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NHL 19 - Everything was tripping

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  • VeNOM2099
    3178 posts Member
    edited February 2019
    The poking mechanics can and certainly should be, let's say for lack of a better word, "overhauled".

    Other than the physics anomalies we see, in no way whatsoever should poke checking get 'overhauled'.

    Absolutely no way. It needs to be improved upon, not completely re-tooled.

    To be fair, seems to be built upon for many years. I think it does need to be overhauled. I don't see much difference from say NHL 14. The rules of it have changed quite a bit though.

    DSS was first introduced in NHL 09. Here's the video of David Littman explaining it:



    You can see an example of a player waving his stick in front of him, much like we can do now, except it was clunky and not as useful as the poke checks or stick lifts back in the day.

    So you'd be right in claiming that the feature was simply expanded and refined over the years. I also agree that it could be much better, but not necessarily that it should be overhauled. To me, if DSS was more useful, people would slowly stop relying on poke checking so much. That's why I hate that DSS can cause tripping penalties so easily: if you hold your stick out and the opponent skates through it, he'll go down. I can use it very well in most situations, but there are some where I wish I had more control over the range of it. I don't necessarily want to hold my stick out 3-4 feet around me all the time.

    Poke checking should have a cooldown period so that you can use it over and over again (if you want), but you can't machine-gun it like a lot of people online do. Yes, there's a penalty for constantly pressing the RB like that, both in accuracy and in your skating, but it's not enough. People will keep mashing it because the risks don't outweigh the rewards for doing so.

    Stick lifts are the next mechanic that, IMO, would need a proper overhaul. Something like NHL 2K10 used to have where depending on what angle you came at your opponent, your speed and positioning, different stick lift animations would play out. Some where you tie up the stick and the situation is reset. Some where you take away possession, and some where you try but lose possession or get a penalty. Tired of seeing the same ol' "tomahawk chop" motion for stick lifting for 10 years. LOL.

    EDIT: And yes, poke checking is largely the same mechanic it's always been. Again, it's been refined over the years, but the mechanic hasn't seen any major overhauls like other parts of the game has. I guess it's because the devs never felt like it was broken, so why try to fix it?
    Post edited by VeNOM2099 on
  • I don't see much difference from say NHL 14.

    I sincerely hope this is an attempt at hyperbole, because to make a claim you "don't see much difference (in poke checking) from say NHL 14" is concrete proof you're not as familiar with the mechanic as you claim.

    Then please by all means enlighten me.

    It was only last year's game that introduced the defensive skill stick. Mapped directly to the poke check button and utilizing the right stick for (close to) 1:1 movement, allowing for TONS of options on defense.

    Using DSS combined with the R3 click for poke checking, you can now determine at which angle you poke check from.

    To claim that poke checking has gone unchanged in 5 years is a demonstration on how some people in this community argue about mechanics that they don't understand fully.

    I am not talking at all about the DSS. It isn't a poke check, although yes you can poke check from it.

    Straight up R1 poke is hardly any different than NHL 14. The animations and travel distance are the same.

    You are combining things that are irrelevant to tell me I clearly don't understand something....
  • Bottom line is Tripping or the tripping penalty is vastly different than it’s ever been. It’s a drastic change and I’m not a fan of it. I don’t poke spam but I’m not a fan of entire box scores filled with tripping penalties. It’s not fun even when I’m on the receiving end of a game-long power-play. Surprisingly, EA has made it very easy for me to drop this game after 20+ years. The game has been stale the 5 at least and its biggest/lastest gameplay “improvement” after all this time is going zero tolerance on pokes/trips. Great improvement!
  • You are combining things that are irrelevant to tell me I clearly don't understand something....

    How is poke checking using R3 during DSS not relevant to poke checking?
  • I just don’t to get why penalties were the way to solve the issue instead making it ineffectual.. except for small pies.. where it would be successful, partially successful, and trip. Hopefully in a week or two things will get better, but right now people are raging out on the daily.

    Obviously changing any ingrained behavior can be challenging. And just takes time and repetition. We know part of it is retraining your brain, but the other is the muscle memory in our hands. Compounding the issue is that poke often is used in quicker//twitchier situations. I see it all the time. The first call makes someone a bit insecure. Especially if it felt boarderline. Now they are worried they can’t do their jobs, or do them as well, or worse.. Fail and get back in the box. All of these things affect how they make decisions and in tight games we know that leads to mistakes. Of course..inevitably.. this happens and the spiral begins again. Often this leads to them either raging out, yelling a lot, and generally not having a good time.

    Personally I’m more of a let them play kinda guy. Relatively loose, but fair and consistent on both sides of the puck. No cheap stuff and keep it fun.

    Don’t get me wrong. I’ve had a lot of really good games lately. Some wins, some losses often with very low penalties. But when it goes south lol...

    .. I do get both sides of the coin, and with the defensive/forechecking gains available with bump/checks, and stick lift//DSS in this tuner would be more than willing to concede the poke penalties in the spirit of compromise with what I’ve read from the lg folks during rollback.

    Still, this just feels like the hard way. Maybe it was a programming thing. 🤷‍♂️
    All Comments pertain to 6v6 drop in unless otherwise stated..
  • noratio
    30 posts Member
    edited February 2019
    Guys, stick lifting for once is fixed from previous years. So no change there please. Improvement needs to happen with poke check to reduce penalities for tripping coming from front or even beside. If for what ever reason someone wants to make the other player trip, he can for example hold the poke check longer, otherwise, we want to poke.. not make someone trip. NHL 20 will have to get this fixes, plus the vs where you should be able to cancel a game based on the opponent's Internet quality. How many games you got to quit because of poor/laggy/underframe rate because of a kiddo that plays over WiFi and downloading movies at the same time on their poor dsl connexion. I am wired, gigabit fiber and I should have the right to play with someone with similar connexion for an optimal experience.
  • You are combining things that are irrelevant to tell me I clearly don't understand something....

    How is poke checking using R3 during DSS not relevant to poke checking?

    Straight up poke checks are the same since NHL 14.
  • Penalties will always be a problem in this game. There's just too many, and really, the only way to learn to not take them is to use less poke. Which is a terrible way to go about it because when you don't have the puck, that's what you're going to do. Poke at the puck! Someone watch a hockey game and count how many times players poke at the puck throughout the entire game, then match the ratio to how many times it gets a tripping call in the game. DSS is 'slightly' better, but I don't feel like I have that moment to moment control over it. No sure if this was fixed in a patch/tuner, but I took a tripping penalty for going down to block a shot. LOL.

    Defenders of the poke just keep moving the goalposts. First it was 'stop spamming poke'. Then when people showed videos/gifs of no spamming, it became 'you're poking in bad position'. When showing videos that the position could have been questionable, it became 'should have used DSS there instead of poke." And my all-time favorite comment used when I've posted gifs of players dodging sure hits and retaining the puck, I got 'should've poked there!'.

    There could have been an easy fix for this and that was to make the poke less effective, rather than doling about penalties.

  • TheMajjam wrote: »
    Penalties will always be a problem in this game. There's just too many, and really, the only way to learn to not take them is to use less poke. Which is a terrible way to go about it because when you don't have the puck, that's what you're going to do. Poke at the puck! Someone watch a hockey game and count how many times players poke at the puck throughout the entire game, then match the ratio to how many times it gets a tripping call in the game. DSS is 'slightly' better, but I don't feel like I have that moment to moment control over it. No sure if this was fixed in a patch/tuner, but I took a tripping penalty for going down to block a shot. LOL.

    Defenders of the poke just keep moving the goalposts. First it was 'stop spamming poke'. Then when people showed videos/gifs of no spamming, it became 'you're poking in bad position'. When showing videos that the position could have been questionable, it became 'should have used DSS there instead of poke." And my all-time favorite comment used when I've posted gifs of players dodging sure hits and retaining the puck, I got 'should've poked there!'.

    There could have been an easy fix for this and that was to make the poke less effective, rather than doling about penalties.

    Excellent. You appear to have realized that there are many factors in determining when and where to use the poke or dss. Now, you just gotta include the other defense mechanics, and apply the same what, when and where to those.

    It's not moving the goal posts. It's increasing the complexity of the mechanic explanation.
  • TheMajjam wrote: »
    Penalties will always be a problem in this game. There's just too many, and really, the only way to learn to not take them is to use less poke. Which is a terrible way to go about it because when you don't have the puck, that's what you're going to do. Poke at the puck! Someone watch a hockey game and count how many times players poke at the puck throughout the entire game, then match the ratio to how many times it gets a tripping call in the game. DSS is 'slightly' better, but I don't feel like I have that moment to moment control over it. No sure if this was fixed in a patch/tuner, but I took a tripping penalty for going down to block a shot. LOL.

    Defenders of the poke just keep moving the goalposts. First it was 'stop spamming poke'. Then when people showed videos/gifs of no spamming, it became 'you're poking in bad position'. When showing videos that the position could have been questionable, it became 'should have used DSS there instead of poke." And my all-time favorite comment used when I've posted gifs of players dodging sure hits and retaining the puck, I got 'should've poked there!'.

    There could have been an easy fix for this and that was to make the poke less effective, rather than doling about penalties.

    Penalties will always be a problem because the playerbase refuses to learn. When the beta came out I was done with attempting bad poke checks around rank 4 or 5. Go play a drop in now and watch 2 or 3 guys who are prestige 2 something seemingly compete for the most penalties by poking from behind. I dont know how many times you can commit the same mistake before you learn from it, but some people have a real commitment to not learning.
  • TheMajjam wrote: »
    Penalties will always be a problem in this game. There's just too many, and really, the only way to learn to not take them is to use less poke. Which is a terrible way to go about it because when you don't have the puck, that's what you're going to do. Poke at the puck! Someone watch a hockey game and count how many times players poke at the puck throughout the entire game, then match the ratio to how many times it gets a tripping call in the game. DSS is 'slightly' better, but I don't feel like I have that moment to moment control over it. No sure if this was fixed in a patch/tuner, but I took a tripping penalty for going down to block a shot. LOL.

    Defenders of the poke just keep moving the goalposts. First it was 'stop spamming poke'. Then when people showed videos/gifs of no spamming, it became 'you're poking in bad position'. When showing videos that the position could have been questionable, it became 'should have used DSS there instead of poke." And my all-time favorite comment used when I've posted gifs of players dodging sure hits and retaining the puck, I got 'should've poked there!'.

    There could have been an easy fix for this and that was to make the poke less effective, rather than doling about penalties.

    Don't take this the wrong way... But no. No you don't poke to take the puck back. You play your position correctly and wait for the puck to come to you, which will happen much sooner than later if you do it right.

    NHL players cause turnovers by forcing the other team to make bad passes or take bad shots more often than they do by poking or hitting. This mentality that you need to always have the puck when you don't have it is what's hurting this game series.

    They already tried making pokes less effective in previous years. Wasn't any better. In fact I'd argue that people would mash it even more!

    I agree that this is an "extreme" solution to the problem, but sometimes extreme measures are needed.

  • VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    TheMajjam wrote: »
    Penalties will always be a problem in this game. There's just too many, and really, the only way to learn to not take them is to use less poke. Which is a terrible way to go about it because when you don't have the puck, that's what you're going to do. Poke at the puck! Someone watch a hockey game and count how many times players poke at the puck throughout the entire game, then match the ratio to how many times it gets a tripping call in the game. DSS is 'slightly' better, but I don't feel like I have that moment to moment control over it. No sure if this was fixed in a patch/tuner, but I took a tripping penalty for going down to block a shot. LOL.

    Defenders of the poke just keep moving the goalposts. First it was 'stop spamming poke'. Then when people showed videos/gifs of no spamming, it became 'you're poking in bad position'. When showing videos that the position could have been questionable, it became 'should have used DSS there instead of poke." And my all-time favorite comment used when I've posted gifs of players dodging sure hits and retaining the puck, I got 'should've poked there!'.

    There could have been an easy fix for this and that was to make the poke less effective, rather than doling about penalties.

    Don't take this the wrong way... But no. No you don't poke to take the puck back. You play your position correctly and wait for the puck to come to you, which will happen much sooner than later if you do it right.

    NHL players cause turnovers by forcing the other team to make bad passes or take bad shots more often than they do by poking or hitting. This mentality that you need to always have the puck when you don't have it is what's hurting this game series.

    They already tried making pokes less effective in previous years. Wasn't any better. In fact I'd argue that people would mash it even more!

    I agree that this is an "extreme" solution to the problem, but sometimes extreme measures are needed.

    Agreed.

    People need to stop attacking the puck every chance they get.
  • noratio
    30 posts Member
    edited February 2019
    No, in a real game, you have to use all options you have to take the puck; lift stick, hit or poke check and as many times that you want, there are no "spam" of any of this, just options. The problem is that there are no other hockey games available on the market, so we are trying here to help the dev make a better game and by the same token sell more copies as if we listen to the groupies here, beleive me pretty soon we wont have any players in the online vs as years after years there are no improvement. NHL18 was the most desastrous version in years which I sold. This year was improvement, but nothing new in framerate, online vs, commentator.. in summary.. minor update sand EA wants another 80$. I will certainly skip 20 if it's same engine, same commentators(they are the worst, for the love of god, please bring back Jim Hughson), same graphics, no HDR... new tuners are not a new game. Anyways, at least make it part of EA access which I am a subscriber(so nice by the way to play NFL19 in 4K at full steady 60 frames ultra details hdr). But please fix the bad tripping calls penalities when we pocke check. Use another button/solution to trigger a tripping or at least make it realistic that from the back, it is a penality, we all agree with this, not from the front or beside another player its no fun. Dev; I know you can make it right for hockey fans and the goal is for EA to make money, so use your judgment to do so.
    Post edited by Socair on
  • TheMajjam
    794 posts Member
    edited February 2019
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    TheMajjam wrote: »
    Penalties will always be a problem in this game. There's just too many, and really, the only way to learn to not take them is to use less poke. Which is a terrible way to go about it because when you don't have the puck, that's what you're going to do. Poke at the puck! Someone watch a hockey game and count how many times players poke at the puck throughout the entire game, then match the ratio to how many times it gets a tripping call in the game. DSS is 'slightly' better, but I don't feel like I have that moment to moment control over it. No sure if this was fixed in a patch/tuner, but I took a tripping penalty for going down to block a shot. LOL.

    Defenders of the poke just keep moving the goalposts. First it was 'stop spamming poke'. Then when people showed videos/gifs of no spamming, it became 'you're poking in bad position'. When showing videos that the position could have been questionable, it became 'should have used DSS there instead of poke." And my all-time favorite comment used when I've posted gifs of players dodging sure hits and retaining the puck, I got 'should've poked there!'.

    There could have been an easy fix for this and that was to make the poke less effective, rather than doling about penalties.

    Don't take this the wrong way... But no. No you don't poke to take the puck back. You play your position correctly and wait for the puck to come to you, which will happen much sooner than later if you do it right.

    NHL players cause turnovers by forcing the other team to make bad passes or take bad shots more often than they do by poking or hitting. This mentality that you need to always have the puck when you don't have it is what's hurting this game series.

    They already tried making pokes less effective in previous years. Wasn't any better. In fact I'd argue that people would mash it even more!

    I agree that this is an "extreme" solution to the problem, but sometimes extreme measures are needed.

    This is the worst hockey comment I've ever heard. Are you actually watching hockey games?

    For one, I never said you need to poke to take the puck. You poke to disrupt the play. If you're lucky, you or a teammate will recover the puck. Sticks are always moving. Sticks are poking, sticks are lifting, sticks are in the lanes, even in board play you're using your stick. Hockey is stick play. It's NOT sitting there in your position or forcing bad shots by standing there like a pylon. You're always being challenged with a body or stick. Your comment makes sense if you're down a man, and want to just play lanes, but my god, players are always poking and prodding after the puck.

    Are we watching the same NHL??
  • TheMajjam
    794 posts Member
    edited February 2019
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    TheMajjam wrote: »
    Penalties will always be a problem in this game. There's just too many, and really, the only way to learn to not take them is to use less poke. Which is a terrible way to go about it because when you don't have the puck, that's what you're going to do. Poke at the puck! Someone watch a hockey game and count how many times players poke at the puck throughout the entire game, then match the ratio to how many times it gets a tripping call in the game. DSS is 'slightly' better, but I don't feel like I have that moment to moment control over it. No sure if this was fixed in a patch/tuner, but I took a tripping penalty for going down to block a shot. LOL.

    Defenders of the poke just keep moving the goalposts. First it was 'stop spamming poke'. Then when people showed videos/gifs of no spamming, it became 'you're poking in bad position'. When showing videos that the position could have been questionable, it became 'should have used DSS there instead of poke." And my all-time favorite comment used when I've posted gifs of players dodging sure hits and retaining the puck, I got 'should've poked there!'.

    There could have been an easy fix for this and that was to make the poke less effective, rather than doling about penalties.

    Don't take this the wrong way... But no. No you don't poke to take the puck back. You play your position correctly and wait for the puck to come to you, which will happen much sooner than later if you do it right.

    NHL players cause turnovers by forcing the other team to make bad passes or take bad shots more often than they do by poking or hitting. This mentality that you need to always have the puck when you don't have it is what's hurting this game series.

    They already tried making pokes less effective in previous years. Wasn't any better. In fact I'd argue that people would mash it even more!

    I agree that this is an "extreme" solution to the problem, but sometimes extreme measures are needed.

    Agreed.

    People need to stop attacking the puck every chance they get.

    This is a strange comment coming from you, Wain.

    In what universe, in any facet of hockey, professional or recreational, is the aim to not attack the puck when you can? The ONLY two instances I can think of where a coach will tell you to hold off is when there's a fast winger streaking and you want to keep him to the boards. When he gets close, you play the puck and body. Then there's the penalty kill, where you try to close the lanes. Any other time, you're attacking the puck.

    You guys going to make me post every single goal clip from games tonight off NHL just to prove the obvious about attacking with your stick.
  • TheMajjam
    794 posts Member
    edited February 2019
    RA1dMTt.gif

    Wow. What is this guy even doing! Missing DSS poke. Trying to attack the puck carrier here as he tries to go around. How dare he. Even a dive where he gets some stick, some feet, and the puck carrier keeps going. Why is this dude even using his stick. Should have just stood there in the lane and let him take a bad shot.

    That dive poke would've been tripping in NHL 19, BTW. :)
  • Z0mbieBabyJesus
    1533 posts Member
    edited February 2019
    noratio wrote: »
    No, in a real game, you have to use all options you have to take the puck; lift stick, hit or poke check and as many times that you want, there are no "spam" of any of this, just options. The problem is that there are no other hockey games available on the market, so we are trying here to help the dev make a better game and by the same token sell more copies as if we listen to the groupies here, beleive me pretty soon we wont have any players in the online vs as years after years there are no improvement. NHL18 was the most desastrous version in years which I sold. This year was improvement, but nothing new in framerate, online vs, commentator.. in summary.. minor update sand EA wants another 80$. I will certainly skip 20 if it's same engine, same commentators(they are the worst, for the love of god, please bring back Jim Hughson), same graphics, no HDR... new tuners are not a new game. Anyways, at least make it part of EA access which I am a subscriber(so nice by the way to play NFL19 in 4K at full steady 60 frames ultra details hdr). But please fix the bad tripping calls penalities when we pocke check. Use another button/solution to trigger a tripping or at least make it realistic that from the back, it is a penality, we all agree with this, not from the front or beside another player its no fun. Dev; I know you can make it right for hockey fans and the goal is for EA to make money, so use your judgment to do so.

    Yes, you do need to use all the defensive tools. You also have to use them at the correct time, and in the correct way.

    Failing to learn how to do it the correct way, and then blaming the game for taking penalties is on the player.

    [Socair - edited quote to reflect change]
    Post edited by Socair on
  • TheMajjam
    794 posts Member
    edited February 2019
    Quoting Venom here! "NHL players cause turnovers by forcing the other team to make bad passes or take bad shots more often than they do by poking or hitting. This mentality that you need to always have the puck when you don't have it is what's hurting this game series."

    OYfUZQO.gif

    Burnsy, what're you doing here! You're on the PK. You're not supposed to be attacking the puck! You need to just be in the way to force a bad pass and make the teams take bad shots. Burnsy! Why are you poking here! Wait! No! Oh wait... your poke caused a turnover that ended up as a 2 v 1 for the game winning goal? Huh. Funny that.

    FQdmA56.gif

    What is this?? Why is that guy coming up from behind and poking?? Doesn't he know people that play NHL 19 say that poking from anywhere behind a guy is wrong?? That's a penalty! Oh.. oh wait.. you mean the poke from behind dislodged the puck, didn't trip the guy, and my team regained it for a clear?

    This is called backchecking. Some might say it's even a useful tool. :) But you know, players in 19 will whine about checks from behind or successful pokes from behind.
    Post edited by TheMajjam on
  • TheMajjam
    794 posts Member
    edited February 2019
    noratio wrote: »
    No, in a real game, you have to use all options you have to take the puck; lift stick, hit or poke check and as many times that you want, there are no "spam" of any of this, just options. The problem is that there are no other hockey games available on the market, so we are trying here to help the dev make a better game and by the same token sell more copies as if we listen to the groupies here, beleive me pretty soon we wont have any players in the online vs as years after years there are no improvement. NHL18 was the most desastrous version in years which I sold. This year was improvement, but nothing new in framerate, online vs, commentator.. in summary.. minor update sand EA wants another 80$. I will certainly skip 20 if it's same engine, same commentators(they are the worst, for the love of god, please bring back Jim Hughson), same graphics, no HDR... new tuners are not a new game. Anyways, at least make it part of EA access which I am a subscriber(so nice by the way to play NFL19 in 4K at full steady 60 frames ultra details hdr). But please fix the bad tripping calls penalities when we pocke check. Use another button/solution to trigger a tripping or at least make it realistic that from the back, it is a penality, we all agree with this, not from the front or beside another player its no fun. Dev; I know you can make it right for hockey fans and the goal is for EA to make money, so use your judgment to do so and keep your jobs.

    Yes, you do need to use all the defensive tools. You also have to use them at the correct time, and in the correct way.

    Failing to learn how to do it the correct way, and then blaming the game for taking penalties is on the player.

    If I'm playing Call of Duty and the developer programs the game for five headshots to be a kill, but one shot to the arm results in a kill, because I have learned to shoot for the arm and not the obvious head, is it really my fault that I have to adapt to wrong mechanics or my fault because I keep trying for a headshot that doesn't work because it makes sense?
    Post edited by TheMajjam on
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    edited February 2019
    TheMajjam wrote: »
    Quoting Venom here! "NHL players cause turnovers by forcing the other team to make bad passes or take bad shots more often than they do by poking or hitting. This mentality that you need to always have the puck when you don't have it is what's hurting this game series."

    OYfUZQO.gif

    Burnsy, what're you doing here! You're on the PK. You're not supposed to be attacking the puck! You need to just be in the way to force a bad pass and make the teams take bad shots. Burnsy! Why are you poking here! Wait! No! Oh wait... your poke caused a turnover that ended up as a 2 v 1 for the game winning goal? Huh. Funny that.

    FQdmA56.gif

    What is this?? Why is that guy coming up from behind and poking?? Doesn't he know people that play NHL 19 say that poking from anywhere behind a guy is wrong?? That's a penalty! Oh.. oh wait.. you mean the poke from behind dislodged the puck, didn't trip the guy, and my team regained it for a clear?

    This is called backchecking. Some might say it's even a useful tool. :) But you know, players in 19 will whine about checks from behind or successful pokes from behind.

    The game mechanics allow these things as well. You can use your DSS to reach around a player and if you get stick on stick or stick on puck, you can break up the play. If you swipe through their legs from behind and don't get the puck, you will trip them.

    The mechanics in the game were all created with the real world sport in mind but trying to give people something they could learn and overall encouraging good defensive position.

    So it is easier to trip a player from behind but it doesn't mean that you will definitely trip a player when poking from behind -- if you have a direct line to the puck and/or can get your stick in there to disrupt the stick and/or puck without causing a trip you will have success.

    And as an aside -- The Burns play is a good example of other mechanics that are modelled in the game as well. A defender can be back in position in a pass lane but if their skill isn't high enough relative to the reaction time they have and where the puck passes them, they won't necessarily intercept the puck and a goalie can slide over to cover the net but if they aren't set to see the puck, they may not be able to make a reactionary save on the puck with precision so if they don't get hit with the puck incidentally, they may not make the save even though they did get over. Both of those things are modelled in the game mechanics.
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