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Why does a.i. do this?

Replies

  • EA_Blueberry
    2016 posts EA Community Manager
    Golly Gee Wilikers, NHL fans! Thank you for the humor but it's probably best now to steer this topic back to what OP was originally discussing. Ai.
  • The AI Logic in this game is pretty non-existent. They pass into crowds, the pass BACK into their own zone even if there are opposing players there, they will continue to skate into the offensive zone even if it is going to be offsides....etc..etc.

    For some reason, this year seems to be a lack of AI logic and common sense. I played a game last night and my player skated down into the offensive zone. I had a d-man trying to get the puck from me. I crossed the blue line, and what did the D-man do? He veered off and let me skate in alone.

    If this AI issue was once every few games, I can almost live with that. But it is a constant issue every game, and it happens quite a few times each game. And it's not "oh, the AI is acting like a human". No. It's the AI having no hockey sense or even basic sports game sense.
  • I'd like to reference the video I posted in https://forums.ea.com/en/nhl/discussion/253384/festivus-is-over-but-i-still-have-grievances#latest.
    While some of the clips are personal annoyances and some problems like pucks stopping on the boards have since been fixed, I think most do a good job showcasing some of the weird things the ai does. I mainly play EASHL with one other buddy so the game definitely plays different than the recommended 12 humans on the ice at a time.


  • NHLDev wrote: »
    Bmh245 wrote: »
    jrago73 wrote: »
    It's not intentional
    Its broke for now
    Your only way of dealing with it until it's fixed is to switch earlier.
    What else is he supposed to say?

    He (or, more accurately, one of the devs) is supposed to explain: "Here's why it's happening. Here's why we haven't fixed it yet. Here's how, and when, we do plan to fix it."

    This is not a trivial problem. In my experience, given the nature of this game and the way it's generally played, this single flaw is responsible for a significant percentage of all goals scored in the game.

    I am not sure why the ai D stops to move forward in this case (Could be a number of things that we just need to get a repro case of and there are some weak side defensive pieces we have been looking at around loose pucks and general assignments). In this case we can also wonder why the human player stepped up and flew by the puck carrier. Using that as a sample case, even if we made the ai a recreation of a human brain, some very odd mistakes could be made.

    The ai is meant to stay in the pass lane and is considering the pass, their position to defend a rebound and if they need to worry about the puck carrier as well. Looking at this case we may want to see if pending line changes are impacting something or if the human D over committing and turning a 2 on 2 into a 2 on 1 when already in zone could cause something.

    while all of these may be valid points there's something very wrong with AI defense against odd man rush.

    in a 2 on 2 situation both AI d play it perfectly and it actually takes good team work to get a scoring chance. Against 2 on 1, the AI D is 100% giving up a goal to anyone with a pulse and all it takes is for both attackers to just skate towards their posts and make one cross crease pass behind the lone AI that decided to step up. This happens 100% and it seems the AI is programmed to only worry about one thing, stepping up into the slot...even when there is zero threat there.

    It sure seems broken to me. In a 2 on 2, the backside AI D plays the pass/backside attacker perfectly most the time. while it would be nice to have the AI defender in a 2 on 1 take away the pass while also defending the crease a bit, I would settle for just playing it like the backside defender on a 2 on 2.

    This play and the 1H tuck are basically bugs that ruin the game when playing against AI dmen and goalies.

    Is this being looked into?

    For me, it's one of the most game breaking things with the A.I behavior.
  • NHLDev
    1652 posts EA NHL Developer
    bryta47 wrote: »
    Is this being looked into?

    For me, it's one of the most game breaking things with the A.I behavior.

    Yep. I can't guarantee with any changes we make that the ai still won't make mistakes or that they will be there to bail out players that leave them in 2 on 1's but we are looking at decisions they are making and why to see if there are ways we can improve it.
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    bryta47 wrote: »
    Is this being looked into?

    For me, it's one of the most game breaking things with the A.I behavior.

    Yep. I can't guarantee with any changes we make that the ai still won't make mistakes or that they will be there to bail out players that leave them in 2 on 1's but we are looking at decisions they are making and why to see if there are ways we can improve it.

    What bail out it's always the players fault it can't be that this game isn't in a good place . again the AI for some EA reason stops and goes forward before you can take control of him ,and before you use that it doesn't happen top to players ,you can ask Mr Nuge he's got clips I'm sure of the AI doing this because I've watched him point out this same issue
  • NHLDev
    1652 posts EA NHL Developer
    NHLDev wrote: »
    bryta47 wrote: »
    Is this being looked into?

    For me, it's one of the most game breaking things with the A.I behavior.

    Yep. I can't guarantee with any changes we make that the ai still won't make mistakes or that they will be there to bail out players that leave them in 2 on 1's but we are looking at decisions they are making and why to see if there are ways we can improve it.

    What bail out it's always the players fault it can't be that this game isn't in a good place . again the AI for some EA reason stops and goes forward before you can take control of him ,and before you use that it doesn't happen top to players ,you can ask Mr Nuge he's got clips I'm sure of the AI doing this because I've watched him point out this same issue

    Maybe read my response again? You got heated up over my response saying we are looking at improving it
  • bryta47
    278 posts Member
    edited February 29
    NHLDev wrote: »
    bryta47 wrote: »
    Is this being looked into?

    For me, it's one of the most game breaking things with the A.I behavior.

    Yep. I can't guarantee with any changes we make that the ai still won't make mistakes or that they will be there to bail out players that leave them in 2 on 1's but we are looking at decisions they are making and why to see if there are ways we can improve it.

    Sounds good.

    I still want the A.I to make mistakes and occasional bad decisions, but in this case it's happening every single time.

    When playing offline this also happens to the opposing CPU, not only your own CPU players, wich makes it feel you can easily cheat the game. And that's no fun. So it's not only a question about A.I bailing out the user team.
  • TTZ_Dipsy
    297 posts Member
    edited March 1
    The picture is my mascot Squanchy (click play, there is actual gameplay footage I'd like to discuss lol)


    1. Goalie being stupid

    2. Horrible goalie play; just cover it up you idiot

    3. AI not making an effort to leave the zone

    4. Daydreaming AI - he was set to be aggressive on the puck

    5. This stupid dumb idiot cost us the game with this boneheaded play

    6. Uh huh, "the AI will always pass to you' eh? This is why touch passing mistakes happen

    7. 50% of the time the AI just freaks out in the neutral zone - forced me to take a penalty

    8. Stupid pass that they always try to make

    9. Not only did he not try to defend at all, he made sure to give him extra room for an OP OHT

    10. There was no reason for him to do this

    11. D just completely allowed him in and forced us to trip

    12. Great job there, AI

    13. I hate when they dump the puck but ❤️❤️❤️❤️ passes like these are way worse

    14. D and winger would rather hump each other than defend the net like they are supposed to

    15. How hasn't this been fixed? Been around for a good 10 years now

    16. Here it is again

    17. Just like #5, what the heck was he thinking? Just tap it in, jeez

    18. Awful pass. Hockey 101: don't pass it up the middle

    19. How the heck isn't that interference?

    20. Another example of the defender purposely giving them space

    21. This stupid pass again...

    22. Didn't attack the guy like he's supposed to. I don't need them to be perfect, I just want them to exert a minimal amount of effort. I'd gladly accept a tripping penalty but for some reason, we can't make them do that.

    23. This is another bogus call that needs fixing.

    24. I didn't impede his movement at all; that isn't goalie interference.

    25. Why is he passing right at the net like that? You just don't do that.

    26. Great job grabbing the puck and then making the easy save you moron...

    27. Anything would have made more sense than dumping the puck

    28. I thought you said you fixed these goals? We have 0 tools to effectively grab the puck from the line.

    29. Another goalie letting it squeak by

    30, 31, 32. If someone gets a penalty in 3's on a human player they immediately attack the cpu because they know that over 80% of the time they are completely useless as you can see here. They don't even try it's so annoying. We don't expect them to be legends, just to put in some minimal effort...

    BONUS ROUND - I only put in 6 clips because I was too lazy to trim the other 20+ showcasing just how useless asking/waiting for a pass from the cpu can be.
    Post edited by TTZ_Dipsy on
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    bryta47 wrote: »
    Is this being looked into?

    For me, it's one of the most game breaking things with the A.I behavior.

    Yep. I can't guarantee with any changes we make that the ai still won't make mistakes or that they will be there to bail out players that leave them in 2 on 1's but we are looking at decisions they are making and why to see if there are ways we can improve it.

    This problem exists on fully CPU-controlled teams, so this isn’t limited to “user error” although I get why you added it as the code in question was from an online game. An easy way to reproduce this issue is to set the CPU team to “puck side attack” then break into the zone up the middle, sauce pass the puck to the winger on the boards of the side of the defenseman you pulled by entering the zone up the middle.

    Watch as the backside defenseman either stops completely or starts taking a direct line at the puck carrier which completely leaves the backside winger wide open for a pass. One thing to note, using “crash the net” on offense helps recreating this scenario as your forwards will all obviously move towards the net.

    If this issue could be fixed, it’d help play a more aggressive style of hockey like you see at the professional level. Obviously a 2-on-1 will still happen, but I’d rather the backside defenseman default to “stand in the middle” rather than “take a straight-line at the puck carrier” you know? IRL, standing in the middle isn’t very useful as the goalie can’t truly play either option, nor does it set the defender up in a great position to actually pick the pass off or pressure the carrier. This is where the “skill gap” can come in for online players (reading if they should pressure or sell-out ok taking the pass) and it’s where defensive awareness/aggressiveness can come in when playing the computer offline.

    Thanks for the discussion.
  • Moxrox84
    247 posts Member
    FYI, this happens in 6's too...no way to prevent it at all. AI is terrible.
  • The AI is bad and has 0 sense so they boost all of their abilities 700% they can pick off passes that they have no business getting, they can hit you while you bounce off them, they can make shots from angles humans can't, they track down the puck with 0 error in their line. When you play with them you notice their lack of logic. When you play against them you notice just HOW much better they are in their abilities.
  • VeNOM2099
    2900 posts Member
    The AI is bad and has 0 sense so they boost all of their abilities 700% they can pick off passes that they have no business getting, they can hit you while you bounce off them, they can make shots from angles humans can't, they track down the puck with 0 error in their line. When you play with them you notice their lack of logic. When you play against them you notice just HOW much better they are in their abilities.

    The only thing the AI is good at is reaction times. They are nearly at Goku Ultra Instinct Mastered levels of reactions. The other thing they are really good at is recovering pucks:





    This is why people call out "ice tilt" or that the AI is "op"... This is why the "top" players keep calling out to have the AI nerfed to crap when the user goes AFK. This is RIDICULOUS! Look at how many times I get the puck only to see it instantly recovered by the AI.

    Gawd, EA...
  • WainGretSki
    3660 posts Member
    edited March 3
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    The AI is bad and has 0 sense so they boost all of their abilities 700% they can pick off passes that they have no business getting, they can hit you while you bounce off them, they can make shots from angles humans can't, they track down the puck with 0 error in their line. When you play with them you notice their lack of logic. When you play against them you notice just HOW much better they are in their abilities.

    The only thing the AI is good at is reaction times. They are nearly at Goku Ultra Instinct Mastered levels of reactions. The other thing they are really good at is recovering pucks:





    This is why people call out "ice tilt" or that the AI is "op"... This is why the "top" players keep calling out to have the AI nerfed to crap when the user goes AFK. This is RIDICULOUS! Look at how many times I get the puck only to see it instantly recovered by the AI.

    Gawd, EA...

    Yup. AI will pretty much always beat you in a foot race, a stick battle, a board pin and shadow your movements like no other.

    For the rest, they are sub-par pretty much in every category except for shot reaction speed. The second, and I mean literally the second an angle opens up for a shot on net, it is fired. They rarely miss too. On the other hand, they totally suck at breakaways as all they do is shoot. Once in every blue moon for some reason, they will deke. But when I play goalie and I see the AI come in on a breakaway, I am not stressed in any way at all. I just come to the top of the crease and wait for the shot which fails 99% of the time.

    EDIT:

    They are way op when it comes to physical play. They require hardly any momentum and will slap the faith of God in you with pretty hard body checks.
    Post edited by WainGretSki on
  • VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    The AI is bad and has 0 sense so they boost all of their abilities 700% they can pick off passes that they have no business getting, they can hit you while you bounce off them, they can make shots from angles humans can't, they track down the puck with 0 error in their line. When you play with them you notice their lack of logic. When you play against them you notice just HOW much better they are in their abilities.

    The only thing the AI is good at is reaction times. They are nearly at Goku Ultra Instinct Mastered levels of reactions. The other thing they are really good at is recovering pucks:





    This is why people call out "ice tilt" or that the AI is "op"... This is why the "top" players keep calling out to have the AI nerfed to crap when the user goes AFK. This is RIDICULOUS! Look at how many times I get the puck only to see it instantly recovered by the AI.

    Gawd, EA...

    Yup. AI will pretty much always beat you in a foot race, a stick battle, a board pin and shadow your movements like no other.

    For the rest, they are sub-par pretty much in every category except for shot reaction speed. The second, and I mean literally the second an angle opens up for a shot on net, it is fired. They rarely miss too. On the other hand, they totally suck at breakaways as all they do is shoot. Once in every blue moon for some reason, they will deke. But when I play goalie and I see the AI come in on a breakaway, I am not stressed in any way at all. I just come to the top of the crease and wait for the shot which fails 99% of the time.

    you pretty much just described why a team of good players easily beats CPU. you work to take away passing and shooting lanes and they are lost. they will possess the puck pretty well but in general if you dont get anxious and take the few things they are good at away they will do crazy stuff with the puck and sometimes just turn it over or take bad shots. on defense they are horrible if you work together as a team.

    in drop ins I would take them all day. in club it just depends on the quality of teams you play on.
  • VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    The AI is bad and has 0 sense so they boost all of their abilities 700% they can pick off passes that they have no business getting, they can hit you while you bounce off them, they can make shots from angles humans can't, they track down the puck with 0 error in their line. When you play with them you notice their lack of logic. When you play against them you notice just HOW much better they are in their abilities.

    The only thing the AI is good at is reaction times. They are nearly at Goku Ultra Instinct Mastered levels of reactions. The other thing they are really good at is recovering pucks:





    This is why people call out "ice tilt" or that the AI is "op"... This is why the "top" players keep calling out to have the AI nerfed to crap when the user goes AFK. This is RIDICULOUS! Look at how many times I get the puck only to see it instantly recovered by the AI.

    Gawd, EA...

    Yup. AI will pretty much always beat you in a foot race, a stick battle, a board pin and shadow your movements like no other.

    For the rest, they are sub-par pretty much in every category except for shot reaction speed. The second, and I mean literally the second an angle opens up for a shot on net, it is fired. They rarely miss too. On the other hand, they totally suck at breakaways as all they do is shoot. Once in every blue moon for some reason, they will deke. But when I play goalie and I see the AI come in on a breakaway, I am not stressed in any way at all. I just come to the top of the crease and wait for the shot which fails 99% of the time.

    you pretty much just described why a team of good players easily beats CPU. you work to take away passing and shooting lanes and they are lost. they will possess the puck pretty well but in general if you dont get anxious and take the few things they are good at away they will do crazy stuff with the puck and sometimes just turn it over or take bad shots. on defense they are horrible if you work together as a team.

    in drop ins I would take them all day. in club it just depends on the quality of teams you play on.

    If you work to take away passing and shooting lanes of real people they become lost as well haha
  • VeNOM2099
    2900 posts Member
    edited March 3
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    The AI is bad and has 0 sense so they boost all of their abilities 700% they can pick off passes that they have no business getting, they can hit you while you bounce off them, they can make shots from angles humans can't, they track down the puck with 0 error in their line. When you play with them you notice their lack of logic. When you play against them you notice just HOW much better they are in their abilities.

    The only thing the AI is good at is reaction times. They are nearly at Goku Ultra Instinct Mastered levels of reactions. The other thing they are really good at is recovering pucks:





    This is why people call out "ice tilt" or that the AI is "op"... This is why the "top" players keep calling out to have the AI nerfed to crap when the user goes AFK. This is RIDICULOUS! Look at how many times I get the puck only to see it instantly recovered by the AI.

    Gawd, EA...

    Yup. AI will pretty much always beat you in a foot race, a stick battle, a board pin and shadow your movements like no other.

    For the rest, they are sub-par pretty much in every category except for shot reaction speed. The second, and I mean literally the second an angle opens up for a shot on net, it is fired. They rarely miss too. On the other hand, they totally suck at breakaways as all they do is shoot. Once in every blue moon for some reason, they will deke. But when I play goalie and I see the AI come in on a breakaway, I am not stressed in any way at all. I just come to the top of the crease and wait for the shot which fails 99% of the time.

    you pretty much just described why a team of good players easily beats CPU. you work to take away passing and shooting lanes and they are lost. they will possess the puck pretty well but in general if you dont get anxious and take the few things they are good at away they will do crazy stuff with the puck and sometimes just turn it over or take bad shots. on defense they are horrible if you work together as a team.

    in drop ins I would take them all day. in club it just depends on the quality of teams you play on.

    If you work to take away passing and shooting lanes of real people they become lost as well haha

    Easier said than done. I remember a few years back, when I was still playing this game with my buddies from the old 2K forums, we came across a team who obviously knew the ins and out of the game. First game we got badly beaten I think like 7-1. They walked in alone and scored quite a few goals that way. They liked to dipsy-doodle and draw defenders to them. The usual EA Trihard stuff. As luck would have it we matched up against them the very next game. This time we decided to just play positional and take away their easy chances they got the first game. We won 2-1.

    It wasn't easy. And the entire team had to be on the same page and know what they were doing. But in the end we made the other team look like a bunch of amateurs who didn't know what to do once you took away what they were looking for. Forced to actually play real hockey, they crumbled.

    But each year it gets harder and harder to be successful on just pure hockey. Every year there's new shennanigans added to the mix to counter hockey plays. It's why those buddies don't play the game anymore. I think the only one that still plays regularly is Pengman19.
  • VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    The AI is bad and has 0 sense so they boost all of their abilities 700% they can pick off passes that they have no business getting, they can hit you while you bounce off them, they can make shots from angles humans can't, they track down the puck with 0 error in their line. When you play with them you notice their lack of logic. When you play against them you notice just HOW much better they are in their abilities.

    The only thing the AI is good at is reaction times. They are nearly at Goku Ultra Instinct Mastered levels of reactions. The other thing they are really good at is recovering pucks:





    This is why people call out "ice tilt" or that the AI is "op"... This is why the "top" players keep calling out to have the AI nerfed to crap when the user goes AFK. This is RIDICULOUS! Look at how many times I get the puck only to see it instantly recovered by the AI.

    Gawd, EA...

    Yup. AI will pretty much always beat you in a foot race, a stick battle, a board pin and shadow your movements like no other.

    For the rest, they are sub-par pretty much in every category except for shot reaction speed. The second, and I mean literally the second an angle opens up for a shot on net, it is fired. They rarely miss too. On the other hand, they totally suck at breakaways as all they do is shoot. Once in every blue moon for some reason, they will deke. But when I play goalie and I see the AI come in on a breakaway, I am not stressed in any way at all. I just come to the top of the crease and wait for the shot which fails 99% of the time.

    you pretty much just described why a team of good players easily beats CPU. you work to take away passing and shooting lanes and they are lost. they will possess the puck pretty well but in general if you dont get anxious and take the few things they are good at away they will do crazy stuff with the puck and sometimes just turn it over or take bad shots. on defense they are horrible if you work together as a team.

    in drop ins I would take them all day. in club it just depends on the quality of teams you play on.

    If you work to take away passing and shooting lanes of real people they become lost as well haha

    Meh, mostly true.

    There are a ton of one trick ponies out there. They usually don't pass all that much and either try to ballerina skate to the net, or twirl in the corners to bait you away from the crease. Shut down the twirloramas and don't chase in the corners and you can almost see them thinking and trying to figure out what to do. Most times they just start chucking pucks cross crease without any passing plays and turn it over, or they just insist on using the same fail plays even though you have clearly caught on and adapted to their play. These guys do not use "hockey" plays because I am sure their success rate on average is very high in dropins.
  • I would love to see the AI super boosts gone. Or at least allow my CPU teammates offline to use the “stick mirror” technology the CPU AI uses so they can actually find open ice when I’m on offense.

    It’s really frustrating watching the CPU AI send two guys in when the puck is pinned and actually support their teammates while your AI teammates stand in their pre-designated spots on the ice waiting for the user to babysit them. Not to mention the fact that if you switch off the guy pinning the CPU opponent he lets go of the pin, making your player switch be completely for nothing as the puck carrier has now skated away.

    Just little things like that would go along way in making the offline gameplay drastically improved! It’s so so close to being an incredible experience with sliders, give us the final push haha!
  • VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    The AI is bad and has 0 sense so they boost all of their abilities 700% they can pick off passes that they have no business getting, they can hit you while you bounce off them, they can make shots from angles humans can't, they track down the puck with 0 error in their line. When you play with them you notice their lack of logic. When you play against them you notice just HOW much better they are in their abilities.

    The only thing the AI is good at is reaction times. They are nearly at Goku Ultra Instinct Mastered levels of reactions. The other thing they are really good at is recovering pucks:





    This is why people call out "ice tilt" or that the AI is "op"... This is why the "top" players keep calling out to have the AI nerfed to crap when the user goes AFK. This is RIDICULOUS! Look at how many times I get the puck only to see it instantly recovered by the AI.

    Gawd, EA...

    Yup. AI will pretty much always beat you in a foot race, a stick battle, a board pin and shadow your movements like no other.

    For the rest, they are sub-par pretty much in every category except for shot reaction speed. The second, and I mean literally the second an angle opens up for a shot on net, it is fired. They rarely miss too. On the other hand, they totally suck at breakaways as all they do is shoot. Once in every blue moon for some reason, they will deke. But when I play goalie and I see the AI come in on a breakaway, I am not stressed in any way at all. I just come to the top of the crease and wait for the shot which fails 99% of the time.

    you pretty much just described why a team of good players easily beats CPU. you work to take away passing and shooting lanes and they are lost. they will possess the puck pretty well but in general if you dont get anxious and take the few things they are good at away they will do crazy stuff with the puck and sometimes just turn it over or take bad shots. on defense they are horrible if you work together as a team.

    in drop ins I would take them all day. in club it just depends on the quality of teams you play on.

    If you work to take away passing and shooting lanes of real people they become lost as well haha

    Meh, mostly true.

    There are a ton of one trick ponies out there. They usually don't pass all that much and either try to ballerina skate to the net, or twirl in the corners to bait you away from the crease. Shut down the twirloramas and don't chase in the corners and you can almost see them thinking and trying to figure out what to do. Most times they just start chucking pucks cross crease without any passing plays and turn it over, or they just insist on using the same fail plays even though you have clearly caught on and adapted to their play. These guys do not use "hockey" plays because I am sure their success rate on average is very high in dropins.

    the key piece you are missing here (and is missed quite often) it has less to do with what that puck carrier is doing. Almost everything to do with what the other players are doing without the puck. (not saying you dont know this just that you didn't state it)

    one player can make a difference for sure but puck movement only works if the entire team knows how to create space and scoring chances. the better your opponent is the harder that will be obviously.
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