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NHL 19 - Everything was tripping

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  • Agree with @Z0mbieBabyJesus . Sure, there are some times where there are questionable poke checks that don't really connect but are called. But every other time, they're 100% on me.

    Poke checking is NOT the swiss-army knife tool it used to be in the past. The faster people comprehend that, the better things will be.
  • I've had the occasional trips that have broken probably half of the rules listed. I'll check this weekend if I have any recorded.

    That being said it's not all that often and I'm still happy with where pokes are right now.
  • VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    Agree with @Z0mbieBabyJesus . Sure, there are some times where there are questionable poke checks that don't really connect but are called. But every other time, they're 100% on me.

    Poke checking is NOT the swiss-army knife tool it used to be in the past. The faster people comprehend that, the better things will be.

    I think it was smart of them to loosen the tripping rules from the beta, but since then, I've been fine with where the poke-checking rules have been. What's not fine is the inconsistency with which tripping is called - which fits with the inconsistency of puck pickups and the puck physics. If the game wants to give me 2 minutes for grazing the outside of a skate with my stick, OK. But it has to enforce the rules the same way - 100% of the time. And it absolutely doesn't do that.
  • Bmh245 wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    Agree with @Z0mbieBabyJesus . Sure, there are some times where there are questionable poke checks that don't really connect but are called. But every other time, they're 100% on me.

    Poke checking is NOT the swiss-army knife tool it used to be in the past. The faster people comprehend that, the better things will be.

    I think it was smart of them to loosen the tripping rules from the beta, but since then, I've been fine with where the poke-checking rules have been. What's not fine is the inconsistency with which tripping is called - which fits with the inconsistency of puck pickups and the puck physics. If the game wants to give me 2 minutes for grazing the outside of a skate with my stick, OK. But it has to enforce the rules the same way - 100% of the time. And it absolutely doesn't do that.

    Oh, absolutely. Just yesterday I was poked several times from behind by an opponent and they didn't get a call. Then I try to poke the puck while in good position, but I get a tripping call because I grazed the outside of his leg... I mean c'mon! I get it, I passed through the player's "geo", but so did he and from behind, through both my legs... and he gets no call? Why??

    It's the EA "sometimes", I guess...
  • It's the randomness, and stick checking can be lumped in here too. There's no learning to use them effectively because there is really no consistency at all. You'll poke in one direction and it will poke wherever it feels like. You'll have the best positioning anyone's ever had in hockey and instead of lifting the stick, you'll swing your stick in a different direction and hook the guy. This is across the board on all builds.

    And then on the other side there's stuff like this..

    https://xboxdvr.com/gamer/haltingcone3480/video/69769772

    Reaches through the legs and stick lifts, not on your life in real hockey. This happens all game every game, you're in good position and get shafted, you're in bad position and get rewarded. It's nonsense.
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    edited February 2019
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    Bmh245 wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    Agree with @Z0mbieBabyJesus . Sure, there are some times where there are questionable poke checks that don't really connect but are called. But every other time, they're 100% on me.

    Poke checking is NOT the swiss-army knife tool it used to be in the past. The faster people comprehend that, the better things will be.

    I think it was smart of them to loosen the tripping rules from the beta, but since then, I've been fine with where the poke-checking rules have been. What's not fine is the inconsistency with which tripping is called - which fits with the inconsistency of puck pickups and the puck physics. If the game wants to give me 2 minutes for grazing the outside of a skate with my stick, OK. But it has to enforce the rules the same way - 100% of the time. And it absolutely doesn't do that.

    Oh, absolutely. Just yesterday I was poked several times from behind by an opponent and they didn't get a call. Then I try to poke the puck while in good position, but I get a tripping call because I grazed the outside of his leg... I mean c'mon! I get it, I passed through the player's "geo", but so did he and from behind, through both my legs... and he gets no call? Why??

    It's the EA "sometimes", I guess...

    Can you link the video to that? The ones where you are getting poked from behind with no trip.
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    Oh, absolutely. Just yesterday I was poked several times from behind by an opponent and they didn't get a call. Then I try to poke the puck while in good position, but I get a tripping call because I grazed the outside of his leg... I mean c'mon! I get it, I passed through the player's "geo", but so did he and from behind, through both my legs... and he gets no call? Why??

    It's the EA "sometimes", I guess...

    Can you link the video to that? The ones where you are getting poked from behind with no trip.

    I'm not Venom, but at the end of this clip, Horton poke-checks Gartner from behind with no trip:



  • VeNOM2099
    3178 posts Member
    edited February 2019
    NHLDev wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    Bmh245 wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    Agree with @Z0mbieBabyJesus . Sure, there are some times where there are questionable poke checks that don't really connect but are called. But every other time, they're 100% on me.

    Poke checking is NOT the swiss-army knife tool it used to be in the past. The faster people comprehend that, the better things will be.

    I think it was smart of them to loosen the tripping rules from the beta, but since then, I've been fine with where the poke-checking rules have been. What's not fine is the inconsistency with which tripping is called - which fits with the inconsistency of puck pickups and the puck physics. If the game wants to give me 2 minutes for grazing the outside of a skate with my stick, OK. But it has to enforce the rules the same way - 100% of the time. And it absolutely doesn't do that.

    Oh, absolutely. Just yesterday I was poked several times from behind by an opponent and they didn't get a call. Then I try to poke the puck while in good position, but I get a tripping call because I grazed the outside of his leg... I mean c'mon! I get it, I passed through the player's "geo", but so did he and from behind, through both my legs... and he gets no call? Why??

    It's the EA "sometimes", I guess...

    Can you link the video to that? The ones where you are getting poked from behind with no trip.

    Sorry. I wasn't streaming (it was a couple of practice games for another club). I just happened to play D-man for them and I didn't think to get a clip at the time, otherwise I would've for sure linked it in my previous post.

    I did take a clip of a "trip" I thought was sketchy, but when I checked it out after it turns out the stick did graze the outside of the opponent's leg. It wasn't anything egregious, I mean it just touched his leg from the outside and missed the puck. But it was a bad poke from a bad angle, so 100% my fault.

    What I want to try and get is a clip of the DSS being held and the player skates through my stick which causes a penalty. That is, I think, more of a problem for me than poking and getting a call. Even if the poke barely makes contact (or not).
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    I made a video and posted it on YouTube because I wanted others here to see it, was just playing a Hut game and daily challenge against Vancouver, but I poke checked the forward from the side but my stick never touches his skate yet I get a tripping call because I tried a poke check from the side and not from the front instead. So this game is programmed to give you a penalty even if you don't actually touch his skate with your stick, just the fact you tried to do it from that position so it determines it's a penalty... What?

    Oh and ignore the image it shows lol that was a mad upset spam poke check after they made the penalty call on the first one.
    Thanks for posting this. We will look into it.

    There aren’t pre-programmed angles but it is possible the collision volumes on the skate or stick are extended beyond their geometry from what you visually see or something.

    The odd piece though is that we tuned them earlier this year to be smaller than the base size by shrinking them inwards when it comes to tripping collision detection to require players to get a bigger piece of the player to cause a trip.

    In this case, I would have also expected that angle, if it was only blade on skate contact to not trip the player as well as there is a condition for that where we tuned it back at that same time to fan it out wider so that again it would take more to trip the player.

    We have also seen issues in rare cases with delayed trips. Was there a chance there was another contact prior to this one? Cases we have seen in th the past have been related to delaying due to another action though (I.e. passing) so that one is doubtful.


    Thanks.

    Appreciate the response and looking into it and no it wasn't a delay trip didn't try tripping him in the neutral zone at all just when he came in and skated passed the slot where players normally shoot, not expecting him to continue skating past the slot and straight to the boards. I have seen delayed penalties from hitting someone but it's normally a 2-4 second delay.

    It was just I see the AI gets away with doing poke checks in there animation all the time but aren't called for a penalty as much as the user is when they do a poke check. I've seen when the AI pokes the puck of me from behind, you literally can watch his stick go through your legs and even through your skate at the same time will poking it and then the puck magically pulls back to him from behind, I don't get that logic, the pull back and no penalty called on them for doing a poke check like that when you clearly watch the replay and their stick goes through your legs and even your skate.

    I know this topic is about tripping but I came across another incident where the computer takes an interference penalty when there is no reason to be taking a penalty. I was playing a Hut Challenge against Utica Comets, face off in my zone they win the draw to the D I select my winger to attack their D and hit him off the puck so the puck is now loose, now my RD Alex Pietrangelo skates hard at their winger yet the puck isn't even at him and the game calls him for an interference penalty.... You can even hear the announcer say "you got to be in control you can't just run around and hit everyone when they don't have the puck" so the game thought he was supposed to hit him and called a penalty yet the replay shows him not even hitting him but grabbing him only.... This is some weird stuff I tell you.

    First video is the whole play so you can see what happens, second video is just a edit close up of Pietrangelo and drawing this phantom penalty.


  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    NHLDev wrote: »
    I made a video and posted it on YouTube because I wanted others here to see it, was just playing a Hut game and daily challenge against Vancouver, but I poke checked the forward from the side but my stick never touches his skate yet I get a tripping call because I tried a poke check from the side and not from the front instead. So this game is programmed to give you a penalty even if you don't actually touch his skate with your stick, just the fact you tried to do it from that position so it determines it's a penalty... What?

    Oh and ignore the image it shows lol that was a mad upset spam poke check after they made the penalty call on the first one.
    Thanks for posting this. We will look into it.

    There aren’t pre-programmed angles but it is possible the collision volumes on the skate or stick are extended beyond their geometry from what you visually see or something.

    The odd piece though is that we tuned them earlier this year to be smaller than the base size by shrinking them inwards when it comes to tripping collision detection to require players to get a bigger piece of the player to cause a trip.

    In this case, I would have also expected that angle, if it was only blade on skate contact to not trip the player as well as there is a condition for that where we tuned it back at that same time to fan it out wider so that again it would take more to trip the player.

    We have also seen issues in rare cases with delayed trips. Was there a chance there was another contact prior to this one? Cases we have seen in th the past have been related to delaying due to another action though (I.e. passing) so that one is doubtful.


    Thanks.

    Appreciate the response and looking into it and no it wasn't a delay trip didn't try tripping him in the neutral zone at all just when he came in and skated passed the slot where players normally shoot, not expecting him to continue skating past the slot and straight to the boards. I have seen delayed penalties from hitting someone but it's normally a 2-4 second delay.

    It was just I see the AI gets away with doing poke checks in there animation all the time but aren't called for a penalty as much as the user is when they do a poke check. I've seen when the AI pokes the puck of me from behind, you literally can watch his stick go through your legs and even through your skate at the same time will poking it and then the puck magically pulls back to him from behind, I don't get that logic, the pull back and no penalty called on them for doing a poke check like that when you clearly watch the replay and their stick goes through your legs and even your skate.

    I know this topic is about tripping but I came across another incident where the computer takes an interference penalty when there is no reason to be taking a penalty. I was playing a Hut Challenge against Utica Comets, face off in my zone they win the draw to the D I select my winger to attack their D and hit him off the puck so the puck is now loose, now my RD Alex Pietrangelo skates hard at their winger yet the puck isn't even at him and the game calls him for an interference penalty.... You can even hear the announcer say "you got to be in control you can't just run around and hit everyone when they don't have the puck" so the game thought he was supposed to hit him and called a penalty yet the replay shows him not even hitting him but grabbing him only.... This is some weird stuff I tell you.

    First video is the whole play so you can see what happens, second video is just a edit close up of Pietrangelo and drawing this phantom penalty.

    Thanks. It seems he tries to go into a net battle and the timing of it must be such that the puck changed possession and the call was rather harsh for the amount he was held up.

    The commentary would just be a context for interference and the announcer on the day of recording probably only thought of the context of actually hitting someone during interference rather than also a chance the player could have been held up and the commentary probably doesn't divide the distinction and just fires a sample about interference to cover all types. Either way, both things are pieces to look at and improve so thanks for posting.
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    edited February 2019
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    Bmh245 wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    Agree with @Z0mbieBabyJesus . Sure, there are some times where there are questionable poke checks that don't really connect but are called. But every other time, they're 100% on me.

    Poke checking is NOT the swiss-army knife tool it used to be in the past. The faster people comprehend that, the better things will be.

    I think it was smart of them to loosen the tripping rules from the beta, but since then, I've been fine with where the poke-checking rules have been. What's not fine is the inconsistency with which tripping is called - which fits with the inconsistency of puck pickups and the puck physics. If the game wants to give me 2 minutes for grazing the outside of a skate with my stick, OK. But it has to enforce the rules the same way - 100% of the time. And it absolutely doesn't do that.

    Oh, absolutely. Just yesterday I was poked several times from behind by an opponent and they didn't get a call. Then I try to poke the puck while in good position, but I get a tripping call because I grazed the outside of his leg... I mean c'mon! I get it, I passed through the player's "geo", but so did he and from behind, through both my legs... and he gets no call? Why??

    It's the EA "sometimes", I guess...

    Can you link the video to that? The ones where you are getting poked from behind with no trip.

    Sorry. I wasn't streaming (it was a couple of practice games for another club). I just happened to play D-man for them and I didn't think to get a clip at the time, otherwise I would've for sure linked it in my previous post.

    I did take a clip of a "trip" I thought was sketchy, but when I checked it out after it turns out the stick did graze the outside of the opponent's leg. It wasn't anything egregious, I mean it just touched his leg from the outside and missed the puck. But it was a bad poke from a bad angle, so 100% my fault.

    What I want to try and get is a clip of the DSS being held and the player skates through my stick which causes a penalty. That is, I think, more of a problem for me than poking and getting a call. Even if the poke barely makes contact (or not).

    All good.

    For the other one, keep in mind, we don't call a penalty on DSS when blending out, so it is up to you to retract it. Even if there is contact during that time, we won't call the penalty. So if you have it out, it is as if you are holding it firm to impede, plus you are getting the advantage of stick on stick contact if you do it so if we just say a player would push through it and it wouldn't be a penalty, it could be overpowered as a mechanic. The balance comes from not calling a penalty during the blend out and starting to blend out the frame you release so you can quickly react to not getting stick or puck contact and can lessen your 'strength' to impede that player.

    The other piece that we did with DSS since it is less forceful of an action than a poke unless you are swinging it is you can have the stick go outside in on one leg and not get a trip but if you swipe through both ( showing less control) and in the case you are mentioning, the player skates through with both legs, the player will trip. This gives you more time to retract it and allows you with control to try and reach in without harsh penalties since the player could as you were referring to, push through the stick. If your stick does go through the leg or make geo contact, it won't allow it to make stick on stick or stick on puck contact to simulate that it couldn't have got there and would have been 'pushed away' or 'blocked' by that leg.

    I get where you are coming from but that is the logic in there right now.
    Post edited by NHLDev on
  • Arj01d
    1 posts New member
    I agree that the poke-check engine is poorly designed in NHL19. Let me explain why I believe this. EA can pick between two things, or a mixture of the two, when designing their gameplay engines: the first thing is being realistic, and the second is being fun/enjoyable.

    1) Realistic
    Personally, I have played hockey for 12 years, and have probably played close to 500 games. I can not recall many times where I have gone for a poke-check, missed, and then tripped my opponent. I have indeed missed poke-checks, and even hit my opponent's skate, but the stick bounced off their skate, and the player did not trip. The only way they would trip is if I caught their skate blade, which would require me to angle my stick almost flat (which nobody does). In addition to this, in the NHL, it is very rare to see a missed poke-check result in a tripping penalty. Typically, tripping penalties come from one of three situations: a player is fighting for the puck in the corner and accidentally gets their stick under the skate of the opponent while digging for the puck, a player puts their stick in between the two legs of an opponent, or the opponent inadvertently steps on the stick of a player. This is in stark contrast to NHL19, in which any poke-check that is missed (which happens quite often) results almost always as a tripping penalty. As a side-note, I find that the poke-checks do not go straight, and it is hard to control the direction of the poke-check. Maybe if the direction of the poke-check was more controllable, it would solve the problem. In NHL14 the poke-checks went in the direction that the player's body was positioned, thus making it much easier to control where the poke was going. Now, I feel that EA has introduced an engine which doesn't poke in the direction where the player is positioned to, but instead in the direction of the opponent that the engine thinks you are trying to defend. This renders the control of the poke-check very hard, and makes me think that when you press the poke-check button, your stick is going towards the body (not even the puck) of the opponent, rather than in the direction of your player's body, which would cause a trip more likely. This is why I feel that the NHL19 poke-check engine is unrealistic.

    2) Fun/Enjoyable
    I can't stand the poke-check engine, and find it super infuriating. I only play game modes such as Threes, and World of Chel, because the poke-check engine is not broken in those game modes in my opinion. I like the Threes poke-check engine, where the players will draw a tripping penalty when you try a horrendous poke-check. This makes me consciously decide when I poke-check or not. I still poke-check, but I avoid spamming so that I don't end up in a bad position and actually catch the blade of an opponent, and trip him. Even though some people argue that people spam/abuse the poke-check button, I personally have no issue with it. I jumped from NHL14 to NHL19 this year, and can say that NHL 14's poke-check engine was much more enjoyable. There were cases where the poke-check engine was a bit too sensitive, but it was not even close to the sensitivity in NHL19. I do not see any aspect in which the new poke-check engine is enjoyable. Even for the people who find it frustrating to play offence when people are spamming the poke-check, I personally find this as another challenge to overcome. I'd rather struggle to score because of poke-check spammers, than struggle to stay out of the penalty box, because poke-checks always result in a penalty. To add on to that point, the games in NHL 19 are much more high scoring than NHL 14, simply because you can not stop an opposing player in NHL 19 when they are rushing up the ice. You can try to maintain better positioning, but that means that you have to push the player to the outside, and can not cover the inside (slot) which results as a cross-crease OP goal. Also, I found that in NHL14, if you were already killing a penalty, the referees would be less likely to call another penalty, unless it was blatant or completely impacted the play. I like this, because it reflects NHL referees in real life. If it's already a 5-on-4, the referee is more reluctant to call a penalty to make it a 5-on-3. Doesn't mean that it never happens, but not often. NHL19 has nothing like this, and will call all penalties the same, regardless of the situation (which some could argue as good, but is something that I personally dislike). Once again, the poke-check engine does not serve a purpose, in the sense that it is not fun/enjoyable.

    In conclusion, EA has created a poke-check engine that is neither realistic, nor fun/enjoyable (in my opinion). I am a Top 100 player in Threes, and have started playing World of Chel, because those game modes are the most fun for me. I mainly do not play any other mode because of the poke-check system, which is a shame because 5v5 NHL gameplay is fun strategically. Some may say that I need to adapt to the new engine, but I believe I shouldn't adapt to an engine which I can not find any reason why EA implemented. Every game has aspects in which people spam, but I believe that having poke-check spammers is a whole lot better than 20 penalties a game. Let me know what you think about this :)

    P.S. The soundtrack from this game was a big improvement, and was something I felt that FIFA dominated beforehand. However, if you could implement a system like in NBA2K where you can choose which songs you want played from the soundtrack, or like NHL14 where you can upload your own songs, it would be much better. However, the soundtrack was very good this year, and was more of an alternative genre, compared to historically Rock/Heavy Metal genres in previous versions of NHL. If you guys could include more Hip-Hop and Rap, that would be pretty cool too, but I get that most of those songs are explicit.
  • Agree 100% Arj01d, tripping/poke checking is broken and it’s why I don’t play anymore and won’t buy the copy if this stays the way it is. NHL 19 is a Ticky tack trip fest and not at all enjoyable
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