and snipers that can't be hit and handle the puck like McDavid. They're naturally slower (and according to people here, slow is worse for defensemen trying to put the body).

    There are literally no penalties in this game for being a forward, but there are plenty for every single D build.
  • Bmh245
    870 posts Member
    here's a video of how a real hockey player maintains possession through extreme pressure from the defense. yes this is a video of one of the greatest hockey players ever but he's not superman, he can't defy physics. he combines strength and skill with making physics work for him not against.


    The video starts with him getting knocked down twice on pushes from the back where the defenseman is essentially standing still. Very hard - I'd say close to impossible - to do that against any player with reasonable balance ratings under the new tuner.

    The nudges from behind in the beta were definitely overpowered. But any reasonable person has to acknowledge they overcorrected. It's now unrealistically easy for players to retain the puck after shoves and hits, which is why you see so much figure skating and dancing in the corners in 1v1 modes.
  • jiajji
    329 posts Member
    TheMajjam wrote: »
    jiajji wrote: »
    TheMajjam wrote: »
    [When you're a defenseman and your hits are nerfed so you do the next best thing]

    8VNkBX3.gif

    Poking here would be a penalty, so that's ruled out. So would a reaching stick lift. Ruled out. Positioning and hitting is all I have left. I think my positioning is great, and you'd think that my back-skating crossover would give me enough momentum to separate the puck from a guy who isn't skating and is just holding the puck away with a slow speed, off-hand protect. However, attempting to hit here not only does absolutely nothing, but slows me down and doesn't slow the forward down any.

    And some of you guys want to keep hits nerfed and slow the speed of the D.

    [Socair - edited for profanity shorthand]

    And this right here is a perfect example of what can be seen multiple times per game and what makes playing D absolutely boring and frustrating.

    That's like, your opinion, man.

    I love playing d, all he had to do to lay a check on that kid was force him to commit to a direction and square him up. He said he was good & I believe him so I'm not trying to critique but for that particular play he blew it.

    That puck carrier braced for a check when he put it backhand, you have to wait until he tries to accelerate or changes direction if you want to knock him off puck at such a low speed. Particularly because the dman in the video is much smaller than the puck carrier, you all want great skating + all of the physicality it's not going to work, there is a sacrifice for picking one over the other.

    If he hadn't gone for a hit the puck carrier's options are extremely limited while gliding with the puck backhand, so he's got all kinds of time.

    All that having been said I think we could use a slight adjustment so that has the potential to become a loose puck battle. Such a bummer that all positive steps have to be removed before they start tuning properly.

    The size difference and build skill needs to work both ways. You acknowledge that a small D man shouldn't be able to hit larger forwards. However, what about the Chara-sized danglers and snipers that can't be hit and handle the puck like McDavid. They're naturally slower (and according to people here, slow is worse for defensemen trying to put the body).

    There are literally no penalties in this game for being a forward, but there are plenty for every single D build.

    I agree with that, I've been saying all along that people choosing a 5'6" sniper shouldn't be able to fend people off. There should also be a greater speed penalty for large forward builds.

    There has to be something in between this & beta though with regard to physicality, when we go back to beta everyone should consider an ofd build.
  • Bmh245 wrote: »
    here's a video of how a real hockey player maintains possession through extreme pressure from the defense. yes this is a video of one of the greatest hockey players ever but he's not superman, he can't defy physics. he combines strength and skill with making physics work for him not against.


    The video starts with him getting knocked down twice on pushes from the back where the defenseman is essentially standing still. Very hard - I'd say close to impossible - to do that against any player with reasonable balance ratings under the new tuner.

    The nudges from behind in the beta were definitely overpowered. But any reasonable person has to acknowledge they overcorrected. It's now unrealistically easy for players to retain the puck after shoves and hits, which is why you see so much figure skating and dancing in the corners in 1v1 modes.

    yeah it's not great right now but it's better than beta. going back to beta is a horrible idea. They know it, they are only agreeing to do it (temporarily) because they know it will be a total flop and they can finally put a nail in the coffin for all the people complaining that the game was amazing in beta and now is total garbage, nhl 18.5

    a total waste of time, they should be instead working on further tweaking of the existing code.

  • The two videoes at hand here, showcases perfectly a lot of what is wrong with this game.
    Crosby is using fast pivots and excellent stickhandling, keeping his back to the defender, using the boards and even the goal to knock the puck around the defender. A lot of the times he's at full stop while doing this.
    For convinienve, here's that clip again:
    Not once is he gliding by the defender, with his back turned, maintaining speed.
    Or like in this clip, gliding from the redline to "catch the D flatfooted"
    TheMajjam wrote: »
    8VNkBX3.gif
    And why would you want to tune the game after a highlight reel of Crosby protecting the puck to begin with?

  • @NHLDev any word on what day the beta tuner comes back?
  • Sinbin
    1324 posts Member
    Sinbin wrote: »
    ExSnake01 wrote: »
    Also that clip demonstrates how putting the puck on your forehand or backhand will make you immune to most hits.

    It only took EA 3+ months to do something about it. Why is the beta tuner only going to be temporary?

    There's no immunity to putting the puck on your backhand. Look at the physics of this clip. The carrier is moving away from the defender. They are both moving very slow. There's very little opposing force here. Even if they were knocked off the puck, they'd probably get it back as it's on his backhand and chances are good it's going to be pushed away off his backhand, but still within reach of the carrier.

    If two people are standing still and the first gives the second a strong shove, the person shoved will stumble. The first person doesn't have to be running to successfully shove the second person. And that's on land, not on ice.

    The argument that a shove should do nothing unless the person shoving also has momentum is not at all realistic.

    There's very little opposing force here. I would think trying to shove a professional player carrying the puck and moving away from someone trying to hit them in the direction they are moving would result in at most a stumble where the puck continues in the direction they were traveling where they could easily get it back.
  • zingaa1 wrote: »
    TheMajjam wrote: »
    [When you're a defenseman and your hits are nerfed so you do the next best thing]

    8VNkBX3.gif

    Poking here would be a penalty, so that's ruled out. So would a reaching stick lift. Ruled out. Positioning and hitting is all I have left. I think my positioning is great, and you'd think that my back-skating crossover would give me enough momentum to separate the puck from a guy who isn't skating and is just holding the puck away with a slow speed, off-hand protect. However, attempting to hit here not only does absolutely nothing, but slows me down and doesn't slow the forward down any.

    And some of you guys want to keep hits nerfed and slow the speed of the D.

    With that, you needed to be in front of the player more, you were already beat. Agreed a nudge should slow them down, but you have to admit, you were beat. I would have poked right when they received the puck at the blue line, but that's just me.

    [Socair - edited quote to reflect change]

    In real life the defender would have been successful on that play. He would be able to carry the attacker to the board and pin him there. Something this game has severely lacked since, well, always.

    Oh I agree, but I'm talking strictly NHL 19 logic, I hardly ever make reference to real life, I would drive myself insane.
  • Sinbin
    1324 posts Member
    Fatboyee wrote: »
    Sinbin wrote: »
    ExSnake01 wrote: »
    Also that clip demonstrates how putting the puck on your forehand or backhand will make you immune to most hits.

    It only took EA 3+ months to do something about it. Why is the beta tuner only going to be temporary?

    There's no immunity to putting the puck on your backhand. Look at the physics of this clip. The carrier is moving away from the defender. They are both moving very slow. There's very little opposing force here. Even if they were knocked off the puck, they'd probably get it back as it's on his backhand and chances are good it's going to be pushed away off his backhand, but still within reach of the carrier.

    With all due respect. I was looking at the nhl 18 forum and i saw you in there arguing against what prople were saying about last years game. In my opinion i think you are too close to the franchise to objectively reply to what everyone is suggesting. It takes a lot of effort to keep replying to people while trying to counter arguments each year.

    Anyway, if a real hockey player moves the puck to the same position, a slight nudge would likely cause him to lose the puck. Certain stick positions should be more prone to losing the puck when contact is made. The video showed a situation that shouldnt happen (using odd stick positions to become invincible every now and then).

    I don't just counter everything just because. I do it because that's how I feel. This community doesn't do well with those that feel differently. If you don't agree, you either work for EA, are a fan boy, troll or any number of things. I'm as close to this series as anyone else here. I just have different opinions.

    I don't see how a slight nudge is going to knock the puck loose from a pro player in this case. You are never invincible just by pulling the puck to your backhand/forehand. For this play in particular, look what's happening. I've already explained it so I won't do it again. I don't see how a nudge should make you lose the puck in this scenario. Again, even if they did, the defender is in a bad position to pick it up.
  • WainGretSki
    2998 posts Member
    edited January 2
    Sinbin wrote: »
    Fatboyee wrote: »
    Sinbin wrote: »
    ExSnake01 wrote: »
    Also that clip demonstrates how putting the puck on your forehand or backhand will make you immune to most hits.

    It only took EA 3+ months to do something about it. Why is the beta tuner only going to be temporary?

    There's no immunity to putting the puck on your backhand. Look at the physics of this clip. The carrier is moving away from the defender. They are both moving very slow. There's very little opposing force here. Even if they were knocked off the puck, they'd probably get it back as it's on his backhand and chances are good it's going to be pushed away off his backhand, but still within reach of the carrier.

    With all due respect. I was looking at the nhl 18 forum and i saw you in there arguing against what prople were saying about last years game. In my opinion i think you are too close to the franchise to objectively reply to what everyone is suggesting. It takes a lot of effort to keep replying to people while trying to counter arguments each year.

    Anyway, if a real hockey player moves the puck to the same position, a slight nudge would likely cause him to lose the puck. Certain stick positions should be more prone to losing the puck when contact is made. The video showed a situation that shouldnt happen (using odd stick positions to become invincible every now and then).

    I don't just counter everything just because. I do it because that's how I feel. This community doesn't do well with those that feel differently. If you don't agree, you either work for EA, are a fan boy, troll or any number of things. I'm as close to this series as anyone else here. I just have different opinions.

    I don't see how a slight nudge is going to knock the puck loose from a pro player in this case. You are never invincible just by pulling the puck to your backhand/forehand. For this play in particular, look what's happening. I've already explained it so I won't do it again. I don't see how a nudge should make you lose the puck in this scenario. Again, even if they did, the defender is in a bad position to pick it up.

    The defender is in a bad position to pick up the puck after the game negated his body check. In real life, that is a good hockey play for the defender. This game isn't tuned that way, it promotes goals as much as it can. If low speed hits want to be negated, then they have to add a mechanic to the physical side of the game. Say for example, if you use the RS to go for a hit, but hold the RS then it carries the player to the board where you can then initiate a board pin. In this game, you either check, or don't. It is ridiculous to have physical play that is either 100% or 0%. Physical play isn't only about hitting a player.
  • Sinbin wrote: »
    Fatboyee wrote: »
    Sinbin wrote: »
    ExSnake01 wrote: »
    Also that clip demonstrates how putting the puck on your forehand or backhand will make you immune to most hits.

    It only took EA 3+ months to do something about it. Why is the beta tuner only going to be temporary?

    There's no immunity to putting the puck on your backhand. Look at the physics of this clip. The carrier is moving away from the defender. They are both moving very slow. There's very little opposing force here. Even if they were knocked off the puck, they'd probably get it back as it's on his backhand and chances are good it's going to be pushed away off his backhand, but still within reach of the carrier.

    With all due respect. I was looking at the nhl 18 forum and i saw you in there arguing against what prople were saying about last years game. In my opinion i think you are too close to the franchise to objectively reply to what everyone is suggesting. It takes a lot of effort to keep replying to people while trying to counter arguments each year.

    Anyway, if a real hockey player moves the puck to the same position, a slight nudge would likely cause him to lose the puck. Certain stick positions should be more prone to losing the puck when contact is made. The video showed a situation that shouldnt happen (using odd stick positions to become invincible every now and then).

    I don't just counter everything just because. I do it because that's how I feel. This community doesn't do well with those that feel differently. If you don't agree, you either work for EA, are a fan boy, troll or any number of things. I'm as close to this series as anyone else here. I just have different opinions.

    I don't see how a slight nudge is going to knock the puck loose from a pro player in this case. You are never invincible just by pulling the puck to your backhand/forehand. For this play in particular, look what's happening. I've already explained it so I won't do it again. I don't see how a nudge should make you lose the puck in this scenario. Again, even if they did, the defender is in a bad position to pick it up.

    At minimum the nudge should throw the player off of the line they are taking towards the faceoff dot to prevent the skater getting to a high scoring area. Not every argument in here is saying the puck should come loose on every point of contact, because it shouldnt. The fact that the player isn't phased in ANY WAY is a problem.
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