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NHL 20 Content Update October 25th


Check out our CHEL notes with our October Patch update here.

AI is Still Awful

Replies

  • TheMajjam wrote: »
    Yeah, I've had enough. I realized after a while that you cannot change how smart the AI is with sliders. Thus, until the AI is improved, I'm not playing NHL 20. I went back to BOTH NHL 18 AND NHL 19 last night and had more fun playing those! With enough work, I could probably make those similar to today's game.

    Which reminds me, check out what's his name, Osilisk or something like that. He has apparently some fantastic sliders for NHL 19 if you are sim oriented. I think he posted all his settings in the NHL 19 forums section.

    Maybe @EA_Roger can dig that up. Dunno how he does it so fast, but he digs up facts in seconds.

    I have been looking for NHL 20 BAP offline sliders forever.

    I wouldn't be surprised if those sliders worked for 20 actually. Well, for the most part anyways.
  • TheMajjam wrote: »
    Yeah, I've had enough. I realized after a while that you cannot change how smart the AI is with sliders. Thus, until the AI is improved, I'm not playing NHL 20. I went back to BOTH NHL 18 AND NHL 19 last night and had more fun playing those! With enough work, I could probably make those similar to today's game.

    Which reminds me, check out what's his name, Osilisk or something like that. He has apparently some fantastic sliders for NHL 19 if you are sim oriented. I think he posted all his settings in the NHL 19 forums section.

    Maybe @EA_Roger can dig that up. Dunno how he does it so fast, but he digs up facts in seconds.

    I have been looking for NHL 20 BAP offline sliders forever.

    Try OperationSports forums. There are a lot there.

  • I think one of the big problems year to year with the AI is that the devs don't properly update the AI to handle new or changed game mechanics. And then things just compound as time goes on.

    For example last year they made using DSS/poke-checks much more likely to cause a tripping penalty. But they never updated the AI logic accordingly. Even in NHL 20 the AI is still taking absolutely terrible tripping penalties on poke attempts from horrible positions.

    Or the one-handed tuck deke. They introduced it but didn't update the goalies to be able to handle it at all.

    And in NHL 20 they bumped up the pass intercepts, but the AI is still trying the same passes that used to work in NHL 19 causing a ton of turnovers.

    Things like this happen every year and it just gets worse and worse as time goes by.
  • I know this is off-topic, but WainGretSki is officially my favorite person on these forums.

    Wain is one of the best. One of the last remaining OG’s who weren’t permanent victims of the “ban-hammer” era here. Sadly, I think these forums have gotten less constructive due to that dark era around here. Oh well...

    If you want a good take on a topic, look to Venom, Wain, or BMH (although he seems to have gone quiet.) Sigz also provides an OG early EASHL perspective to most topics as well.

    I don’t get on here much as I’ve simply been enjoying offline NHL 20, and it’s pretty clear that the AI is never going to be respectable in the generation of games. The sliders and strategy adjustment I use have made 20 the most enjoyable EA NHL experience to date, and I see no reason to continue offering huge, detailed posts when nothing has been touched AI-wise (for the better I should add) in 10 years.

    Thanks dude, but I must say, even though you don't post a whole lot, you post well. I like your ideas and we are obviously on the same page. You should come around a bit more often and keep shooting out those good ideas.

    Speaking of good ideas, how about this one? I am pretty sure I have mentioned it here before, but anywho, here goes.

    How about if a relatively short push (say 2 seconds or less) of the RS initiated a body check, as it currently is, but if you actually hold the RS (more than 2 seconds) in a direction, it allows you to "carry" a player to the boards. Kind of like a moving tie-up. Would remove the need for another button, the triangle, to do this. Also, as it is, you can only tie-up an immobile opponent with the triangle. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense, at least, to me.

    In hockey, you don't always have to actually body check a player every single time to strip the puck or take him out of the play. Carrying him to the boards and pinning him there does the job just fine. Actually, it is used a whole lot more than body checks.

    Love this idea, Wain. The next big step for hitting in this game is eliminating the “board play” button and having “board play” happen dynamically. I agree that if you hold RS, your guy should continue to finish the check and carry the player into the boards. Physical stats and vitals can play a role in how successful your player is at 1. Carrying the guy to the boards and 2. Efficiently sealing the lane off and making sure your avatar is the first player back into the play.

    There’s so many times in this game right now where you clip a guy because you’re aiming a little ahead of them (proper technique for this type of hit) but you end up only making the guy stumble which actually allows him to get past you and have better body position.

    I’ve written a few long threads about making the hit stick more dynamic and useful, and I still think there’s so much untapped potential there. From little cross-check shoves to carrying guys into the boards like you suggested, I think there’s a lot they can do without changing the foundation of the controls.

    Id still like to see a non-modified RS be a stick movement and RB be the hit modifier as you naturally use your stick in hockey whereas you actually plan and brace to use your body.

    DSS risk/reward still needs a ton of work. You shouldn’t draw a trip while gliding with the puck. I also don’t think you should be called if the attacker skates into your stick that’s already extended out. If your stick is already extended and the stick has to clip a body part to touch the puck, simply don’t allow the stick contact. This should actually lead to more offense, less stops in play, and less frustrating use of DSS for defenders.

    As of now, you need to use DSS perfectly otherwise it’s a penalty which seems way too risky compared to real-life stick usage. Now, if I have it extended, they skate over it and I in-turn keep trying to sweep with DSS, that should draw the trip, but as of now, I have no chance to save myself as a pre-extended stick automatically trips someone gliding or someone .001 second into their puck-pickup.

    Clearly and I don’t have the perfect answer for DSS, but there’s gotta be a middle-ground between zero consequence 18 and the meta we have now. It is way too easy to draw a trip, especially with how abusable LT skating is.

    6s this year is surprisingly fun. I think it’s the best 6s we’ve had on this gen. Goalies who sit deep are punished, game seems very team-oriented, and quick puck movement is essential. Either DSS needs a balance or body checking needs a slight buff because checking is a tad weak and stick use is still too risky. Also, stick-lift seems to have taken a huge nerf which is a very bad meta move if you’re essentially not allowing any wiggle room to make a mistake with DSS. Pass interceptions are insane and definitely need a nerf when facing away from the play, but I do like how effective they are from in-front as it’s fixed some of the problem angles for 6s Dmen that forwards have been exploiting since last-gen.

    Despite all of this, I find 20 to still be the top dog for 6s. It seems like an improvement over 19, and RPM skating makes 19-20 automatically better than any TPS release. That being said, I still lack the time to play online making me mostly on offline player now. I’m loving the pass receptions, the goalie redirects, and the slightly better pass interceptions. This will be my last NHL game (and maybe even EA’s as well) for this generation and I’m relatively happy with the experience I’ll have.
  • I know this is off-topic, but WainGretSki is officially my favorite person on these forums.

    Wain is one of the best. One of the last remaining OG’s who weren’t permanent victims of the “ban-hammer” era here. Sadly, I think these forums have gotten less constructive due to that dark era around here. Oh well...

    If you want a good take on a topic, look to Venom, Wain, or BMH (although he seems to have gone quiet.) Sigz also provides an OG early EASHL perspective to most topics as well.

    I don’t get on here much as I’ve simply been enjoying offline NHL 20, and it’s pretty clear that the AI is never going to be respectable in the generation of games. The sliders and strategy adjustment I use have made 20 the most enjoyable EA NHL experience to date, and I see no reason to continue offering huge, detailed posts when nothing has been touched AI-wise (for the better I should add) in 10 years.

    Thanks dude, but I must say, even though you don't post a whole lot, you post well. I like your ideas and we are obviously on the same page. You should come around a bit more often and keep shooting out those good ideas.

    Speaking of good ideas, how about this one? I am pretty sure I have mentioned it here before, but anywho, here goes.

    How about if a relatively short push (say 2 seconds or less) of the RS initiated a body check, as it currently is, but if you actually hold the RS (more than 2 seconds) in a direction, it allows you to "carry" a player to the boards. Kind of like a moving tie-up. Would remove the need for another button, the triangle, to do this. Also, as it is, you can only tie-up an immobile opponent with the triangle. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense, at least, to me.

    In hockey, you don't always have to actually body check a player every single time to strip the puck or take him out of the play. Carrying him to the boards and pinning him there does the job just fine. Actually, it is used a whole lot more than body checks.

    Love this idea, Wain. The next big step for hitting in this game is eliminating the “board play” button and having “board play” happen dynamically. I agree that if you hold RS, your guy should continue to finish the check and carry the player into the boards. Physical stats and vitals can play a role in how successful your player is at 1. Carrying the guy to the boards and 2. Efficiently sealing the lane off and making sure your avatar is the first player back into the play.

    There’s so many times in this game right now where you clip a guy because you’re aiming a little ahead of them (proper technique for this type of hit) but you end up only making the guy stumble which actually allows him to get past you and have better body position.

    I’ve written a few long threads about making the hit stick more dynamic and useful, and I still think there’s so much untapped potential there. From little cross-check shoves to carrying guys into the boards like you suggested, I think there’s a lot they can do without changing the foundation of the controls.

    Id still like to see a non-modified RS be a stick movement and RB be the hit modifier as you naturally use your stick in hockey whereas you actually plan and brace to use your body.

    DSS risk/reward still needs a ton of work. You shouldn’t draw a trip while gliding with the puck. I also don’t think you should be called if the attacker skates into your stick that’s already extended out. If your stick is already extended and the stick has to clip a body part to touch the puck, simply don’t allow the stick contact. This should actually lead to more offense, less stops in play, and less frustrating use of DSS for defenders.

    As of now, you need to use DSS perfectly otherwise it’s a penalty which seems way too risky compared to real-life stick usage. Now, if I have it extended, they skate over it and I in-turn keep trying to sweep with DSS, that should draw the trip, but as of now, I have no chance to save myself as a pre-extended stick automatically trips someone gliding or someone .001 second into their puck-pickup.

    Clearly and I don’t have the perfect answer for DSS, but there’s gotta be a middle-ground between zero consequence 18 and the meta we have now. It is way too easy to draw a trip, especially with how abusable LT skating is.

    6s this year is surprisingly fun. I think it’s the best 6s we’ve had on this gen. Goalies who sit deep are punished, game seems very team-oriented, and quick puck movement is essential. Either DSS needs a balance or body checking needs a slight buff because checking is a tad weak and stick use is still too risky. Also, stick-lift seems to have taken a huge nerf which is a very bad meta move if you’re essentially not allowing any wiggle room to make a mistake with DSS. Pass interceptions are insane and definitely need a nerf when facing away from the play, but I do like how effective they are from in-front as it’s fixed some of the problem angles for 6s Dmen that forwards have been exploiting since last-gen.

    Despite all of this, I find 20 to still be the top dog for 6s. It seems like an improvement over 19, and RPM skating makes 19-20 automatically better than any TPS release. That being said, I still lack the time to play online making me mostly on offline player now. I’m loving the pass receptions, the goalie redirects, and the slightly better pass interceptions. This will be my last NHL game (and maybe even EA’s as well) for this generation and I’m relatively happy with the experience I’ll have.

    I like where you're going with this. Cool ideas.

    May I suggest that when your DSS is fully extended, and a carrier cuts into it, what I would like to see happen is just what would happen in real life: his legs push your stick out to one side rendering it useless. From there you have to release DSS to "reset" it and then decide if you want to risk extending it back out or not. Don't see the need for that to be an automatic penalty.

    Also, if they bring back pyhsical play as it was the first couple of weeks in 19, hogging and backskating would be terminated on the spot. Would be a non-issue.

    And I agree. The get away with murder pokechecking of 18 and the practical guaranteed tripping penalty in 19-20? There is absolutely a gap in there and I agree that's where the game should try to be at. I don't understand why it is so sensitive and risky for the sake of realism when they allow the incredibly fantastical skating you can pull off while abusing LT. Hardly any realism there when I consider that not a single NHL player of any era can pull off skating like that especially while shrugging off physical contact and retaining puck possession.
  • I know this is off-topic, but WainGretSki is officially my favorite person on these forums.

    Wain is one of the best. One of the last remaining OG’s who weren’t permanent victims of the “ban-hammer” era here. Sadly, I think these forums have gotten less constructive due to that dark era around here. Oh well...

    If you want a good take on a topic, look to Venom, Wain, or BMH (although he seems to have gone quiet.) Sigz also provides an OG early EASHL perspective to most topics as well.

    I don’t get on here much as I’ve simply been enjoying offline NHL 20, and it’s pretty clear that the AI is never going to be respectable in the generation of games. The sliders and strategy adjustment I use have made 20 the most enjoyable EA NHL experience to date, and I see no reason to continue offering huge, detailed posts when nothing has been touched AI-wise (for the better I should add) in 10 years.

    Thanks dude, but I must say, even though you don't post a whole lot, you post well. I like your ideas and we are obviously on the same page. You should come around a bit more often and keep shooting out those good ideas.

    Speaking of good ideas, how about this one? I am pretty sure I have mentioned it here before, but anywho, here goes.

    How about if a relatively short push (say 2 seconds or less) of the RS initiated a body check, as it currently is, but if you actually hold the RS (more than 2 seconds) in a direction, it allows you to "carry" a player to the boards. Kind of like a moving tie-up. Would remove the need for another button, the triangle, to do this. Also, as it is, you can only tie-up an immobile opponent with the triangle. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense, at least, to me.

    In hockey, you don't always have to actually body check a player every single time to strip the puck or take him out of the play. Carrying him to the boards and pinning him there does the job just fine. Actually, it is used a whole lot more than body checks.

    Love this idea, Wain. The next big step for hitting in this game is eliminating the “board play” button and having “board play” happen dynamically. I agree that if you hold RS, your guy should continue to finish the check and carry the player into the boards. Physical stats and vitals can play a role in how successful your player is at 1. Carrying the guy to the boards and 2. Efficiently sealing the lane off and making sure your avatar is the first player back into the play.

    There’s so many times in this game right now where you clip a guy because you’re aiming a little ahead of them (proper technique for this type of hit) but you end up only making the guy stumble which actually allows him to get past you and have better body position.

    I’ve written a few long threads about making the hit stick more dynamic and useful, and I still think there’s so much untapped potential there. From little cross-check shoves to carrying guys into the boards like you suggested, I think there’s a lot they can do without changing the foundation of the controls.

    Id still like to see a non-modified RS be a stick movement and RB be the hit modifier as you naturally use your stick in hockey whereas you actually plan and brace to use your body.

    DSS risk/reward still needs a ton of work. You shouldn’t draw a trip while gliding with the puck. I also don’t think you should be called if the attacker skates into your stick that’s already extended out. If your stick is already extended and the stick has to clip a body part to touch the puck, simply don’t allow the stick contact. This should actually lead to more offense, less stops in play, and less frustrating use of DSS for defenders.

    As of now, you need to use DSS perfectly otherwise it’s a penalty which seems way too risky compared to real-life stick usage. Now, if I have it extended, they skate over it and I in-turn keep trying to sweep with DSS, that should draw the trip, but as of now, I have no chance to save myself as a pre-extended stick automatically trips someone gliding or someone .001 second into their puck-pickup.

    Clearly and I don’t have the perfect answer for DSS, but there’s gotta be a middle-ground between zero consequence 18 and the meta we have now. It is way too easy to draw a trip, especially with how abusable LT skating is.

    6s this year is surprisingly fun. I think it’s the best 6s we’ve had on this gen. Goalies who sit deep are punished, game seems very team-oriented, and quick puck movement is essential. Either DSS needs a balance or body checking needs a slight buff because checking is a tad weak and stick use is still too risky. Also, stick-lift seems to have taken a huge nerf which is a very bad meta move if you’re essentially not allowing any wiggle room to make a mistake with DSS. Pass interceptions are insane and definitely need a nerf when facing away from the play, but I do like how effective they are from in-front as it’s fixed some of the problem angles for 6s Dmen that forwards have been exploiting since last-gen.

    Despite all of this, I find 20 to still be the top dog for 6s. It seems like an improvement over 19, and RPM skating makes 19-20 automatically better than any TPS release. That being said, I still lack the time to play online making me mostly on offline player now. I’m loving the pass receptions, the goalie redirects, and the slightly better pass interceptions. This will be my last NHL game (and maybe even EA’s as well) for this generation and I’m relatively happy with the experience I’ll have.

    I like where you're going with this. Cool ideas.

    May I suggest that when your DSS is fully extended, and a carrier cuts into it, what I would like to see happen is just what would happen in real life: his legs push your stick out to one side rendering it useless. From there you have to release DSS to "reset" it and then decide if you want to risk extending it back out or not. Don't see the need for that to be an automatic penalty.

    Also, if they bring back pyhsical play as it was the first couple of weeks in 19, hogging and backskating would be terminated on the spot. Would be a non-issue.

    And I agree. The get away with murder pokechecking of 18 and the practical guaranteed tripping penalty in 19-20? There is absolutely a gap in there and I agree that's where the game should try to be at. I don't understand why it is so sensitive and risky for the sake of realism when they allow the incredibly fantastical skating you can pull off while abusing LT. Hardly any realism there when I consider that not a single NHL player of any era can pull off skating like that especially while shrugging off physical contact and retaining puck possession.

    We don't currently handle the physics of it but this is essentially how it works from a balance perspective. If your stick goes through one leg outside to in, we don't trip the player and it does render stick on stick and stick on puck useless as if the stick couldn't have got there due to the leg collision.

    We expect the player to realize this and let go of DSS which shouldn't trip players during the blend out either so if you let go, you should be good. If you continue to hold it where you swipe through both legs or keep it in a lane and take out both legs of a player or swipe from inside to out on a single leg, the player will trip.

    There are always things we can look at to improve but the mechanic is something people can learn and do well with. With a quick look at the current Online VS leaderboards, there are players holding teams to less than 1.5 goals a game and averaging less than 2 PIMs per game. Personally I am giving up just under 2 goals a game this year and I am averaging 1.6 PIMs per game. And with a quick browse of the WOC 6v6 leaderboard, there are players with less than 0.5 PIMS per game. Personally my PIMs per game while player locked in EASHL/OTP is 0.2 per game at the moment and a lot of those games are on defense.
  • The one improvement I'm happy for, is when the interference with the goalie, as the puck goes into the net
    happens, I can't automatically feel as if it is a no goal.
  • Can we get back on topic I'm interested in an answer to the topic especially since EA staff are active in this topic. Why does the AI make that play?
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    I know this is off-topic, but WainGretSki is officially my favorite person on these forums.

    Wain is one of the best. One of the last remaining OG’s who weren’t permanent victims of the “ban-hammer” era here. Sadly, I think these forums have gotten less constructive due to that dark era around here. Oh well...

    If you want a good take on a topic, look to Venom, Wain, or BMH (although he seems to have gone quiet.) Sigz also provides an OG early EASHL perspective to most topics as well.

    I don’t get on here much as I’ve simply been enjoying offline NHL 20, and it’s pretty clear that the AI is never going to be respectable in the generation of games. The sliders and strategy adjustment I use have made 20 the most enjoyable EA NHL experience to date, and I see no reason to continue offering huge, detailed posts when nothing has been touched AI-wise (for the better I should add) in 10 years.

    Thanks dude, but I must say, even though you don't post a whole lot, you post well. I like your ideas and we are obviously on the same page. You should come around a bit more often and keep shooting out those good ideas.

    Speaking of good ideas, how about this one? I am pretty sure I have mentioned it here before, but anywho, here goes.

    How about if a relatively short push (say 2 seconds or less) of the RS initiated a body check, as it currently is, but if you actually hold the RS (more than 2 seconds) in a direction, it allows you to "carry" a player to the boards. Kind of like a moving tie-up. Would remove the need for another button, the triangle, to do this. Also, as it is, you can only tie-up an immobile opponent with the triangle. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense, at least, to me.

    In hockey, you don't always have to actually body check a player every single time to strip the puck or take him out of the play. Carrying him to the boards and pinning him there does the job just fine. Actually, it is used a whole lot more than body checks.

    Love this idea, Wain. The next big step for hitting in this game is eliminating the “board play” button and having “board play” happen dynamically. I agree that if you hold RS, your guy should continue to finish the check and carry the player into the boards. Physical stats and vitals can play a role in how successful your player is at 1. Carrying the guy to the boards and 2. Efficiently sealing the lane off and making sure your avatar is the first player back into the play.

    There’s so many times in this game right now where you clip a guy because you’re aiming a little ahead of them (proper technique for this type of hit) but you end up only making the guy stumble which actually allows him to get past you and have better body position.

    I’ve written a few long threads about making the hit stick more dynamic and useful, and I still think there’s so much untapped potential there. From little cross-check shoves to carrying guys into the boards like you suggested, I think there’s a lot they can do without changing the foundation of the controls.

    Id still like to see a non-modified RS be a stick movement and RB be the hit modifier as you naturally use your stick in hockey whereas you actually plan and brace to use your body.

    DSS risk/reward still needs a ton of work. You shouldn’t draw a trip while gliding with the puck. I also don’t think you should be called if the attacker skates into your stick that’s already extended out. If your stick is already extended and the stick has to clip a body part to touch the puck, simply don’t allow the stick contact. This should actually lead to more offense, less stops in play, and less frustrating use of DSS for defenders.

    As of now, you need to use DSS perfectly otherwise it’s a penalty which seems way too risky compared to real-life stick usage. Now, if I have it extended, they skate over it and I in-turn keep trying to sweep with DSS, that should draw the trip, but as of now, I have no chance to save myself as a pre-extended stick automatically trips someone gliding or someone .001 second into their puck-pickup.

    Clearly and I don’t have the perfect answer for DSS, but there’s gotta be a middle-ground between zero consequence 18 and the meta we have now. It is way too easy to draw a trip, especially with how abusable LT skating is.

    6s this year is surprisingly fun. I think it’s the best 6s we’ve had on this gen. Goalies who sit deep are punished, game seems very team-oriented, and quick puck movement is essential. Either DSS needs a balance or body checking needs a slight buff because checking is a tad weak and stick use is still too risky. Also, stick-lift seems to have taken a huge nerf which is a very bad meta move if you’re essentially not allowing any wiggle room to make a mistake with DSS. Pass interceptions are insane and definitely need a nerf when facing away from the play, but I do like how effective they are from in-front as it’s fixed some of the problem angles for 6s Dmen that forwards have been exploiting since last-gen.

    Despite all of this, I find 20 to still be the top dog for 6s. It seems like an improvement over 19, and RPM skating makes 19-20 automatically better than any TPS release. That being said, I still lack the time to play online making me mostly on offline player now. I’m loving the pass receptions, the goalie redirects, and the slightly better pass interceptions. This will be my last NHL game (and maybe even EA’s as well) for this generation and I’m relatively happy with the experience I’ll have.

    I like where you're going with this. Cool ideas.

    May I suggest that when your DSS is fully extended, and a carrier cuts into it, what I would like to see happen is just what would happen in real life: his legs push your stick out to one side rendering it useless. From there you have to release DSS to "reset" it and then decide if you want to risk extending it back out or not. Don't see the need for that to be an automatic penalty.

    Also, if they bring back pyhsical play as it was the first couple of weeks in 19, hogging and backskating would be terminated on the spot. Would be a non-issue.

    And I agree. The get away with murder pokechecking of 18 and the practical guaranteed tripping penalty in 19-20? There is absolutely a gap in there and I agree that's where the game should try to be at. I don't understand why it is so sensitive and risky for the sake of realism when they allow the incredibly fantastical skating you can pull off while abusing LT. Hardly any realism there when I consider that not a single NHL player of any era can pull off skating like that especially while shrugging off physical contact and retaining puck possession.

    We don't currently handle the physics of it but this is essentially how it works from a balance perspective. If your stick goes through one leg outside to in, we don't trip the player and it does render stick on stick and stick on puck useless as if the stick couldn't have got there due to the leg collision.

    We expect the player to realize this and let go of DSS which shouldn't trip players during the blend out either so if you let go, you should be good. If you continue to hold it where you swipe through both legs or keep it in a lane and take out both legs of a player or swipe from inside to out on a single leg, the player will trip.

    There are always things we can look at to improve but the mechanic is something people can learn and do well with. With a quick look at the current Online VS leaderboards, there are players holding teams to less than 1.5 goals a game and averaging less than 2 PIMs per game. Personally I am giving up just under 2 goals a game this year and I am averaging 1.6 PIMs per game. And with a quick browse of the WOC 6v6 leaderboard, there are players with less than 0.5 PIMS per game. Personally my PIMs per game while player locked in EASHL/OTP is 0.2 per game at the moment and a lot of those games are on defense.

    While the stats you posted are great, they don’t prove that people are actively using their sticks well while playing. I’ve played with enough elite level EASHL teams in 19/20 to know that we are great at using DSS to maintain a gap and being annoying on zone entries (assuming they haven’t hit LT 15 times in the last 5 seconds) but I find the risk/reward still too high.

    One millimeter of your stick taps the slightest bit of the tip of the front of the attackers skate while gliding or spinning and it’s auto trip. What other mechanic in this game requires that level of precision to effectively use? Active sticks are one the foundations of successful defense in real life, yet the over-abundance of agility and glass ankles in the game has turned into a very specific tool that can only be used when very favorable conditions are met.

    I just don’t agree that stats tell the whole story. Sure, PIM stats look normal, but that’s because everyone has learned to never touch RB unless the situation is close to perfect. With stick-loft effectiveness and low-speed hitting effectiveness taking noticeable drops in 20, it’s made the lack of being able to effectively use DDS even more noticeable than 19.m, especially due to the fact that pass interceptions are so dang high that we’re seeing more ISO plays and corner spinning than ever before.

    I would much rather see DSS be a more usable and less risky tool, than have it essentially pigeon-holed into a special tool while jacking up pass interceptions to unbelievable levels. As a long-time Dman, you’re simply making the position less active and less fun each year. As fun as feathering LT and sitting in passing lanes like cornerback is, I’d like to actually play some tight gaps with an active stick rather than passively watching someone do semi-circles while I try to lurk my “zone.”
  • WainGretSki
    3026 posts Member
    edited October 15
    NHLDev wrote: »
    I know this is off-topic, but WainGretSki is officially my favorite person on these forums.

    Wain is one of the best. One of the last remaining OG’s who weren’t permanent victims of the “ban-hammer” era here. Sadly, I think these forums have gotten less constructive due to that dark era around here. Oh well...

    If you want a good take on a topic, look to Venom, Wain, or BMH (although he seems to have gone quiet.) Sigz also provides an OG early EASHL perspective to most topics as well.

    I don’t get on here much as I’ve simply been enjoying offline NHL 20, and it’s pretty clear that the AI is never going to be respectable in the generation of games. The sliders and strategy adjustment I use have made 20 the most enjoyable EA NHL experience to date, and I see no reason to continue offering huge, detailed posts when nothing has been touched AI-wise (for the better I should add) in 10 years.

    Thanks dude, but I must say, even though you don't post a whole lot, you post well. I like your ideas and we are obviously on the same page. You should come around a bit more often and keep shooting out those good ideas.

    Speaking of good ideas, how about this one? I am pretty sure I have mentioned it here before, but anywho, here goes.

    How about if a relatively short push (say 2 seconds or less) of the RS initiated a body check, as it currently is, but if you actually hold the RS (more than 2 seconds) in a direction, it allows you to "carry" a player to the boards. Kind of like a moving tie-up. Would remove the need for another button, the triangle, to do this. Also, as it is, you can only tie-up an immobile opponent with the triangle. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense, at least, to me.

    In hockey, you don't always have to actually body check a player every single time to strip the puck or take him out of the play. Carrying him to the boards and pinning him there does the job just fine. Actually, it is used a whole lot more than body checks.

    Love this idea, Wain. The next big step for hitting in this game is eliminating the “board play” button and having “board play” happen dynamically. I agree that if you hold RS, your guy should continue to finish the check and carry the player into the boards. Physical stats and vitals can play a role in how successful your player is at 1. Carrying the guy to the boards and 2. Efficiently sealing the lane off and making sure your avatar is the first player back into the play.

    There’s so many times in this game right now where you clip a guy because you’re aiming a little ahead of them (proper technique for this type of hit) but you end up only making the guy stumble which actually allows him to get past you and have better body position.

    I’ve written a few long threads about making the hit stick more dynamic and useful, and I still think there’s so much untapped potential there. From little cross-check shoves to carrying guys into the boards like you suggested, I think there’s a lot they can do without changing the foundation of the controls.

    Id still like to see a non-modified RS be a stick movement and RB be the hit modifier as you naturally use your stick in hockey whereas you actually plan and brace to use your body.

    DSS risk/reward still needs a ton of work. You shouldn’t draw a trip while gliding with the puck. I also don’t think you should be called if the attacker skates into your stick that’s already extended out. If your stick is already extended and the stick has to clip a body part to touch the puck, simply don’t allow the stick contact. This should actually lead to more offense, less stops in play, and less frustrating use of DSS for defenders.

    As of now, you need to use DSS perfectly otherwise it’s a penalty which seems way too risky compared to real-life stick usage. Now, if I have it extended, they skate over it and I in-turn keep trying to sweep with DSS, that should draw the trip, but as of now, I have no chance to save myself as a pre-extended stick automatically trips someone gliding or someone .001 second into their puck-pickup.

    Clearly and I don’t have the perfect answer for DSS, but there’s gotta be a middle-ground between zero consequence 18 and the meta we have now. It is way too easy to draw a trip, especially with how abusable LT skating is.

    6s this year is surprisingly fun. I think it’s the best 6s we’ve had on this gen. Goalies who sit deep are punished, game seems very team-oriented, and quick puck movement is essential. Either DSS needs a balance or body checking needs a slight buff because checking is a tad weak and stick use is still too risky. Also, stick-lift seems to have taken a huge nerf which is a very bad meta move if you’re essentially not allowing any wiggle room to make a mistake with DSS. Pass interceptions are insane and definitely need a nerf when facing away from the play, but I do like how effective they are from in-front as it’s fixed some of the problem angles for 6s Dmen that forwards have been exploiting since last-gen.

    Despite all of this, I find 20 to still be the top dog for 6s. It seems like an improvement over 19, and RPM skating makes 19-20 automatically better than any TPS release. That being said, I still lack the time to play online making me mostly on offline player now. I’m loving the pass receptions, the goalie redirects, and the slightly better pass interceptions. This will be my last NHL game (and maybe even EA’s as well) for this generation and I’m relatively happy with the experience I’ll have.

    I like where you're going with this. Cool ideas.

    May I suggest that when your DSS is fully extended, and a carrier cuts into it, what I would like to see happen is just what would happen in real life: his legs push your stick out to one side rendering it useless. From there you have to release DSS to "reset" it and then decide if you want to risk extending it back out or not. Don't see the need for that to be an automatic penalty.

    Also, if they bring back pyhsical play as it was the first couple of weeks in 19, hogging and backskating would be terminated on the spot. Would be a non-issue.

    And I agree. The get away with murder pokechecking of 18 and the practical guaranteed tripping penalty in 19-20? There is absolutely a gap in there and I agree that's where the game should try to be at. I don't understand why it is so sensitive and risky for the sake of realism when they allow the incredibly fantastical skating you can pull off while abusing LT. Hardly any realism there when I consider that not a single NHL player of any era can pull off skating like that especially while shrugging off physical contact and retaining puck possession.

    We don't currently handle the physics of it but this is essentially how it works from a balance perspective. If your stick goes through one leg outside to in, we don't trip the player and it does render stick on stick and stick on puck useless as if the stick couldn't have got there due to the leg collision.

    We expect the player to realize this and let go of DSS which shouldn't trip players during the blend out either so if you let go, you should be good. If you continue to hold it where you swipe through both legs or keep it in a lane and take out both legs of a player or swipe from inside to out on a single leg, the player will trip.

    There are always things we can look at to improve but the mechanic is something people can learn and do well with. With a quick look at the current Online VS leaderboards, there are players holding teams to less than 1.5 goals a game and averaging less than 2 PIMs per game. Personally I am giving up just under 2 goals a game this year and I am averaging 1.6 PIMs per game. And with a quick browse of the WOC 6v6 leaderboard, there are players with less than 0.5 PIMS per game. Personally my PIMs per game while player locked in EASHL/OTP is 0.2 per game at the moment and a lot of those games are on defense.

    First of all, I thank you for responding. It really is appreciated.

    First paragraph:

    I do not completely agree that it is essentially the same from a balance perspective. I get why you are going there with your response, but I cannot completely agree. If a carrier decides to cut in and bully passed a defender's stick, his inside leg will just push the stick out of the way, even more so if the defender has only 1 hand on his stick. Physically, in that situation, a defender wouldn't even be able to touch the second skate, let alone trip the carrier.


    Second paragraph:

    The way dekes are set up in the game, their lateral accelerations are exaggerated and are faster than our reaction times for letting go of the DSS. Well, it is for me anyways. It is also very quick and easy to suddenly backskate towards a defender just as the gap is about to knock the puck away and get the tripping call.

    Third paragraph:

    I don't have access to those kinds of stats as you guys do, nor do I know in which way that info was pulled, but to me it doesn't tell a whole lot about defensive play. For all I know, those players could be spending a vast majority of their games in the offensive or neutral zones. Maybe they have really high puck possession times. I also do not see how it indicates in any way whatsoever if those players are even using the DSS, or which defensive tactics they are employing.

    And as it has been pointed out in the post above mine, the accountability of pokes and DSS is insanely high compared to the tuning in other areas and doesn't function very well when you add glass ankles into the mix. As it stands, attacking the puck or a carrier is simply not fun or rewarding in any way. Playing defense is absolutely boring right now and I feel a bit more useful than an interactive pylon. This is even more frustrating when I take into account the beta and first few weeks of 19. That to me was a far better balance for a team-oriented game and it seems like this was what you guys were striving for. It was the desired vision and direction of the game.

    Now, it seems all that matters is scoring goals and being able to go end-to-end with the puck when in reality this type of strategy would get you destroyed on ice in real life. Not a single team plays this way and with good reason. Yes, I know it is a video game, but shot aim is already higher than it should be, skating is faster and soooo much more fantastical that it is actually out of proportion on so many levels, physical play is dumbed down to pretty much as far as you can go without having insane backlash, players fall and get back up with the puck faster than the checker can recover from a hit, dekes are alot easier to pull off than old gen, goalies are dumbed down and in fact, their new "threat analysis" should be on milk cartoons because it has gone missing, do we really need the DSS to be so accountable? How much more advantages do forwards need to make this game "fun" ? I am speaking solely for myself and a few friends that used to enjoy this game, but for those of us that think hockey is alot more than scoring goals, this game is insanely boring now and very unrewarding. It does not have that hockey spirit to it in any way. Now it's just Hog 'N Fest 20. There isn't really any balance left in this game. I don't call it a game anymore, but a chore to play.

    I am sorry if you feel insulted as it isn't my intention. Just trying to give as clear as possible a picture about how I feel about this game and where I fear it is heading over the next few short years.

    EDIT***

    I should point out that when I play 6s, I take less than 1 tripping penalty per game on average. In club, I take about 1 trip every 2-3 games. And when I do trip, I know it is just before I get called. I know when and where I committed that mistake.

    In dropins I take about 1 call per game, sometimes more, sometimes less. Depends how lucky in the draw I get with the genetic pool of dropins.

    So in esssence, I can use DSS. Keyword here is can. Why is it I can use it, when in actuality I should be using it, and as much as possible?
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    I know this is off-topic, but WainGretSki is officially my favorite person on these forums.

    Wain is one of the best. One of the last remaining OG’s who weren’t permanent victims of the “ban-hammer” era here. Sadly, I think these forums have gotten less constructive due to that dark era around here. Oh well...

    If you want a good take on a topic, look to Venom, Wain, or BMH (although he seems to have gone quiet.) Sigz also provides an OG early EASHL perspective to most topics as well.

    I don’t get on here much as I’ve simply been enjoying offline NHL 20, and it’s pretty clear that the AI is never going to be respectable in the generation of games. The sliders and strategy adjustment I use have made 20 the most enjoyable EA NHL experience to date, and I see no reason to continue offering huge, detailed posts when nothing has been touched AI-wise (for the better I should add) in 10 years.

    Thanks dude, but I must say, even though you don't post a whole lot, you post well. I like your ideas and we are obviously on the same page. You should come around a bit more often and keep shooting out those good ideas.

    Speaking of good ideas, how about this one? I am pretty sure I have mentioned it here before, but anywho, here goes.

    How about if a relatively short push (say 2 seconds or less) of the RS initiated a body check, as it currently is, but if you actually hold the RS (more than 2 seconds) in a direction, it allows you to "carry" a player to the boards. Kind of like a moving tie-up. Would remove the need for another button, the triangle, to do this. Also, as it is, you can only tie-up an immobile opponent with the triangle. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense, at least, to me.

    In hockey, you don't always have to actually body check a player every single time to strip the puck or take him out of the play. Carrying him to the boards and pinning him there does the job just fine. Actually, it is used a whole lot more than body checks.

    Love this idea, Wain. The next big step for hitting in this game is eliminating the “board play” button and having “board play” happen dynamically. I agree that if you hold RS, your guy should continue to finish the check and carry the player into the boards. Physical stats and vitals can play a role in how successful your player is at 1. Carrying the guy to the boards and 2. Efficiently sealing the lane off and making sure your avatar is the first player back into the play.

    There’s so many times in this game right now where you clip a guy because you’re aiming a little ahead of them (proper technique for this type of hit) but you end up only making the guy stumble which actually allows him to get past you and have better body position.

    I’ve written a few long threads about making the hit stick more dynamic and useful, and I still think there’s so much untapped potential there. From little cross-check shoves to carrying guys into the boards like you suggested, I think there’s a lot they can do without changing the foundation of the controls.

    Id still like to see a non-modified RS be a stick movement and RB be the hit modifier as you naturally use your stick in hockey whereas you actually plan and brace to use your body.

    DSS risk/reward still needs a ton of work. You shouldn’t draw a trip while gliding with the puck. I also don’t think you should be called if the attacker skates into your stick that’s already extended out. If your stick is already extended and the stick has to clip a body part to touch the puck, simply don’t allow the stick contact. This should actually lead to more offense, less stops in play, and less frustrating use of DSS for defenders.

    As of now, you need to use DSS perfectly otherwise it’s a penalty which seems way too risky compared to real-life stick usage. Now, if I have it extended, they skate over it and I in-turn keep trying to sweep with DSS, that should draw the trip, but as of now, I have no chance to save myself as a pre-extended stick automatically trips someone gliding or someone .001 second into their puck-pickup.

    Clearly and I don’t have the perfect answer for DSS, but there’s gotta be a middle-ground between zero consequence 18 and the meta we have now. It is way too easy to draw a trip, especially with how abusable LT skating is.

    6s this year is surprisingly fun. I think it’s the best 6s we’ve had on this gen. Goalies who sit deep are punished, game seems very team-oriented, and quick puck movement is essential. Either DSS needs a balance or body checking needs a slight buff because checking is a tad weak and stick use is still too risky. Also, stick-lift seems to have taken a huge nerf which is a very bad meta move if you’re essentially not allowing any wiggle room to make a mistake with DSS. Pass interceptions are insane and definitely need a nerf when facing away from the play, but I do like how effective they are from in-front as it’s fixed some of the problem angles for 6s Dmen that forwards have been exploiting since last-gen.

    Despite all of this, I find 20 to still be the top dog for 6s. It seems like an improvement over 19, and RPM skating makes 19-20 automatically better than any TPS release. That being said, I still lack the time to play online making me mostly on offline player now. I’m loving the pass receptions, the goalie redirects, and the slightly better pass interceptions. This will be my last NHL game (and maybe even EA’s as well) for this generation and I’m relatively happy with the experience I’ll have.

    I like where you're going with this. Cool ideas.

    May I suggest that when your DSS is fully extended, and a carrier cuts into it, what I would like to see happen is just what would happen in real life: his legs push your stick out to one side rendering it useless. From there you have to release DSS to "reset" it and then decide if you want to risk extending it back out or not. Don't see the need for that to be an automatic penalty.

    Also, if they bring back pyhsical play as it was the first couple of weeks in 19, hogging and backskating would be terminated on the spot. Would be a non-issue.

    And I agree. The get away with murder pokechecking of 18 and the practical guaranteed tripping penalty in 19-20? There is absolutely a gap in there and I agree that's where the game should try to be at. I don't understand why it is so sensitive and risky for the sake of realism when they allow the incredibly fantastical skating you can pull off while abusing LT. Hardly any realism there when I consider that not a single NHL player of any era can pull off skating like that especially while shrugging off physical contact and retaining puck possession.

    We don't currently handle the physics of it but this is essentially how it works from a balance perspective. If your stick goes through one leg outside to in, we don't trip the player and it does render stick on stick and stick on puck useless as if the stick couldn't have got there due to the leg collision.

    We expect the player to realize this and let go of DSS which shouldn't trip players during the blend out either so if you let go, you should be good. If you continue to hold it where you swipe through both legs or keep it in a lane and take out both legs of a player or swipe from inside to out on a single leg, the player will trip.

    There are always things we can look at to improve but the mechanic is something people can learn and do well with. With a quick look at the current Online VS leaderboards, there are players holding teams to less than 1.5 goals a game and averaging less than 2 PIMs per game. Personally I am giving up just under 2 goals a game this year and I am averaging 1.6 PIMs per game. And with a quick browse of the WOC 6v6 leaderboard, there are players with less than 0.5 PIMS per game. Personally my PIMs per game while player locked in EASHL/OTP is 0.2 per game at the moment and a lot of those games are on defense.

    While the stats you posted are great, they don’t prove that people are actively using their sticks well while playing. I’ve played with enough elite level EASHL teams in 19/20 to know that we are great at using DSS to maintain a gap and being annoying on zone entries (assuming they haven’t hit LT 15 times in the last 5 seconds) but I find the risk/reward still too high.

    One millimeter of your stick taps the slightest bit of the tip of the front of the attackers skate while gliding or spinning and it’s auto trip. What other mechanic in this game requires that level of precision to effectively use? Active sticks are one the foundations of successful defense in real life, yet the over-abundance of agility and glass ankles in the game has turned into a very specific tool that can only be used when very favorable conditions are met.

    I just don’t agree that stats tell the whole story. Sure, PIM stats look normal, but that’s because everyone has learned to never touch RB unless the situation is close to perfect. With stick-loft effectiveness and low-speed hitting effectiveness taking noticeable drops in 20, it’s made the lack of being able to effectively use DDS even more noticeable than 19.m, especially due to the fact that pass interceptions are so dang high that we’re seeing more ISO plays and corner spinning than ever before.

    I would much rather see DSS be a more usable and less risky tool, than have it essentially pigeon-holed into a special tool while jacking up pass interceptions to unbelievable levels. As a long-time Dman, you’re simply making the position less active and less fun each year. As fun as feathering LT and sitting in passing lanes like cornerback is, I’d like to actually play some tight gaps with an active stick rather than passively watching someone do semi-circles while I try to lurk my “zone.”

    Nailed it buddy. I fully agree.
  • Steven5470
    217 posts Member
    edited October 15
    Here is an example of what I consider a huge bug in this game to go with the "AI is awful". When you or the AI pass the puck off the boards, the puck can no longer be picked up by that player. Some reason, I passed it immediate left. I skated over to get it and literally skated over the puck.

    This happens very frequently in exhibition and not sure why EA programmed the AI to constantly use the boards for passing. I've never seen the AI use the boards as frequently as they do for passing. I've seen it where the AI passes the puck off the boards and skates over the same pass as if they no longer care about the puck.

  • NHLDev wrote: »
    I know this is off-topic, but WainGretSki is officially my favorite person on these forums.

    Wain is one of the best. One of the last remaining OG’s who weren’t permanent victims of the “ban-hammer” era here. Sadly, I think these forums have gotten less constructive due to that dark era around here. Oh well...

    If you want a good take on a topic, look to Venom, Wain, or BMH (although he seems to have gone quiet.) Sigz also provides an OG early EASHL perspective to most topics as well.

    I don’t get on here much as I’ve simply been enjoying offline NHL 20, and it’s pretty clear that the AI is never going to be respectable in the generation of games. The sliders and strategy adjustment I use have made 20 the most enjoyable EA NHL experience to date, and I see no reason to continue offering huge, detailed posts when nothing has been touched AI-wise (for the better I should add) in 10 years.

    Thanks dude, but I must say, even though you don't post a whole lot, you post well. I like your ideas and we are obviously on the same page. You should come around a bit more often and keep shooting out those good ideas.

    Speaking of good ideas, how about this one? I am pretty sure I have mentioned it here before, but anywho, here goes.

    How about if a relatively short push (say 2 seconds or less) of the RS initiated a body check, as it currently is, but if you actually hold the RS (more than 2 seconds) in a direction, it allows you to "carry" a player to the boards. Kind of like a moving tie-up. Would remove the need for another button, the triangle, to do this. Also, as it is, you can only tie-up an immobile opponent with the triangle. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense, at least, to me.

    In hockey, you don't always have to actually body check a player every single time to strip the puck or take him out of the play. Carrying him to the boards and pinning him there does the job just fine. Actually, it is used a whole lot more than body checks.

    Love this idea, Wain. The next big step for hitting in this game is eliminating the “board play” button and having “board play” happen dynamically. I agree that if you hold RS, your guy should continue to finish the check and carry the player into the boards. Physical stats and vitals can play a role in how successful your player is at 1. Carrying the guy to the boards and 2. Efficiently sealing the lane off and making sure your avatar is the first player back into the play.

    There’s so many times in this game right now where you clip a guy because you’re aiming a little ahead of them (proper technique for this type of hit) but you end up only making the guy stumble which actually allows him to get past you and have better body position.

    I’ve written a few long threads about making the hit stick more dynamic and useful, and I still think there’s so much untapped potential there. From little cross-check shoves to carrying guys into the boards like you suggested, I think there’s a lot they can do without changing the foundation of the controls.

    Id still like to see a non-modified RS be a stick movement and RB be the hit modifier as you naturally use your stick in hockey whereas you actually plan and brace to use your body.

    DSS risk/reward still needs a ton of work. You shouldn’t draw a trip while gliding with the puck. I also don’t think you should be called if the attacker skates into your stick that’s already extended out. If your stick is already extended and the stick has to clip a body part to touch the puck, simply don’t allow the stick contact. This should actually lead to more offense, less stops in play, and less frustrating use of DSS for defenders.

    As of now, you need to use DSS perfectly otherwise it’s a penalty which seems way too risky compared to real-life stick usage. Now, if I have it extended, they skate over it and I in-turn keep trying to sweep with DSS, that should draw the trip, but as of now, I have no chance to save myself as a pre-extended stick automatically trips someone gliding or someone .001 second into their puck-pickup.

    Clearly and I don’t have the perfect answer for DSS, but there’s gotta be a middle-ground between zero consequence 18 and the meta we have now. It is way too easy to draw a trip, especially with how abusable LT skating is.

    6s this year is surprisingly fun. I think it’s the best 6s we’ve had on this gen. Goalies who sit deep are punished, game seems very team-oriented, and quick puck movement is essential. Either DSS needs a balance or body checking needs a slight buff because checking is a tad weak and stick use is still too risky. Also, stick-lift seems to have taken a huge nerf which is a very bad meta move if you’re essentially not allowing any wiggle room to make a mistake with DSS. Pass interceptions are insane and definitely need a nerf when facing away from the play, but I do like how effective they are from in-front as it’s fixed some of the problem angles for 6s Dmen that forwards have been exploiting since last-gen.

    Despite all of this, I find 20 to still be the top dog for 6s. It seems like an improvement over 19, and RPM skating makes 19-20 automatically better than any TPS release. That being said, I still lack the time to play online making me mostly on offline player now. I’m loving the pass receptions, the goalie redirects, and the slightly better pass interceptions. This will be my last NHL game (and maybe even EA’s as well) for this generation and I’m relatively happy with the experience I’ll have.

    I like where you're going with this. Cool ideas.

    May I suggest that when your DSS is fully extended, and a carrier cuts into it, what I would like to see happen is just what would happen in real life: his legs push your stick out to one side rendering it useless. From there you have to release DSS to "reset" it and then decide if you want to risk extending it back out or not. Don't see the need for that to be an automatic penalty.

    Also, if they bring back pyhsical play as it was the first couple of weeks in 19, hogging and backskating would be terminated on the spot. Would be a non-issue.

    And I agree. The get away with murder pokechecking of 18 and the practical guaranteed tripping penalty in 19-20? There is absolutely a gap in there and I agree that's where the game should try to be at. I don't understand why it is so sensitive and risky for the sake of realism when they allow the incredibly fantastical skating you can pull off while abusing LT. Hardly any realism there when I consider that not a single NHL player of any era can pull off skating like that especially while shrugging off physical contact and retaining puck possession.

    We don't currently handle the physics of it but this is essentially how it works from a balance perspective. If your stick goes through one leg outside to in, we don't trip the player and it does render stick on stick and stick on puck useless as if the stick couldn't have got there due to the leg collision.

    We expect the player to realize this and let go of DSS which shouldn't trip players during the blend out either so if you let go, you should be good. If you continue to hold it where you swipe through both legs or keep it in a lane and take out both legs of a player or swipe from inside to out on a single leg, the player will trip.

    There are always things we can look at to improve but the mechanic is something people can learn and do well with. With a quick look at the current Online VS leaderboards, there are players holding teams to less than 1.5 goals a game and averaging less than 2 PIMs per game. Personally I am giving up just under 2 goals a game this year and I am averaging 1.6 PIMs per game. And with a quick browse of the WOC 6v6 leaderboard, there are players with less than 0.5 PIMS per game. Personally my PIMs per game while player locked in EASHL/OTP is 0.2 per game at the moment and a lot of those games are on defense.

    First of all, I thank you for responding. It really is appreciated.

    First paragraph:

    I do not completely agree that it is essentially the same from a balance perspective. I get why you are going there with your response, but I cannot completely agree. If a carrier decides to cut in and bully passed a defender's stick, his inside leg will just push the stick out of the way, even more so if the defender has only 1 hand on his stick. Physically, in that situation, a defender wouldn't even be able to touch the second skate, let alone trip the carrier.


    Second paragraph:

    The way dekes are set up in the game, their lateral accelerations are exaggerated and are faster than our reaction times for letting go of the DSS. Well, it is for me anyways. It is also very quick and easy to suddenly backskate towards a defender just as the gap is about to knock the puck away and get the tripping call.

    Third paragraph:

    I don't have access to those kinds of stats as you guys do, nor do I know in which way that info was pulled, but to me it doesn't tell a whole lot about defensive play. For all I know, those players could be spending a vast majority of their games in the offensive or neutral zones. Maybe they have really high puck possession times. I also do not see how it indicates in any way whatsoever if those players are even using the DSS, or which defensive tactics they are employing.

    And as it has been pointed out in the post above mine, the accountability of pokes and DSS is insanely high compared to the tuning in other areas and doesn't function very well when you add glass ankles into the mix. As it stands, attacking the puck or a carrier is simply not fun or rewarding in any way. Playing defense is absolutely boring right now and I feel a bit more useful than an interactive pylon. This is even more frustrating when I take into account the beta and first few weeks of 19. That to me was a far better balance for a team-oriented game and it seems like this was what you guys were striving for. It was the desired vision and direction of the game.

    Now, it seems all that matters is scoring goals and being able to go end-to-end with the puck when in reality this type of strategy would get you destroyed on ice in real life. Not a single team plays this way and with good reason. Yes, I know it is a video game, but shot aim is already higher than it should be, skating is faster and soooo much more fantastical that it is actually out of proportion on so many levels, physical play is dumbed down to pretty much as far as you can go without having insane backlash, players fall and get back up with the puck faster than the checker can recover from a hit, dekes are alot easier to pull off than old gen, goalies are dumbed down and in fact, their new "threat analysis" should be on milk cartoons because it has gone missing, do we really need the DSS to be so accountable? How much more advantages do forwards need to make this game "fun" ? I am speaking solely for myself and a few friends that used to enjoy this game, but for those of us that think hockey is alot more than scoring goals, this game is insanely boring now and very unrewarding. It does not have that hockey spirit to it in any way. Now it's just Hog 'N Fest 20. There isn't really any balance left in this game. I don't call it a game anymore, but a chore to play.

    I am sorry if you feel insulted as it isn't my intention. Just trying to give as clear as possible a picture about how I feel about this game and where I fear it is heading over the next few short years.

    EDIT***

    I should point out that when I play 6s, I take less than 1 tripping penalty per game on average. In club, I take about 1 trip every 2-3 games. And when I do trip, I know it is just before I get called. I know when and where I committed that mistake.

    In dropins I take about 1 call per game, sometimes more, sometimes less. Depends how lucky in the draw I get with the genetic pool of dropins.

    So in esssence, I can use DSS. Keyword here is can. Why is it I can use it, when in actuality I should be using it, and as much as possible?

    Calling this game a chore this year is dead on.
  • VeNOM2099
    2610 posts Member
    edited October 16
    NHLDev wrote: »
    I know this is off-topic, but WainGretSki is officially my favorite person on these forums.

    Wain is one of the best. One of the last remaining OG’s who weren’t permanent victims of the “ban-hammer” era here. Sadly, I think these forums have gotten less constructive due to that dark era around here. Oh well...

    If you want a good take on a topic, look to Venom, Wain, or BMH (although he seems to have gone quiet.) Sigz also provides an OG early EASHL perspective to most topics as well.

    I don’t get on here much as I’ve simply been enjoying offline NHL 20, and it’s pretty clear that the AI is never going to be respectable in the generation of games. The sliders and strategy adjustment I use have made 20 the most enjoyable EA NHL experience to date, and I see no reason to continue offering huge, detailed posts when nothing has been touched AI-wise (for the better I should add) in 10 years.

    Thanks dude, but I must say, even though you don't post a whole lot, you post well. I like your ideas and we are obviously on the same page. You should come around a bit more often and keep shooting out those good ideas.

    Speaking of good ideas, how about this one? I am pretty sure I have mentioned it here before, but anywho, here goes.

    How about if a relatively short push (say 2 seconds or less) of the RS initiated a body check, as it currently is, but if you actually hold the RS (more than 2 seconds) in a direction, it allows you to "carry" a player to the boards. Kind of like a moving tie-up. Would remove the need for another button, the triangle, to do this. Also, as it is, you can only tie-up an immobile opponent with the triangle. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense, at least, to me.

    In hockey, you don't always have to actually body check a player every single time to strip the puck or take him out of the play. Carrying him to the boards and pinning him there does the job just fine. Actually, it is used a whole lot more than body checks.

    Love this idea, Wain. The next big step for hitting in this game is eliminating the “board play” button and having “board play” happen dynamically. I agree that if you hold RS, your guy should continue to finish the check and carry the player into the boards. Physical stats and vitals can play a role in how successful your player is at 1. Carrying the guy to the boards and 2. Efficiently sealing the lane off and making sure your avatar is the first player back into the play.

    There’s so many times in this game right now where you clip a guy because you’re aiming a little ahead of them (proper technique for this type of hit) but you end up only making the guy stumble which actually allows him to get past you and have better body position.

    I’ve written a few long threads about making the hit stick more dynamic and useful, and I still think there’s so much untapped potential there. From little cross-check shoves to carrying guys into the boards like you suggested, I think there’s a lot they can do without changing the foundation of the controls.

    Id still like to see a non-modified RS be a stick movement and RB be the hit modifier as you naturally use your stick in hockey whereas you actually plan and brace to use your body.

    DSS risk/reward still needs a ton of work. You shouldn’t draw a trip while gliding with the puck. I also don’t think you should be called if the attacker skates into your stick that’s already extended out. If your stick is already extended and the stick has to clip a body part to touch the puck, simply don’t allow the stick contact. This should actually lead to more offense, less stops in play, and less frustrating use of DSS for defenders.

    As of now, you need to use DSS perfectly otherwise it’s a penalty which seems way too risky compared to real-life stick usage. Now, if I have it extended, they skate over it and I in-turn keep trying to sweep with DSS, that should draw the trip, but as of now, I have no chance to save myself as a pre-extended stick automatically trips someone gliding or someone .001 second into their puck-pickup.

    Clearly and I don’t have the perfect answer for DSS, but there’s gotta be a middle-ground between zero consequence 18 and the meta we have now. It is way too easy to draw a trip, especially with how abusable LT skating is.

    6s this year is surprisingly fun. I think it’s the best 6s we’ve had on this gen. Goalies who sit deep are punished, game seems very team-oriented, and quick puck movement is essential. Either DSS needs a balance or body checking needs a slight buff because checking is a tad weak and stick use is still too risky. Also, stick-lift seems to have taken a huge nerf which is a very bad meta move if you’re essentially not allowing any wiggle room to make a mistake with DSS. Pass interceptions are insane and definitely need a nerf when facing away from the play, but I do like how effective they are from in-front as it’s fixed some of the problem angles for 6s Dmen that forwards have been exploiting since last-gen.

    Despite all of this, I find 20 to still be the top dog for 6s. It seems like an improvement over 19, and RPM skating makes 19-20 automatically better than any TPS release. That being said, I still lack the time to play online making me mostly on offline player now. I’m loving the pass receptions, the goalie redirects, and the slightly better pass interceptions. This will be my last NHL game (and maybe even EA’s as well) for this generation and I’m relatively happy with the experience I’ll have.

    I like where you're going with this. Cool ideas.

    May I suggest that when your DSS is fully extended, and a carrier cuts into it, what I would like to see happen is just what would happen in real life: his legs push your stick out to one side rendering it useless. From there you have to release DSS to "reset" it and then decide if you want to risk extending it back out or not. Don't see the need for that to be an automatic penalty.

    Also, if they bring back pyhsical play as it was the first couple of weeks in 19, hogging and backskating would be terminated on the spot. Would be a non-issue.

    And I agree. The get away with murder pokechecking of 18 and the practical guaranteed tripping penalty in 19-20? There is absolutely a gap in there and I agree that's where the game should try to be at. I don't understand why it is so sensitive and risky for the sake of realism when they allow the incredibly fantastical skating you can pull off while abusing LT. Hardly any realism there when I consider that not a single NHL player of any era can pull off skating like that especially while shrugging off physical contact and retaining puck possession.

    We don't currently handle the physics of it but this is essentially how it works from a balance perspective. If your stick goes through one leg outside to in, we don't trip the player and it does render stick on stick and stick on puck useless as if the stick couldn't have got there due to the leg collision.

    We expect the player to realize this and let go of DSS which shouldn't trip players during the blend out either so if you let go, you should be good. If you continue to hold it where you swipe through both legs or keep it in a lane and take out both legs of a player or swipe from inside to out on a single leg, the player will trip.

    There are always things we can look at to improve but the mechanic is something people can learn and do well with. With a quick look at the current Online VS leaderboards, there are players holding teams to less than 1.5 goals a game and averaging less than 2 PIMs per game. Personally I am giving up just under 2 goals a game this year and I am averaging 1.6 PIMs per game. And with a quick browse of the WOC 6v6 leaderboard, there are players with less than 0.5 PIMS per game. Personally my PIMs per game while player locked in EASHL/OTP is 0.2 per game at the moment and a lot of those games are on defense.

    First of all, I thank you for responding. It really is appreciated.

    First paragraph:

    I do not completely agree that it is essentially the same from a balance perspective. I get why you are going there with your response, but I cannot completely agree. If a carrier decides to cut in and bully passed a defender's stick, his inside leg will just push the stick out of the way, even more so if the defender has only 1 hand on his stick. Physically, in that situation, a defender wouldn't even be able to touch the second skate, let alone trip the carrier.


    Second paragraph:

    The way dekes are set up in the game, their lateral accelerations are exaggerated and are faster than our reaction times for letting go of the DSS. Well, it is for me anyways. It is also very quick and easy to suddenly backskate towards a defender just as the gap is about to knock the puck away and get the tripping call.

    Third paragraph:

    I don't have access to those kinds of stats as you guys do, nor do I know in which way that info was pulled, but to me it doesn't tell a whole lot about defensive play. For all I know, those players could be spending a vast majority of their games in the offensive or neutral zones. Maybe they have really high puck possession times. I also do not see how it indicates in any way whatsoever if those players are even using the DSS, or which defensive tactics they are employing.

    And as it has been pointed out in the post above mine, the accountability of pokes and DSS is insanely high compared to the tuning in other areas and doesn't function very well when you add glass ankles into the mix. As it stands, attacking the puck or a carrier is simply not fun or rewarding in any way. Playing defense is absolutely boring right now and I feel a bit more useful than an interactive pylon. This is even more frustrating when I take into account the beta and first few weeks of 19. That to me was a far better balance for a team-oriented game and it seems like this was what you guys were striving for. It was the desired vision and direction of the game.

    Now, it seems all that matters is scoring goals and being able to go end-to-end with the puck when in reality this type of strategy would get you destroyed on ice in real life. Not a single team plays this way and with good reason. Yes, I know it is a video game, but shot aim is already higher than it should be, skating is faster and soooo much more fantastical that it is actually out of proportion on so many levels, physical play is dumbed down to pretty much as far as you can go without having insane backlash, players fall and get back up with the puck faster than the checker can recover from a hit, dekes are alot easier to pull off than old gen, goalies are dumbed down and in fact, their new "threat analysis" should be on milk cartoons because it has gone missing, do we really need the DSS to be so accountable? How much more advantages do forwards need to make this game "fun" ? I am speaking solely for myself and a few friends that used to enjoy this game, but for those of us that think hockey is alot more than scoring goals, this game is insanely boring now and very unrewarding. It does not have that hockey spirit to it in any way. Now it's just Hog 'N Fest 20. There isn't really any balance left in this game. I don't call it a game anymore, but a chore to play.

    I am sorry if you feel insulted as it isn't my intention. Just trying to give as clear as possible a picture about how I feel about this game and where I fear it is heading over the next few short years.

    EDIT***

    I should point out that when I play 6s, I take less than 1 tripping penalty per game on average. In club, I take about 1 trip every 2-3 games. And when I do trip, I know it is just before I get called. I know when and where I committed that mistake.

    In dropins I take about 1 call per game, sometimes more, sometimes less. Depends how lucky in the draw I get with the genetic pool of dropins.

    So in esssence, I can use DSS. Keyword here is can. Why is it I can use it, when in actuality I should be using it, and as much as possible?

    This pretty much sums it up nicely.

    It's not only a chore to play NHL 20 (or any of the previous NHL games), it's downright unpleasant. Both from a video game and sport perspective. I know it's not a "fair" comparison, but when you look at a game like NBA 2K20 it's just night and day. The amount of detail and just plain LOVE of the sport oozes out of every single one of its pores (sweat included).

    Even the "HUT" equivalent in that game, called MyTeam, is 100 million times more akin to actual Basketball than EA's NHL "arcadey" online cheese fest.

    But the real meat and potatoes of NBA 2K is in the offline career mode. If NHL even had just 10% of what this game has... We'd have something special. Every night I play 2K20, and every time I'm left happy having played it, win or lose. Because I feel like I'm getting what I wanted: playing basketball. Imagine that, playing a video game version of a sport to actually play like the sport is supposed to. I play F1 2019, I feel like I'm driving in the F1 circuit. I play NBA 2K, I feel like I'm playing in the NBA.

    I played EA's NHL for a while now, I've yet to have the same feeling playing, even when I win. I don't feel like I'm playing in the NHL or even basic H-O-C-K-E-Y. Who buys a sport game to NOT play the sport? I guess EA knows...
    YouTube: VeNOM3099
    Twitch: twitch.tv/venom3099

  • VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    I know this is off-topic, but WainGretSki is officially my favorite person on these forums.

    Wain is one of the best. One of the last remaining OG’s who weren’t permanent victims of the “ban-hammer” era here. Sadly, I think these forums have gotten less constructive due to that dark era around here. Oh well...

    If you want a good take on a topic, look to Venom, Wain, or BMH (although he seems to have gone quiet.) Sigz also provides an OG early EASHL perspective to most topics as well.

    I don’t get on here much as I’ve simply been enjoying offline NHL 20, and it’s pretty clear that the AI is never going to be respectable in the generation of games. The sliders and strategy adjustment I use have made 20 the most enjoyable EA NHL experience to date, and I see no reason to continue offering huge, detailed posts when nothing has been touched AI-wise (for the better I should add) in 10 years.

    Thanks dude, but I must say, even though you don't post a whole lot, you post well. I like your ideas and we are obviously on the same page. You should come around a bit more often and keep shooting out those good ideas.

    Speaking of good ideas, how about this one? I am pretty sure I have mentioned it here before, but anywho, here goes.

    How about if a relatively short push (say 2 seconds or less) of the RS initiated a body check, as it currently is, but if you actually hold the RS (more than 2 seconds) in a direction, it allows you to "carry" a player to the boards. Kind of like a moving tie-up. Would remove the need for another button, the triangle, to do this. Also, as it is, you can only tie-up an immobile opponent with the triangle. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense, at least, to me.

    In hockey, you don't always have to actually body check a player every single time to strip the puck or take him out of the play. Carrying him to the boards and pinning him there does the job just fine. Actually, it is used a whole lot more than body checks.

    Love this idea, Wain. The next big step for hitting in this game is eliminating the “board play” button and having “board play” happen dynamically. I agree that if you hold RS, your guy should continue to finish the check and carry the player into the boards. Physical stats and vitals can play a role in how successful your player is at 1. Carrying the guy to the boards and 2. Efficiently sealing the lane off and making sure your avatar is the first player back into the play.

    There’s so many times in this game right now where you clip a guy because you’re aiming a little ahead of them (proper technique for this type of hit) but you end up only making the guy stumble which actually allows him to get past you and have better body position.

    I’ve written a few long threads about making the hit stick more dynamic and useful, and I still think there’s so much untapped potential there. From little cross-check shoves to carrying guys into the boards like you suggested, I think there’s a lot they can do without changing the foundation of the controls.

    Id still like to see a non-modified RS be a stick movement and RB be the hit modifier as you naturally use your stick in hockey whereas you actually plan and brace to use your body.

    DSS risk/reward still needs a ton of work. You shouldn’t draw a trip while gliding with the puck. I also don’t think you should be called if the attacker skates into your stick that’s already extended out. If your stick is already extended and the stick has to clip a body part to touch the puck, simply don’t allow the stick contact. This should actually lead to more offense, less stops in play, and less frustrating use of DSS for defenders.

    As of now, you need to use DSS perfectly otherwise it’s a penalty which seems way too risky compared to real-life stick usage. Now, if I have it extended, they skate over it and I in-turn keep trying to sweep with DSS, that should draw the trip, but as of now, I have no chance to save myself as a pre-extended stick automatically trips someone gliding or someone .001 second into their puck-pickup.

    Clearly and I don’t have the perfect answer for DSS, but there’s gotta be a middle-ground between zero consequence 18 and the meta we have now. It is way too easy to draw a trip, especially with how abusable LT skating is.

    6s this year is surprisingly fun. I think it’s the best 6s we’ve had on this gen. Goalies who sit deep are punished, game seems very team-oriented, and quick puck movement is essential. Either DSS needs a balance or body checking needs a slight buff because checking is a tad weak and stick use is still too risky. Also, stick-lift seems to have taken a huge nerf which is a very bad meta move if you’re essentially not allowing any wiggle room to make a mistake with DSS. Pass interceptions are insane and definitely need a nerf when facing away from the play, but I do like how effective they are from in-front as it’s fixed some of the problem angles for 6s Dmen that forwards have been exploiting since last-gen.

    Despite all of this, I find 20 to still be the top dog for 6s. It seems like an improvement over 19, and RPM skating makes 19-20 automatically better than any TPS release. That being said, I still lack the time to play online making me mostly on offline player now. I’m loving the pass receptions, the goalie redirects, and the slightly better pass interceptions. This will be my last NHL game (and maybe even EA’s as well) for this generation and I’m relatively happy with the experience I’ll have.

    I like where you're going with this. Cool ideas.

    May I suggest that when your DSS is fully extended, and a carrier cuts into it, what I would like to see happen is just what would happen in real life: his legs push your stick out to one side rendering it useless. From there you have to release DSS to "reset" it and then decide if you want to risk extending it back out or not. Don't see the need for that to be an automatic penalty.

    Also, if they bring back pyhsical play as it was the first couple of weeks in 19, hogging and backskating would be terminated on the spot. Would be a non-issue.

    And I agree. The get away with murder pokechecking of 18 and the practical guaranteed tripping penalty in 19-20? There is absolutely a gap in there and I agree that's where the game should try to be at. I don't understand why it is so sensitive and risky for the sake of realism when they allow the incredibly fantastical skating you can pull off while abusing LT. Hardly any realism there when I consider that not a single NHL player of any era can pull off skating like that especially while shrugging off physical contact and retaining puck possession.

    We don't currently handle the physics of it but this is essentially how it works from a balance perspective. If your stick goes through one leg outside to in, we don't trip the player and it does render stick on stick and stick on puck useless as if the stick couldn't have got there due to the leg collision.

    We expect the player to realize this and let go of DSS which shouldn't trip players during the blend out either so if you let go, you should be good. If you continue to hold it where you swipe through both legs or keep it in a lane and take out both legs of a player or swipe from inside to out on a single leg, the player will trip.

    There are always things we can look at to improve but the mechanic is something people can learn and do well with. With a quick look at the current Online VS leaderboards, there are players holding teams to less than 1.5 goals a game and averaging less than 2 PIMs per game. Personally I am giving up just under 2 goals a game this year and I am averaging 1.6 PIMs per game. And with a quick browse of the WOC 6v6 leaderboard, there are players with less than 0.5 PIMS per game. Personally my PIMs per game while player locked in EASHL/OTP is 0.2 per game at the moment and a lot of those games are on defense.

    First of all, I thank you for responding. It really is appreciated.

    First paragraph:

    I do not completely agree that it is essentially the same from a balance perspective. I get why you are going there with your response, but I cannot completely agree. If a carrier decides to cut in and bully passed a defender's stick, his inside leg will just push the stick out of the way, even more so if the defender has only 1 hand on his stick. Physically, in that situation, a defender wouldn't even be able to touch the second skate, let alone trip the carrier.


    Second paragraph:

    The way dekes are set up in the game, their lateral accelerations are exaggerated and are faster than our reaction times for letting go of the DSS. Well, it is for me anyways. It is also very quick and easy to suddenly backskate towards a defender just as the gap is about to knock the puck away and get the tripping call.

    Third paragraph:

    I don't have access to those kinds of stats as you guys do, nor do I know in which way that info was pulled, but to me it doesn't tell a whole lot about defensive play. For all I know, those players could be spending a vast majority of their games in the offensive or neutral zones. Maybe they have really high puck possession times. I also do not see how it indicates in any way whatsoever if those players are even using the DSS, or which defensive tactics they are employing.

    And as it has been pointed out in the post above mine, the accountability of pokes and DSS is insanely high compared to the tuning in other areas and doesn't function very well when you add glass ankles into the mix. As it stands, attacking the puck or a carrier is simply not fun or rewarding in any way. Playing defense is absolutely boring right now and I feel a bit more useful than an interactive pylon. This is even more frustrating when I take into account the beta and first few weeks of 19. That to me was a far better balance for a team-oriented game and it seems like this was what you guys were striving for. It was the desired vision and direction of the game.

    Now, it seems all that matters is scoring goals and being able to go end-to-end with the puck when in reality this type of strategy would get you destroyed on ice in real life. Not a single team plays this way and with good reason. Yes, I know it is a video game, but shot aim is already higher than it should be, skating is faster and soooo much more fantastical that it is actually out of proportion on so many levels, physical play is dumbed down to pretty much as far as you can go without having insane backlash, players fall and get back up with the puck faster than the checker can recover from a hit, dekes are alot easier to pull off than old gen, goalies are dumbed down and in fact, their new "threat analysis" should be on milk cartoons because it has gone missing, do we really need the DSS to be so accountable? How much more advantages do forwards need to make this game "fun" ? I am speaking solely for myself and a few friends that used to enjoy this game, but for those of us that think hockey is alot more than scoring goals, this game is insanely boring now and very unrewarding. It does not have that hockey spirit to it in any way. Now it's just Hog 'N Fest 20. There isn't really any balance left in this game. I don't call it a game anymore, but a chore to play.

    I am sorry if you feel insulted as it isn't my intention. Just trying to give as clear as possible a picture about how I feel about this game and where I fear it is heading over the next few short years.

    EDIT***

    I should point out that when I play 6s, I take less than 1 tripping penalty per game on average. In club, I take about 1 trip every 2-3 games. And when I do trip, I know it is just before I get called. I know when and where I committed that mistake.

    In dropins I take about 1 call per game, sometimes more, sometimes less. Depends how lucky in the draw I get with the genetic pool of dropins.

    So in esssence, I can use DSS. Keyword here is can. Why is it I can use it, when in actuality I should be using it, and as much as possible?

    This pretty much sums it up nicely.

    It's not only a chore to play NHL 20 (or any of the previous NHL games), it's downright unpleasant. Both from a video game and sport perspective. I know it's not a "fair" comparison, but when you look at a game like NBA 2K20 it's just night and day. The amount of detail and just plain LOVE of the sport oozes out of every single one of its pores (sweat included).

    Even the "HUT" equivalent in that game, called MyTeam, is 100 million times more akin to actual Basketball than EA's NHL "arcadey" online cheese fest.

    But the real meat and potatoes of NBA 2K is in the offline career mode. If NHL even had just 10% of what this game has... We'd have something special. Every night I play 2K20, and every time I'm left happy having played it, win or lose. Because I feel like I'm getting what I wanted: playing basketball. Imagine that, playing a video game version of a sport to actually play like the sport is supposed to. I play F1 2019, I feel like I'm driving in the F1 circuit. I play NBA 2K, I feel like I'm playing in the NBA.

    I played EA's NHL for a while now, I've yet to have the same feeling playing, even when I win. I don't feel like I'm playing in the NHL or even basic H-O-C-K-E-Y. Who buys a sport game to NOT play the sport? I guess EA knows...

    Yea, well the NHL community is full of whiners that want the easiest way possible to score. I have never seen a community in any other game that complains this much and to the point where the studio caves in to their requests. Maybe because of all the games I have played, this one has the smallest player base. But my God, where do we draw the line? This year's game is an insult to me. I can't believe how dumbed down it has gotten.

    Remember the skill zone panic threads? Forwards are always using the same tactics and yet they complained that D found a way to adapt and beat their same cheese moves game in and game out. So what does the studio do? Make the AI pylons. Why would forwards adapt their game and find different ways to score? I mean, it's not like these are "elite" players, right?

    Gonna have to be honest here, and say EA is in large part responsible for this mentality. They have bred a culture where it is expected to be able to score on most of your shots. They have spoon fed forwards for years and sadly, the more you get, the more you want.

    As I said in another post, if physical play is dumbed down, the back door AI constantly abandons its post and player switching is sketchy at best, the solution to fixing skillzoning is not to dumb the AI even further, The solution is to fix player switching, poor AI programming, and actually make it rewarding to attack a player that twirls in the corner with no momentum. Had they done those 3 fixes, skillzoning would have been obliterated and useless.
  • VeNOM2099
    2610 posts Member
    edited October 16
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    I know this is off-topic, but WainGretSki is officially my favorite person on these forums.

    Wain is one of the best. One of the last remaining OG’s who weren’t permanent victims of the “ban-hammer” era here. Sadly, I think these forums have gotten less constructive due to that dark era around here. Oh well...

    If you want a good take on a topic, look to Venom, Wain, or BMH (although he seems to have gone quiet.) Sigz also provides an OG early EASHL perspective to most topics as well.

    I don’t get on here much as I’ve simply been enjoying offline NHL 20, and it’s pretty clear that the AI is never going to be respectable in the generation of games. The sliders and strategy adjustment I use have made 20 the most enjoyable EA NHL experience to date, and I see no reason to continue offering huge, detailed posts when nothing has been touched AI-wise (for the better I should add) in 10 years.

    Thanks dude, but I must say, even though you don't post a whole lot, you post well. I like your ideas and we are obviously on the same page. You should come around a bit more often and keep shooting out those good ideas.

    Speaking of good ideas, how about this one? I am pretty sure I have mentioned it here before, but anywho, here goes.

    How about if a relatively short push (say 2 seconds or less) of the RS initiated a body check, as it currently is, but if you actually hold the RS (more than 2 seconds) in a direction, it allows you to "carry" a player to the boards. Kind of like a moving tie-up. Would remove the need for another button, the triangle, to do this. Also, as it is, you can only tie-up an immobile opponent with the triangle. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense, at least, to me.

    In hockey, you don't always have to actually body check a player every single time to strip the puck or take him out of the play. Carrying him to the boards and pinning him there does the job just fine. Actually, it is used a whole lot more than body checks.

    Love this idea, Wain. The next big step for hitting in this game is eliminating the “board play” button and having “board play” happen dynamically. I agree that if you hold RS, your guy should continue to finish the check and carry the player into the boards. Physical stats and vitals can play a role in how successful your player is at 1. Carrying the guy to the boards and 2. Efficiently sealing the lane off and making sure your avatar is the first player back into the play.

    There’s so many times in this game right now where you clip a guy because you’re aiming a little ahead of them (proper technique for this type of hit) but you end up only making the guy stumble which actually allows him to get past you and have better body position.

    I’ve written a few long threads about making the hit stick more dynamic and useful, and I still think there’s so much untapped potential there. From little cross-check shoves to carrying guys into the boards like you suggested, I think there’s a lot they can do without changing the foundation of the controls.

    Id still like to see a non-modified RS be a stick movement and RB be the hit modifier as you naturally use your stick in hockey whereas you actually plan and brace to use your body.

    DSS risk/reward still needs a ton of work. You shouldn’t draw a trip while gliding with the puck. I also don’t think you should be called if the attacker skates into your stick that’s already extended out. If your stick is already extended and the stick has to clip a body part to touch the puck, simply don’t allow the stick contact. This should actually lead to more offense, less stops in play, and less frustrating use of DSS for defenders.

    As of now, you need to use DSS perfectly otherwise it’s a penalty which seems way too risky compared to real-life stick usage. Now, if I have it extended, they skate over it and I in-turn keep trying to sweep with DSS, that should draw the trip, but as of now, I have no chance to save myself as a pre-extended stick automatically trips someone gliding or someone .001 second into their puck-pickup.

    Clearly and I don’t have the perfect answer for DSS, but there’s gotta be a middle-ground between zero consequence 18 and the meta we have now. It is way too easy to draw a trip, especially with how abusable LT skating is.

    6s this year is surprisingly fun. I think it’s the best 6s we’ve had on this gen. Goalies who sit deep are punished, game seems very team-oriented, and quick puck movement is essential. Either DSS needs a balance or body checking needs a slight buff because checking is a tad weak and stick use is still too risky. Also, stick-lift seems to have taken a huge nerf which is a very bad meta move if you’re essentially not allowing any wiggle room to make a mistake with DSS. Pass interceptions are insane and definitely need a nerf when facing away from the play, but I do like how effective they are from in-front as it’s fixed some of the problem angles for 6s Dmen that forwards have been exploiting since last-gen.

    Despite all of this, I find 20 to still be the top dog for 6s. It seems like an improvement over 19, and RPM skating makes 19-20 automatically better than any TPS release. That being said, I still lack the time to play online making me mostly on offline player now. I’m loving the pass receptions, the goalie redirects, and the slightly better pass interceptions. This will be my last NHL game (and maybe even EA’s as well) for this generation and I’m relatively happy with the experience I’ll have.

    I like where you're going with this. Cool ideas.

    May I suggest that when your DSS is fully extended, and a carrier cuts into it, what I would like to see happen is just what would happen in real life: his legs push your stick out to one side rendering it useless. From there you have to release DSS to "reset" it and then decide if you want to risk extending it back out or not. Don't see the need for that to be an automatic penalty.

    Also, if they bring back pyhsical play as it was the first couple of weeks in 19, hogging and backskating would be terminated on the spot. Would be a non-issue.

    And I agree. The get away with murder pokechecking of 18 and the practical guaranteed tripping penalty in 19-20? There is absolutely a gap in there and I agree that's where the game should try to be at. I don't understand why it is so sensitive and risky for the sake of realism when they allow the incredibly fantastical skating you can pull off while abusing LT. Hardly any realism there when I consider that not a single NHL player of any era can pull off skating like that especially while shrugging off physical contact and retaining puck possession.

    We don't currently handle the physics of it but this is essentially how it works from a balance perspective. If your stick goes through one leg outside to in, we don't trip the player and it does render stick on stick and stick on puck useless as if the stick couldn't have got there due to the leg collision.

    We expect the player to realize this and let go of DSS which shouldn't trip players during the blend out either so if you let go, you should be good. If you continue to hold it where you swipe through both legs or keep it in a lane and take out both legs of a player or swipe from inside to out on a single leg, the player will trip.

    There are always things we can look at to improve but the mechanic is something people can learn and do well with. With a quick look at the current Online VS leaderboards, there are players holding teams to less than 1.5 goals a game and averaging less than 2 PIMs per game. Personally I am giving up just under 2 goals a game this year and I am averaging 1.6 PIMs per game. And with a quick browse of the WOC 6v6 leaderboard, there are players with less than 0.5 PIMS per game. Personally my PIMs per game while player locked in EASHL/OTP is 0.2 per game at the moment and a lot of those games are on defense.

    First of all, I thank you for responding. It really is appreciated.

    First paragraph:

    I do not completely agree that it is essentially the same from a balance perspective. I get why you are going there with your response, but I cannot completely agree. If a carrier decides to cut in and bully passed a defender's stick, his inside leg will just push the stick out of the way, even more so if the defender has only 1 hand on his stick. Physically, in that situation, a defender wouldn't even be able to touch the second skate, let alone trip the carrier.


    Second paragraph:

    The way dekes are set up in the game, their lateral accelerations are exaggerated and are faster than our reaction times for letting go of the DSS. Well, it is for me anyways. It is also very quick and easy to suddenly backskate towards a defender just as the gap is about to knock the puck away and get the tripping call.

    Third paragraph:

    I don't have access to those kinds of stats as you guys do, nor do I know in which way that info was pulled, but to me it doesn't tell a whole lot about defensive play. For all I know, those players could be spending a vast majority of their games in the offensive or neutral zones. Maybe they have really high puck possession times. I also do not see how it indicates in any way whatsoever if those players are even using the DSS, or which defensive tactics they are employing.

    And as it has been pointed out in the post above mine, the accountability of pokes and DSS is insanely high compared to the tuning in other areas and doesn't function very well when you add glass ankles into the mix. As it stands, attacking the puck or a carrier is simply not fun or rewarding in any way. Playing defense is absolutely boring right now and I feel a bit more useful than an interactive pylon. This is even more frustrating when I take into account the beta and first few weeks of 19. That to me was a far better balance for a team-oriented game and it seems like this was what you guys were striving for. It was the desired vision and direction of the game.

    Now, it seems all that matters is scoring goals and being able to go end-to-end with the puck when in reality this type of strategy would get you destroyed on ice in real life. Not a single team plays this way and with good reason. Yes, I know it is a video game, but shot aim is already higher than it should be, skating is faster and soooo much more fantastical that it is actually out of proportion on so many levels, physical play is dumbed down to pretty much as far as you can go without having insane backlash, players fall and get back up with the puck faster than the checker can recover from a hit, dekes are alot easier to pull off than old gen, goalies are dumbed down and in fact, their new "threat analysis" should be on milk cartoons because it has gone missing, do we really need the DSS to be so accountable? How much more advantages do forwards need to make this game "fun" ? I am speaking solely for myself and a few friends that used to enjoy this game, but for those of us that think hockey is alot more than scoring goals, this game is insanely boring now and very unrewarding. It does not have that hockey spirit to it in any way. Now it's just Hog 'N Fest 20. There isn't really any balance left in this game. I don't call it a game anymore, but a chore to play.

    I am sorry if you feel insulted as it isn't my intention. Just trying to give as clear as possible a picture about how I feel about this game and where I fear it is heading over the next few short years.

    EDIT***

    I should point out that when I play 6s, I take less than 1 tripping penalty per game on average. In club, I take about 1 trip every 2-3 games. And when I do trip, I know it is just before I get called. I know when and where I committed that mistake.

    In dropins I take about 1 call per game, sometimes more, sometimes less. Depends how lucky in the draw I get with the genetic pool of dropins.

    So in esssence, I can use DSS. Keyword here is can. Why is it I can use it, when in actuality I should be using it, and as much as possible?

    This pretty much sums it up nicely.

    It's not only a chore to play NHL 20 (or any of the previous NHL games), it's downright unpleasant. Both from a video game and sport perspective. I know it's not a "fair" comparison, but when you look at a game like NBA 2K20 it's just night and day. The amount of detail and just plain LOVE of the sport oozes out of every single one of its pores (sweat included).

    Even the "HUT" equivalent in that game, called MyTeam, is 100 million times more akin to actual Basketball than EA's NHL "arcadey" online cheese fest.

    But the real meat and potatoes of NBA 2K is in the offline career mode. If NHL even had just 10% of what this game has... We'd have something special. Every night I play 2K20, and every time I'm left happy having played it, win or lose. Because I feel like I'm getting what I wanted: playing basketball. Imagine that, playing a video game version of a sport to actually play like the sport is supposed to. I play F1 2019, I feel like I'm driving in the F1 circuit. I play NBA 2K, I feel like I'm playing in the NBA.

    I played EA's NHL for a while now, I've yet to have the same feeling playing, even when I win. I don't feel like I'm playing in the NHL or even basic H-O-C-K-E-Y. Who buys a sport game to NOT play the sport? I guess EA knows...

    Yea, well the NHL community is full of whiners that want the easiest way possible to score. I have never seen a community in any other game that complains this much and to the point where the studio caves in to their requests. Maybe because of all the games I have played, this one has the smallest player base. But my God, where do we draw the line? This year's game is an insult to me. I can't believe how dumbed down it has gotten.

    Remember the skill zone panic threads? Forwards are always using the same tactics and yet they complained that D found a way to adapt and beat their same cheese moves game in and game out. So what does the studio do? Make the AI pylons. Why would forwards adapt their game and find different ways to score? I mean, it's not like these are "elite" players, right?

    Gonna have to be honest here, and say EA is in large part responsible for this mentality. They have bred a culture where it is expected to be able to score on most of your shots. They have spoon fed forwards for years and sadly, the more you get, the more you want.

    As I said in another post, if physical play is dumbed down, the back door AI constantly abandons its post and player switching is sketchy at best, the solution to fixing skillzoning is not to dumb the AI even further, The solution is to fix player switching, poor AI programming, and actually make it rewarding to attack a player that twirls in the corner with no momentum. Had they done those 3 fixes, skillzoning would have been obliterated and useless.

    I mean look, 2K20 is not a perfect game. There are problems and bugs and such. I'm not blind. But at it's core, it's basketball. Everything from the presentation to the actual gameplay is just trying its best to be authentic to the game and the culture that surrounds the game of hoops, whether it's street ball or professional NBA. Every mode has it's own flavour and that's what, IMO, makes it great. Yeah, people will complain about the casino games 2K added this year, and I gotta say, it's a little obnoxious, but I don't really mind it's in there. Why? Because I can play basketball in my NBA game! As long as I can do that, I'm happy.

    NHL is so... bland and contrived. Every mode you play feels the same. The same brand of non-hockey permeates this series and it has for a long time. The amount of control I have over my actions are also very limited compared to a game like NBA 2K. In Chel, almost everything about playing is automated; Auto-pokes, auto-passing, auto-aiming, auto-blocks, auto-saves. You mean I gotta sit there in net, challenge the shooter and be in perfect position but HOPE I don't get sniped because the game decided I just HAD to be sniped because I have no control over my actions? While in NBA 2K20 if I take the ball, dribble, do a cross-over, fake a shot, spin and take a fade away J, not only do I have to perform every SINGLE action I just described using a button or input combination, but I also have to time my shot release to actually be able to score... What's this? A videogame taking actual skill? Not only skill, but knowledge because I have to know when to perform those actions to be successful? Is this real life???

    And I agree about skillzoning! Heck, if they only ever fixed player switching, the dreaded "skillzoning" (IE: actual Defense) wouldn't be such a nightmare for "top players" anymore. But we're never gonna have anything like that. Because EA doesn't listen to actual people like us. We don't bring them enough sales with our talk of "hockey 101" and "knowledge over cheese". We don't bring them any twitch viewers with our Dot or Stick pack openings. :p
    YouTube: VeNOM3099
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  • So, I bought 20, the first NHL that I've bought since 16. My main concerns up until this point have been the usual stuff. Lack of roster share and editing, lack of separation between players, not updating PbP names, commentary and so on. The usual stuff that you have heard a million times. The game actually took steps back on PS4 compared to the PS3 versions.

    Having played 20 for a couple of weeks now I must admit that I'm willing to forget all about the stuff above, the cosmetics if you will, if EA does something to improve the AI. This thread contains some of the best feedback that EA could hope for if they really wanted to improve the game and making it look somewhat like the sport it tries to replicate. In the state that it is right now it is more work than fun to play.

    Don't know anything about programming but I would place a bet that hockey is far more difficult to program than a more static game that is played in a slower pace, like baseball or even basketball. Even still, throw us a bone here and at least adress the issues that people posted here. It's right there for everyone to see.

    As a pure offline Franchise player I appreciate the effort with the new scouting system, the coaches and so on. I would really like roster sharing, better customisation options and all that stuff too, to me it is a hygiene factor in a sports game 2019.

    But...even with all that in place I dont think that I'm going to buy another EA NHL game before the biggest flaws in the AI are corrected and the game is once again a fun game of hockey rather than 20% of fun and the rest frustration. Guess time will tell if that will happen.
  • Chicken_Swede76
    4 posts New member
    edited October 16
    > @IWDTCG said:
    > Can we get back on topic I'm interested in an answer to the topic especially since EA staff are active in this topic. Why does the AI make that play?

    This is a good question and I'm also curious. Honestly curious, not trying to be a jerk or claim to know anything about how to program a realistical AI for a hockey game.
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