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NHL 20 Content Update October 25th


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Ice Tilt/Dynamic difficulty adjustment - Mega thread

Replies

  • EA_Roger wrote: »
    headup81 wrote: »
    The best was when a Madden dev admitted that’s how Madden works a few years ago on their forums and then retracted his post. Wish I took a screen shot. Someone out there must remember this or has proof. Was funny anyway.

    I touched base on this last year with you, this isn't true and if it were I would be aware of it. Not only that there would be proof of it somewhere, you can bet that players would have screenshot that in a heartbeat, it would on Reddit, YouTube & Twitter.

    Is true sorry. It may have been longer ago than I thought but it 100 percent happened
  • jake19ny
    688 posts Member
    edited October 15
    I think I have a theory on all of this. Everyone’s DDA questions and my random AI question.

    The default difficulty for online play is allegedly All-Star. What if there is a problem that EA is not even aware of that causes the difficulty level to change randomly for your team.

    This year MLB the Show had similar issues where moments were not playing at the advertised difficulty level and another issue where offline slider settings carried over into online play. This is not a far fetched theory.

    Play a vs CPU game on rookie. Look familiar? The CPU AI is useless, wandering, and braindead. The goalies let in everything.....sound familiar?
    Despite your CPU opponent having NHL caliber players and stars they aren’t playing to the level they are rated at....sound familiar also? Despite the CPU opponent having good speed on the team they seem way slower on rookie....that definitely looks familiar.
    You can easily dominate puck possession and puck control when playing the CPU on rookie....bet you’ve seen that before online also.

    Games where your passes go nowhere where you aimed them? Rookie....shots from right in front of the net going wide? Rookie....

    Play as an AHL team against a CPU opponent as a really good NHL team on rookie. You will be faster, stronger, and more dominant on puck control with that silver team over that gold NHL squad. This is definitely familiar....

    Almost everything we complain about resembles playing the CPU on rookie. I wonder if by some error the difficulty level of teams randomly change so one team on ALL-Star is going to have those advantages we complain about and the team on rookie is going to feel like DDA is responsible or like me wonder why my AI plays great one game useless the next.

    Just throwing it out there because there is definitely an explanation for what’s happening and it’s not “get good”
    Post edited by jake19ny on
  • Sinbin I know you love EA and all but in 2019 with micro transactions there is zero chance there isn’t any Dda in the game. I’m not sure if you play other games in other genres but this type of mentality is the norm. Why would EA (who are completely innocent and who never employ unethical tactics to manipulate little kids into spending real money on pointless in game items) be any different.
  • jake19ny wrote: »
    I think I have a theory on all of this. Everyone’s DDA questions and my random AI question.

    The default difficulty for online play is allegedly All-Star. What if there is a problem that EA is not even aware of that causes the difficulty level to change randomly for your team.

    This year MLB the Show had similar issues where moments were not playing at the advertised difficulty level and another issue where offline slider settings carried over into online play. This is not a far fetched theory.

    Play a vs CPU game on rookie. Look familiar? The CPU AI is useless, wandering, and braindead. The goalies let in everything.....sound familiar?
    Despite your CPU opponent having NHL caliber players and stars they aren’t playing to the level they are rated at....sound familiar also? Despite the CPU opponent having good speed on the team they seem way slower on rookie....that definitely looks familiar.
    You can easily dominate puck possession and puck control when playing the CPU on rookie....bet you’ve seen that before online also.

    Play as an AHL team against a CPU opponent as a really good NHL team on rookie. You will be faster, stronger, and more dominant on puck control with that silver team over that gold NHL squad. This is definitely familiar....

    Almost everything we complain about resembles playing the CPU on rookie. I wonder if by some error the difficulty level of teams randomly change so one team on ALL-Star is going to have those advantages we complain about and the team on rookie is going to feel like DDA is responsible or like me wonder why my AI plays great one game useless the next.

    Just throwing it out there because there is definitely an explanation for what’s happening and it’s not “get good”

    Hmm, interesting theory indeed. It is in theory, very possible. Could be you are on to something.
  • jake19ny wrote: »
    I think I have a theory on all of this. Everyone’s DDA questions and my random AI question.

    The default difficulty for online play is allegedly All-Star. What if there is a problem that EA is not even aware of that causes the difficulty level to change randomly for your team.

    This year MLB the Show had similar issues where moments were not playing at the advertised difficulty level and another issue where offline slider settings carried over into online play. This is not a far fetched theory.

    Play a vs CPU game on rookie. Look familiar? The CPU AI is useless, wandering, and braindead. The goalies let in everything.....sound familiar?
    Despite your CPU opponent having NHL caliber players and stars they aren’t playing to the level they are rated at....sound familiar also? Despite the CPU opponent having good speed on the team they seem way slower on rookie....that definitely looks familiar.
    You can easily dominate puck possession and puck control when playing the CPU on rookie....bet you’ve seen that before online also.

    Play as an AHL team against a CPU opponent as a really good NHL team on rookie. You will be faster, stronger, and more dominant on puck control with that silver team over that gold NHL squad. This is definitely familiar....

    Almost everything we complain about resembles playing the CPU on rookie. I wonder if by some error the difficulty level of teams randomly change so one team on ALL-Star is going to have those advantages we complain about and the team on rookie is going to feel like DDA is responsible or like me wonder why my AI plays great one game useless the next.

    Just throwing it out there because there is definitely an explanation for what’s happening and it’s not “get good”

    Hmm, interesting theory indeed. It is in theory, very possible. Could be you are on to something.

    Similar to my thoughts with superstar and all star difficulty being swapped, based on their behaviour in game. There's definitely something whacky going on, and strategies don't seem to be the explanation, as some are suggesting. If it were, there wouldn't be the discrepancy between how the ai acts right out of the gate.

    Doesn't fifa display the users team strategies on squad battles? That may be a step in trying to determine the issue, if we could also see this. Would at least allow us to adjust our strategy system from the start to counter what they have.

    Keep in mind this is purely for offline squad battles.
  • jake19ny wrote: »
    I think I have a theory on all of this. Everyone’s DDA questions and my random AI question.

    The default difficulty for online play is allegedly All-Star. What if there is a problem that EA is not even aware of that causes the difficulty level to change randomly for your team.

    This year MLB the Show had similar issues where moments were not playing at the advertised difficulty level and another issue where offline slider settings carried over into online play. This is not a far fetched theory.

    Play a vs CPU game on rookie. Look familiar? The CPU AI is useless, wandering, and braindead. The goalies let in everything.....sound familiar?
    Despite your CPU opponent having NHL caliber players and stars they aren’t playing to the level they are rated at....sound familiar also? Despite the CPU opponent having good speed on the team they seem way slower on rookie....that definitely looks familiar.
    You can easily dominate puck possession and puck control when playing the CPU on rookie....bet you’ve seen that before online also.

    Play as an AHL team against a CPU opponent as a really good NHL team on rookie. You will be faster, stronger, and more dominant on puck control with that silver team over that gold NHL squad. This is definitely familiar....

    Almost everything we complain about resembles playing the CPU on rookie. I wonder if by some error the difficulty level of teams randomly change so one team on ALL-Star is going to have those advantages we complain about and the team on rookie is going to feel like DDA is responsible or like me wonder why my AI plays great one game useless the next.

    Just throwing it out there because there is definitely an explanation for what’s happening and it’s not “get good”

    Hmm, interesting theory indeed. It is in theory, very possible. Could be you are on to something.

    Similar to my thoughts with superstar and all star difficulty being swapped, based on their behaviour in game. There's definitely something whacky going on, and strategies don't seem to be the explanation, as some are suggesting. If it were, there wouldn't be the discrepancy between how the ai acts right out of the gate.

    Doesn't fifa display the users team strategies on squad battles? That may be a step in trying to determine the issue, if we could also see this. Would at least allow us to adjust our strategy system from the start to counter what they have.

    Keep in mind this is purely for offline squad battles.

    Yea I don't think strats are an explanation either because even when you change your strats, the AI still does its own thing for the most part. It hardly changes anything in the way they play.

    The more I think about it, the more that theory is percolating in my mind. It would totally make sense and explain why your AI is brain dead one game, and stellar the next.

    We've all seen it countless times before, where one goalie plays the game of his life while the other looks like he's half blind.
  • EA_Roger
    1469 posts Community Manager
    This thread has been overall constructive, please don't derail it with sarcastic/baiting posts. I've removed a couple of replies from here, if you have any questions please DM me.

    Thanks.
  • jake19ny
    688 posts Member
    edited October 16
    jake19ny wrote: »
    I think I have a theory on all of this. Everyone’s DDA questions and my random AI question.

    The default difficulty for online play is allegedly All-Star. What if there is a problem that EA is not even aware of that causes the difficulty level to change randomly for your team.

    This year MLB the Show had similar issues where moments were not playing at the advertised difficulty level and another issue where offline slider settings carried over into online play. This is not a far fetched theory.

    Play a vs CPU game on rookie. Look familiar? The CPU AI is useless, wandering, and braindead. The goalies let in everything.....sound familiar?
    Despite your CPU opponent having NHL caliber players and stars they aren’t playing to the level they are rated at....sound familiar also? Despite the CPU opponent having good speed on the team they seem way slower on rookie....that definitely looks familiar.
    You can easily dominate puck possession and puck control when playing the CPU on rookie....bet you’ve seen that before online also.

    Play as an AHL team against a CPU opponent as a really good NHL team on rookie. You will be faster, stronger, and more dominant on puck control with that silver team over that gold NHL squad. This is definitely familiar....

    Almost everything we complain about resembles playing the CPU on rookie. I wonder if by some error the difficulty level of teams randomly change so one team on ALL-Star is going to have those advantages we complain about and the team on rookie is going to feel like DDA is responsible or like me wonder why my AI plays great one game useless the next.

    Just throwing it out there because there is definitely an explanation for what’s happening and it’s not “get good”

    Hmm, interesting theory indeed. It is in theory, very possible. Could be you are on to something.

    Similar to my thoughts with superstar and all star difficulty being swapped, based on their behaviour in game. There's definitely something whacky going on, and strategies don't seem to be the explanation, as some are suggesting. If it were, there wouldn't be the discrepancy between how the ai acts right out of the gate.

    Doesn't fifa display the users team strategies on squad battles? That may be a step in trying to determine the issue, if we could also see this. Would at least allow us to adjust our strategy system from the start to counter what they have.

    Keep in mind this is purely for offline squad battles.

    Yea I don't think strats are an explanation either because even when you change your strats, the AI still does its own thing for the most part. It hardly changes anything in the way they play.

    The more I think about it, the more that theory is percolating in my mind. It would totally make sense and explain why your AI is brain dead one game, and stellar the next.

    We've all seen it countless times before, where one goalie plays the game of his life while the other looks like he's half blind.

    The more I play the more my theory makes sense. Some games regardless of how good my opponent is I can just totally have my way because his AI is useless and he’s basically out there all alone...other games I’m destroyed no matter how good I play because my AI works against me rather than with me....other games we both have bad AI or good AI.

    The idea that a programming bug randomly changes the difficulty level your team plays on from the default All-Star to either Superstar, Pro, Semi-Pro, or Rookie would totally explain absolutely every single thing everyone sees, feels, experiences, and complains about.......everything.
  • jake19ny wrote: »

    The idea that a programming bug randomly changes the difficulty level your team plays on from the default All-Star to either Superstar, Pro, Semi-Pro, or Rookie would totally explain absolutely every single thing everyone sees, feels, experiences, and complains about.......everything.

    I was playing Three's and definitely notice a difference in difficulties and the theory of them being flipped. First game, I played against Edmonton Alumni on All Star. There was nothing I could do to stop them from scoring at odd angles or the skating through my players without losing the puck.

    Then I tried Superstar and what a difference. Now, the "rubber band AI" was still there, but I did manage to win a few games. The opposing team didn't feel so fast or unstoppable.

    Now, something else I noticed playing the Edmonton Alumni. I unlocked Gretzky to use on my team. Playing against him he was a beast. However, when he was placed on my team, he played like an above average Joe. No fancy skills like he had and his speed was sluggish.

    When you play against a player like Gretzky and he tears it up on the ice, then you put him on your team and he suddenly can't puck handle or skate well, there is something wrong. And I should add I play position lock so he is controlled by the CPU in both scenarios.
  • Steven5470 wrote: »
    jake19ny wrote: »

    The idea that a programming bug randomly changes the difficulty level your team plays on from the default All-Star to either Superstar, Pro, Semi-Pro, or Rookie would totally explain absolutely every single thing everyone sees, feels, experiences, and complains about.......everything.

    I was playing Three's and definitely notice a difference in difficulties and the theory of them being flipped. First game, I played against Edmonton Alumni on All Star. There was nothing I could do to stop them from scoring at odd angles or the skating through my players without losing the puck.

    Then I tried Superstar and what a difference. Now, the "rubber band AI" was still there, but I did manage to win a few games. The opposing team didn't feel so fast or unstoppable.

    Now, something else I noticed playing the Edmonton Alumni. I unlocked Gretzky to use on my team. Playing against him he was a beast. However, when he was placed on my team, he played like an above average Joe. No fancy skills like he had and his speed was sluggish.

    When you play against a player like Gretzky and he tears it up on the ice, then you put him on your team and he suddenly can't puck handle or skate well, there is something wrong. And I should add I play position lock so he is controlled by the CPU in both scenarios.

    Not just that.

    I've been playing alot more EASHL 3s lately and of course sooner or later someone has an AI on their team. When the AI gets a penalty shot, sometimes they actually pull off some really nice dekes and score, other times, they look clueless and hardly do anything except for a terrible shot with no angle.

    Safe to assume, the deke is from a higher difficulty AI vs the one who can't deke to save his life. I am sure many of you have witnessed it yourselves.
  • Steven5470 wrote: »
    jake19ny wrote: »

    The idea that a programming bug randomly changes the difficulty level your team plays on from the default All-Star to either Superstar, Pro, Semi-Pro, or Rookie would totally explain absolutely every single thing everyone sees, feels, experiences, and complains about.......everything.

    I was playing Three's and definitely notice a difference in difficulties and the theory of them being flipped. First game, I played against Edmonton Alumni on All Star. There was nothing I could do to stop them from scoring at odd angles or the skating through my players without losing the puck.

    Then I tried Superstar and what a difference. Now, the "rubber band AI" was still there, but I did manage to win a few games. The opposing team didn't feel so fast or unstoppable.

    Now, something else I noticed playing the Edmonton Alumni. I unlocked Gretzky to use on my team. Playing against him he was a beast. However, when he was placed on my team, he played like an above average Joe. No fancy skills like he had and his speed was sluggish.

    When you play against a player like Gretzky and he tears it up on the ice, then you put him on your team and he suddenly can't puck handle or skate well, there is something wrong. And I should add I play position lock so he is controlled by the CPU in both scenarios.

    Not just that.

    I've been playing alot more EASHL 3s lately and of course sooner or later someone has an AI on their team. When the AI gets a penalty shot, sometimes they actually pull off some really nice dekes and score, other times, they look clueless and hardly do anything except for a terrible shot with no angle.

    Safe to assume, the deke is from a higher difficulty AI vs the one who can't deke to save his life. I am sure many of you have witnessed it yourselves.

    You mean when the ai just skates unto the goalie in a straight line, and doesn't even attempt to move their stick?

    VS Datsyuk on steroids when they feel like it
  • Taste-D-Rainbow
    2395 posts Member
    edited October 16
    Played Subbantor last night on allstar with my 87 team. The 89 team is relatively average except for the first line but whenever that first line was out it was almost a guaranteed goal VS my 82 Fleury. Won 10-8 which some Pro Gamers would call a good game! Team overalls were on par so the game played well.

    Not screaming bad programming but it ticks me off how the opponent CPU instantly cashes in on every single rebound but my AI teammates will constant overskate loose pucks instead of hammering them home.
  • Played Subbantor last night on allstar with my 87 team. The 89 team is relatively average except for the first line but whenever that first line was out it was almost a guaranteed goal VS my 82 Fleury. Won 10-8 which some Pro Gamers would call a good game! Team overalls were on par so the game played well.

    Not screaming bad programming but it ticks me off how the opponent CPU instantly cashes in on every single rebound but my AI teammates will constant overskate loose pucks instead of hammering them home.

    Beat that team 7-3 with my 89 squad. Was on superstar, didn't feel overly challenging.

    Not nearly as challenging as the 70 ovr squad i played as the first opponent lol. The lower the opponent overall, the harder the game will be to win. It's backwards.
  • Steven5470 wrote: »
    jake19ny wrote: »

    The idea that a programming bug randomly changes the difficulty level your team plays on from the default All-Star to either Superstar, Pro, Semi-Pro, or Rookie would totally explain absolutely every single thing everyone sees, feels, experiences, and complains about.......everything.

    I was playing Three's and definitely notice a difference in difficulties and the theory of them being flipped. First game, I played against Edmonton Alumni on All Star. There was nothing I could do to stop them from scoring at odd angles or the skating through my players without losing the puck.

    Then I tried Superstar and what a difference. Now, the "rubber band AI" was still there, but I did manage to win a few games. The opposing team didn't feel so fast or unstoppable.

    Now, something else I noticed playing the Edmonton Alumni. I unlocked Gretzky to use on my team. Playing against him he was a beast. However, when he was placed on my team, he played like an above average Joe. No fancy skills like he had and his speed was sluggish.

    When you play against a player like Gretzky and he tears it up on the ice, then you put him on your team and he suddenly can't puck handle or skate well, there is something wrong. And I should add I play position lock so he is controlled by the CPU in both scenarios.

    Not just that.

    I've been playing alot more EASHL 3s lately and of course sooner or later someone has an AI on their team. When the AI gets a penalty shot, sometimes they actually pull off some really nice dekes and score, other times, they look clueless and hardly do anything except for a terrible shot with no angle.

    Safe to assume, the deke is from a higher difficulty AI vs the one who can't deke to save his life. I am sure many of you have witnessed it yourselves.

    You mean when the ai just skates unto the goalie in a straight line, and doesn't even attempt to move their stick?

    VS Datsyuk on steroids when they feel like it

    Slightly exaggerated, but yea. That's it. Only slightly exaggerated lol.
  • EA_Roger wrote: »
    This thread has been overall constructive, please don't derail it with sarcastic/baiting posts. I've removed a couple of replies from here, if you have any questions please DM me.

    Thanks.

    Thank you EA_Roger for dedicating my original post to all of this, which admittedly & apologetically was somewhat baiting sarcasm at the time. I agree, you’ve moderated the discussion throughout this thread to be constructive & intuitive on an issue as controversial or inconclusive as religion apparently. Though we all won’t ever fully understand or prove or even agree upon this matter as we individually perceive it to be, I’m glad you have allowed us the platform to try. We appreciate that much, anyways, I’m sure that’s something to be said for all regardless of our stance.

  • Don’t take it like an insult, but come on people. You really need to learn how to loose without blaming EA or the AI. Like in real life (any sports or other type of competitions), you have a loser and a winner. Sometimes, you will do everything in your power, it won’t work and your opponent will get cheap goals and you will loose. That’s is just how life work.

    I know it is frustrating when it happens but the only thing you can do about it, is to analyze what happened and try to do better the next time.

    The game is just mimicking that randomness which can be seen very often in real life. You see everyday really weak team beating super powerful and talented teams. It can be because they were underestimated or many other things (fatigue, energy boost, etc...) Why do you think players/athletes very often cry after loosing in finale? It is because you gave everything and it still didn’t work.

    If we go with your theory of how it should be, we would end up with an undynamic robotic game. People would always score the same way and the outcome of the game would be almost always dictated by the teams overalls. People playing a lot or spending more money, would always win against casual gamers just because they have better players. I might be wrong, but I am pretty sure you don’t want that.

    And finally, you shouldn’t count on your AI to save you. They are just there to fill the gap and move the players that you cannot move. As in real life again, your teammates might not do what you would have done in the same situation.
  • Don’t take it like an insult, but come on people. You really need to learn how to loose without blaming EA or the AI. Like in real life (any sports or other type of competitions), you have a loser and a winner. Sometimes, you will do everything in your power, it won’t work and your opponent will get cheap goals and you will loose. That’s is just how life work.

    I know it is frustrating when it happens but the only thing you can do about it, is to analyze what happened and try to do better the next time.

    The game is just mimicking that randomness which can be seen very often in real life. You see everyday really weak team beating super powerful and talented teams. It can be because they were underestimated or many other things (fatigue, energy boost, etc...) Why do you think players/athletes very often cry after loosing in finale? It is because you gave everything and it still didn’t work.

    If we go with your theory of how it should be, we would end up with an undynamic robotic game. People would always score the same way and the outcome of the game would be almost always dictated by the teams overalls. People playing a lot or spending more money, would always win against casual gamers just because they have better players. I might be wrong, but I am pretty sure you don’t want that.

    And finally, you shouldn’t count on your AI to save you. They are just there to fill the gap and move the players that you cannot move. As in real life again, your teammates might not do what you would have done in the same situation.

    Problem is it happens every Game, I have no problem to lose a game with bad bounces but if the bad bounces goes every game against you and no bad bounces for you the ther is a clear disadvantage and its clear the connect. When you play a FIN or SWE Player from Germany its near impossible to win. EA needs Servers in/near every country. The the field is equal and skill will decide most games and not the better connect. It has nothing to do with randomness.
  • jake19ny
    688 posts Member
    edited October 18
    Don’t take it like an insult, but come on people. You really need to learn how to loose without blaming EA or the AI. Like in real life (any sports or other type of competitions), you have a loser and a winner. Sometimes, you will do everything in your power, it won’t work and your opponent will get cheap goals and you will loose. That’s is just how life work.

    I know it is frustrating when it happens but the only thing you can do about it, is to analyze what happened and try to do better the next time.

    The game is just mimicking that randomness which can be seen very often in real life. You see everyday really weak team beating super powerful and talented teams. It can be because they were underestimated or many other things (fatigue, energy boost, etc...) Why do you think players/athletes very often cry after loosing in finale? It is because you gave everything and it still didn’t work.

    If we go with your theory of how it should be, we would end up with an undynamic robotic game. People would always score the same way and the outcome of the game would be almost always dictated by the teams overalls. People playing a lot or spending more money, would always win against casual gamers just because they have better players. I might be wrong, but I am pretty sure you don’t want that.

    And finally, you shouldn’t count on your AI to save you. They are just there to fill the gap and move the players that you cannot move. As in real life again, your teammates might not do what you would have done in the same situation.


    To the first part in bold....if that’s the case EA should just tell everyone then that this is what happens. That your team and/or goalie will have off nights, despite how good you play, to mimic the ups and downs of real hockey teams. They won’t for two reasons....1) That would be admitting that there is a momentum type thing in place and people are in fact losing games based on something out of user control. 2) it’s simply not what the problem is EA has said so.

    The second part in bold....people also shouldn’t expect their AI to cost them games. You build a team and spend time or money to acquire better players only to have random good or bad play by your AI dictate the direction of the game regardless of those players ratings.

    If you read through this thread entirely you will see this is not a thread complaining about losing. Most people have pointed out that they are also the beneficiary of these things going on. I’ve certainly been on both sides and its not fun either way. To play devils advocate I see your point on not wanting every game to be identical but I believe the lesser of two evils is to let games come down to player skill vs player skill and let the AI play to the ability of the cards in your line up. The “get good” theory doesn’t fit here.
    Post edited by jake19ny on
  • Sgt_Kelso
    1120 posts Member
    edited October 18
    Single player games are a bit different than multiplayers, but at least in the past if you chekced out the sliders for single-player, there were separate sliders for the CPU and the player team.

    Besides, once difficulty levels kick in, it becomes more and more irrelevant what players the CPU has, they all play like hockey gods in comparison to your team's AI. From Pro onwards, your team AI seems plum stupid in comparison. I think that's the sliders at work.

    I've mentioned the possibility before I think, but if the same difficulty mechanism is at work in multiplayer, i.e. AI players play at all-star level, isn't it possible there's glitch whereby one player gets the 'Player AI' side, and the other gets the 'CPU team' AI? Assuming of course that there's no separate AI code for single and multiplayer modes? And even if they were, are they based on the same original code, or were they written separately from the scratch?

    One would think that in multiplayer both sides have the same AI, but if it's been suggested there's a bug or something fishy going on with the difficulty, it might also have something to do with the choice of AI 'sliders' (CPU vs. player) and not just difficulty.

    It must be complex bunch of code one assumes, has the dev team really gone through it with fine tooth comb? Do they work by adding to the old code, or have they rewritten the code at some point etc. These things I'd love to know.
  • The game is not mimicking randomness. It is not mimicking momentum or mood shifts. EA dev has specifically stated there is nothing changing how the game plays other than player ratings and strategies.

    It is plain and simple. Some games your AI is a beast, other times, a noob. Now someone has to figure out the issue and get it resolved. AI should be even on both sides, period. The main deciding factor should be the humans control their AI team, not who has the better AI.
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