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When is beta tuner coming?!

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  • Sgt_Kelso
    1325 posts Member
    edited January 2019
    I dunno what you're talking about, common sense says that if you center of mass is not where it's supposed to be (your core), you're not in balance, and are always in danger of tipping over even by yourself, and can be very easily pushed down? If you overly lean on your stick like and old man (Gandalf?), any hit, poke or stick-lift at the stick should tip you over or at least make you stumble, as you suddenly lose your balance...

    How can you push a player towards his center of mass? Center of mass is a single point, and it doesn't matter where you push or hit from, it's always away from the center of mass, aint it?

    This is yet another example of unrealistic physics in the game, there's no way Kane in those vids is leaning on his stick for support. If he did, he wouldn't be handling the puck so agile. No wonder this series is such a mess.

  • KidShowtime1867
    1839 posts Member
    edited January 2019
    Sgt_Kelso wrote: »

    The guy hits poke check

    QHArFDH.png


    Initiates DSS

    2CBNEY9.png


    And then hits R3 for another poke check, right to the skates of the puck carrier

    JWl1OeN.png


    That's a pretty black and white case of being a penalty. Not sure what the issue is in this video?

    EDIT: I'm an idiot.
    Post edited by KidShowtime1867 on
  • Sgt_Kelso
    1325 posts Member
    edited January 2019
    I think you're looking at the wrong thing.... :D

    Hint: look at the dude's helmet. I wasnt trying to prove anything, just to provide some comic relief...
  • Sgt_Kelso wrote: »
    I think you're looking at the wrong thing.... :D

    Hint: look at the dude's helmet. I wasnt trying to prove anything, just to provide some comic relief...

    LMAO so sorry man haha.

    I saw the bug with the guy's face but assumed the video was for the trip. lol again - sorry about that.
  • No problem, KidShowtime1867! It really cracked us up when we saw that helmet during a game :p
  • MooseHunter10
    403 posts Member
    edited January 2019
    NHLDev wrote: »

    So with our tuning, all of this is possible, there are just certain tipping points in terms of what the relative speed is, the players involved (attributes and size) and the angle of the collision relative to the puck carriers center of mass and their ability to keep the puck.

    If you push the player towards the puck and their center of mass it will take more than if you push them away from it and the bigger the advantage of the defensive player from an attributes and/or size perspective relative to the puck carrier, the easier it will be as well.

    In the end, staying goal side and finding a way to disrupt the stick and the puck is the most important thing and if you have the advantage and the right opportunity, a good timed push check can work well too. It will just always be better, regardless of player matchup, to get to a position where you can push a player away from the puck rather than towards it.

    Puck carrier moving at minimum speed with stick curled away = Cant poke or its a trip, cant check because the hit is "towards the puck." In all those GIFs above with Patty Kane circling, he kept moving. If he stood still with stick pulled back, he'd get smoked. Its his shiftyness/quickness that keeps the puck, not his balance.

    Every action needs pros/cons and counters. If winding up for a shot = better wrist shot, it shouldnt also be better balance. If winding up for a shot protects from pokes, it should make you more susceptible to pushes/hits. This is where the boring defense comes from.

    [Socair - edited swear filter]
    EASHL player
  • NHLDev wrote: »

    So with our tuning, all of this is possible, there are just certain tipping points in terms of what the relative speed is, the players involved (attributes and size) and the angle of the collision relative to the puck carriers center of mass and their ability to keep the puck.

    If you push the player towards the puck and their center of mass it will take more than if you push them away from it and the bigger the advantage of the defensive player from an attributes and/or size perspective relative to the puck carrier, the easier it will be as well.

    In the end, staying goal side and finding a way to disrupt the stick and the puck is the most important thing and if you have the advantage and the right opportunity, a good timed push check can work well too. It will just always be better, regardless of player matchup, to get to a position where you can push a player away from the puck rather than towards it.

    Puck carrier moving at minimum speed with stick curled away = Cant poke or its a trip, cant check because the hit is "towards the puck." In all those GIFs above with Patty Kane circling, he kept moving. If he stood still with stick pulled back, he'd get smoked. Its his shiftyness/quickness that keeps the puck, not his balance.

    Every action needs pros/cons and counters. If winding up for a shot = better wrist shot, it shouldnt also be better balance. If winding up for a shot protects from pokes, it should make you more susceptible to pushes/hits. This is where the boring defense comes from.

    [Socair - edited swear filter]

    Strongly agree here. I have said so before and completely agree that every move should have a counter. Like aggressive D goes for a hit, player dekes around him. Something along those lines.
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    Sgt_Kelso wrote: »
    I dunno what you're talking about, common sense says that if you center of mass is not where it's supposed to be (your core), you're not in balance, and are always in danger of tipping over even by yourself, and can be very easily pushed down? If you overly lean on your stick like and old man (Gandalf?), any hit, poke or stick-lift at the stick should tip you over or at least make you stumble, as you suddenly lose your balance...

    How can you push a player towards his center of mass? Center of mass is a single point, and it doesn't matter where you push or hit from, it's always away from the center of mass, aint it?

    This is yet another example of unrealistic physics in the game, there's no way Kane in those vids is leaning on his stick for support. If he did, he wouldn't be handling the puck so agile. No wonder this series is such a mess.
    Sure, if you are standing still you are getting pushed away from your balance point in any direction. However, holding balance/recovering when pushed forward is the easiest and when pushed backwards, it is the hardest. Then also think about when you are motion how your hips aren't right above your skates when you are turning and driving in for example. So to get you to go up and past that balance point takes more than when you are just getting pushed further away from it.

    When it comes to puck control, getting pushed towards the puck, it is easier to keep it than if you are pushed away from it. Just purely from a puck control standpoint, even without thinking of balance as you have more moments to keep/regain that control.

    So it is balance but also directions that are easier to recover to as well.

    We aren't saying a player is leaning on their stick for balance and you are right in the way you are thinking about center of mass. However if someone is driving and leaning in to the right and you are pushing that player to their left left, to push them off balance you need to push them up past their center to the other side where as it they were standing still, you just need to push them off of that center. That is part of where if you were bracing for something you would want to lean into it and try to offset with the force that is going to stop you from going off balance.

    If a player is rolling their stick behind them, that center point of balance is much closer to the edge of where they would have balance and that is why they are less balanced than if they are gliding and stickhandling with the puck in front where you would need to push them further to get them off balance towards a direction that is harder to recover (i.e. pushing them from the front backwards).

    So getting pushed towards the puck has to do with chance of keeping the puck itself but your balance is more about where you are getting pushed relative to your hips and the relative angles of being able to recover. Thus the easiest way to get pushed off the puck is a shove from the front that pushes you away from the puck towards your heels and the strongest chance to keep it is a shove in the back towards the puck.
  • NHLDev wrote: »

    So with our tuning, all of this is possible, there are just certain tipping points in terms of what the relative speed is, the players involved (attributes and size) and the angle of the collision relative to the puck carriers center of mass and their ability to keep the puck.

    If you push the player towards the puck and their center of mass it will take more than if you push them away from it and the bigger the advantage of the defensive player from an attributes and/or size perspective relative to the puck carrier, the easier it will be as well.

    In the end, staying goal side and finding a way to disrupt the stick and the puck is the most important thing and if you have the advantage and the right opportunity, a good timed push check can work well too. It will just always be better, regardless of player matchup, to get to a position where you can push a player away from the puck rather than towards it.

    Puck carrier moving at minimum speed with stick curled away = Cant poke or its a trip, cant check because the hit is "towards the puck." In all those GIFs above with Patty Kane circling, he kept moving. If he stood still with stick pulled back, he'd get smoked. Its his shiftyness/quickness that keeps the puck, not his balance.

    Every action needs pros/cons and counters. If winding up for a shot = better wrist shot, it shouldnt also be better balance. If winding up for a shot protects from pokes, it should make you more susceptible to pushes/hits. This is where the boring defense comes from.

    [Socair - edited swear filter]

    Cons:

    1. You have to sacrifice speed
    2. Cant slap shot
    3. Lower pass strength
    4. Lower pass accuracy
    5. Cant move your feet

    Pros:

    You cant poke through my body

  • MooseHunter10
    403 posts Member
    edited January 2019
    jiajji wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »

    So with our tuning, all of this is possible, there are just certain tipping points in terms of what the relative speed is, the players involved (attributes and size) and the angle of the collision relative to the puck carriers center of mass and their ability to keep the puck.

    If you push the player towards the puck and their center of mass it will take more than if you push them away from it and the bigger the advantage of the defensive player from an attributes and/or size perspective relative to the puck carrier, the easier it will be as well.

    In the end, staying goal side and finding a way to disrupt the stick and the puck is the most important thing and if you have the advantage and the right opportunity, a good timed push check can work well too. It will just always be better, regardless of player matchup, to get to a position where you can push a player away from the puck rather than towards it.

    Puck carrier moving at minimum speed with stick curled away = Cant poke or its a trip, cant check because the hit is "towards the puck." In all those GIFs above with Patty Kane circling, he kept moving. If he stood still with stick pulled back, he'd get smoked. Its his shiftyness/quickness that keeps the puck, not his balance.

    Every action needs pros/cons and counters. If winding up for a shot = better wrist shot, it shouldnt also be better balance. If winding up for a shot protects from pokes, it should make you more susceptible to pushes/hits. This is where the boring defense comes from.

    [Socair - edited swear filter]

    Cons:

    1. You have to sacrifice speed
    2. Cant slap shot
    3. Lower pass strength
    4. Lower pass accuracy
    5. Cant move your feet

    Pros:

    You cant poke through my body

    I was not aware of any penalty to passing while holding the puck back. I don't actually believe it, as I saucer pass on backhand from behind my goal line up the boards for rushes all the time with bad passing classes.

    Whats the downside to not moving your feet/sacrificing speed once you've gained the zone? In real hockey, the ref isn't giving you the tripping call if you aren't working with your legs, unless the guy pitch forks / can openers you.

    If your feet aren't moving, maybe you shouldn't be able to draw a trip. The pokes obviously shouldn't knock them down either. If they have the balance to avoid the push/hit while @ minimum speed, they should have to have the balance to avoid falling from a slight tap. The dev's already made it so your stick wouldn't affect the puck if it had to first clip through a body. Id love the drop stick animation here to punish the defender for a poor poke without giving up the PP.

    Perhaps part of the fault here is that they should be able to move their feet (T pushes?) while holding the puck out, and remove that balance bonus.

    Comes back to the puck carrier with puck curled back seemingly has:
    extra agility
    extra balance
    extra wrist shot power
    extra tripping penalties drawn
    can still pass in 360 degrees

    Is holding the puck back a puck-control maneuver, or is it a power wrist shot maneuver. It shouldn't be both.
    EASHL player
  • jiajji wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »

    So with our tuning, all of this is possible, there are just certain tipping points in terms of what the relative speed is, the players involved (attributes and size) and the angle of the collision relative to the puck carriers center of mass and their ability to keep the puck.

    If you push the player towards the puck and their center of mass it will take more than if you push them away from it and the bigger the advantage of the defensive player from an attributes and/or size perspective relative to the puck carrier, the easier it will be as well.

    In the end, staying goal side and finding a way to disrupt the stick and the puck is the most important thing and if you have the advantage and the right opportunity, a good timed push check can work well too. It will just always be better, regardless of player matchup, to get to a position where you can push a player away from the puck rather than towards it.

    Puck carrier moving at minimum speed with stick curled away = Cant poke or its a trip, cant check because the hit is "towards the puck." In all those GIFs above with Patty Kane circling, he kept moving. If he stood still with stick pulled back, he'd get smoked. Its his shiftyness/quickness that keeps the puck, not his balance.

    Every action needs pros/cons and counters. If winding up for a shot = better wrist shot, it shouldnt also be better balance. If winding up for a shot protects from pokes, it should make you more susceptible to pushes/hits. This is where the boring defense comes from.

    [Socair - edited swear filter]

    Cons:

    1. You have to sacrifice speed
    2. Cant slap shot
    3. Lower pass strength
    4. Lower pass accuracy
    5. Cant move your feet

    Pros:

    You cant poke through my body

    1. Actually don't need speed as you have positioning and is very hard to get knocked off that positioning.
    2. Slapshots are not really used compared to wrist shots and are not as deadly as wristshots.
    3. Pass strength is still more than enough to get off a really good pass.
    4. Pass accuracy is actually higher as well as shot accuracy because your player is "settled".
    5. Granted you can't move your feet, but you can easily pass or shoot without penalty.

    Risk/reward tells me I don't need to move my feet at all.
  • Sgt_Kelso wrote: »
    I think you're looking at the wrong thing.... :D

    Hint: look at the dude's helmet. I wasnt trying to prove anything, just to provide some comic relief...

    LMAO so sorry man haha.

    I saw the bug with the guy's face but assumed the video was for the trip. lol again - sorry about that.

    Hey bro, you trying to start a bromance with someone else???
  • jiajji wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »

    So with our tuning, all of this is possible, there are just certain tipping points in terms of what the relative speed is, the players involved (attributes and size) and the angle of the collision relative to the puck carriers center of mass and their ability to keep the puck.

    If you push the player towards the puck and their center of mass it will take more than if you push them away from it and the bigger the advantage of the defensive player from an attributes and/or size perspective relative to the puck carrier, the easier it will be as well.

    In the end, staying goal side and finding a way to disrupt the stick and the puck is the most important thing and if you have the advantage and the right opportunity, a good timed push check can work well too. It will just always be better, regardless of player matchup, to get to a position where you can push a player away from the puck rather than towards it.

    Puck carrier moving at minimum speed with stick curled away = Cant poke or its a trip, cant check because the hit is "towards the puck." In all those GIFs above with Patty Kane circling, he kept moving. If he stood still with stick pulled back, he'd get smoked. Its his shiftyness/quickness that keeps the puck, not his balance.

    Every action needs pros/cons and counters. If winding up for a shot = better wrist shot, it shouldnt also be better balance. If winding up for a shot protects from pokes, it should make you more susceptible to pushes/hits. This is where the boring defense comes from.

    [Socair - edited swear filter]

    Cons:

    1. You have to sacrifice speed
    2. Cant slap shot
    3. Lower pass strength
    4. Lower pass accuracy
    5. Cant move your feet

    Pros:

    You cant poke through my body

    1. Actually don't need speed as you have positioning and is very hard to get knocked off that positioning.
    2. Slapshots are not really used compared to wrist shots and are not as deadly as wristshots.
    3. Pass strength is still more than enough to get off a really good pass.
    4. Pass accuracy is actually higher as well as shot accuracy because your player is "settled".
    5. Granted you can't move your feet, but you can easily pass or shoot without penalty.

    Risk/reward tells me I don't need to move my feet at all.

    Your responses make it sound as though in your hypothetical the puck carrier is already in a scoring area when the puck is held forehand or backhand. At some point you've got to take responsibility for positioning and on that point I assume we're going to agree to disagree.
  • jiajji wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »

    So with our tuning, all of this is possible, there are just certain tipping points in terms of what the relative speed is, the players involved (attributes and size) and the angle of the collision relative to the puck carriers center of mass and their ability to keep the puck.

    If you push the player towards the puck and their center of mass it will take more than if you push them away from it and the bigger the advantage of the defensive player from an attributes and/or size perspective relative to the puck carrier, the easier it will be as well.

    In the end, staying goal side and finding a way to disrupt the stick and the puck is the most important thing and if you have the advantage and the right opportunity, a good timed push check can work well too. It will just always be better, regardless of player matchup, to get to a position where you can push a player away from the puck rather than towards it.

    Puck carrier moving at minimum speed with stick curled away = Cant poke or its a trip, cant check because the hit is "towards the puck." In all those GIFs above with Patty Kane circling, he kept moving. If he stood still with stick pulled back, he'd get smoked. Its his shiftyness/quickness that keeps the puck, not his balance.

    Every action needs pros/cons and counters. If winding up for a shot = better wrist shot, it shouldnt also be better balance. If winding up for a shot protects from pokes, it should make you more susceptible to pushes/hits. This is where the boring defense comes from.

    [Socair - edited swear filter]

    Cons:

    1. You have to sacrifice speed
    2. Cant slap shot
    3. Lower pass strength
    4. Lower pass accuracy
    5. Cant move your feet

    Pros:

    You cant poke through my body

    I was not aware of any penalty to passing while holding the puck back. I don't actually believe it, as I saucer pass on backhand from behind my goal line up the boards for rushes all the time with bad passing classes.

    Whats the downside to not moving your feet/sacrificing speed once you've gained the zone? In real hockey, the ref isn't giving you the tripping call if you aren't working with your legs, unless the guy pitch forks / can openers you.

    If your feet aren't moving, maybe you shouldn't be able to draw a trip. The pokes obviously shouldn't knock them down either. If they have the balance to avoid the push/hit while @ minimum speed, they should have to have the balance to avoid falling from a slight tap. The dev's already made it so your stick wouldn't affect the puck if it had to first clip through a body. Id love the drop stick animation here to punish the defender for a poor poke without giving up the PP.

    Perhaps part of the fault here is that they should be able to move their feet (T pushes?) while holding the puck out, and remove that balance bonus.

    Comes back to the puck carrier with puck curled back seemingly has:
    extra agility
    extra balance
    extra wrist shot power
    extra tripping penalties drawn
    can still pass in 360 degrees

    Is holding the puck back a puck-control maneuver, or is it a power wrist shot maneuver. It shouldn't be both.

    I'm really not a fan of the trips, but there is definitely a need to keep spamming to a minimum. It would be interesting to see some of your solutions in game, but when things go live they sometimes play unexpectedly
  • WainGretSki
    3660 posts Member
    edited January 2019
    jiajji wrote: »
    jiajji wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »

    So with our tuning, all of this is possible, there are just certain tipping points in terms of what the relative speed is, the players involved (attributes and size) and the angle of the collision relative to the puck carriers center of mass and their ability to keep the puck.

    If you push the player towards the puck and their center of mass it will take more than if you push them away from it and the bigger the advantage of the defensive player from an attributes and/or size perspective relative to the puck carrier, the easier it will be as well.

    In the end, staying goal side and finding a way to disrupt the stick and the puck is the most important thing and if you have the advantage and the right opportunity, a good timed push check can work well too. It will just always be better, regardless of player matchup, to get to a position where you can push a player away from the puck rather than towards it.

    Puck carrier moving at minimum speed with stick curled away = Cant poke or its a trip, cant check because the hit is "towards the puck." In all those GIFs above with Patty Kane circling, he kept moving. If he stood still with stick pulled back, he'd get smoked. Its his shiftyness/quickness that keeps the puck, not his balance.

    Every action needs pros/cons and counters. If winding up for a shot = better wrist shot, it shouldnt also be better balance. If winding up for a shot protects from pokes, it should make you more susceptible to pushes/hits. This is where the boring defense comes from.

    [Socair - edited swear filter]

    Cons:

    1. You have to sacrifice speed
    2. Cant slap shot
    3. Lower pass strength
    4. Lower pass accuracy
    5. Cant move your feet

    Pros:

    You cant poke through my body

    1. Actually don't need speed as you have positioning and is very hard to get knocked off that positioning.
    2. Slapshots are not really used compared to wrist shots and are not as deadly as wristshots.
    3. Pass strength is still more than enough to get off a really good pass.
    4. Pass accuracy is actually higher as well as shot accuracy because your player is "settled".
    5. Granted you can't move your feet, but you can easily pass or shoot without penalty.

    Risk/reward tells me I don't need to move my feet at all.

    Your responses make it sound as though in your hypothetical the puck carrier is already in a scoring area when the puck is held forehand or backhand. At some point you've got to take responsibility for positioning and on that point I assume we're going to agree to disagree.

    The thing is, you don't have to be in a scoring position. When the player is not in a position to score, he is absolutely in a position to bait defenders to him to create more space for his teammates and/or passing. Alot of times a second player comes in to help because his teammate can't get the physical edge on the carrier. Next thing you know another player is compensating an area to cover, then another compensates for him, etc. Chaos. Chaos should be created by passing, cycling, and piercing seams. Not by abusing a lack of physical play that pulls people out of position.

    Where is the logic in having your stick curled behind you on the forehand, yet you can still let off a very decent backhand pass? The backhanded pass should have like almost no power to it as the arms are already fully extended. In real life, you can't do this. Like, not even remotely.

    And to be clear, oddly enough, I do agree with you for the most part on alot of the topics and discussions here. You lean a little more towards the current tuning was fine, whereas I lean towards it isn't as fine. But we are really not that far off from each other.
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    I have a few things to add after reading the last few posts. Getting a player to glide and stop moving their feet is a big win for defense. Even better if you can get them to glide out towards the boards or curl away from the net. And even better if it is to put them towards their backhand side.

    As soon as a puck carrier stops moving their feet, it should be easy to get back into position as everyone is faster than them at that point. It is really only an issue for players already out of position and for those that are in a 'get the puck right now' mentality.

    For them to shoot, the puck has to come back through a certain spot that you can easily take away/disrupt, even with just incidental contact but you can increase that with manual DSS position.

    Those arguing about passing ability seem to be missing the point that most are trying to make which is to encourage team play. The more we lower pass and pass reception ability, even though some of it would be realistic to do, the more we promote one man shows. Check out the feedback from NHL 16 where we had pass error and receptions on your backhand, etc. set even more realistic. We didn't really have EASHL teams working harder to open up to their forehand or moving to positions that were easier angles to pass to, we had players elect to not pass, even if that meant losing the puck and saying that our overall mechanics weren't encouraging team play. So you need to be careful when you start to talk about passing being OP when you want to get rid of one man show offense, even if it is backhand pass speed/ability specifically. And that is coming from someone that would personally like to see us in a place where we could tune down backhand passes even more.
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    I have a few things to add after reading the last few posts. Getting a player to glide and stop moving their feet is a big win for defense. Even better if you can get them to glide out towards the boards or curl away from the net. And even better if it is to put them towards their backhand side.

    As soon as a puck carrier stops moving their feet, it should be easy to get back into position as everyone is faster than them at that point. It is really only an issue for players already out of position and for those that are in a 'get the puck right now' mentality.

    For them to shoot, the puck has to come back through a certain spot that you can easily take away/disrupt, even with just incidental contact but you can increase that with manual DSS position.

    Those arguing about passing ability seem to be missing the point that most are trying to make which is to encourage team play. The more we lower pass and pass reception ability, even though some of it would be realistic to do, the more we promote one man shows. Check out the feedback from NHL 16 where we had pass error and receptions on your backhand, etc. set even more realistic. We didn't really have EASHL teams working harder to open up to their forehand or moving to positions that were easier angles to pass to, we had players elect to not pass, even if that meant losing the puck and saying that our overall mechanics weren't encouraging team play. So you need to be careful when you start to talk about passing being OP when you want to get rid of one man show offense, even if it is backhand pass speed/ability specifically. And that is coming from someone that would personally like to see us in a place where we could tune down backhand passes even more.

    Excellent point and I guess I'll have to agree on this one. Logic wants what logic wants :tongue:
  • I dont know. I only play franschise anf have tried both the latest added tuner and 1.0 none of them is the beta?
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