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This generation was such a waste

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  • Actually wouldn't surprise me if they just carried the game over to PS5, and menus, UI, responsiveness, sim speed, ect. was still incredibly slow and outdated, but with some polish to graphics and font/color changes.

    I completely agree with you. Just like the switch to this generation, history will repeat itself. I was hoping they would get 20 in good place as a foundation for the next generation but I don't have any optimism at all. I really wish they prove me wrong though.
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    edited October 2019
    I think he was referring to the gameplay of the beta. It was the best hockey in my opinion. It was actual hockey. They should have let the tuners the way it was, then focus on the extras you mentioned.

    C'mon @NHLDev, can you not see all these negative comments about gameplay? There are probably 100 people who think the gameplay is fine, why cater to the few when it's obvious the masses want change? How hard would it be to turn it back to the 19 beta or very similar? It's like you go out of your way to disappoint the majority of your fan base.
    There wasn't a change in philosophy from the NHL 19 Beta until Now. In fact I have the same personal overall philosophy on Gameplay that I have had since NHL 13. I believe in a balanced game that leans way more towards simulation gameplay than traditional videogame hockey -- but we are still playing 4 minute periods online. The only game in that period I wasn't on gameplay for was this generations NHL 15, where I was on Presentation Only. I returned back to gameplay in NHL 16.

    The tuning we ended NHL 19 with is the exact same tuning that existed in the last week of the Beta. The only change that was made in that last week that was different from Day 1 of the Beta was that there was a bigger delta in how player ratings impact agility for more player separation. From the videos posted, although some people call out how we shouldn't have lowered the bottom end and increased the top end instead, you can see how the top end and how agile they are, if anything is the issue already and that by giving players more control over their players, it can create unrealistic behavior as well once players learn how.

    That said, when asked about the skating, people feel that has been a great improvement for the series. So for all the reasons it feels great and responsive, those are the same pieces that allow it to be twitchy when players learn to manipulate the controls.

    So this year, we looked at the worst part of what was abused through the latter half of 19 which was the fact that players could still accelerate during pivots with the puck and fixed it. We no longer see that same behavior as players will just slow down now if they do it.

    Now the biggest issue is that players have learned how to control the pivot direction feature that was added in NHL 19 with even more precision. It was added to give players agency over their pivot direction so they could go the open way or protected way. In theory this is control you would want to give players but the responsiveness in the blends, which feels great in most circumstances allows you to bend the rules of the skate model when that control is abused.

    We have looked at puck loss when pivoting at high speeds and we have looked at commitment points in pivots where you shouldn't be able to pivot back the other direction but anytime you start to dive into a core feature like skating, you can't take changes lightly and we haven't rushed out anything that we know could have edge case side effects to hurt pieces that are working well.

    For hitting, we have also been looking at cases where low relative speed hits on PS4 aren't behaving as expected like they are on Xbox. It is looking like it is an issue that occurs on final builds only so although we also saw the differences subjectively ourselves, our debug machines and telemetry weren't leading to the issue and we thought we had solved it this year by doing our subjective tests on debug machines where we could track telemetry. We may have a line on it now though so are testing around it.

    So although you feel we go out of our way to disappoint the fan base, we do listen to what everyone has to say and have the best intentions when making this game. Personally, I like a very sim game and feel that although we don't use Full Sim online, it is much more sim than it was in the past with always something closer to our Competitive preset from NHL 13 onwards relative to what online tuning was like in the past (something closer to Traditional) but I get that it is all subjective.

    I often have debates with the Top twitch players you are referring to when they don't think I listen to them either -- as an example, some of them don't want incidental contact and many of them wish Xbox played like PS4 when it comes to the low relative speed hits rather than the other way around. So it all depends on your lens and the conversations you listen to.
  • Taste-D-Rainbow
    2514 posts Member
    edited October 2019
    I wouldn't say it's a complete waste as much a failed experiment.

    I really like what they've done with skating. Anyone who says skating in NHL 12 was the best, I wholeheartedly disagree. TPS was brutal at launch but still doesnt compare to the new skating physics.

    I love how crutial incidental contact has become however I hate how it has become the most reliable way to break up a play.

    Hitting before it got neutered felt absolutely amazing.

    Defensive Skill Stick is still probably one of the best innovation in this generation.

    The crazy drop off I believe has been how EA's gone full casual in terms of modes. Threes arcade, NHL Threes, Ones, Ones Eliminator. All this is trash imo. The player base is already small enough and these goofy modes have watered it down even more. Granted they have their own sliders and what not, the mentality of gamers from these modes carry over to 6s and that's the problem. Selfishness, rag, dangle, snipe, celly is everything that is wrong in the mode I feel is the most important.

    Hockey in it's pure form is 6v6, team play, selflessness, cooperation is what makes hockey one of the best team sports on the planet and you simply dont get that feeling when playing NHL 20.
  • I wouldn't say it's a complete waste as much a failed experiment.

    I really like what they've done with skating. Anyone who says skating in NHL 12 was the best, I wholeheartedly disagree. TPS was brutal at launch but still doesnt compare to the new skating physics.

    I love how crutial incidental contact has become however I hate how it has become the most reliable way to break up a play.

    Hitting before it got neutered felt absolutely amazing.

    Defensive Skill Stick is still probably one of the best innovation in this generation.

    The crazy drop off I believe has been how EA's gone full casual in terms of modes. Threes arcade, NHL Threes, Ones, Ones Eliminator. All this is trash imo. The player base is already small enough and these goofy modes have watered it down even more. Granted they have their own sliders and what not, the mentality of gamers from these modes carry over to 6s and that's the problem. Selfishness, rag, dangle, snipe, celly is everything that is wrong in the mode I feel is the most important.

    Hockey in it's pure form is 6v6, team play, selflessness, cooperation is what makes hockey one of the best team sports on the planet and you simply dont get that feeling when playing NHL 20.

    Hitting I felt was in a good place in NHL17. Then 18 it got nerfed a bit, 19 nerfed some more, and now 20 it's nerfed even further. Although NHL20 there's less noticeable incidental contact knocking the puck off players which is/was a problem.

    Defensive skill stick, although nice, turned poke check trips into a problem we didn't have before.

    The extra modes are complete trash I agree. Lots of people love 3v3 EASHL but I hate it, it's not real Hockey and it lowers the playerbase for 6v6. And you're right, the mentality of the players who play that mode is different when they jump over to real Hockey.

    I'm also not a fan of outdoor rinks with shadows, casual drop-in clothing, and always having the Lions versus the jackrabbits or whatever animal it is every game with generic Chel jerseys.
  • Taste-D-Rainbow
    2514 posts Member
    edited October 2019
    Defensive skill stick, although nice, turned poke check trips into a problem we didn't have before.

    DSS was implemented in NHL 18 and the tripping epidemic didnt start till last year.

    Unless I'm mistaken Ben mentioned they removed the auto aim of the poke check and made it more skill based. Took people forever to adjust.
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    I think he was referring to the gameplay of the beta. It was the best hockey in my opinion. It was actual hockey. They should have let the tuners the way it was, then focus on the extras you mentioned.

    C'mon @NHLDev, can you not see all these negative comments about gameplay? There are probably 100 people who think the gameplay is fine, why cater to the few when it's obvious the masses want change? How hard would it be to turn it back to the 19 beta or very similar? It's like you go out of your way to disappoint the majority of your fan base.
    There wasn't a change in philosophy from the NHL 19 Beta until Now. In fact I have the same personal overall philosophy on Gameplay that I have had since NHL 13. I believe in a balanced game that leans way more towards simulation gameplay than traditional videogame hockey -- but we are still playing 4 minute periods online. The only game in that period I wasn't on gameplay for was this generations NHL 15, where I was on Presentation Only. I returned back to gameplay in NHL 16.

    The tuning we ended NHL 19 with is the exact same tuning that existed in the last week of the Beta. The only change that was made in that last week that was different from Day 1 of the Beta was that there was a bigger delta in how player ratings impact agility for more player separation. From the videos posted, although some people call out how we shouldn't have lowered the bottom end and increased the top end instead, you can see how the top end and how agile they are, if anything is the issue already and that by giving players more control over their players, it can create unrealistic behavior as well once players learn how.

    That said, when asked about the skating, people feel that has been a great improvement for the series. So for all the reasons it feels great and responsive, those are the same pieces that allow it to be twitchy when players learn to manipulate the controls.

    So this year, we looked at the worst part of what was abused through the latter half of 19 which was the fact that players could still accelerate during pivots with the puck and fixed it. We no longer see that same behavior as players will just slow down now if they do it.

    Now the biggest issue is that players have learned how to control the pivot direction feature that was added in NHL 19 with even more precision. It was added to give players agency over their pivot direction so they could go the open way or protected way. In theory this is control you would want to give players but the responsiveness in the blends, which feels great in most circumstances allows you to bend the rules of the skate model when that control is abused.

    We have looked at puck loss when pivoting at high speeds and we have looked at commitment points in pivots where you shouldn't be able to pivot back the other direction but anytime you start to dive into a core feature like skating, you can't take changes lightly and we haven't rushed out anything that we know could have edge case side effects to hurt pieces that are working well.

    For hitting, we have also been looking at cases where low relative speed hits on PS4 aren't behaving as expected like they are on Xbox. It is looking like it is an issue that occurs on final builds only so although we also saw the differences subjectively ourselves, our debug machines and telemetry weren't leading to the issue and we thought we had solved it this year by doing our subjective tests on debug machines where we could track telemetry. We may have a line on it now though so are testing around it.

    So although you feel we go out of our way to disappoint the fan base, we do listen to what everyone has to say and have the best intentions when making this game. Personally, I like a very sim game and feel that although we don't use Full Sim online, it is much more sim than it was in the past with always something closer to our Competitive preset from NHL 13 onwards relative to what online tuning was like in the past (something closer to Traditional) but I get that it is all subjective.

    I often have debates with the Top twitch players you are referring to when they don't think I listen to them either -- as an example, some of them don't want incidental contact and many of them wish Xbox played like PS4 when it comes to the low relative speed hits rather than the other way around. So it all depends on your lens and the conversations you listen to.

    I really appreciate the response but I can feel the difference. The 19 beta was great. The release of 19 was great. Everrything felt good to me, skating, passing and hitting were all in a good place. After 3 weeks, maybe sooner it was changed to what we have now. Why?
  • WainGretSki
    3660 posts Member
    edited October 2019
    NHLDev wrote: »
    I think he was referring to the gameplay of the beta. It was the best hockey in my opinion. It was actual hockey. They should have let the tuners the way it was, then focus on the extras you mentioned.

    C'mon @NHLDev, can you not see all these negative comments about gameplay? There are probably 100 people who think the gameplay is fine, why cater to the few when it's obvious the masses want change? How hard would it be to turn it back to the 19 beta or very similar? It's like you go out of your way to disappoint the majority of your fan base.
    There wasn't a change in philosophy from the NHL 19 Beta until Now. In fact I have the same personal overall philosophy on Gameplay that I have had since NHL 13. I believe in a balanced game that leans way more towards simulation gameplay than traditional videogame hockey -- but we are still playing 4 minute periods online. The only game in that period I wasn't on gameplay for was this generations NHL 15, where I was on Presentation Only. I returned back to gameplay in NHL 16.

    The tuning we ended NHL 19 with is the exact same tuning that existed in the last week of the Beta. The only change that was made in that last week that was different from Day 1 of the Beta was that there was a bigger delta in how player ratings impact agility for more player separation. From the videos posted, although some people call out how we shouldn't have lowered the bottom end and increased the top end instead, you can see how the top end and how agile they are, if anything is the issue already and that by giving players more control over their players, it can create unrealistic behavior as well once players learn how.

    That said, when asked about the skating, people feel that has been a great improvement for the series. So for all the reasons it feels great and responsive, those are the same pieces that allow it to be twitchy when players learn to manipulate the controls.

    So this year, we looked at the worst part of what was abused through the latter half of 19 which was the fact that players could still accelerate during pivots with the puck and fixed it. We no longer see that same behavior as players will just slow down now if they do it.

    Now the biggest issue is that players have learned how to control the pivot direction feature that was added in NHL 19 with even more precision. It was added to give players agency over their pivot direction so they could go the open way or protected way. In theory this is control you would want to give players but the responsiveness in the blends, which feels great in most circumstances allows you to bend the rules of the skate model when that control is abused.

    We have looked at puck loss when pivoting at high speeds and we have looked at commitment points in pivots where you shouldn't be able to pivot back the other direction but anytime you start to dive into a core feature like skating, you can't take changes lightly and we haven't rushed out anything that we know could have edge case side effects to hurt pieces that are working well.

    For hitting, we have also been looking at cases where low relative speed hits on PS4 aren't behaving as expected like they are on Xbox. It is looking like it is an issue that occurs on final builds only so although we also saw the differences subjectively ourselves, our debug machines and telemetry weren't leading to the issue and we thought we had solved it this year by doing our subjective tests on debug machines where we could track telemetry. We may have a line on it now though so are testing around it.

    So although you feel we go out of our way to disappoint the fan base, we do listen to what everyone has to say and have the best intentions when making this game. Personally, I like a very sim game and feel that although we don't use Full Sim online, it is much more sim than it was in the past with always something closer to our Competitive preset from NHL 13 onwards relative to what online tuning was like in the past (something closer to Traditional) but I get that it is all subjective.

    I often have debates with the Top twitch players you are referring to when they don't think I listen to them either -- as an example, some of them don't want incidental contact and many of them wish Xbox played like PS4 when it comes to the low relative speed hits rather than the other way around. So it all depends on your lens and the conversations you listen to.

    Thanks for the clarifications Ben, much appreciated.

    Now, let's dissect this a bit :smiley:

    I am happy to see that the philosophy hasn't changed. That is really good. But sadly, the feeling has changed. It doesn't feel the same, nor does it play the same as it did in the 19 beta. People wanted more control, responsiveness and fluidity, which I felt, the 19 beta delivered very well on. It really was fun to play. I felt that when I wanted my player to do something, regardless of with the puck or not, I would press the controller and my player responded. Something TPS always failed to deliver consistently. It had its moments here and there, but RPM is by far superior.

    Thank-you for explaining the reasoning behind tuning bottom end of players ratings instead of top end. But, as it stands, the high end are still too agile for lower end builds. The lower end builds are bulky and cumbersome so the higher end just dance circles around them. Furthermore, the lower end builds can't really rely on physical contact because way more often than not, the puck carrier finds a way to squirt by with the puck. So you don't get the physical benefit the size of the build brings, but you do get the downfalls in agility and movement of that size build. No benefits to bigger builds unless on pure north-south contact. I also find it weird and do not enjoy all that much that incidental contact is a better tactic than actually using physical play and body checks. You probably did the testing and analysis of it all, but I would be curious to see if the tuning had been on higher end and try it out myself. Sure, higher end would have even more agility, but I fell like the lower end would still have that agility and control gap, but would be more fun to play. But then again, maybe that tuning would see more abuse than currently which would lead to even more problems. I am willing to take your word on that.

    Thanks for explaining that although LT abuse is not fixed yet, you are looking into it and every angle behind it. Normally we do not get told this kind of info, so I really do appreciate the fact you are talking about it. But for the sake of discussion, how complex would it be to take balance and puck control and put those close to 0 and therefore make players excessively vulnerable to body checks? Or at the very least, just balance and hardly tune puck control? Seems like it wouldn't affect all that much players with pucks while no one is around them. The main problem here is how easily it is to shrug off physical contact during LT'ing and the benefits of doing it.
    Was also wondering, is the LT abuse easier to counter on Xbox than PS4 because of the issue the PS4 is having on relative low speed hitting?

    And to be fair and clear, I do not feel you are going out of your way to disappoint the fan base or break the game. That is ridiculous quite honestly. But I will say, I feel your studio has heavily favored offense in its tuning and final product. And I get it, some people out there think 90% of hockey is about scoring and you do have to give them something if you expect them to buy the product. Having said that, I will never change my opinion on the fact that selfish play should be heavily punished despite this is a video game. To me, there is absolutely no logic in a puck carrier bullying his way past me to the net. You don't want to pass, then you should be punished, especially when twirling around in the corners at low speeds and certainly not shrug off most checks by curling your stick.

    Thanks for your time Ben. As always, insightful and interesting.
    Post edited by WainGretSki on
  • jake19ny
    688 posts Member
    edited October 2019
    NHLDev wrote: »
    I think he was referring to the gameplay of the beta. It was the best hockey in my opinion. It was actual hockey. They should have let the tuners the way it was, then focus on the extras you mentioned.

    C'mon @NHLDev, can you not see all these negative comments about gameplay? There are probably 100 people who think the gameplay is fine, why cater to the few when it's obvious the masses want change? How hard would it be to turn it back to the 19 beta or very similar? It's like you go out of your way to disappoint the majority of your fan base.
    There wasn't a change in philosophy from the NHL 19 Beta until Now. In fact I have the same personal overall philosophy on Gameplay that I have had since NHL 13. I believe in a balanced game that leans way more towards simulation gameplay than traditional videogame hockey -- but we are still playing 4 minute periods online. The only game in that period I wasn't on gameplay for was this generations NHL 15, where I was on Presentation Only. I returned back to gameplay in NHL 16.

    The tuning we ended NHL 19 with is the exact same tuning that existed in the last week of the Beta. The only change that was made in that last week that was different from Day 1 of the Beta was that there was a bigger delta in how player ratings impact agility for more player separation. From the videos posted, although some people call out how we shouldn't have lowered the bottom end and increased the top end instead, you can see how the top end and how agile they are, if anything is the issue already and that by giving players more control over their players, it can create unrealistic behavior as well once players learn how.

    That said, when asked about the skating, people feel that has been a great improvement for the series. So for all the reasons it feels great and responsive, those are the same pieces that allow it to be twitchy when players learn to manipulate the controls.

    So this year, we looked at the worst part of what was abused through the latter half of 19 which was the fact that players could still accelerate during pivots with the puck and fixed it. We no longer see that same behavior as players will just slow down now if they do it.

    Now the biggest issue is that players have learned how to control the pivot direction feature that was added in NHL 19 with even more precision. It was added to give players agency over their pivot direction so they could go the open way or protected way. In theory this is control you would want to give players but the responsiveness in the blends, which feels great in most circumstances allows you to bend the rules of the skate model when that control is abused.

    We have looked at puck loss when pivoting at high speeds and we have looked at commitment points in pivots where you shouldn't be able to pivot back the other direction but anytime you start to dive into a core feature like skating, you can't take changes lightly and we haven't rushed out anything that we know could have edge case side effects to hurt pieces that are working well.

    For hitting, we have also been looking at cases where low relative speed hits on PS4 aren't behaving as expected like they are on Xbox. It is looking like it is an issue that occurs on final builds only so although we also saw the differences subjectively ourselves, our debug machines and telemetry weren't leading to the issue and we thought we had solved it this year by doing our subjective tests on debug machines where we could track telemetry. We may have a line on it now though so are testing around it.

    So although you feel we go out of our way to disappoint the fan base, we do listen to what everyone has to say and have the best intentions when making this game. Personally, I like a very sim game and feel that although we don't use Full Sim online, it is much more sim than it was in the past with always something closer to our Competitive preset from NHL 13 onwards relative to what online tuning was like in the past (something closer to Traditional) but I get that it is all subjective.

    I often have debates with the Top twitch players you are referring to when they don't think I listen to them either -- as an example, some of them don't want incidental contact and many of them wish Xbox played like PS4 when it comes to the low relative speed hits rather than the other way around. So it all depends on your lens and the conversations you listen to.

    And yet the game changed dramatically. What NHL 19 became and what NHL 20 is are way different than the NHL 19 early access...it just is. One example I can give and have given before, during the early access when I skated up the boards the CPU defender took a perfect angle to cut me off. He bumped me into the boards where my player lost a little balance and the puck squirted free down the ice. I say it all the time it was the most realistic looking and organic feeling thing I’ve ever experienced in the series. 2 updates later it was gone and the game played more like NHL 18......

    ....Fast forward to NHL 20 I skate down he boards with little Johnny Gaudrau and get plastered by a running hit but the very bigger defender that hit me just bounced off, lil Johnny still had the puck glued to his stick and I skated in and scored.

    That’s just one example in many....if that’s not a change in philosophy I don’t I know what is.
  • HurricaneFza
    466 posts Member
    edited October 2019
    @NHLDev, you can say you dont go out of your way to make it worse and maybe you guys dont do it on purpose, but I feel the state of this game speaks for itself. Everyone, everyone can agree the beta for 19, and for a short time after reslease 19 was great. It was actual hockey. I was very happy with it and I assume lot of others were happy with it as well. Then you guys changes it back to the one man show it is now. That's why I say you go outta your way to disappoint, also to get your attention, we had a really good hockey game and for whatever reason you guys decided the majority doesn't deserve actual hockey.

    I dont know how you can play this game and call is full sim, half sim or quarter sim. This game is like an eighth sim.

    Maybe you guys need to make 2 different games goin forward. An arcade game for the LTers who think the game was ment to be played with one guy and a sim where we can play hockey.
    Post edited by HurricaneFza on
  • Is it just me, or what? When you play as an Enforcer, should you not be a force to reckon with whenever a carrier decides to come your way? Especially a dangler or a sniper that barely makes 170 lbs. So why is it instead I feel like a big clunky oaf that can't aim a body check consistently? That's all that build is good for: physical play, long reach, good fighter. A third of his strengths are gone.
  • Is it just me, or what? When you play as an Enforcer, should you not be a force to reckon with whenever a carrier decides to come your way? Especially a dangler or a sniper that barely makes 170 lbs. So why is it instead I feel like a big clunky oaf that can't aim a body check consistently? That's all that build is good for: physical play, long reach, good fighter. A third of his strengths are gone.

    It's not you. I think you already know that.

    It's things like this the get me so frustrated. Especially when the dev says they want a balanced game, this game is far from balanced. Where is the balance in this situation? If the enforcer can't hit a smaller player because of "the bubble" then it's obvious there is none. This effects every other game mode.

    Players with the puck are overpowered, plain and simple. Players with the puck are overpowered, plain and simple. Then once you add the exploits, what little balance that you did have completely goes out the window.

    There has to be a risk associated with all these high reward tools the pick carrier has. I don't see that.
  • @NHLDev If a code fix for the problem with low-speed hits on the PS4 isn't going to be ready soon, would it be feasible to put out a PS4-specific tuner to get the same results?
  • Today I have played several games and I think, now I fully understand what @NHLDev was talking about. I have completely changed my game style I was using before, especially defense. I've adapted to the current game-play. Now I can say that you really have tools how to effectively play a defense. Hits are not the best option this year, however you can use them but not in every situation, which is good I think. It doesn't mean that you can't use them effectively. Game-play has changed to be more like real hokey imo instead of the style we have played so far - make a pass right now otherwise you will be smashed down. I rate it positively.
  • WainGretSki
    3660 posts Member
    edited October 2019
    Ampereturn wrote: »
    Today I have played several games and I think, now I fully understand what @NHLDev was talking about. I have completely changed my game style I was using before, especially defense. I've adapted to the current game-play. Now I can say that you really have tools how to effectively play a defense. Hits are not the best option this year, however you can use them but not in every situation, which is good I think. It doesn't mean that you can't use them effectively. Game-play has changed to be more like real hokey imo instead of the style we have played so far - make a pass right now otherwise you will be smashed down. I rate it positively.

    For me, that isn't the issue. I know the tools, I use the tools. The problem is how I have to use the tools. The problem is when I can use the tools. The problem is some tools are borderline useless. And on the PS4, it is just that much worse. Hopefully that fix is coming soon.

    I also do not know what you mean by "real hockey". I do not see it.
  • Ampereturn wrote: »
    Today I have played several games and I think, now I fully understand what @NHLDev was talking about. I have completely changed my game style I was using before, especially defense. I've adapted to the current game-play. Now I can say that you really have tools how to effectively play a defense. Hits are not the best option this year, however you can use them but not in every situation, which is good I think. It doesn't mean that you can't use them effectively. Game-play has changed to be more like real hokey imo instead of the style we have played so far - make a pass right now otherwise you will be smashed down. I rate it positively.

    I rate it the opposite, below average.
  • @NHLDev We've talked about this before, but the reason I think the game plays this way and why people are not liking it is because the lateral acceleration is still way too high. Players on skates are NOT supposed to spin 360° like that on an axis, especially with the puck. It breaks the skating, it breaks the game. It also makes avoiding hits a simple matter of twitching to negate contact by shifting the angle of impact so that you glance off when you should (at least) make the puck handler stumble.

    And that's another thing, why is it that every hit has to result in a loss of the puck? There should be more stumbles while retaining puck control, like in real hockey. Same with the incidental contacts. There are too many change of possession in EA's NHL, in fact I'd say it's gotten worse every year to the point the game has devolved into back and forth affairs that lack any kind of strategy: attack, skate into the defense, loose the puck, go back the other way, hit, lose the puck, go back the other way, attack, hit, lose the puck again, attack, etc... It's one of the biggest complaints you hear from "top players" who get frustrated by constantly losing the puck to simple contact or even just a random brush of an opponent's blade on the puck. It's why they have to find ways to break the game by constantly skating backwards because they don't know any other way that works as well to penetrate the zone and retain control.

    Lateral acceleration also is a big problem for the goaltending which hasn't ever been updated to keep up with the increasing speed and control players have with the puck while being able to not only use their sticks to get around them, but they can also rotate and gain even MORE range on their shot. All without losing much accuracy in the process.

    The next fix should have a sizeable nerf to the lateral acceleration. Something should also be done about the constant change of puck possession for nothing. Hits at low relative speeds should cause more stumbles and less puck loss. Incidental contact should get slightly nerfed so that slight contact let's the opponent recover a loose puck, but hard contact could make them loose possession or at the very least allow the defender to get into a tie-up state more easily. I would also like to see a raise in goalies effective range by height (smaller goalies = more range on their save animations) which would make sense and would give users a reason to use small builds over giant goalies. There also needs to be a hard nerf on size/weight restrictions. Seeing 6'7" 190Lbs goalies just so they can bypass the speed nerf to their size/weight needs to go. If you want to be a big fat goalie then you're gonna BE a big fat goalie and be slow as heck and will have to rely on superior positioning to stop the puck.
  • Sinbin wrote: »
    jake19ny wrote: »

    Why is the answer always people need to get better? It’s such a broad stroke answer that never really addresses the issues people have. You know it is quite possible to be very good at this game and still dislike the direction it’s taken.

    It's fine to be good at the game and dislike it. However, the truly good players don't blame the game for their own mistakes. There's a big difference between not liking the direction it's going and saying your wins are scripted or your opponent benefits from artificial momentum.

    Forgive me if I am out of line or totally wrong here, but it seems like you are just blindly defending a point while grasping at straws. Here is my take on current gen "hockey" so far:

    NHL 15. So bare bones and a total jip, I think nothing else needs to be added other than maybe this should have been a $19,99 game.

    NHL 16. Goalies were spazzing out and facing their own nets, and may I remind you, was coincidentally fixed the same day NHL 17 came out, but the patch was called NHL 17 and it cost only $79,99
    Pass receptions were bad and people bobbled tons of passes. It was fixed yet again with the NHL 17 patch for a mere $79,99
    AI was partially improved, but still suffered the same problems from previous gen.

    NHL 17 Goalies were floating 2 inches above the ice and allowing goals under their pads while in perfect position. It was partially fixed in a patch called NHL 18 and the patch was a mere $79,99
    AI was practically untouched and still suffered the same problems as previous gen. It was also practically a copy/paste of 16.

    NHL 18 saw the addition of the DSS which is great. Great improvement there.
    Gameplay and AI was essentially the same as NHL 14, but the DSS added a slightly different dynamic. AI was hardly touched. The game suffered from room Captain lag and was not fixed for pretty much that whole year. Also the year where EASHL customization was bigger than ever before.

    NHL 19 addition of RPM and the removal of TPS. By far the greatest improvement in current gen and was a massive improvement over any game from NHL 13-18.
    For the first time in the franchise, puck hogging was exceptionally hard to pull off and goalies were actually doing their jobs. Physical play was fun, it was rewarding to pressure a puck carrier and everybody felt swift and agile on the ice. Yup, people whined and there you go, game got reverted back to 18 style while not allowing poke spamming. Eventually the game got reverted back to middle ground of 18-19. Still not as fun as 19 originally was, but better than 18. Then LT abuse got discovered and ruined the game completely.
    Indoor rinks and uniforms got removed for dropins and they goofed out the mode with outdoor rinks. Feel safe to say a vast majority of players hate it. It was so horribly implemented that now we get white Addidas vs black Addidas. Was a waste of resources and time imo when a vast majority of those 900 items cannot even be used in a 6s game. Dressing room errors plagued the game for pretty much all year.
    AI still suffered for the most part very similar issues of previous years. Goal horns got removed to make room for what I consider a horrible soundtrack. Music is too personal and should not be used in a hockey game unless the focus is to allow custom music as it was on previous gen.

    NHL 20 is pretty much a copy/paste of 19, but very much angled towards 18. If NHL 19 is essentially NHL 18.5, then NHL 20 is essentially NHL 18.25
    NHL 20 does add alot of new animations, especially on pass receptions and shooting. Looks really good and great work. But these new animations leads to defenders picking off passes they have no business picking off.
    LT abuse is just as bad despite time and resources being wasted on a "fix" that is just not fixing anything at all about it. Even though a very big portion of the playerbase complained about the goof gear and outdoor rinks, it was not removed. Not only was it not removed, it was actually built upon. Physical play is less effective than 19 and AI was not touched from 19.
    Also, players are still getting labeled and graded as a Centerman for what, the last 4 years now? Still not fixed.

    So let's recap the good and the bad:

    Good:

    -DSS
    -New shot and pass reception animations
    -Addition of certain modes. 3's arcade is a little fun at times when all you want to do is smash people
    around and goof around. Ones I guess can be fun for certain people.
    -EASHL customization.
    -Perk mods to EASHL players
    -TPS was demolished and sent back to the abyss.
    -Franchise mode has seen some improvements and additions.

    Other than player perks and the removal of custom attributes, this is all current gen offers over past gen.

    The bad:

    -Online GM is still missing.
    -Be a Pro hasn't been touched.
    -Goofy mode gear and mentality in EASHL dropins. Feels like Fortnite Hockey.
    -AI is still horrible and has been for several years.
    -Coaching strats are for the most part untouched or unchanged in about 10 years. Same goes for board
    play and faceoffs.
    -Trolling has never been resolved since NHL 09.
    -Lobbies were never put in so we can do custom matches.
    -Team practice has yet to be implemented.


    Every single release has had a major issue or massive bug, save for NHL 20

    I fail to see any significant improvements anywhere as every step forward has lead to steps back on this gen of consoles.


    Copy and paste. Add one or two new improvements. Sell for $79.99.

    Repeat as long as you keep making money. EA will never stop this trend that’s why I finally pulled the plug and didn’t buy it. Waste of $80 for a game I already had.

  • theDynamiteJ3T
    15 posts Member
    edited October 2019
    Is it just me, or what? When you play as an Enforcer, should you not be a force to reckon with whenever a carrier decides to come your way? Especially a dangler or a sniper that barely makes 170 lbs. So why is it instead I feel like a big clunky oaf that can't aim a body check consistently? That's all that build is good for: physical play, long reach, good fighter. A third of his strengths are gone.

    So you are saying that a 6 foot 8, 260 pound Enforcer should be able to hit any player that comes near them every time... that a smaller, faster skater should never be able to avoid them or mitigate the hit with a quick pivot and body lean?? Every time? You should watch a hockey game and see how hard it is to actually get a perfect, body flattening hit on another professional hockey player. It happens maybe a couple of times a game but you want to be able to crush any player that comes within 10 feet of you every time.
  • Is it just me, or what? When you play as an Enforcer, should you not be a force to reckon with whenever a carrier decides to come your way? Especially a dangler or a sniper that barely makes 170 lbs. So why is it instead I feel like a big clunky oaf that can't aim a body check consistently? That's all that build is good for: physical play, long reach, good fighter. A third of his strengths are gone.

    So you are saying that a 6 foot 8, 260 pound Enforcer should be able to hit any player that comes near them every time... that a smaller, faster skater should never be able to avoid them or mitigate the hit with a quick pivot and body lean?? Every time? You should watch a hockey game and see how hard it is to actually get a perfect, body flattening hit on another professional hockey player. It happens maybe a couple of times a game but you want to be able to crush any player that comes within 10 feet of you every time.

    I think hes implying that you should at least be able to knock him off the puck once in a while when he gets too close.
  • WainGretSki
    3660 posts Member
    edited October 2019
    Is it just me, or what? When you play as an Enforcer, should you not be a force to reckon with whenever a carrier decides to come your way? Especially a dangler or a sniper that barely makes 170 lbs. So why is it instead I feel like a big clunky oaf that can't aim a body check consistently? That's all that build is good for: physical play, long reach, good fighter. A third of his strengths are gone.

    So you are saying that a 6 foot 8, 260 pound Enforcer should be able to hit any player that comes near them every time... that a smaller, faster skater should never be able to avoid them or mitigate the hit with a quick pivot and body lean?? Every time? You should watch a hockey game and see how hard it is to actually get a perfect, body flattening hit on another professional hockey player. It happens maybe a couple of times a game but you want to be able to crush any player that comes within 10 feet of you every time.

    Well I must say I had a good laugh at this post and I don't mean to offend you by saying that.

    For your information I actually played hockey for over 20 years, and yes, on ice. And you know what? It is irrelevant because we are talking about a video game. It is irrelevant if you watch hockey or not, because this is a video game. We are talking about the mechanics within a video game.

    Seeing as in hockey you can actually do the following:

    Rub a player out on the boards. Can't do this is this game.

    In hockey you can use one hand one your stick to guide a player away from the middle of the ice and guide him to the boards. From there, you can use your other hand to carry a player to the boards and remove him from the play. Heavier you are the easier it is (generally). Think Shea Weber or Scott Stevens. Can't do that in this game.

    Instead of going for a full body check, you can use upper body strength to shove a player. You can shove him into the boards, shove him off his skating line, or shove him off the puck. Can't do this in this game.

    I will just stick to these 3 examples for now as we are talking about an Enforcer class.

    So now let's talk about this video game and what it allows you to do vs real life hockey:

    You can do quarter pivots, half pivots, full pivots, in and out of pivots, multiple pivots, all while protecting the puck, maintaining possession of the puck, all while negating physical play because you are essentially abusing an animation system within the game.

    You can curl your stick almost right behind your back to not only negate a body check, but as a bonus the puck won't even dribble two inches away from your stick let alone get knocked loose.

    You can curl your stick behind your back and guess what? This not only allows you to get a fully powered back hand pass off your stick, it actually increases your passing accuracy as a bonus.

    You can skate backwards full speed with the puck all over the ice and the cool thing about it is it allows you to take away the defenders defensive skill stick because the game simply doesn't allow you to reach around a player with your stick properly to try to dislodge the puck. It also is very effective in negating body checks all while in life, you are the least prepared to absorb a body check.

    This game is programmed with either 100% or 0% body checks. You either land a successful check or you don't. This isn't how it is in real life.

    Anyways, there are multiple posts here alone on all the issues and I think I have given you enough time on the explanations behind it. When an Enforcer jumps onto the ice, players take notice. They don't try to bully their way past him unlike this video game. In this game Enforcers are almost a joke and certainly do not intimidate your more than average player.

    This game, in many ways, can be compared to those D&D games and I'll explain.

    OFD and Puckmoving D are basically like spell casters. They are light and fast, but can't withstand alot of physical attacks. They stay towards the back and support from a distance.

    Snipers and Danglers are basically your Rogues. They are light, agile and fast and strike quickly. They are not very good at taking physical hits.

    2 ways, Grinders and Powerforwards are your fighters. They are not incredibly strong or incredibly weak. They are average all around. They don't excel at much, but they on the other hand don't have significant weaknesses either. You can adjust their strengths and weaknesses a bit for some variety.

    Your Enforcers are basically your tanks. They aren't incredibly offensive, but they take hits and hit like no other. They are big, strong, slow and heavy. Now by removing the Enforcers ability to obliterate Rogues with physical play, what are you left with?? A big strong and slow oaf that suffers at dishing out hits.

    So, the question is, how much more do you need this game to hold your hand while you do your little dekes and snipes? All this combined with horrible goaltending and there you have it. Also the fact you compare this to real hockey and that I should watch a "real game" then look at this game as a comparison is actually quite laughable.

    Furthermore, the fact you think that a "sniper" can negate physical play simply by angling his shoulders from an enforcer that is 10 inches taller and nearly 100lbs heavier, and also considering his physical play is one of his three strengths is beyond words.

    I bid you a good day sir.
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