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How can a team of primarily base 83's and 84's out-skate Diamonds with 92-97 skating/acceleration?

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Funamescia
37 posts Member
edited February 2019
Before I go further, there is no hostility intended in this post. From past experiences, I know the management can get very sensitive about conversations they construe as "negative." Please believe me when I say I'm not making fun of your product or being difficult, I'm just trying to understand the logic behind the way some of these games play out... which, at times, is downright baffling.

With that said, I just got done playing a game of HUT Online Seasons against a guy that, with the exception of the promotional Forsburg, had a squad of primarily base 83's and 84's. As for myself, I have a decent mid-to-upper 80's caliber team. I've been bargain hunting for Diamond series cards (typically in the 85-87 overall range) with strong skating stats as a means to keep pace against the guys who have nothing but 92, 93 and 95 overalls. I figured these Diamonds were a good alternative since I can't even come close to buying any of those high-level 90+ overall cards you see at the auction house selling for hundreds of thousands of coins (and let's be honest here, even with mindlessly grinding for coins, the best cards in the game are still virtually untouchable unless you have 20 hours a day to play).

In any event, my question is this: is it unreasonable for me to expect Diamond cards, with 92-97 skating, would scorch base 83 and 84 overall players with comparable skating stats in, say, the low to mid-80's?

I mean, at the very least, shouldn't there be a noticeable visual difference on-screen between players with 90+ skating stats vs. mid-80's?

That's certainly the case whenever I find myself matched up against someone with a stacked to the gils team of 90+ overalls. They (especially, their AI controlled players) literally fly around all over the place, lightning quick on both sides of the puck; getting back on defense with breakneck speed, and blowing right by me like I'm standing still whilst breaking into my zone, even if I'm in a perfect position to cut them off. It's actually quite comical. But that's another story for another time.

Right now, I'm simply trying to figure out what just happened. It doesn't make any sense. I can understand this sort of thing happening in a peer-to-peer environment, in a mode like Online Versus, but HUT is now played on dedicated servers, so there shouldn't be a "connection advantage," right? I'm not exaggerating when I say this guy was able to not only keep pace with my skaters but was actually outhustling them, and more often than not, was moving around at what seemed like twice as fast.

It was pretty bizarre and I honestly couldn't believe what I was seeing. Can anyone shed some light into what might have just took place?

*For what it's worth, the Network Performance indicator read 20ms throughout the game with green bars, and I play on Fios gigabit internet, hard-wired directly to the router.
Post edited by Funamescia on

Replies

  • Nothing ever makes sense :D

    But, as they like to say.

    EA Sports it's in the game B)
  • Your opponent had a better connection than you. Nothing else.
  • I thought the whole entire point of moving HUT to dedicated servers was to eliminate connection advantages? I literally read in another thread where an EA Dev stated: "With dedicated servers, your opponent’s connection quality has no effect on your gameplay experience. The only thing that matters is the quality of your connection to the server, which will make your gameplay experience more consistent."


    If what @WainGretSki is saying is true, my opponent’s connection quality had a drastic and dramatic effect on my gameplay experience.
  • Funamescia wrote: »
    I thought the whole entire point of moving HUT to dedicated servers was to eliminate connection advantages? I literally read in another thread where an EA Dev stated: "With dedicated servers, your opponent’s connection quality has no effect on your gameplay experience. The only thing that matters is the quality of your connection to the server, which will make your gameplay experience more consistent."


    If what @WainGretSki is saying is true, my opponent’s connection quality had a drastic and dramatic effect on my gameplay experience.

    Or your connection to the server not your opponents is what was effecting you.
  • Socair
    2815 posts Game Changer
    It’s usually a case of one person (or team in EASHL) having a cleaner connection to the server and thus reacting a lot quicker. For example, they live closer to the server than their opponent and have great ISP/home network infrastructure.

    Servers add more stability, yes, because you are always going to get a stable ping from game to game and not a mystery ping. They also prevent IP tampering and don’t allow for users to manipulate the connection.
  • Well, I can't pick up my house and move it. And as far as my internet connection is concerned, I can't buy anything faster in my area than what I'm already subscribed to. I'm also hardwired directly to the router. I've done all I could from my end to ensure the best experience possible.

    How come there are no user-options to select a HUT server of our own choice, sort of in the same way you can pick a specific shard/server in an MMO? I certainly wouldn't mind sitting in the matchmaking screen a tad longer if it meant consistently stable online gameplay.
  • Funamescia wrote: »
    I thought the whole entire point of moving HUT to dedicated servers was to eliminate connection advantages? I literally read in another thread where an EA Dev stated: "With dedicated servers, your opponent’s connection quality has no effect on your gameplay experience. The only thing that matters is the quality of your connection to the server, which will make your gameplay experience more consistent."


    If what @WainGretSki is saying is true, my opponent’s connection quality had a drastic and dramatic effect on my gameplay experience.

    Or your connection to the server not your opponents is what was effecting you.

    I understand what you're trying to say, however, since my opponent clearly had a connection advantage, I suffered direct and indirect negative effects in terms of gameplay, both equally ruining my overall experience.

    The whole point of coming over to HUT from Online Versus was to eliminate the technical shortcomings of the latter mode. Instead, I'm slowly finding out the promise of dedicated servers isn't exactly all it's cracked up to be.
  • WainGretSki
    3660 posts Member
    edited February 2019
    Funamescia wrote: »
    I thought the whole entire point of moving HUT to dedicated servers was to eliminate connection advantages? I literally read in another thread where an EA Dev stated: "With dedicated servers, your opponent’s connection quality has no effect on your gameplay experience. The only thing that matters is the quality of your connection to the server, which will make your gameplay experience more consistent."


    If what @WainGretSki is saying is true, my opponent’s connection quality had a drastic and dramatic effect on my gameplay experience.

    Aye, it does have a dramatic impact on your game.

    Your players feel a little sluggish and heavier. They make weird pivots at times. Passes are off, shot aim is less than desirable, body checks are much less effective, your goalie can be a noob, your AI players look clueless, other goalie makes monumental saves, seems like your opponent is on every rebound and gets most of the bounces, etc.

    These are all signs your opponent has a better connection to the servers than you do. I see it now and again in EASHL. The weird pivots and passes not going where I aim are dead giveaways for me as I know my connection and how my player moves around under normal circumstances.
  • j0rtsu67
    644 posts Member
    edited February 2019
    Funamescia wrote: »
    I thought the whole entire point of moving HUT to dedicated servers was to eliminate connection advantages? I literally read in another thread where an EA Dev stated: "With dedicated servers, your opponent’s connection quality has no effect on your gameplay experience. The only thing that matters is the quality of your connection to the server, which will make your gameplay experience more consistent."


    If what @WainGretSki is saying is true, my opponent’s connection quality had a drastic and dramatic effect on my gameplay experience.

    Aye, it does have a dramatic impact on your game.

    Your players feel a little sluggish and heavier. They make weird pivots at times. Passes are off, shot aim is less than desirable, body checks are much less effective, your goalie can be a noob, your AI players look clueless, other goalie makes monumental saves, seems like your opponent is on every rebound and gets most of the bounces, etc.

    These are all signs your opponent has a better connection to the servers than you do. I see it now and again in EASHL. The weird pivots and passes not going where I aim are dead giveaways for me as I know my connection and how my player moves around under normal circumstances.
    Exactly.

    And this is often called as... "Ice Tilt".
  • Funamescia
    37 posts Member
    edited March 2019
    Unfortunately, the situation hasn't improved. In fact, it happens far more frequently than what would seem reasonable.

    Also, since being told the effectiveness of players with 95+ skating ratings are essentially at the mercy of whoever has the "cleaner connection advantage," I don't really see much of a point to continue playing HUT. It's really not fun when you're trying to play competitively and your opponent's whole team (not just the skater they're controlling at a particular moment) has a noticeable speed and movement advantage... despite the fact that they're playing with a bunch of lesser-quality players (in both overall ratings and individual stats).


    And with the book on HUT finally closed, as a last resort, I even went back to Online Versus to see if, by some small miracle, there were any technical improvements on that front.

    There weren't. It's the same old issues that have plagued this series for years.

    Connection disadvantage? Get ready for the following:
    • Lose every faceoff
    • Skating feels like you're in mud instead of on ice
    • 3 seconds to pivot
    • Constantly get caught from behind on the rare breakaway (hysterically enough, though, it's one-sided - if my opponents are on a break, they have a clear line to the net, and neither myself (spamming hustle) or, if I switch off to the closest AI, can catch up)
    • Offensive AI players literally standing still in front of the net on power plays, refusing to get open (despite the strategies/settings selected)
    • Defensive AI playing like they have absolutely no interest in being on the ice.

    All-in-all, the online component of this game's HUT and Online Versus modes are just one gigantic, frustrating mess. As the only game in town, I really hope the devs can get it right for NHL '20.
  • Funamescia wrote: »
    Unfortunately, the situation hasn't improved. In fact, it happens far more frequently than what would seem reasonable.

    Also, since being told the effectiveness of players with 95+ skating ratings are essentially at the mercy of whoever has the "cleaner connection advantage," I don't really see much of a point to continue playing HUT. It's really not fun when you're trying to play competitively and your opponent's whole team (not just the skater they're controlling at a particular moment) has a noticeable speed and movement advantage... despite the fact that they're playing with a bunch of lesser-quality players (in both overall ratings and individual stats).


    And with the book on HUT finally closed, as a last resort, I even went back to Online Versus to see if, by some small miracle, there were any technical improvements on that front.

    There weren't. It's the same old issues that have plagued this series for years.

    Connection disadvantage? Get ready for the following:
    • Lose every faceoff
    • Skating feels like you're in mud instead of on ice
    • 3 seconds to pivot
    • Constantly get caught from behind on the rare breakaway (hysterically enough, though, it's one-sided - if my opponents are on a break, they have a clear line to the net, and neither myself (spamming hustle) or, if I switch off to the closest AI, can catch up)
    • Offensive AI players literally standing still in front of the net on power plays, refusing to get open (despite the strategies/settings selected)
    • Defensive AI playing like they have absolutely no interest in being on the ice.

    All-in-all, the online component of this game's HUT and Online Versus modes are just one gigantic, frustrating mess. As the only game in town, I really hope the devs can get it right for NHL '20.

    I would love to watch a game of you playing, both hut and versus.
  • Funamescia
    37 posts Member
    edited March 2019
    The problem with that is the general feeling of sluggishness and unresponsive gameplay are not completely conveyed in video format. A much better solution would be for you to swing by and play a few games on my console for yourself. Then you would know exactly what I'm talking about. Seriously, if you lived close enough, I'd extend the invite. The EA crew is invited to tag along as well. :)

    For what it's worth, I've somehow managed a 48-26-6 record in OV (I do have video of being blatantly "lag-switched" - another joy you can experience in OV which I forgot to mention in my bullet list above), and I'm Div 3 in HUT, despite playing with almost non-stop connection disadvantages and, literally, one 90 overall rated card (free February Forsberg) in my lineup.


    Just to be crystal clear, I don't go around categorizing myself as "an elite level" player. That said, I feel like I can, at the very least, hold my own against just about anyone out there (in the non-professional player pool) if the odds aren't stacked against me (ie: constantly playing through technical disadvantages online).

    Again, for clarity, I'm not exaggerating or making things up when I describe what my HUT and OV experiences have been like. The frustration is palpable, and very real, even in the games where I do manage to squeak out a win.

    At the end of the day, I just want consistency and a level playing field. That's all. I have absolutely no problem taking a loss when the person I'm playing against is better than me. I really don't. In fact, I usually tip my hat to 'em post-game. But losing as a result of being lag-switched or some other longstanding (or new) technical disadvantage? That's another story entirely, and a complete dealbreaker for me.
  • flyextacy
    376 posts Member
    edited March 2019
    So you have connection issues in server based hut and also connection issues on p2p format. Have you trouble shooted your network issues and made sure its 100% not on your end. It's very strange you would be experiencing connection issues on both formats.

    I had lag on p2p but on servers I have no delay. I'm in new york connecting to the east server.
  • Two words Ice Tilt......EA will never admit it but it's true
  • VeNOM2099
    3178 posts Member
    MattyPesky wrote: »
    Two words Ice Tilt......EA will never admit it but it's true

    It's not Ice Tilt. It's not DDA. It's just the game being the game. It is what it is. It's adjusted to play super-sonic speed hockey on 4 minute periods.

    In that respect it follows the logic of pinball (which is an Arcade game) more than hockey. If you adjust your thinking when you play to that instead of what you think would be logical, you'll see that it's not something "coded" in the game that makes you lose. It's just that you're not following the rules it wants you to follow.
  • VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    MattyPesky wrote: »
    Two words Ice Tilt......EA will never admit it but it's true

    It's not Ice Tilt. It's not DDA. It's just the game being the game. It is what it is. It's adjusted to play super-sonic speed hockey on 4 minute periods.
    It's just that you're not following the rules it wants you to follow.
    What are we, in Westworld?
  • Funamescia
    37 posts Member
    edited March 2019
    flyextacy wrote: »
    So you have connection issues in server based hut and also connection issues on p2p format. Have you trouble shooted your network issues and made sure its 100% not on your end. It's very strange you would be experiencing connection issues on both formats.

    I had lag on p2p but on servers I have no delay. I'm in new york connecting to the east server.

    You mentioned that you're connecting to the "east server." How do you know which server you're connecting to? Is there a screen or additional information that tells you? How do you access that information?


    To answer your question, yes, the very reason I created this thread was because of what I was experiencing in server-based HUT. I was getting lapped by base 84 and 85s with inferior skating ratings while I was using Diamond series cards with players' skating stats ranging anywhere from 93 to 98 (acceleration, speed, etc...)

    I was in total disbelief. I was further shocked to learn that behavior should be expected if my opponent(s) have a "cleaner connection" to the server than I have. If that's the case, what in the world is the point of spending time and money (or both) chasing the game's high-level cards? Imagine spending a few hundred bucks on a loaded team of 95-99 overalls and then being forced to watch in horror while you're getting dusted by base 85s simply because your opponent's game "is more in sync" with the server? That should NEVER happen.


    And, yes, I've checked and re-checked all of my network equipment over the years. The coax and fiber optic lines running from the outside in are less than a year old. I've swapped ONT boxes and modem/routers with Verizon, I make sure my XB1 is hardwired directly into the ethernet port on my router, I've tried Cat5 Cat 6 and Cat7 ethernet cables, I subscribe to the highest-tier internet package available in my areas, which is Verizon Fios, around 980 Mbps up and down and I play when there is no other internet activity going on in my house. The only thing I haven't done yet is test a 3rd party modem/router. Maybe that's the key?

    I can say I've been having a miserable experience in the online modes since as far back as NHL '17. I remember one day, a good while back, after spending hours Googling a solution to make online gameplay better, I came across the term "Fat Man Lag," and it was like a revelation. I wish I could find that post, but the author summed up exactly what I was going through. A lot of that holds true today, and that post was a good 2 years ago.

    I'll also say, while everyone is certainly entitled to their opinions, I am not a believer that EA Vancouver has deliberately coded anything malicious or disruptive into the game on purpose. I do think, without them admitting it publicly, this is the best hockey game they can produce at this point in time. It's our decision as paying customers to either grin and bear it or walk away until the gameplay and technical shortcomings truly improve. Like so many others, as a fan of video game hockey, I stick around because, well, there's no other real alternative. This is it. But I'm at the point now where I might sit out until an entirely new engine gets put in place and/or the online code/experience facilitates a consistently enjoyable game.
  • VeNOM2099
    3178 posts Member
    drod1126 wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    MattyPesky wrote: »
    Two words Ice Tilt......EA will never admit it but it's true

    It's not Ice Tilt. It's not DDA. It's just the game being the game. It is what it is. It's adjusted to play super-sonic speed hockey on 4 minute periods.
    It's just that you're not following the rules it wants you to follow.
    What are we, in Westworld?

    The best way I can explain it to you is with this - Morpheus: "This is a sparring program. Similar to the programmed reality of the Matrix. It has a set of basic rules. Rules like gravity. What you must learn is that these rules are no different from the rules of a computer system. Some of them can be bent, others can be broken. Understand? Then hit me, if you can."
  • Funamescia wrote: »
    flyextacy wrote: »
    So you have connection issues in server based hut and also connection issues on p2p format. Have you trouble shooted your network issues and made sure its 100% not on your end. It's very strange you would be experiencing connection issues on both formats.

    I had lag on p2p but on servers I have no delay. I'm in new york connecting to the east server.

    You mentioned that you're connecting to the "east server." How do you know which server you're connecting to? Is there a screen or additional information that tells you? How do you access that information?


    To answer your question, yes, the very reason I created this thread was because of what I was experiencing in server-based HUT. I was getting lapped by base 84 and 85s with inferior skating ratings while I was using Diamond series cards with players' skating stats ranging anywhere from 93 to 98 (acceleration, speed, etc...)

    I was in total disbelief. I was further shocked to learn that behavior should be expected if my opponent(s) have a "cleaner connection" to the server than I have. If that's the case, what in the world is the point of spending time and money (or both) chasing the game's high-level cards? Imagine spending a few hundred bucks on a loaded team of 95-99 overalls and then being forced to watch in horror while you're getting dusted by base 85s simply because your opponent's game "is more in sync" with the server? That should NEVER happen.


    And, yes, I've checked and re-checked all of my network equipment over the years. The coax and fiber optic lines running from the outside in are less than a year old. I've swapped ONT boxes and modem/routers with Verizon, I make sure my XB1 is hardwired directly into the ethernet port on my router, I've tried Cat5 Cat 6 and Cat7 ethernet cables, I subscribe to the highest-tier internet package available in my areas, which is Verizon Fios, around 980 Mbps up and down and I play when there is no other internet activity going on in my house. The only thing I haven't done yet is test a 3rd party modem/router. Maybe that's the key?

    I can say I've been having a miserable experience in the online modes since as far back as NHL '17. I remember one day, a good while back, after spending hours Googling a solution to make online gameplay better, I came across the term "Fat Man Lag," and it was like a revelation. I wish I could find that post, but the author summed up exactly what I was going through. A lot of that holds true today, and that post was a good 2 years ago.

    I'll also say, while everyone is certainly entitled to their opinions, I am not a believer that EA Vancouver has deliberately coded anything malicious or disruptive into the game on purpose. I do think, without them admitting it publicly, this is the best hockey game they can produce at this point in time. It's our decision as paying customers to either grin and bear it or walk away until the gameplay and technical shortcomings truly improve. Like so many others, as a fan of video game hockey, I stick around because, well, there's no other real alternative. This is it. But I'm at the point now where I might sit out until an entirely new engine gets put in place and/or the online code/experience facilitates a consistently enjoyable game.

    Can do a packet capture during a gaming session to see where I'm connecting too. Majority of time I connect to the server in Virginia.
  • These are from various games. There are literally dozens of times where I didn't bother screenshotting, but this is what I have on my Xbox right now:

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    js3hn0sdgz1i.png
    m4dlal7lc8uw.png
    cbo9t1gobmlb.png
    ti0zh739k6ec.png

    I have some video of horrific rubberbanding, too. As soon as I find a place to upload, I'll share it.
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