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NHL 20 Content Update October 25th


Check out our CHEL notes with our October Patch update here.

Dynamic difficulty is ruining versus play

Replies

  • j0rtsu67
    411 posts Member
    NHLDev wrote: »
    j0rtsu67 wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    .
    TheMajjam wrote: »
    TheMajjam wrote: »
    Curious, has any developer here explicitly said that DDA doesn't exist in this game? If so, can you quote them?

    Ben has stated there is no tilt or DDA. I have seen it myself. Tyler Horsfall has also stated as much on twitter or wherever he hangs out.

    Ya. Understood. I keep running into hearsay, but thus far no one has been been able to quote me that it's not explicitly implemented. Might missed it in this thread, but the only dev notes I see here is the dev answering specific instances of online play.

    There is no DDA in NHL
    Good to know.

    Are player attributes changed/modified somehow during the game? Human or AI?

    The way the attributes are used throughout the game is consistent. There are negative impacts on players such as how fatigue or error models in different mechanics impacts them but nothin that isn’t a consistent effect for all players throughout the game.
    Understood.

    In theory, is there a chance that players connection could affect how much those attributes are impacted?

    And are attributes only getting lowered or can they also be raised (other than returning from being lowered)?

    So can players attributes raise higher than they are by default?

    Sorry, my English can sound funny sometimes...

  • NHLDev wrote: »
    .
    TheMajjam wrote: »
    TheMajjam wrote: »
    Curious, has any developer here explicitly said that DDA doesn't exist in this game? If so, can you quote them?

    Ben has stated there is no tilt or DDA. I have seen it myself. Tyler Horsfall has also stated as much on twitter or wherever he hangs out.

    Ya. Understood. I keep running into hearsay, but thus far no one has been been able to quote me that it's not explicitly implemented. Might missed it in this thread, but the only dev notes I see here is the dev answering specific instances of online play.

    There is no DDA in NHL

    There is DDA in the NHL. Proof, Boston beat Tampa Bay last night lol.
  • NHLDev
    1363 posts NHL Developer
    j0rtsu67 wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    j0rtsu67 wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    .
    TheMajjam wrote: »
    TheMajjam wrote: »
    Curious, has any developer here explicitly said that DDA doesn't exist in this game? If so, can you quote them?

    Ben has stated there is no tilt or DDA. I have seen it myself. Tyler Horsfall has also stated as much on twitter or wherever he hangs out.

    Ya. Understood. I keep running into hearsay, but thus far no one has been been able to quote me that it's not explicitly implemented. Might missed it in this thread, but the only dev notes I see here is the dev answering specific instances of online play.

    There is no DDA in NHL
    Good to know.

    Are player attributes changed/modified somehow during the game? Human or AI?

    The way the attributes are used throughout the game is consistent. There are negative impacts on players such as how fatigue or error models in different mechanics impacts them but nothin that isn’t a consistent effect for all players throughout the game.
    Understood.

    In theory, is there a chance that players connection could affect how much those attributes are impacted?

    And are attributes only getting lowered or can they also be raised (other than returning from being lowered)?

    So can players attributes raise higher than they are by default?

    Sorry, my English can sound funny sometimes...
    The best a player can perform is to their base attributes and if all other factors in the game mechanic are perfect. Anything lower than that is adding error or lowering quality.

    Connection has no impact on a players attributes but connection can add delay or inconsistency in inputs that would be less ideal for a player to do exactly what they want to (impacting timing, precision, etc.)
  • Sinbin
    1328 posts Member
    Sinbin wrote: »
    Fatboyee wrote: »
    Sinbin wrote: »
    headup81 wrote: »
    Sinbin wrote: »
    headup81 wrote: »
    Sinbin I'm curious as to what is your record typically?

    I win more than I lose. Not heavily. I'm definitely not a top 500 player. I play for fun and don't have a win at all costs mentality so I don't exploit the game.

    As I suspected. So in your opinion does someone who is just over a 500 have a valid opinion on DDA? So maybe just maybe you’re not seeing DDA because it is there for players like you in the first place. I’m not trying to be rude but from this point forward your opinions on DDA are invalid to me.

    Everyone has a valid opinion on DDA. It's an opinion. Not a fact. If you think that only top players get there because the game hands them their wins and losses without skill being involved, that's your opinion. I'm accountable for my own play. I know why I win and lose. It's not because the computer scripts the outcome for me. It's my opinion that people who blame DDA just aren't as good as they think they are. They need to have something to push the blame on to instead of look at where they could improve. Part of getting good at this game is recognizing your faults and correcting them. If you think you're the best and can't improve, you're not. Why do you think professional players, musicians, artisans, etc, keep practicing? To get better. No matter how good they are. There is no DDA, no scripting, no ice tilt. I can watch how a game plays out and see why the outcome happened the way it did.

    Nobody from ea has come out and said DDA doesnt exist. Have you noticed?? Id think you would get tired of trying to argue its not there considering how long this thread has been going. I also think you are in the minority on this.

    There was a big post on reddit from their community manager saying it doesn't exist. Madden and FIFA also made statements it's not in their games.

    Can you show me a game where DDA happens? Can you get some video showing precisely when it kicks in and the computer is just like... well, buddy is gonna quit playing so we better script the win for him! Do you really think EA is going to cater to fragile egos like that? They have said many times now that there is no ice tilt. It's a tired, old argument. They don't want it in their game. Period. It ruins the competitive nature of the game and they're aware of that. You need to learn how to be accountable for your losses. That's all it is. There's no need to blame the game because you got out played or because a bad bounce caused you to lose. In the end you lost because your opponent scored more than you. That's it. The computer doesn't sympathize with the guy that's going to lose and rig the game in their favor. It's absurd people believe this exists in NHL when it's so plain to see it doesn't.

    It´s absurd that you think it does not exist. It´s also absurd that you are still here defending EA instead of playing the game that you seem to have no problem with. Once again, Read the DDA papers to understand WHY it would benefit EA to implement such logic in their games, It´s their own words. Their own words contradict your whole argumentation...

    Well, NHLDev confirmed it's not in the game. Hopefully that puts this to rest and people can focus on their own play instead of blaming the game.
  • xPDogg65x
    534 posts Member
    edited March 3
    Sinbin wrote: »
    Sinbin wrote: »
    Fatboyee wrote: »
    Sinbin wrote: »
    headup81 wrote: »
    Sinbin wrote: »
    headup81 wrote: »
    Sinbin I'm curious as to what is your record typically?

    I win more than I lose. Not heavily. I'm definitely not a top 500 player. I play for fun and don't have a win at all costs mentality so I don't exploit the game.

    As I suspected. So in your opinion does someone who is just over a 500 have a valid opinion on DDA? So maybe just maybe you’re not seeing DDA because it is there for players like you in the first place. I’m not trying to be rude but from this point forward your opinions on DDA are invalid to me.

    Everyone has a valid opinion on DDA. It's an opinion. Not a fact. If you think that only top players get there because the game hands them their wins and losses without skill being involved, that's your opinion. I'm accountable for my own play. I know why I win and lose. It's not because the computer scripts the outcome for me. It's my opinion that people who blame DDA just aren't as good as they think they are. They need to have something to push the blame on to instead of look at where they could improve. Part of getting good at this game is recognizing your faults and correcting them. If you think you're the best and can't improve, you're not. Why do you think professional players, musicians, artisans, etc, keep practicing? To get better. No matter how good they are. There is no DDA, no scripting, no ice tilt. I can watch how a game plays out and see why the outcome happened the way it did.

    Nobody from ea has come out and said DDA doesnt exist. Have you noticed?? Id think you would get tired of trying to argue its not there considering how long this thread has been going. I also think you are in the minority on this.

    There was a big post on reddit from their community manager saying it doesn't exist. Madden and FIFA also made statements it's not in their games.

    Can you show me a game where DDA happens? Can you get some video showing precisely when it kicks in and the computer is just like... well, buddy is gonna quit playing so we better script the win for him! Do you really think EA is going to cater to fragile egos like that? They have said many times now that there is no ice tilt. It's a tired, old argument. They don't want it in their game. Period. It ruins the competitive nature of the game and they're aware of that. You need to learn how to be accountable for your losses. That's all it is. There's no need to blame the game because you got out played or because a bad bounce caused you to lose. In the end you lost because your opponent scored more than you. That's it. The computer doesn't sympathize with the guy that's going to lose and rig the game in their favor. It's absurd people believe this exists in NHL when it's so plain to see it doesn't.

    It´s absurd that you think it does not exist. It´s also absurd that you are still here defending EA instead of playing the game that you seem to have no problem with. Once again, Read the DDA papers to understand WHY it would benefit EA to implement such logic in their games, It´s their own words. Their own words contradict your whole argumentation...

    Well, NHLDev confirmed it's not in the game. Hopefully that puts this to rest and people can focus on their own play instead of blaming the game.

    That would be nice, but NHLDev has confirmed this in the past. Hasn’t stop the conspiracy theories before so I highly doubt it will this time. Seems there are some egos out there that just can’t accept they are not the hockey gods they think they are.
  • Sinbin
    1328 posts Member

    That would be nice, but NHLDev has confirmed this in the past. Hasn’t stop the conspiracy theories before so I highly doubt it will this time. Seems there are some egos out there that just can’t accept they are not the hockey gods they think they are.

    Yep. Exactly. People just have little accountability these days.
  • Fatboyee
    83 posts Member
    Sinbin wrote: »
    Sinbin wrote: »
    Fatboyee wrote: »
    Sinbin wrote: »
    headup81 wrote: »
    Sinbin wrote: »
    headup81 wrote: »
    Sinbin I'm curious as to what is your record typically?

    I win more than I lose. Not heavily. I'm definitely not a top 500 player. I play for fun and don't have a win at all costs mentality so I don't exploit the game.

    As I suspected. So in your opinion does someone who is just over a 500 have a valid opinion on DDA? So maybe just maybe you’re not seeing DDA because it is there for players like you in the first place. I’m not trying to be rude but from this point forward your opinions on DDA are invalid to me.

    Everyone has a valid opinion on DDA. It's an opinion. Not a fact. If you think that only top players get there because the game hands them their wins and losses without skill being involved, that's your opinion. I'm accountable for my own play. I know why I win and lose. It's not because the computer scripts the outcome for me. It's my opinion that people who blame DDA just aren't as good as they think they are. They need to have something to push the blame on to instead of look at where they could improve. Part of getting good at this game is recognizing your faults and correcting them. If you think you're the best and can't improve, you're not. Why do you think professional players, musicians, artisans, etc, keep practicing? To get better. No matter how good they are. There is no DDA, no scripting, no ice tilt. I can watch how a game plays out and see why the outcome happened the way it did.

    Nobody from ea has come out and said DDA doesnt exist. Have you noticed?? Id think you would get tired of trying to argue its not there considering how long this thread has been going. I also think you are in the minority on this.

    There was a big post on reddit from their community manager saying it doesn't exist. Madden and FIFA also made statements it's not in their games.

    Can you show me a game where DDA happens? Can you get some video showing precisely when it kicks in and the computer is just like... well, buddy is gonna quit playing so we better script the win for him! Do you really think EA is going to cater to fragile egos like that? They have said many times now that there is no ice tilt. It's a tired, old argument. They don't want it in their game. Period. It ruins the competitive nature of the game and they're aware of that. You need to learn how to be accountable for your losses. That's all it is. There's no need to blame the game because you got out played or because a bad bounce caused you to lose. In the end you lost because your opponent scored more than you. That's it. The computer doesn't sympathize with the guy that's going to lose and rig the game in their favor. It's absurd people believe this exists in NHL when it's so plain to see it doesn't.

    It´s absurd that you think it does not exist. It´s also absurd that you are still here defending EA instead of playing the game that you seem to have no problem with. Once again, Read the DDA papers to understand WHY it would benefit EA to implement such logic in their games, It´s their own words. Their own words contradict your whole argumentation...

    Well, NHLDev confirmed it's not in the game. Hopefully that puts this to rest and people can focus on their own play instead of blaming the game.

    Confirmed its not in the game. Thats because its in the match making server!
  • Treatmentworke66
    597 posts Member
    edited May 30
    Found this pretty interesting , sorry I just took a screenshot ,I stink when it comes to posting links but the guys name is FUT Mentor who put out this video out on YouTube

    jsf0pxabyb3l.png

    Reddit thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/NHLHUT/comments/buhhoz/ea_game_scripting_and_momentum_is_real_ea_patent/
    Post edited by EA_Roger on
  • EA_Roger
    1470 posts EA Community Manager
    edited May 30
    I edited your post to include your attachment as an image as well as a link to the reddit post @Treatmentworke66 .

    If you do check this out, I encourage you to look up the patent or conversations around this update rather than listening to the click-bait video entitled: "EA LEAKED PATENT EXPLAINED! SCRIPTING & PACK LUCK EXPOSED!". Patents are public so it's pretty hard to not leak them & the pack luck part of that video is literally pulled out of thin air.

    This patent has been around for years, it's been discussed for years here too as you can see here: https://forums.ea.com/en/nhl/search?Search=patent

    EA does have this patent however we've confirmed across all of our sports titles that there is no DDA/scripting/tilt or whatever term you use, our Lead Gameplay Producer has even reiterated this in this very conversation recently:
    NHLDev wrote: »
    There is no DDA in NHL

    Beyond that if you choose to not believe us, it's your choice.
  • PadrinoIV
    884 posts Member
    EA_Roger wrote: »
    I edited your post to include your attachment as an image as well as a link to the reddit post @Treatmentworke66 .

    If you do check this out, I encourage you to look up the patent or conversations around this update rather than listening to the click-bait video entitled: "EA LEAKED PATENT EXPLAINED! SCRIPTING & PACK LUCK EXPOSED!". Patents are public so it's pretty hard to not leak them & the pack luck part of that video is literally pulled out of thin air.

    This patent has been around for years, it's been discussed for years here too as you can see here: https://forums.ea.com/en/nhl/search?Search=patent

    EA does have this patent however we've confirmed across all of our sports titles that there is no DDA/scripting/tilt or whatever term you use, our Lead Gameplay Producer has even reiterated this in this very conversation recently:
    NHLDev wrote: »
    There is no DDA in NHL

    Beyond that if you choose to not believe us, it's your choice.

    I choose not then. And if you play the game you know exactly what it is.
  • Sinbin
    1328 posts Member
    PadrinoIV wrote: »
    EA_Roger wrote: »
    I edited your post to include your attachment as an image as well as a link to the reddit post @Treatmentworke66 .

    If you do check this out, I encourage you to look up the patent or conversations around this update rather than listening to the click-bait video entitled: "EA LEAKED PATENT EXPLAINED! SCRIPTING & PACK LUCK EXPOSED!". Patents are public so it's pretty hard to not leak them & the pack luck part of that video is literally pulled out of thin air.

    This patent has been around for years, it's been discussed for years here too as you can see here: https://forums.ea.com/en/nhl/search?Search=patent

    EA does have this patent however we've confirmed across all of our sports titles that there is no DDA/scripting/tilt or whatever term you use, our Lead Gameplay Producer has even reiterated this in this very conversation recently:
    NHLDev wrote: »
    There is no DDA in NHL

    Beyond that if you choose to not believe us, it's your choice.

    I choose not then. And if you play the game you know exactly what it is.

    Not everyone that plays thinks the computer scripts their wins so they don't quit if they get a loss. Some of us are more accountable.
  • Tylytys
    35 posts Member
    Well if ea says it not ofc it is

  • Tylytys wrote: »
    Well if ea says it not ofc it is


    EA it's in the game
  • Z0mbieBabyJesus
    833 posts Member
    edited June 7
    Tylytys wrote: »
    Well if ea says it not ofc it is


    EA it's in the game

    That's just a patent. Many patents don't go beyond that stage. Show some confirmed data mined information(from nhl specifically), not just speculation based on an arbitrary patent.

    Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. So far, no such evidence has been provided outside of anecdotal evidence, and confirmation bias. I want to see hard proof before i hop aboard the ice tilt train.
  • Tylytys wrote: »
    Well if ea says it not ofc it is


    That isn't proof of anything outside of a patent was paid for. Doesn't prove its in any game, let alone nhl. This is about as useful as a flat earth video trying to claim Earth isn't a sphere.
  • Tylytys wrote: »
    Well if ea says it not ofc it is


    That isn't proof of anything outside of a patent was paid for. Doesn't prove its in any game, let alone nhl. This is about as useful as a flat earth video trying to claim Earth isn't a sphere.

    I really don't think that in VS so much but in my opinion , which I am in tilted to have in hut yes there is something to this will it stop me from playing no because at the end of the day it's just a video game
  • Tylytys wrote: »
    Well if ea says it not ofc it is


    That isn't proof of anything outside of a patent was paid for. Doesn't prove its in any game, let alone nhl. This is about as useful as a flat earth video trying to claim Earth isn't a sphere.

    I really don't think that in VS so much but in my opinion , which I am in tilted to have in hut yes there is something to this will it stop me from playing no because at the end of the day it's just a video game

    That something is latency.
  • NHL Dev wrote this on the first page:
    If you did lose more points than you should have due to an odd match against a current low rated player that is actually better than that and on their way up, it will even out as your next games will match relative to your updates CR and you would have a higher chance of going on a win streak until you settle into the range that is actually true to your skill.

    If there isn't anything being dynamically controlled behind the scenes, then why outside of simple match making would I have a higher chance of going on a "win streak"? If this was truly skill based, matching me against players of lower rank wouldn't mean I have a higher chance of a win streak. Over a 30 game span, I can consistently out-play opposing players ( out shoot, out pass, out hit, take less penalties ), however, out scoring is somewhat out of my control. Rarely do i see people that are good defenders, and it till come down to the goalie playing super human or super garbage. After those 30 games, I will come out of that with an even amount of CR.

    I've played too many games to chalk up things to being random or within my control. I think Im around 600 games in versus.

    - I've won faceoffs without touching the controller. Also seen people I'm playing against do the same. ( Not in my control )
    - Had players I'm in control of, reach for a puck and knock it to the opposing team. ( Not in my control )
    - I've played people that got a 2-0 lead and simply put the controller down. It became impossible to get the puck off his players without taking a penalty ( This is the opposite of what should happen, if a player isn't at the controls, it should be easy to steal the puck from them.) ( Not in my control )
    - I've had actions like shooting and passing automatically occur when skating to the puck up to 3 or 4 seconds after hitting a button ( this can be really inconsistent ) some games it works great ( caching button presses ) and other games it's horrible or doesn't work at all.
    - I've played people that were horrible but somehow had the AI help them in ways stay in the game.
    - I've had games where my players can't hold onto the puck if I make any motion to turn ( Not in my control )
    - I've had games where hitting was non-existant. You couldn't lay a body check into any player. ( Not in my control )
    - I've had pucks consistently bounce in one direction ( goes both ways )
    - I've poke checked a puck twice and on the second poke the puck will always go to an opposing team ( you can test this, it happens and its artificial ) ( Not in my control )
    - I've had AI player skating toward a loose puck and literally stop for an unknown reason ( Not in my control )
    - I've had AI players take the long way to get loose pucks or stutter skate ( to slow down ) when back-checking. ( Not in my control )
    - I've taken penalties off faceoffs for interference when i didn't do anything except try to win the faceoff.
    - I've skated around and around loose pucks where my player refuses to pick it up. ( Not in my control )
    - I've had games where my passing percentage was capped no matter what i did ( Not in my control )

    Anyway what i'm getting at, if you look at the game from an objective point of view, you will start to see there are many things out of the player control, and this gives players the feeling they are being cheated. If you can isolate these items and make an adjustment. The feeling of being dynamically "controlled" will go away and people will enjoy the franchise more. if you guys can't see this, well I'm afraid you won't get many players back each year.
  • COGSx86
    773 posts Member
    Fatboyee wrote: »
    there are many things out of the player control,

    All sports, like this they are, hmmmmmm

    Go in the corner, stick lift, hit a guy, come out with the puck, are you? hmmmmm?

    Me think not, hard to tell the future is. Opponent, quicker he could be!

    All around us, on these forums players complain, tough, battle fight, you must, for if you want to overcome the odds, find it within side yourself to overcome the adversity.

    Tough hockey is!





    You must unlearn what you have learned!
  • COGSx86 wrote: »
    Fatboyee wrote: »
    there are many things out of the player control,

    All sports, like this they are, hmmmmmm

    Go in the corner, stick lift, hit a guy, come out with the puck, are you? hmmmmm?

    Me think not, hard to tell the future is. Opponent, quicker he could be!

    All around us, on these forums players complain, tough, battle fight, you must, for if you want to overcome the odds, find it within side yourself to overcome the adversity.

    Tough hockey is!
    What you just wrote doesn't add much to what I said. Of course i hit and sticklift. it doesn't mean it has any impact when the opponent recovers so fast that you can't do anything about it.

    No, not all sports games are like this. When i say its "out of my control", I'm saying it SHOULD be in the players control. There's no reason why it isn't. The more things the player is in control of, the less they will feel cheated or slighted. Picking up a puck should be a button press, not chalked up to the game deciding to do it for you ( because it can make the difference between winning and losing ). apply that to the other items i listed and the game would have an immediate impact of being better.
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