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Tripping: What Are the Rules That Explain When It Happens?

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Bmh245
905 posts Member
edited October 2019
In a recent thread, @NHLDev explained that they'd eased the tripping rules this year to make it easier for defensive players to use their sticks without taking tripping penalties:

"With the DSS, you can put your stick right through a full leg from the outside in, and not get a trip. ... Even if you swipe too aggressive through that outside leg, you won't get a trip.

"We also made a change this year to make the amount of collision needed for a trip greater, even on a regular poke. This means you need to get a bigger piece of the skates to cause a fall this year compared to last and stick blade on skate from the front angles of the player won't cause a trip either to give more forgiveness to better positioning."

This sounds great, given that the game has already stripped too many tools from the defense. But in my experience, it doesn't match the way tripping penalties get called in this game.

Here, I'm poking from the front, and graze the player's skate. Tripping penalty:



Here again, poking in the offensive zone. Stick hits skate. Tripping penalty:



These kinds of penalties happen all the time this year. So what am I missing? Is it that even if the defensive player is facing the offensive player, if the offensive player turns away, it suddenly becomes a penalty if your stick goes through the skate? If so, that seems like a very bad gameplay decision. But regardless, I just would like to understand what determines why sometimes a stick through skate is fine, and other times it causes a trip.

Replies

  • Yea...I'm getting called for tripping on a constant basis. it's frustrating because the slightest tap and the player goes down. I can't use the poke check anymore because of the numerous power plays the CPU gets. It's frustrating.
  • Bmh245 wrote: »
    In a recent thread, @NHLDev explained that they'd eased the tripping rules this year to make it easier for defensive players to use their sticks without taking tripping penalties:

    "With the DSS, you can put your stick right through a full leg from the outside in, and not get a trip. ... Even if you swipe too aggressive through that outside leg, you won't get a trip.

    "We also made a change this year to make the amount of collision needed for a trip greater, even on a regular poke. This means you need to get a bigger piece of the skates to cause a fall this year compared to last and stick blade on skate from the front angles of the player won't cause a trip either to give more forgiveness to better positioning."

    This sounds great, given that the game has already stripped too many tools from the defense. But in my experience, it doesn't match the way tripping penalties get called in this game.

    Here, I'm poking from the front, and graze the player's skate. Tripping penalty:



    Here again, poking in the offensive zone. Stick hits skate. Tripping penalty:



    These kinds of penalties happen all the time this year. So what am I missing? Is it that even if the defensive player is facing the offensive player, if the offensive player turns away, it suddenly becomes a penalty if your stick goes through the skate? If so, that seems like a very bad gameplay decision. But regardless, I just would like to understand what determines why sometimes a stick through skate is fine, and other times it causes a trip.

    Nice examples as always BMH.

    And btw, welcome back. Missed you :tongue:
  • Nice examples as always BMH.

    And btw, welcome back. Missed you :tongue:

    Thanks, WG. Plan to be posting more soon.

  • THE reason I won’t buy NHL 20 or any future NHL game after being a 20 year customer
  • boumbidiboum
    446 posts Member
    edited October 2019
    Bmh245 wrote: »
    In a recent thread, @NHLDev explained that they'd eased the tripping rules this year to make it easier for defensive players to use their sticks without taking tripping penalties:

    "With the DSS, you can put your stick right through a full leg from the outside in, and not get a trip. ... Even if you swipe too aggressive through that outside leg, you won't get a trip.

    "We also made a change this year to make the amount of collision needed for a trip greater, even on a regular poke. This means you need to get a bigger piece of the skates to cause a fall this year compared to last and stick blade on skate from the front angles of the player won't cause a trip either to give more forgiveness to better positioning."

    This sounds great, given that the game has already stripped too many tools from the defense. But in my experience, it doesn't match the way tripping penalties get called in this game.

    Here, I'm poking from the front, and graze the player's skate. Tripping penalty:



    Here again, poking in the offensive zone. Stick hits skate. Tripping penalty:



    These kinds of penalties happen all the time this year. So what am I missing? Is it that even if the defensive player is facing the offensive player, if the offensive player turns away, it suddenly becomes a penalty if your stick goes through the skate? If so, that seems like a very bad gameplay decision. But regardless, I just would like to understand what determines why sometimes a stick through skate is fine, and other times it causes a trip.

    On your first clip, you hit the side of his skate and pretty clearly too (Your stick goes all the way through), so I would say it is a fair tripping penalty.

    On the second clip, you hit the back of his skate. Look like, you got beat and try to keep him from skating away by tripping him.

    I agree that very often, if you are playing a decently skilled player, he will turn around just before you poke and you get a penalty. That’s kind of annoying, but what can you do? He saw you coming and protected the puck. Can’t be mad at him for playing good hockey.

    I am pretty sure that where they eased on tripping penalty, are side-to-side and face-to-face trip. If you are backing up as a Dman and poke the skate of the offensive player coming in front of you because he’s to fast and you are too close to him, that would be one of the occasions where it was reduced. And also if you are beside the offensive player and swing your stick around him to hit the puck, the tripping is less likely to occur.

    That’s what I feel they have done just from playing the game. I use poke check without using the DSS and almost never get a penalty. You just need to know when to press R1 and place your player appropriately so that your stick as the best chances to hit the puck and not the player.
  • From looking at those videos, it looks like your stick got under his skate both times. When his foot makes contact with the ice and your stick takes the place, yeah that’s gonna be tripping 10/10 times.

    What irks me more about tripping is the times I have the proper positioning and yet the game has me poke at some random area. Or the times I’ve literally blocked a shot and then been called for tripping. I’ve poked the puck away first and still been called for tripping.

    The overall lack of any general sense of what a penalty is is what bothers me. Today, I went down to block a passing lane, made hip to hip contact and was called for a trip. My stick was in a good spot, and never actually made contact with the body and yet I was called for tripping.
  • Sgt_Kelso
    1325 posts Member
    edited October 2019
    You still get a trip even when your stick touches only the tip of one skate, you still get a trip when you poke ahead and the opponent if facing you etc. I don't think too much has changed honestly, it's mostly just talk.

    Granted, lag plays a large part in these, often your poke comes way after you hit the trigger, so it's hard to judge when to poke, the opponent has moved a feet or two, so timing is off, etc.

    But poking will remain a mess because stick contact doesn't work consistently. Besides, what does it matter when you succesfully poke the puck off the opponent, and they immediately get it back? Then if you poke again, you most likely won't be as lucky, and get rewarded with a penalty? If pokes really are powerful enough to trip people, then they should be powerful enough to poke the puck well away from the 'gravity zone' of the opponent?

    I would question the whole poke check trip animation sequence, it looks way too stupid and unrealistic most of time. But I guess it's the best we can get eh?
  • I think the last two guys are missing the point. The argument isn’t whether the stick hit it our not, it’s whether grazing or barley touching a skate with your stick should result in a penalty or trip animation. Your best defense shouldn’t be incidental contact.
  • boumbidiboum
    446 posts Member
    edited October 2019
    From looking at those videos, it looks like your stick got under his skate both times. When his foot makes contact with the ice and your stick takes the place, yeah that’s gonna be tripping 10/10 times.

    What irks me more about tripping is the times I have the proper positioning and yet the game has me poke at some random area. Or the times I’ve literally blocked a shot and then been called for tripping. I’ve poked the puck away first and still been called for tripping.

    The overall lack of any general sense of what a penalty is is what bothers me. Today, I went down to block a passing lane, made hip to hip contact and was called for a trip. My stick was in a good spot, and never actually made contact with the body and yet I was called for tripping.

    I either read this or seen it in a video, but a Dev explained how poking work. When you press R1, your stick doesn’t go where the puck currently is but where it is going to be (they guess what is the most probable option). And the poking attributes is what dictates how good you’re at it. (Precision and Quickness). The higher your poking attribute is the faster and quicker your player will put is stick near the puck. If you have low poking attributes, your player might put his stick somewhere where you don’t want to and/or have a slower reaction time and put the stick where the puck was and trip the player because his skates are now in that place.

    They also said that it mostly affect, the harder poke moves, if the player is right in front of you with the perfect position, it shouldn’t matter if you have a low attribute. If you are trying to reach around a player or on your side or behind you, this is where the high attribute may save you from a tripping call (not always though).
  • Bmh245 wrote: »
    In a recent thread, @NHLDev explained that they'd eased the tripping rules this year to make it easier for defensive players to use their sticks without taking tripping penalties:

    "With the DSS, you can put your stick right through a full leg from the outside in, and not get a trip. ... Even if you swipe too aggressive through that outside leg, you won't get a trip.

    "We also made a change this year to make the amount of collision needed for a trip greater, even on a regular poke. This means you need to get a bigger piece of the skates to cause a fall this year compared to last and stick blade on skate from the front angles of the player won't cause a trip either to give more forgiveness to better positioning."

    This sounds great, given that the game has already stripped too many tools from the defense. But in my experience, it doesn't match the way tripping penalties get called in this game.

    Here, I'm poking from the front, and graze the player's skate. Tripping penalty:



    Here again, poking in the offensive zone. Stick hits skate. Tripping penalty:



    These kinds of penalties happen all the time this year. So what am I missing? Is it that even if the defensive player is facing the offensive player, if the offensive player turns away, it suddenly becomes a penalty if your stick goes through the skate? If so, that seems like a very bad gameplay decision. But regardless, I just would like to understand what determines why sometimes a stick through skate is fine, and other times it causes a trip.

    On your first clip, you hit the side of his skate and pretty clearly too (Your stick goes all the way through), so I would say it is a fair tripping penalty.

    On the second clip, you hit the back of his skate. Look like, you got beat and try to keep him from skating away by tripping him.

    I agree that very often, if you are playing a decently skilled player, he will turn around just before you poke and you get a penalty. That’s kind of annoying, but what can you do? He saw you coming and protected the puck. Can’t be mad at him for playing good hockey.

    I am pretty sure that where they eased on tripping penalty, are side-to-side and face-to-face trip. If you are backing up as a Dman and poke the skate of the offensive player coming in front of you because he’s to fast and you are too close to him, that would be one of the occasions where it was reduced. And also if you are beside the offensive player and swing your stick around him to hit the puck, the tripping is less likely to occur.

    That’s what I feel they have done just from playing the game. I use poke check without using the DSS and almost never get a penalty. You just need to know when to press R1 and place your player appropriately so that your stick as the best chances to hit the puck and not the player.

    You realize your whole explanation goes against the mechanics of the game and how it was explained by the @NHLDev ? He clearly stated that last year and this year, you don't get a tripping call if you go through 1 skate. Fairly obvious these videos show it isn't that simple, or it's broken. This year it is actually supposed to be more forgiving and these videos yet again show it isn't the case.
  • boumbidiboum
    446 posts Member
    edited October 2019
    They never said that there’s no more tripping. They said that if you poke the front of a player skate, you have less chances of getting a penalty. In other words, if you’re face-to-face with the player that you’re poking, the game will be more forgiving to you if you poke through his skates. If your stick hit the skates from the side or the back, it will cause a tripping and should too. You can’t poke everywhere with no consequence.

    And they also said that if your stick hits the legs of the player, if your trying to reach from the side, you won’t trip him anymore. If your stick hit is skate though, they will fall and you will get the call.
  • From looking at those videos, it looks like your stick got under his skate both times. When his foot makes contact with the ice and your stick takes the place, yeah that’s gonna be tripping 10/10 times.

    What irks me more about tripping is the times I have the proper positioning and yet the game has me poke at some random area. Or the times I’ve literally blocked a shot and then been called for tripping. I’ve poked the puck away first and still been called for tripping.

    The overall lack of any general sense of what a penalty is is what bothers me. Today, I went down to block a passing lane, made hip to hip contact and was called for a trip. My stick was in a good spot, and never actually made contact with the body and yet I was called for tripping.

    I either read this or seen it in a video, but a Dev explained how poking work. When you press R1, your stick doesn’t go where the puck currently is but where it is going to be (they guess what is the most probable option). And the poking attributes is what dictates how good you’re at it. (Precision and Quickness). The higher your poking attribute is the faster and quicker your player will put is stick near the puck. If you have low poking attributes, your player might put his stick somewhere where you don’t want to and/or have a slower reaction time and put the stick where the puck was and trip the player because his skates are now in that place.

    They also said that it mostly affect, the harder poke moves, if the player is right in front of you with the perfect position, it shouldn’t matter if you have a low attribute. If you are trying to reach around a player or on your side or behind you, this is where the high attribute may save you from a tripping call (not always though).

    I'm right there with you on this. I've been very disciplined with poke checks and had zero problems with the changes the past couple of years(actually very pro change). This year I get more penalties like these where it seems the outcome is either random or straight unfair. Once I started getting them after poking the puck away I just put the RB away.
  • Bmh245 wrote: »
    Nice examples as always BMH.

    And btw, welcome back. Missed you :tongue:

    Thanks, WG. Plan to be posting more soon.

    Awesome.

    I for one, will be happy to check out your posts. Always detailed and constructive.


  • Both teams are AI controlled
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    edited October 2019
    Bmh245 wrote: »
    In a recent thread, @NHLDev explained that they'd eased the tripping rules this year to make it easier for defensive players to use their sticks without taking tripping penalties:

    "With the DSS, you can put your stick right through a full leg from the outside in, and not get a trip. ... Even if you swipe too aggressive through that outside leg, you won't get a trip.

    "We also made a change this year to make the amount of collision needed for a trip greater, even on a regular poke. This means you need to get a bigger piece of the skates to cause a fall this year compared to last and stick blade on skate from the front angles of the player won't cause a trip either to give more forgiveness to better positioning."

    This sounds great, given that the game has already stripped too many tools from the defense. But in my experience, it doesn't match the way tripping penalties get called in this game.

    Here, I'm poking from the front, and graze the player's skate. Tripping penalty:



    Here again, poking in the offensive zone. Stick hits skate. Tripping penalty:



    These kinds of penalties happen all the time this year. So what am I missing? Is it that even if the defensive player is facing the offensive player, if the offensive player turns away, it suddenly becomes a penalty if your stick goes through the skate? If so, that seems like a very bad gameplay decision. But regardless, I just would like to understand what determines why sometimes a stick through skate is fine, and other times it causes a trip.

    You are saying you are poking. Are you poking or using DSS? With poking, it takes it as a less controlled and stronger action and will trip the player even if it is on one leg outside to in. It is with DSS, that you should be able to swipe from outside to in and not get called if it is only one leg.

    The first one looks like it may be DSS and I wonder if the system is seeing you pulling the stick back outward while still in DSS as being an inside to out sweep or something since it may not have detected the outside to in by just being blade on skate a smaller amount and thus not count it as a blocked outside to in sweep. Hard to say without us getting a repro but curious what you were trying to do. The second may have just been a poke? Or was it DSS too?

    The only change we made this year was to decrease the collision volume slightly for detecting tripping so that you would need to get a bigger piece of the player. Subjectively, it may not be enough for some people but it should be more lenient, if anything, compared to last year.

  • NHLDev wrote: »
    Bmh245 wrote: »
    In a recent thread, @NHLDev explained that they'd eased the tripping rules this year to make it easier for defensive players to use their sticks without taking tripping penalties:

    "With the DSS, you can put your stick right through a full leg from the outside in, and not get a trip. ... Even if you swipe too aggressive through that outside leg, you won't get a trip.

    "We also made a change this year to make the amount of collision needed for a trip greater, even on a regular poke. This means you need to get a bigger piece of the skates to cause a fall this year compared to last and stick blade on skate from the front angles of the player won't cause a trip either to give more forgiveness to better positioning."

    This sounds great, given that the game has already stripped too many tools from the defense. But in my experience, it doesn't match the way tripping penalties get called in this game.

    Here, I'm poking from the front, and graze the player's skate. Tripping penalty:



    Here again, poking in the offensive zone. Stick hits skate. Tripping penalty:



    These kinds of penalties happen all the time this year. So what am I missing? Is it that even if the defensive player is facing the offensive player, if the offensive player turns away, it suddenly becomes a penalty if your stick goes through the skate? If so, that seems like a very bad gameplay decision. But regardless, I just would like to understand what determines why sometimes a stick through skate is fine, and other times it causes a trip.

    You are saying you are poking. Are you poking or using DSS? With poking, it takes it as a less controlled and stronger action and will trip the player even if it is on one leg outside to in. It is with DSS, that you should be able to swipe from outside to in and not get called if it is only one leg.

    The first one looks like it may be DSS and I wonder if the system is seeing you pulling the stick back outward while still in DSS as being an inside to out sweep or something since it may not have detected the outside to in by just being blade on skate a smaller amount and thus not count it as a blocked outside to in sweep. Hard to say without us getting a repro but curious what you were trying to do. The second may have just been a poke? Or was it DSS too?

    The only change we made this year was to decrease the collision volume slightly for detecting tripping so that you would need to get a bigger piece of the player. Subjectively, it may not be enough for some people but it should be more lenient, if anything, compared to last year.

    I honestly was unaware of this. I did not know a straight up poke was considered stronger and was treated differently as the DSS.

    Do the game mechanics consider a difference between a RB poke vs an R3 poke?
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    You are saying you are poking. Are you poking or using DSS? With poking, it takes it as a less controlled and stronger action and will trip the player even if it is on one leg outside to in. It is with DSS, that you should be able to swipe from outside to in and not get called if it is only one leg.

    The first one looks like it may be DSS and I wonder if the system is seeing you pulling the stick back outward while still in DSS as being an inside to out sweep or something since it may not have detected the outside to in by just being blade on skate a smaller amount and thus not count it as a blocked outside to in sweep.

    2nd one may well have been a poke check, so it would make sense in that case that the penalty would be called, given what you're saying. But the first one was DSS, which is why it seems confusing that it registered the trip.
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    Bmh245 wrote: »

    2nd one may well have been a poke check, so it would make sense in that case that the penalty would be called, given what you're saying. But the first one was DSS, which is why it seems confusing that it registered the trip.

    We will look at it on our side more. Only thing I can think of off the top of my head looking at that clip without debug info is that it may not have registered the original outward contact because it ignored the contact as slight blade on skate and somehow saw the withdrawal as inside to out or something.
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    NHLDev wrote: »
    Bmh245 wrote: »
    In a recent thread, @NHLDev explained that they'd eased the tripping rules this year to make it easier for defensive players to use their sticks without taking tripping penalties:

    "With the DSS, you can put your stick right through a full leg from the outside in, and not get a trip. ... Even if you swipe too aggressive through that outside leg, you won't get a trip.

    "We also made a change this year to make the amount of collision needed for a trip greater, even on a regular poke. This means you need to get a bigger piece of the skates to cause a fall this year compared to last and stick blade on skate from the front angles of the player won't cause a trip either to give more forgiveness to better positioning."

    This sounds great, given that the game has already stripped too many tools from the defense. But in my experience, it doesn't match the way tripping penalties get called in this game.

    Here, I'm poking from the front, and graze the player's skate. Tripping penalty:



    Here again, poking in the offensive zone. Stick hits skate. Tripping penalty:



    These kinds of penalties happen all the time this year. So what am I missing? Is it that even if the defensive player is facing the offensive player, if the offensive player turns away, it suddenly becomes a penalty if your stick goes through the skate? If so, that seems like a very bad gameplay decision. But regardless, I just would like to understand what determines why sometimes a stick through skate is fine, and other times it causes a trip.

    You are saying you are poking. Are you poking or using DSS? With poking, it takes it as a less controlled and stronger action and will trip the player even if it is on one leg outside to in. It is with DSS, that you should be able to swipe from outside to in and not get called if it is only one leg.

    The first one looks like it may be DSS and I wonder if the system is seeing you pulling the stick back outward while still in DSS as being an inside to out sweep or something since it may not have detected the outside to in by just being blade on skate a smaller amount and thus not count it as a blocked outside to in sweep. Hard to say without us getting a repro but curious what you were trying to do. The second may have just been a poke? Or was it DSS too?

    The only change we made this year was to decrease the collision volume slightly for detecting tripping so that you would need to get a bigger piece of the player. Subjectively, it may not be enough for some people but it should be more lenient, if anything, compared to last year.

    I honestly was unaware of this. I did not know a straight up poke was considered stronger and was treated differently as the DSS.

    Do the game mechanics consider a difference between a RB poke vs an R3 poke?

    Haven't tried it again before writing this but the intention is that the RB poke and R3 poke are the same when it comes to the rules around tripping.
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    Bmh245 wrote: »

    2nd one may well have been a poke check, so it would make sense in that case that the penalty would be called, given what you're saying. But the first one was DSS, which is why it seems confusing that it registered the trip.

    We will look at it on our side more. Only thing I can think of off the top of my head looking at that clip without debug info is that it may not have registered the original outward contact because it ignored the contact as slight blade on skate and somehow saw the withdrawal as inside to out or something.

    OK - thanks. I'll look out to see if I run across this again with DSS.

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