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This Game & The Support Is Absolute Trash

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  • EA_Aljo
    3229 posts EA Community Manager
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    TheMajjam wrote: »
    Issue 1: When the game decides you're going to lose no matter what. As a team that's 250-30-12, I think we know when we're outplaying another team, matched evenly, or being dominated. We are a team that uses position, on point passes, and one-timers to score. Here's a recent game loss coming off a 14+ win streak. With this game, we were going to lose this game no matter what.

    There is no DDA. Your top 20 placement is not because the computer chooses your team win the majority of your games. If you really think this happens, start up a game and have everyone on your team put down your controllers and see how the game plays out.

    Like this:

    https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/venom3o99/video/90638825

    https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/venom3o99/video/90638776

    https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/venom3o99/video/90638941

    That's how the game plays out. Well... to everyone except yourself, I guess. Everyone else bought the bad version of EA's NHL 20 it seems.

    My point was that playing the game is what gets you wins or losses. The computer isn't deciding who's going to win and then scripting the outcome. When someone says they knew they were going to lose, that was because they gave up. It wasn't because the game thought a 14+ win streak was too much and it was time for a loss.

    If DDA were real, it wouldn't matter what you did with your controller as the game would play for you.

    Hmmmm.

    DDA would not simply mean you put the controller down and still win. Not sure why you're going to that extreme in your explanation. DDA could simply be your opponent's goalie gets a decent boost while your goalie looks like a noob or something along those lines, but I don't believe in DDA or tilt. I do believe something is altering the intent of the programming though. Whether that be servers, or maybe even the ISP's themselves, but there is something that could give the impression that tilt exists and I don't think that could be denied at this point.

    In fact, over the years I have played goalie more than enough to tell you that within the first 3 shots in the game I know if I will struggle or have fun. And I also see it in the AI goalies. I also see it when I play D. There are games where it seems any puck in my vicinity will get picked up and other games it seems I couldn't intercept the worst of passes. Don't know the cause and at this point, I couldn't really care as I do not see a fix in the foreseeable future or anytime soon. But, when someone says they knew they were going to lose, it is because of what I stated above and not because they "gave up". There are times it seems you get burned regardless if you did the right thing or not, and other times it seems you can be rewarded for the dumbest of plays/choices on the ice.

    I went to that extreme because it's also the extreme people go to here. When someone says the game is choosing them to lose, that means you really don't have control over the outcome. If you didn't, and the game just wanted you to win or lose, regardless of how you played, you'd be able to step away and let the game play itself.

    There are times I go down by a couple goals in the first few minutes. It's hard not to think the game is out to make you lose when that happens. Very frequently though, I'm able to come back and make a good game out of it. I don't think the computer is thinking, well, it's probably his turn to lose so let's make the other guy pick up more turnovers, skate faster, take less penalties, etc. There is absolutely nothing built into the game that manipulates the play to give one side an unfair advantage. Dumb plays and flukey goals happen in the real world too. That's not exactly exclusive to this game.

    I didn't go to any extremes to get my point across and if more people did that, then eventually there wouldn't be any extremes to go to, but I digress.

    I see your point and can agree to it, but I don't understand why you took time to explain to me why they game isn't out to get me or give me a loss when I specifically said I do not believe in tilt or DDA.

    There would be less extreme viewpoints if the people who defend this game would just pick a side and stick to it.

    For example, if we argue that in the real NHL, certain types of shots wouldn't get past a goaltender, their reply is that it's just a video game, not real life. Then in another point, we argue that certain things seemed contrived or forced leading to unrealistic results, but they reply "well it happens in the real NHL too".

    So which one is it? Is it real? Is it not? If it's supposed to emulate real life, fine. Just say so, let's all stop arguing with each other and try to, all of us, the Devs and the Community together, try to bring this game to the realism it needs to be to be enjoyed. If it's supposed to be "just a game", that's fine to. But say so, change the name to "Don Cherry's Rock'em, Sock'em Hockey feat. the NHL" and let's run with it. No more arguments, because we know which direction the game is going into.

    But for the love of baby Jeebus, I just want them to pick a side!!!!

    What kind of shots wouldn't get past a real goaltender? With the exception of a glitch where the puck passes through an object, what shots could never be scored? I assume you've watched a lot of hockey over the years and there have been many highly unusual goals. Keep in mind, there are thousands upon thousands of more games played in the video game in a year than there are in real hockey. You're bound to see more of those goals that you feel would never get past a goaltender. Speaking of which, what goals are you seeing that never would score in a real game? If you're talking about shots from the blue line you've mentioned previously, those do happen in real games.
  • EA_Aljo wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    TheMajjam wrote: »
    Issue 1: When the game decides you're going to lose no matter what. As a team that's 250-30-12, I think we know when we're outplaying another team, matched evenly, or being dominated. We are a team that uses position, on point passes, and one-timers to score. Here's a recent game loss coming off a 14+ win streak. With this game, we were going to lose this game no matter what.

    There is no DDA. Your top 20 placement is not because the computer chooses your team win the majority of your games. If you really think this happens, start up a game and have everyone on your team put down your controllers and see how the game plays out.

    Like this:

    https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/venom3o99/video/90638825

    https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/venom3o99/video/90638776

    https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/venom3o99/video/90638941

    That's how the game plays out. Well... to everyone except yourself, I guess. Everyone else bought the bad version of EA's NHL 20 it seems.

    My point was that playing the game is what gets you wins or losses. The computer isn't deciding who's going to win and then scripting the outcome. When someone says they knew they were going to lose, that was because they gave up. It wasn't because the game thought a 14+ win streak was too much and it was time for a loss.

    If DDA were real, it wouldn't matter what you did with your controller as the game would play for you.

    Hmmmm.

    DDA would not simply mean you put the controller down and still win. Not sure why you're going to that extreme in your explanation. DDA could simply be your opponent's goalie gets a decent boost while your goalie looks like a noob or something along those lines, but I don't believe in DDA or tilt. I do believe something is altering the intent of the programming though. Whether that be servers, or maybe even the ISP's themselves, but there is something that could give the impression that tilt exists and I don't think that could be denied at this point.

    In fact, over the years I have played goalie more than enough to tell you that within the first 3 shots in the game I know if I will struggle or have fun. And I also see it in the AI goalies. I also see it when I play D. There are games where it seems any puck in my vicinity will get picked up and other games it seems I couldn't intercept the worst of passes. Don't know the cause and at this point, I couldn't really care as I do not see a fix in the foreseeable future or anytime soon. But, when someone says they knew they were going to lose, it is because of what I stated above and not because they "gave up". There are times it seems you get burned regardless if you did the right thing or not, and other times it seems you can be rewarded for the dumbest of plays/choices on the ice.

    I went to that extreme because it's also the extreme people go to here. When someone says the game is choosing them to lose, that means you really don't have control over the outcome. If you didn't, and the game just wanted you to win or lose, regardless of how you played, you'd be able to step away and let the game play itself.

    There are times I go down by a couple goals in the first few minutes. It's hard not to think the game is out to make you lose when that happens. Very frequently though, I'm able to come back and make a good game out of it. I don't think the computer is thinking, well, it's probably his turn to lose so let's make the other guy pick up more turnovers, skate faster, take less penalties, etc. There is absolutely nothing built into the game that manipulates the play to give one side an unfair advantage. Dumb plays and flukey goals happen in the real world too. That's not exactly exclusive to this game.

    I didn't go to any extremes to get my point across and if more people did that, then eventually there wouldn't be any extremes to go to, but I digress.

    I see your point and can agree to it, but I don't understand why you took time to explain to me why they game isn't out to get me or give me a loss when I specifically said I do not believe in tilt or DDA.

    There would be less extreme viewpoints if the people who defend this game would just pick a side and stick to it.

    For example, if we argue that in the real NHL, certain types of shots wouldn't get past a goaltender, their reply is that it's just a video game, not real life. Then in another point, we argue that certain things seemed contrived or forced leading to unrealistic results, but they reply "well it happens in the real NHL too".

    So which one is it? Is it real? Is it not? If it's supposed to emulate real life, fine. Just say so, let's all stop arguing with each other and try to, all of us, the Devs and the Community together, try to bring this game to the realism it needs to be to be enjoyed. If it's supposed to be "just a game", that's fine to. But say so, change the name to "Don Cherry's Rock'em, Sock'em Hockey feat. the NHL" and let's run with it. No more arguments, because we know which direction the game is going into.

    But for the love of baby Jeebus, I just want them to pick a side!!!!

    What kind of shots wouldn't get past a real goaltender? With the exception of a glitch where the puck passes through an object, what shots could never be scored? I assume you've watched a lot of hockey over the years and there have been many highly unusual goals. Keep in mind, there are thousands upon thousands of more games played in the video game in a year than there are in real hockey. You're bound to see more of those goals that you feel would never get past a goaltender. Speaking of which, what goals are you seeing that never would score in a real game? If you're talking about shots from the blue line you've mentioned previously, those do happen in real games.

    I don't really see why people use the "it happens in real hockey too" argument when the game's goalies are not even close to being as intuitive or agile as their real-life counterparts and also how offensive ratings and skills are inflated for 4 minute periods.

    I can rub out a player on the boards, and so can NHL players. Why can't we do this in the game? See? Using "real hockey" is not always a valid reasoning and honestly, I don't think we should be using it as a comparison unless you are talking about trades, or rules or something along those lines. This game isn't striving to be a 1:1 reproduction so real life hockey doesn't apply, imo.
  • VeNOM2099
    3178 posts Member
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    TheMajjam wrote: »
    Issue 1: When the game decides you're going to lose no matter what. As a team that's 250-30-12, I think we know when we're outplaying another team, matched evenly, or being dominated. We are a team that uses position, on point passes, and one-timers to score. Here's a recent game loss coming off a 14+ win streak. With this game, we were going to lose this game no matter what.

    There is no DDA. Your top 20 placement is not because the computer chooses your team win the majority of your games. If you really think this happens, start up a game and have everyone on your team put down your controllers and see how the game plays out.

    Like this:

    https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/venom3o99/video/90638825

    https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/venom3o99/video/90638776

    https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/venom3o99/video/90638941

    That's how the game plays out. Well... to everyone except yourself, I guess. Everyone else bought the bad version of EA's NHL 20 it seems.

    My point was that playing the game is what gets you wins or losses. The computer isn't deciding who's going to win and then scripting the outcome. When someone says they knew they were going to lose, that was because they gave up. It wasn't because the game thought a 14+ win streak was too much and it was time for a loss.

    If DDA were real, it wouldn't matter what you did with your controller as the game would play for you.

    Hmmmm.

    DDA would not simply mean you put the controller down and still win. Not sure why you're going to that extreme in your explanation. DDA could simply be your opponent's goalie gets a decent boost while your goalie looks like a noob or something along those lines, but I don't believe in DDA or tilt. I do believe something is altering the intent of the programming though. Whether that be servers, or maybe even the ISP's themselves, but there is something that could give the impression that tilt exists and I don't think that could be denied at this point.

    In fact, over the years I have played goalie more than enough to tell you that within the first 3 shots in the game I know if I will struggle or have fun. And I also see it in the AI goalies. I also see it when I play D. There are games where it seems any puck in my vicinity will get picked up and other games it seems I couldn't intercept the worst of passes. Don't know the cause and at this point, I couldn't really care as I do not see a fix in the foreseeable future or anytime soon. But, when someone says they knew they were going to lose, it is because of what I stated above and not because they "gave up". There are times it seems you get burned regardless if you did the right thing or not, and other times it seems you can be rewarded for the dumbest of plays/choices on the ice.

    I went to that extreme because it's also the extreme people go to here. When someone says the game is choosing them to lose, that means you really don't have control over the outcome. If you didn't, and the game just wanted you to win or lose, regardless of how you played, you'd be able to step away and let the game play itself.

    There are times I go down by a couple goals in the first few minutes. It's hard not to think the game is out to make you lose when that happens. Very frequently though, I'm able to come back and make a good game out of it. I don't think the computer is thinking, well, it's probably his turn to lose so let's make the other guy pick up more turnovers, skate faster, take less penalties, etc. There is absolutely nothing built into the game that manipulates the play to give one side an unfair advantage. Dumb plays and flukey goals happen in the real world too. That's not exactly exclusive to this game.

    I didn't go to any extremes to get my point across and if more people did that, then eventually there wouldn't be any extremes to go to, but I digress.

    I see your point and can agree to it, but I don't understand why you took time to explain to me why they game isn't out to get me or give me a loss when I specifically said I do not believe in tilt or DDA.

    There would be less extreme viewpoints if the people who defend this game would just pick a side and stick to it.

    For example, if we argue that in the real NHL, certain types of shots wouldn't get past a goaltender, their reply is that it's just a video game, not real life. Then in another point, we argue that certain things seemed contrived or forced leading to unrealistic results, but they reply "well it happens in the real NHL too".

    So which one is it? Is it real? Is it not? If it's supposed to emulate real life, fine. Just say so, let's all stop arguing with each other and try to, all of us, the Devs and the Community together, try to bring this game to the realism it needs to be to be enjoyed. If it's supposed to be "just a game", that's fine to. But say so, change the name to "Don Cherry's Rock'em, Sock'em Hockey feat. the NHL" and let's run with it. No more arguments, because we know which direction the game is going into.

    But for the love of baby Jeebus, I just want them to pick a side!!!!

    What kind of shots wouldn't get past a real goaltender? With the exception of a glitch where the puck passes through an object, what shots could never be scored? I assume you've watched a lot of hockey over the years and there have been many highly unusual goals. Keep in mind, there are thousands upon thousands of more games played in the video game in a year than there are in real hockey. You're bound to see more of those goals that you feel would never get past a goaltender. Speaking of which, what goals are you seeing that never would score in a real game? If you're talking about shots from the blue line you've mentioned previously, those do happen in real games.

    I don't really see why people use the "it happens in real hockey too" argument when the game's goalies are not even close to being as intuitive or agile as their real-life counterparts and also how offensive ratings and skills are inflated for 4 minute periods.

    I can rub out a player on the boards, and so can NHL players. Why can't we do this in the game? See? Using "real hockey" is not always a valid reasoning and honestly, I don't think we should be using it as a comparison unless you are talking about trades, or rules or something along those lines. This game isn't striving to be a 1:1 reproduction so real life hockey doesn't apply, imo.

    Well said. The game isn't a 1:1 reproduction of NHL hockey. It's not even 1:8 of NHL hockey. So why are we bringing this into the equation?

    @EA_Aljo I haven't just "watched" a lot of hockey, I played it for 25 years. On an actual ice surface for an actual local team here in Montreal. I wasn't a superstar Goalie, but I was pretty decent and always top 10 in my league, maybe top 5 in my final two seasons out of 15 or so teams. As a goalie, I have a particular view on goaltending in this game. As a videogame, there are certain shots that are more disposed (shall we say) to find the back of the net in this game. That's all good and dandy, but it's too easy to exploit such flaws and run away with a game simple because you "found the sweet spot". This is akin in other videogames to having a weapon that's overpowered or finding a "glitch" on the map that allows you to escape harm. In another video game, when an exploit or something abusable is found, regardless of how "realistic" or "fun" it might be to keep it in, it's removed to keep things fair.

    As I said in the other thread; let's try to pick a side. Realistic or not? One or the other, not both.
  • Just the other day in drop-ins a guy scored from their blue line by banking it off the boards into the back of the goalie at the post. literally in the next game a player in clubs with 1,300 goals and all the puck luck in the world flubbed a pass in the neutral zone and the goalie purposely angled his stick so it would just trickle five-hole; that game lasted 2 or 3 OT and had to be decided with that.

    You already removed broken glass, hitting after the whistles, broken sticks etc for disrupting the flow and angering the fans - I'm sure you can find a way to tighten the goalies five-hole
  • EA_Aljo
    3229 posts EA Community Manager
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    TheMajjam wrote: »
    Issue 1: When the game decides you're going to lose no matter what. As a team that's 250-30-12, I think we know when we're outplaying another team, matched evenly, or being dominated. We are a team that uses position, on point passes, and one-timers to score. Here's a recent game loss coming off a 14+ win streak. With this game, we were going to lose this game no matter what.

    There is no DDA. Your top 20 placement is not because the computer chooses your team win the majority of your games. If you really think this happens, start up a game and have everyone on your team put down your controllers and see how the game plays out.

    Like this:

    https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/venom3o99/video/90638825

    https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/venom3o99/video/90638776

    https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/venom3o99/video/90638941

    That's how the game plays out. Well... to everyone except yourself, I guess. Everyone else bought the bad version of EA's NHL 20 it seems.

    My point was that playing the game is what gets you wins or losses. The computer isn't deciding who's going to win and then scripting the outcome. When someone says they knew they were going to lose, that was because they gave up. It wasn't because the game thought a 14+ win streak was too much and it was time for a loss.

    If DDA were real, it wouldn't matter what you did with your controller as the game would play for you.

    Hmmmm.

    DDA would not simply mean you put the controller down and still win. Not sure why you're going to that extreme in your explanation. DDA could simply be your opponent's goalie gets a decent boost while your goalie looks like a noob or something along those lines, but I don't believe in DDA or tilt. I do believe something is altering the intent of the programming though. Whether that be servers, or maybe even the ISP's themselves, but there is something that could give the impression that tilt exists and I don't think that could be denied at this point.

    In fact, over the years I have played goalie more than enough to tell you that within the first 3 shots in the game I know if I will struggle or have fun. And I also see it in the AI goalies. I also see it when I play D. There are games where it seems any puck in my vicinity will get picked up and other games it seems I couldn't intercept the worst of passes. Don't know the cause and at this point, I couldn't really care as I do not see a fix in the foreseeable future or anytime soon. But, when someone says they knew they were going to lose, it is because of what I stated above and not because they "gave up". There are times it seems you get burned regardless if you did the right thing or not, and other times it seems you can be rewarded for the dumbest of plays/choices on the ice.

    I went to that extreme because it's also the extreme people go to here. When someone says the game is choosing them to lose, that means you really don't have control over the outcome. If you didn't, and the game just wanted you to win or lose, regardless of how you played, you'd be able to step away and let the game play itself.

    There are times I go down by a couple goals in the first few minutes. It's hard not to think the game is out to make you lose when that happens. Very frequently though, I'm able to come back and make a good game out of it. I don't think the computer is thinking, well, it's probably his turn to lose so let's make the other guy pick up more turnovers, skate faster, take less penalties, etc. There is absolutely nothing built into the game that manipulates the play to give one side an unfair advantage. Dumb plays and flukey goals happen in the real world too. That's not exactly exclusive to this game.

    I didn't go to any extremes to get my point across and if more people did that, then eventually there wouldn't be any extremes to go to, but I digress.

    I see your point and can agree to it, but I don't understand why you took time to explain to me why they game isn't out to get me or give me a loss when I specifically said I do not believe in tilt or DDA.

    There would be less extreme viewpoints if the people who defend this game would just pick a side and stick to it.

    For example, if we argue that in the real NHL, certain types of shots wouldn't get past a goaltender, their reply is that it's just a video game, not real life. Then in another point, we argue that certain things seemed contrived or forced leading to unrealistic results, but they reply "well it happens in the real NHL too".

    So which one is it? Is it real? Is it not? If it's supposed to emulate real life, fine. Just say so, let's all stop arguing with each other and try to, all of us, the Devs and the Community together, try to bring this game to the realism it needs to be to be enjoyed. If it's supposed to be "just a game", that's fine to. But say so, change the name to "Don Cherry's Rock'em, Sock'em Hockey feat. the NHL" and let's run with it. No more arguments, because we know which direction the game is going into.

    But for the love of baby Jeebus, I just want them to pick a side!!!!

    What kind of shots wouldn't get past a real goaltender? With the exception of a glitch where the puck passes through an object, what shots could never be scored? I assume you've watched a lot of hockey over the years and there have been many highly unusual goals. Keep in mind, there are thousands upon thousands of more games played in the video game in a year than there are in real hockey. You're bound to see more of those goals that you feel would never get past a goaltender. Speaking of which, what goals are you seeing that never would score in a real game? If you're talking about shots from the blue line you've mentioned previously, those do happen in real games.

    I don't really see why people use the "it happens in real hockey too" argument when the game's goalies are not even close to being as intuitive or agile as their real-life counterparts and also how offensive ratings and skills are inflated for 4 minute periods.

    I can rub out a player on the boards, and so can NHL players. Why can't we do this in the game? See? Using "real hockey" is not always a valid reasoning and honestly, I don't think we should be using it as a comparison unless you are talking about trades, or rules or something along those lines. This game isn't striving to be a 1:1 reproduction so real life hockey doesn't apply, imo.

    Well said. The game isn't a 1:1 reproduction of NHL hockey. It's not even 1:8 of NHL hockey. So why are we bringing this into the equation?

    @EA_Aljo I haven't just "watched" a lot of hockey, I played it for 25 years. On an actual ice surface for an actual local team here in Montreal. I wasn't a superstar Goalie, but I was pretty decent and always top 10 in my league, maybe top 5 in my final two seasons out of 15 or so teams. As a goalie, I have a particular view on goaltending in this game. As a videogame, there are certain shots that are more disposed (shall we say) to find the back of the net in this game. That's all good and dandy, but it's too easy to exploit such flaws and run away with a game simple because you "found the sweet spot". This is akin in other videogames to having a weapon that's overpowered or finding a "glitch" on the map that allows you to escape harm. In another video game, when an exploit or something abusable is found, regardless of how "realistic" or "fun" it might be to keep it in, it's removed to keep things fair.

    As I said in the other thread; let's try to pick a side. Realistic or not? One or the other, not both.

    We've never said this is an exact 1:1 recreation of hockey. There's a lot of sim aspects to it, but if it were fully sim, that would cause a lot of frustration for a huge amount of the fanbase. That's something Ben would need to discuss at greater length.

    As far as sweet spots for shots go, I'll say it again, they can be defended. I know you also need to defend the play, but you're specifically mentioning shots. If you continually shut someone down, chances are good they'll try to find another way to score.

    What would you suggest? Shots not be able to be scored from the blue line? Take away cross-crease one timers? Take away short side wristers? Would you rather a goalie pick up on someone taking the same shot repeatedly, cheat to that side and leave the other side open for an easy one timer? How would you change goalies so they only let in good shots? Even if they did only let in good shots, isn't that unrealistic as bad shots score with some regularity in real hockey?
  • I may not agree with some of the answers, but appreciate you guys at least engaging the community.
  • VeNOM2099
    3178 posts Member
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    TheMajjam wrote: »
    Issue 1: When the game decides you're going to lose no matter what. As a team that's 250-30-12, I think we know when we're outplaying another team, matched evenly, or being dominated. We are a team that uses position, on point passes, and one-timers to score. Here's a recent game loss coming off a 14+ win streak. With this game, we were going to lose this game no matter what.

    There is no DDA. Your top 20 placement is not because the computer chooses your team win the majority of your games. If you really think this happens, start up a game and have everyone on your team put down your controllers and see how the game plays out.

    Like this:

    https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/venom3o99/video/90638825

    https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/venom3o99/video/90638776

    https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/venom3o99/video/90638941

    That's how the game plays out. Well... to everyone except yourself, I guess. Everyone else bought the bad version of EA's NHL 20 it seems.

    My point was that playing the game is what gets you wins or losses. The computer isn't deciding who's going to win and then scripting the outcome. When someone says they knew they were going to lose, that was because they gave up. It wasn't because the game thought a 14+ win streak was too much and it was time for a loss.

    If DDA were real, it wouldn't matter what you did with your controller as the game would play for you.

    Hmmmm.

    DDA would not simply mean you put the controller down and still win. Not sure why you're going to that extreme in your explanation. DDA could simply be your opponent's goalie gets a decent boost while your goalie looks like a noob or something along those lines, but I don't believe in DDA or tilt. I do believe something is altering the intent of the programming though. Whether that be servers, or maybe even the ISP's themselves, but there is something that could give the impression that tilt exists and I don't think that could be denied at this point.

    In fact, over the years I have played goalie more than enough to tell you that within the first 3 shots in the game I know if I will struggle or have fun. And I also see it in the AI goalies. I also see it when I play D. There are games where it seems any puck in my vicinity will get picked up and other games it seems I couldn't intercept the worst of passes. Don't know the cause and at this point, I couldn't really care as I do not see a fix in the foreseeable future or anytime soon. But, when someone says they knew they were going to lose, it is because of what I stated above and not because they "gave up". There are times it seems you get burned regardless if you did the right thing or not, and other times it seems you can be rewarded for the dumbest of plays/choices on the ice.

    I went to that extreme because it's also the extreme people go to here. When someone says the game is choosing them to lose, that means you really don't have control over the outcome. If you didn't, and the game just wanted you to win or lose, regardless of how you played, you'd be able to step away and let the game play itself.

    There are times I go down by a couple goals in the first few minutes. It's hard not to think the game is out to make you lose when that happens. Very frequently though, I'm able to come back and make a good game out of it. I don't think the computer is thinking, well, it's probably his turn to lose so let's make the other guy pick up more turnovers, skate faster, take less penalties, etc. There is absolutely nothing built into the game that manipulates the play to give one side an unfair advantage. Dumb plays and flukey goals happen in the real world too. That's not exactly exclusive to this game.

    I didn't go to any extremes to get my point across and if more people did that, then eventually there wouldn't be any extremes to go to, but I digress.

    I see your point and can agree to it, but I don't understand why you took time to explain to me why they game isn't out to get me or give me a loss when I specifically said I do not believe in tilt or DDA.

    There would be less extreme viewpoints if the people who defend this game would just pick a side and stick to it.

    For example, if we argue that in the real NHL, certain types of shots wouldn't get past a goaltender, their reply is that it's just a video game, not real life. Then in another point, we argue that certain things seemed contrived or forced leading to unrealistic results, but they reply "well it happens in the real NHL too".

    So which one is it? Is it real? Is it not? If it's supposed to emulate real life, fine. Just say so, let's all stop arguing with each other and try to, all of us, the Devs and the Community together, try to bring this game to the realism it needs to be to be enjoyed. If it's supposed to be "just a game", that's fine to. But say so, change the name to "Don Cherry's Rock'em, Sock'em Hockey feat. the NHL" and let's run with it. No more arguments, because we know which direction the game is going into.

    But for the love of baby Jeebus, I just want them to pick a side!!!!

    What kind of shots wouldn't get past a real goaltender? With the exception of a glitch where the puck passes through an object, what shots could never be scored? I assume you've watched a lot of hockey over the years and there have been many highly unusual goals. Keep in mind, there are thousands upon thousands of more games played in the video game in a year than there are in real hockey. You're bound to see more of those goals that you feel would never get past a goaltender. Speaking of which, what goals are you seeing that never would score in a real game? If you're talking about shots from the blue line you've mentioned previously, those do happen in real games.

    I don't really see why people use the "it happens in real hockey too" argument when the game's goalies are not even close to being as intuitive or agile as their real-life counterparts and also how offensive ratings and skills are inflated for 4 minute periods.

    I can rub out a player on the boards, and so can NHL players. Why can't we do this in the game? See? Using "real hockey" is not always a valid reasoning and honestly, I don't think we should be using it as a comparison unless you are talking about trades, or rules or something along those lines. This game isn't striving to be a 1:1 reproduction so real life hockey doesn't apply, imo.

    Well said. The game isn't a 1:1 reproduction of NHL hockey. It's not even 1:8 of NHL hockey. So why are we bringing this into the equation?

    @EA_Aljo I haven't just "watched" a lot of hockey, I played it for 25 years. On an actual ice surface for an actual local team here in Montreal. I wasn't a superstar Goalie, but I was pretty decent and always top 10 in my league, maybe top 5 in my final two seasons out of 15 or so teams. As a goalie, I have a particular view on goaltending in this game. As a videogame, there are certain shots that are more disposed (shall we say) to find the back of the net in this game. That's all good and dandy, but it's too easy to exploit such flaws and run away with a game simple because you "found the sweet spot". This is akin in other videogames to having a weapon that's overpowered or finding a "glitch" on the map that allows you to escape harm. In another video game, when an exploit or something abusable is found, regardless of how "realistic" or "fun" it might be to keep it in, it's removed to keep things fair.

    As I said in the other thread; let's try to pick a side. Realistic or not? One or the other, not both.

    We've never said this is an exact 1:1 recreation of hockey. There's a lot of sim aspects to it, but if it were fully sim, that would cause a lot of frustration for a huge amount of the fanbase. That's something Ben would need to discuss at greater length.

    As far as sweet spots for shots go, I'll say it again, they can be defended. I know you also need to defend the play, but you're specifically mentioning shots. If you continually shut someone down, chances are good they'll try to find another way to score.

    What would you suggest? Shots not be able to be scored from the blue line? Take away cross-crease one timers? Take away short side wristers? Would you rather a goalie pick up on someone taking the same shot repeatedly, cheat to that side and leave the other side open for an easy one timer? How would you change goalies so they only let in good shots? Even if they did only let in good shots, isn't that unrealistic as bad shots score with some regularity in real hockey?

    #1. Make goalies positionally aware. AI goalies in this game are so oblivious to where they are in relation to their net it's pitiful. So many times they are caught out of position on simple shots they should be saving. But at the same time they can make incredible spider-man saves when they actually ARE out of position.

    #2. Make goalies kick out more shots to the corners. It's too easy to force them to cough up juicy rebounds right in the slot, especially weak shots they should control.

    #3. Bring back goalie's effective save range from NHL 17, especially the human goalies. Make covering your angles have more of an impact on a goalie's save success, just like entering a "glide" gives a boost to a shooter's shot success. If a goalie sits back on his goal line in the middle of his net, for example, then he takes a hit in his save attributes and can whiff on a save attempt more often than a goalie who comes out to challenge the shot and is in good position to close the angles. At the same time, skaters have seen their agility boosted significantly but goalies are still slow and sluggish when moving. We can't keep up with the amount of lateral acceleration they have at the moment. Give us back our ability to make a limb save on reaction from in close.

    That alone will reduce the amount of goals per game by at least one or two. Instead of ending 8-6, they'll end 6-5 or 5-4. Is that so bad??

  • WainGretSki
    3660 posts Member
    edited March 2020
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    TheMajjam wrote: »
    Issue 1: When the game decides you're going to lose no matter what. As a team that's 250-30-12, I think we know when we're outplaying another team, matched evenly, or being dominated. We are a team that uses position, on point passes, and one-timers to score. Here's a recent game loss coming off a 14+ win streak. With this game, we were going to lose this game no matter what.

    There is no DDA. Your top 20 placement is not because the computer chooses your team win the majority of your games. If you really think this happens, start up a game and have everyone on your team put down your controllers and see how the game plays out.

    Like this:

    https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/venom3o99/video/90638825

    https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/venom3o99/video/90638776

    https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/venom3o99/video/90638941

    That's how the game plays out. Well... to everyone except yourself, I guess. Everyone else bought the bad version of EA's NHL 20 it seems.

    My point was that playing the game is what gets you wins or losses. The computer isn't deciding who's going to win and then scripting the outcome. When someone says they knew they were going to lose, that was because they gave up. It wasn't because the game thought a 14+ win streak was too much and it was time for a loss.

    If DDA were real, it wouldn't matter what you did with your controller as the game would play for you.

    Hmmmm.

    DDA would not simply mean you put the controller down and still win. Not sure why you're going to that extreme in your explanation. DDA could simply be your opponent's goalie gets a decent boost while your goalie looks like a noob or something along those lines, but I don't believe in DDA or tilt. I do believe something is altering the intent of the programming though. Whether that be servers, or maybe even the ISP's themselves, but there is something that could give the impression that tilt exists and I don't think that could be denied at this point.

    In fact, over the years I have played goalie more than enough to tell you that within the first 3 shots in the game I know if I will struggle or have fun. And I also see it in the AI goalies. I also see it when I play D. There are games where it seems any puck in my vicinity will get picked up and other games it seems I couldn't intercept the worst of passes. Don't know the cause and at this point, I couldn't really care as I do not see a fix in the foreseeable future or anytime soon. But, when someone says they knew they were going to lose, it is because of what I stated above and not because they "gave up". There are times it seems you get burned regardless if you did the right thing or not, and other times it seems you can be rewarded for the dumbest of plays/choices on the ice.

    I went to that extreme because it's also the extreme people go to here. When someone says the game is choosing them to lose, that means you really don't have control over the outcome. If you didn't, and the game just wanted you to win or lose, regardless of how you played, you'd be able to step away and let the game play itself.

    There are times I go down by a couple goals in the first few minutes. It's hard not to think the game is out to make you lose when that happens. Very frequently though, I'm able to come back and make a good game out of it. I don't think the computer is thinking, well, it's probably his turn to lose so let's make the other guy pick up more turnovers, skate faster, take less penalties, etc. There is absolutely nothing built into the game that manipulates the play to give one side an unfair advantage. Dumb plays and flukey goals happen in the real world too. That's not exactly exclusive to this game.

    I didn't go to any extremes to get my point across and if more people did that, then eventually there wouldn't be any extremes to go to, but I digress.

    I see your point and can agree to it, but I don't understand why you took time to explain to me why they game isn't out to get me or give me a loss when I specifically said I do not believe in tilt or DDA.

    There would be less extreme viewpoints if the people who defend this game would just pick a side and stick to it.

    For example, if we argue that in the real NHL, certain types of shots wouldn't get past a goaltender, their reply is that it's just a video game, not real life. Then in another point, we argue that certain things seemed contrived or forced leading to unrealistic results, but they reply "well it happens in the real NHL too".

    So which one is it? Is it real? Is it not? If it's supposed to emulate real life, fine. Just say so, let's all stop arguing with each other and try to, all of us, the Devs and the Community together, try to bring this game to the realism it needs to be to be enjoyed. If it's supposed to be "just a game", that's fine to. But say so, change the name to "Don Cherry's Rock'em, Sock'em Hockey feat. the NHL" and let's run with it. No more arguments, because we know which direction the game is going into.

    But for the love of baby Jeebus, I just want them to pick a side!!!!

    What kind of shots wouldn't get past a real goaltender? With the exception of a glitch where the puck passes through an object, what shots could never be scored? I assume you've watched a lot of hockey over the years and there have been many highly unusual goals. Keep in mind, there are thousands upon thousands of more games played in the video game in a year than there are in real hockey. You're bound to see more of those goals that you feel would never get past a goaltender. Speaking of which, what goals are you seeing that never would score in a real game? If you're talking about shots from the blue line you've mentioned previously, those do happen in real games.

    I don't really see why people use the "it happens in real hockey too" argument when the game's goalies are not even close to being as intuitive or agile as their real-life counterparts and also how offensive ratings and skills are inflated for 4 minute periods.

    I can rub out a player on the boards, and so can NHL players. Why can't we do this in the game? See? Using "real hockey" is not always a valid reasoning and honestly, I don't think we should be using it as a comparison unless you are talking about trades, or rules or something along those lines. This game isn't striving to be a 1:1 reproduction so real life hockey doesn't apply, imo.

    Well said. The game isn't a 1:1 reproduction of NHL hockey. It's not even 1:8 of NHL hockey. So why are we bringing this into the equation?

    @EA_Aljo I haven't just "watched" a lot of hockey, I played it for 25 years. On an actual ice surface for an actual local team here in Montreal. I wasn't a superstar Goalie, but I was pretty decent and always top 10 in my league, maybe top 5 in my final two seasons out of 15 or so teams. As a goalie, I have a particular view on goaltending in this game. As a videogame, there are certain shots that are more disposed (shall we say) to find the back of the net in this game. That's all good and dandy, but it's too easy to exploit such flaws and run away with a game simple because you "found the sweet spot". This is akin in other videogames to having a weapon that's overpowered or finding a "glitch" on the map that allows you to escape harm. In another video game, when an exploit or something abusable is found, regardless of how "realistic" or "fun" it might be to keep it in, it's removed to keep things fair.

    As I said in the other thread; let's try to pick a side. Realistic or not? One or the other, not both.

    We've never said this is an exact 1:1 recreation of hockey. There's a lot of sim aspects to it, but if it were fully sim, that would cause a lot of frustration for a huge amount of the fanbase. That's something Ben would need to discuss at greater length.

    As far as sweet spots for shots go, I'll say it again, they can be defended. I know you also need to defend the play, but you're specifically mentioning shots. If you continually shut someone down, chances are good they'll try to find another way to score.

    What would you suggest? Shots not be able to be scored from the blue line? Take away cross-crease one timers? Take away short side wristers? Would you rather a goalie pick up on someone taking the same shot repeatedly, cheat to that side and leave the other side open for an easy one timer? How would you change goalies so they only let in good shots? Even if they did only let in good shots, isn't that unrealistic as bad shots score with some regularity in real hockey?

    Whatever sim aspects this game tries to reproduce are simply cancelled out by all the "arcadism". Ever see an NHL player not take a hit because he was in the middle of an animation? Not me.

    Goalies are simply terrible in this game as they have no balance. As Venom said, they can consistently rob you on one-timers yet flub almost every shot top shelf on the glove said if you know that sweet spot near the faceoff circles. They are extremely predictable. You take any NHL goalie and if the opponent is consistently hogging the puck and trying to snipe top shelf or short side consistently, he will be shut down pretty easily. When a goalie is in position and settled, it is very hard to beat him and pretty much every single time. The best way to beat a goalie is to have him guessing on what the play will be, keep the puck moving to eventually create chaos and pull the goalie slightly out of position, take screened shots, etc etc. Pretty much everything that isn't in this game. And don't get me started on wraparounds as the goalies in this game are absolutely horrendous at it as if they weighed 700lbs and can barely skate.

    Pretty hard to balance the game when forwards shooting attributes and agility is through the roof to "compensate" for 4 minute periods. I just don't get why so much is arcade-like, yet D has to have some gimps or "realism" to it, just like goalies....

    This game should not be compared to real hockey to defend either the shortcomings or the money goals that are scored.

    As for what I would suggest for goalies..

    If the goalie is settled and in position, he should have a much higher chance to make the save. Just like in real life, if a player is much too close to the net, the goalie should be already dropping to his knees to make a blocking save and take away portions of the net. This could open up scoring chances for top shelf shots, or one-timers because the goalie is already dropped to his knees and committed to the carrier. That's where defense is supposed to be doing its job.

    The goalies should also have situational awareness. If there is no passing options, or if that option has a low percentage chance then yes, the goalie should play the carrier a little more aggressively. It would favor more passing and at that point it's up to the D to again, do its job. Sure, it's cool when a goalie does manage to save a one-timer, but with adequate D, the one-timer should not be an option therefore not making the goalie do extra work to make that great save. Coaches and teammates don't blame a goalie that let's a one-timer through because they know it's not the goalie's fault.
  • EA_Aljo
    3229 posts EA Community Manager
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    TheMajjam wrote: »
    Issue 1: When the game decides you're going to lose no matter what. As a team that's 250-30-12, I think we know when we're outplaying another team, matched evenly, or being dominated. We are a team that uses position, on point passes, and one-timers to score. Here's a recent game loss coming off a 14+ win streak. With this game, we were going to lose this game no matter what.

    There is no DDA. Your top 20 placement is not because the computer chooses your team win the majority of your games. If you really think this happens, start up a game and have everyone on your team put down your controllers and see how the game plays out.

    Like this:

    https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/venom3o99/video/90638825

    https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/venom3o99/video/90638776

    https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/venom3o99/video/90638941

    That's how the game plays out. Well... to everyone except yourself, I guess. Everyone else bought the bad version of EA's NHL 20 it seems.

    My point was that playing the game is what gets you wins or losses. The computer isn't deciding who's going to win and then scripting the outcome. When someone says they knew they were going to lose, that was because they gave up. It wasn't because the game thought a 14+ win streak was too much and it was time for a loss.

    If DDA were real, it wouldn't matter what you did with your controller as the game would play for you.

    Hmmmm.

    DDA would not simply mean you put the controller down and still win. Not sure why you're going to that extreme in your explanation. DDA could simply be your opponent's goalie gets a decent boost while your goalie looks like a noob or something along those lines, but I don't believe in DDA or tilt. I do believe something is altering the intent of the programming though. Whether that be servers, or maybe even the ISP's themselves, but there is something that could give the impression that tilt exists and I don't think that could be denied at this point.

    In fact, over the years I have played goalie more than enough to tell you that within the first 3 shots in the game I know if I will struggle or have fun. And I also see it in the AI goalies. I also see it when I play D. There are games where it seems any puck in my vicinity will get picked up and other games it seems I couldn't intercept the worst of passes. Don't know the cause and at this point, I couldn't really care as I do not see a fix in the foreseeable future or anytime soon. But, when someone says they knew they were going to lose, it is because of what I stated above and not because they "gave up". There are times it seems you get burned regardless if you did the right thing or not, and other times it seems you can be rewarded for the dumbest of plays/choices on the ice.

    I went to that extreme because it's also the extreme people go to here. When someone says the game is choosing them to lose, that means you really don't have control over the outcome. If you didn't, and the game just wanted you to win or lose, regardless of how you played, you'd be able to step away and let the game play itself.

    There are times I go down by a couple goals in the first few minutes. It's hard not to think the game is out to make you lose when that happens. Very frequently though, I'm able to come back and make a good game out of it. I don't think the computer is thinking, well, it's probably his turn to lose so let's make the other guy pick up more turnovers, skate faster, take less penalties, etc. There is absolutely nothing built into the game that manipulates the play to give one side an unfair advantage. Dumb plays and flukey goals happen in the real world too. That's not exactly exclusive to this game.

    I didn't go to any extremes to get my point across and if more people did that, then eventually there wouldn't be any extremes to go to, but I digress.

    I see your point and can agree to it, but I don't understand why you took time to explain to me why they game isn't out to get me or give me a loss when I specifically said I do not believe in tilt or DDA.

    There would be less extreme viewpoints if the people who defend this game would just pick a side and stick to it.

    For example, if we argue that in the real NHL, certain types of shots wouldn't get past a goaltender, their reply is that it's just a video game, not real life. Then in another point, we argue that certain things seemed contrived or forced leading to unrealistic results, but they reply "well it happens in the real NHL too".

    So which one is it? Is it real? Is it not? If it's supposed to emulate real life, fine. Just say so, let's all stop arguing with each other and try to, all of us, the Devs and the Community together, try to bring this game to the realism it needs to be to be enjoyed. If it's supposed to be "just a game", that's fine to. But say so, change the name to "Don Cherry's Rock'em, Sock'em Hockey feat. the NHL" and let's run with it. No more arguments, because we know which direction the game is going into.

    But for the love of baby Jeebus, I just want them to pick a side!!!!

    What kind of shots wouldn't get past a real goaltender? With the exception of a glitch where the puck passes through an object, what shots could never be scored? I assume you've watched a lot of hockey over the years and there have been many highly unusual goals. Keep in mind, there are thousands upon thousands of more games played in the video game in a year than there are in real hockey. You're bound to see more of those goals that you feel would never get past a goaltender. Speaking of which, what goals are you seeing that never would score in a real game? If you're talking about shots from the blue line you've mentioned previously, those do happen in real games.

    I don't really see why people use the "it happens in real hockey too" argument when the game's goalies are not even close to being as intuitive or agile as their real-life counterparts and also how offensive ratings and skills are inflated for 4 minute periods.

    I can rub out a player on the boards, and so can NHL players. Why can't we do this in the game? See? Using "real hockey" is not always a valid reasoning and honestly, I don't think we should be using it as a comparison unless you are talking about trades, or rules or something along those lines. This game isn't striving to be a 1:1 reproduction so real life hockey doesn't apply, imo.

    Well said. The game isn't a 1:1 reproduction of NHL hockey. It's not even 1:8 of NHL hockey. So why are we bringing this into the equation?

    @EA_Aljo I haven't just "watched" a lot of hockey, I played it for 25 years. On an actual ice surface for an actual local team here in Montreal. I wasn't a superstar Goalie, but I was pretty decent and always top 10 in my league, maybe top 5 in my final two seasons out of 15 or so teams. As a goalie, I have a particular view on goaltending in this game. As a videogame, there are certain shots that are more disposed (shall we say) to find the back of the net in this game. That's all good and dandy, but it's too easy to exploit such flaws and run away with a game simple because you "found the sweet spot". This is akin in other videogames to having a weapon that's overpowered or finding a "glitch" on the map that allows you to escape harm. In another video game, when an exploit or something abusable is found, regardless of how "realistic" or "fun" it might be to keep it in, it's removed to keep things fair.

    As I said in the other thread; let's try to pick a side. Realistic or not? One or the other, not both.

    We've never said this is an exact 1:1 recreation of hockey. There's a lot of sim aspects to it, but if it were fully sim, that would cause a lot of frustration for a huge amount of the fanbase. That's something Ben would need to discuss at greater length.

    As far as sweet spots for shots go, I'll say it again, they can be defended. I know you also need to defend the play, but you're specifically mentioning shots. If you continually shut someone down, chances are good they'll try to find another way to score.

    What would you suggest? Shots not be able to be scored from the blue line? Take away cross-crease one timers? Take away short side wristers? Would you rather a goalie pick up on someone taking the same shot repeatedly, cheat to that side and leave the other side open for an easy one timer? How would you change goalies so they only let in good shots? Even if they did only let in good shots, isn't that unrealistic as bad shots score with some regularity in real hockey?

    #1. Make goalies positionally aware. AI goalies in this game are so oblivious to where they are in relation to their net it's pitiful. So many times they are caught out of position on simple shots they should be saving. But at the same time they can make incredible spider-man saves when they actually ARE out of position.

    #2. Make goalies kick out more shots to the corners. It's too easy to force them to cough up juicy rebounds right in the slot, especially weak shots they should control.

    #3. Bring back goalie's effective save range from NHL 17, especially the human goalies. Make covering your angles have more of an impact on a goalie's save success, just like entering a "glide" gives a boost to a shooter's shot success. If a goalie sits back on his goal line in the middle of his net, for example, then he takes a hit in his save attributes and can whiff on a save attempt more often than a goalie who comes out to challenge the shot and is in good position to close the angles. At the same time, skaters have seen their agility boosted significantly but goalies are still slow and sluggish when moving. We can't keep up with the amount of lateral acceleration they have at the moment. Give us back our ability to make a limb save on reaction from in close.

    That alone will reduce the amount of goals per game by at least one or two. Instead of ending 8-6, they'll end 6-5 or 5-4. Is that so bad??

    Ben can provide more details on goalies, but if you have examples of goals that should be saves, that would probably help as well.

    Thanks for the feedback.
  • EA_Aljo
    3229 posts EA Community Manager
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    TheMajjam wrote: »
    Issue 1: When the game decides you're going to lose no matter what. As a team that's 250-30-12, I think we know when we're outplaying another team, matched evenly, or being dominated. We are a team that uses position, on point passes, and one-timers to score. Here's a recent game loss coming off a 14+ win streak. With this game, we were going to lose this game no matter what.

    There is no DDA. Your top 20 placement is not because the computer chooses your team win the majority of your games. If you really think this happens, start up a game and have everyone on your team put down your controllers and see how the game plays out.

    Like this:

    https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/venom3o99/video/90638825

    https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/venom3o99/video/90638776

    https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/venom3o99/video/90638941

    That's how the game plays out. Well... to everyone except yourself, I guess. Everyone else bought the bad version of EA's NHL 20 it seems.

    My point was that playing the game is what gets you wins or losses. The computer isn't deciding who's going to win and then scripting the outcome. When someone says they knew they were going to lose, that was because they gave up. It wasn't because the game thought a 14+ win streak was too much and it was time for a loss.

    If DDA were real, it wouldn't matter what you did with your controller as the game would play for you.

    Hmmmm.

    DDA would not simply mean you put the controller down and still win. Not sure why you're going to that extreme in your explanation. DDA could simply be your opponent's goalie gets a decent boost while your goalie looks like a noob or something along those lines, but I don't believe in DDA or tilt. I do believe something is altering the intent of the programming though. Whether that be servers, or maybe even the ISP's themselves, but there is something that could give the impression that tilt exists and I don't think that could be denied at this point.

    In fact, over the years I have played goalie more than enough to tell you that within the first 3 shots in the game I know if I will struggle or have fun. And I also see it in the AI goalies. I also see it when I play D. There are games where it seems any puck in my vicinity will get picked up and other games it seems I couldn't intercept the worst of passes. Don't know the cause and at this point, I couldn't really care as I do not see a fix in the foreseeable future or anytime soon. But, when someone says they knew they were going to lose, it is because of what I stated above and not because they "gave up". There are times it seems you get burned regardless if you did the right thing or not, and other times it seems you can be rewarded for the dumbest of plays/choices on the ice.

    I went to that extreme because it's also the extreme people go to here. When someone says the game is choosing them to lose, that means you really don't have control over the outcome. If you didn't, and the game just wanted you to win or lose, regardless of how you played, you'd be able to step away and let the game play itself.

    There are times I go down by a couple goals in the first few minutes. It's hard not to think the game is out to make you lose when that happens. Very frequently though, I'm able to come back and make a good game out of it. I don't think the computer is thinking, well, it's probably his turn to lose so let's make the other guy pick up more turnovers, skate faster, take less penalties, etc. There is absolutely nothing built into the game that manipulates the play to give one side an unfair advantage. Dumb plays and flukey goals happen in the real world too. That's not exactly exclusive to this game.

    I didn't go to any extremes to get my point across and if more people did that, then eventually there wouldn't be any extremes to go to, but I digress.

    I see your point and can agree to it, but I don't understand why you took time to explain to me why they game isn't out to get me or give me a loss when I specifically said I do not believe in tilt or DDA.

    There would be less extreme viewpoints if the people who defend this game would just pick a side and stick to it.

    For example, if we argue that in the real NHL, certain types of shots wouldn't get past a goaltender, their reply is that it's just a video game, not real life. Then in another point, we argue that certain things seemed contrived or forced leading to unrealistic results, but they reply "well it happens in the real NHL too".

    So which one is it? Is it real? Is it not? If it's supposed to emulate real life, fine. Just say so, let's all stop arguing with each other and try to, all of us, the Devs and the Community together, try to bring this game to the realism it needs to be to be enjoyed. If it's supposed to be "just a game", that's fine to. But say so, change the name to "Don Cherry's Rock'em, Sock'em Hockey feat. the NHL" and let's run with it. No more arguments, because we know which direction the game is going into.

    But for the love of baby Jeebus, I just want them to pick a side!!!!

    What kind of shots wouldn't get past a real goaltender? With the exception of a glitch where the puck passes through an object, what shots could never be scored? I assume you've watched a lot of hockey over the years and there have been many highly unusual goals. Keep in mind, there are thousands upon thousands of more games played in the video game in a year than there are in real hockey. You're bound to see more of those goals that you feel would never get past a goaltender. Speaking of which, what goals are you seeing that never would score in a real game? If you're talking about shots from the blue line you've mentioned previously, those do happen in real games.

    I don't really see why people use the "it happens in real hockey too" argument when the game's goalies are not even close to being as intuitive or agile as their real-life counterparts and also how offensive ratings and skills are inflated for 4 minute periods.

    I can rub out a player on the boards, and so can NHL players. Why can't we do this in the game? See? Using "real hockey" is not always a valid reasoning and honestly, I don't think we should be using it as a comparison unless you are talking about trades, or rules or something along those lines. This game isn't striving to be a 1:1 reproduction so real life hockey doesn't apply, imo.

    Well said. The game isn't a 1:1 reproduction of NHL hockey. It's not even 1:8 of NHL hockey. So why are we bringing this into the equation?

    @EA_Aljo I haven't just "watched" a lot of hockey, I played it for 25 years. On an actual ice surface for an actual local team here in Montreal. I wasn't a superstar Goalie, but I was pretty decent and always top 10 in my league, maybe top 5 in my final two seasons out of 15 or so teams. As a goalie, I have a particular view on goaltending in this game. As a videogame, there are certain shots that are more disposed (shall we say) to find the back of the net in this game. That's all good and dandy, but it's too easy to exploit such flaws and run away with a game simple because you "found the sweet spot". This is akin in other videogames to having a weapon that's overpowered or finding a "glitch" on the map that allows you to escape harm. In another video game, when an exploit or something abusable is found, regardless of how "realistic" or "fun" it might be to keep it in, it's removed to keep things fair.

    As I said in the other thread; let's try to pick a side. Realistic or not? One or the other, not both.

    We've never said this is an exact 1:1 recreation of hockey. There's a lot of sim aspects to it, but if it were fully sim, that would cause a lot of frustration for a huge amount of the fanbase. That's something Ben would need to discuss at greater length.

    As far as sweet spots for shots go, I'll say it again, they can be defended. I know you also need to defend the play, but you're specifically mentioning shots. If you continually shut someone down, chances are good they'll try to find another way to score.

    What would you suggest? Shots not be able to be scored from the blue line? Take away cross-crease one timers? Take away short side wristers? Would you rather a goalie pick up on someone taking the same shot repeatedly, cheat to that side and leave the other side open for an easy one timer? How would you change goalies so they only let in good shots? Even if they did only let in good shots, isn't that unrealistic as bad shots score with some regularity in real hockey?

    Whatever sim aspects this game tries to reproduce are simply cancelled out by all the "arcadism". Ever see an NHL player not take a hit because he was in the middle of an animation? Not me.

    When are you seeing animations not being interrupted from a hit?
  • EA_Aljo wrote: »
    For the player likeness and face scans could you guys also not just copy the template that people provide over at Operation Sports to get more player likeness? You could literally let the fans do the work so some player at least somewhat resembles their real life counterpart.

    Yea good idea. Let the die-hard fans create the faces and EA could simply implement them. Win-win if you ask me.

    It's really not that easy. We can't just take player-created content and use it. Unless it was created using the exact same tools we do, chances are good there would be a lot of work involved with converting that content so that it works in game. They need to support animation, different types of gear, be tested for bugs, etc. It's far from a simple process.

    It will be using your tools. On OS, they use EA's faces, eyebrows, hair, beards, etc. to create as close to the players as they can using the limited tools that EA provides. Just use those. At least it'll be closer.
  • EA_Aljo
    3229 posts EA Community Manager
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    For the player likeness and face scans could you guys also not just copy the template that people provide over at Operation Sports to get more player likeness? You could literally let the fans do the work so some player at least somewhat resembles their real life counterpart.

    Yea good idea. Let the die-hard fans create the faces and EA could simply implement them. Win-win if you ask me.

    It's really not that easy. We can't just take player-created content and use it. Unless it was created using the exact same tools we do, chances are good there would be a lot of work involved with converting that content so that it works in game. They need to support animation, different types of gear, be tested for bugs, etc. It's far from a simple process.

    It will be using your tools. On OS, they use EA's faces, eyebrows, hair, beards, etc. to create as close to the players as they can using the limited tools that EA provides. Just use those. At least it'll be closer.

    In that case, I don't see a problem with it. Hopefully, that could be included if roster sharing is added.
  • So what is being worked on and fixed at the moment?

    I just played another two games and everything I've noticed is still as broken as ever. My defense is constantly giving up two on ones by unnecessarily jumping into the play.

    I just had 5 goals scored short side on my goalie from the faceoff dot with no screen. I also am still having countless issues with targeted player changing.

    Are any of these issues being fixed?
  • So what is being worked on and fixed at the moment?

    I just played another two games and everything I've noticed is still as broken as ever. My defense is constantly giving up two on ones by unnecessarily jumping into the play.

    I just had 5 goals scored short side on my goalie from the faceoff dot with no screen. I also am still having countless issues with targeted player changing.

    Are any of these issues being fixed?

    The goalies will always be bad because that's the way top players want them to be and hopefully at least they fix the issue where the AI steps up for no reason and before you can take full control of him he still has to complete stepping up ,and before you EA guys ask for videos there have been tons sent in already on this issue
  • So what is being worked on and fixed at the moment?

    That would be nice to know. The game is broken, I have paid full price on working product, I expect it to be fixed.
  • EA_Aljo
    3229 posts EA Community Manager

    So what is being worked on and fixed at the moment?

    I just played another two games and everything I've noticed is still as broken as ever. My defense is constantly giving up two on ones by unnecessarily jumping into the play.

    I just had 5 goals scored short side on my goalie from the faceoff dot with no screen. I also am still having countless issues with targeted player changing.

    Are any of these issues being fixed?

    We don't have any details on what is coming for the future. That will be announced at a later date.

    For handling those short side goals now, use poke checks, incidental contact or block the shot. They always do the same thing. If someone is repeatedly taking that shot, switch to a defender and defend it. It's easiest to score on that when you're not controlling the player closest to the carrier. If you are doing that, it might be good to play offline and improve your defense. I get the issue you're bringing up and I hope it changes in the future, but you can also stop it in today's game. The same goes for defenders jumping into the play. You'll need to take control of them more. Also, change your strategies so defense is more conservative.
  • EA_Aljo
    3229 posts EA Community Manager
    So what is being worked on and fixed at the moment?

    I just played another two games and everything I've noticed is still as broken as ever. My defense is constantly giving up two on ones by unnecessarily jumping into the play.

    I just had 5 goals scored short side on my goalie from the faceoff dot with no screen. I also am still having countless issues with targeted player changing.

    Are any of these issues being fixed?

    The goalies will always be bad because that's the way top players want them to be and hopefully at least they fix the issue where the AI steps up for no reason and before you can take full control of him he still has to complete stepping up ,and before you EA guys ask for videos there have been tons sent in already on this issue

    This bold portion is completely false. We listen to the community as a whole.

    You can take control of defenders before they step up. Use manual switching to do that.
  • Treatmentworke66
    977 posts Member
    edited March 2020
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    So what is being worked on and fixed at the moment?

    I just played another two games and everything I've noticed is still as broken as ever. My defense is constantly giving up two on ones by unnecessarily jumping into the play.

    I just had 5 goals scored short side on my goalie from the faceoff dot with no screen. I also am still having countless issues with targeted player changing.

    Are any of these issues being fixed?

    The goalies will always be bad because that's the way top players want them to be and hopefully at least they fix the issue where the AI steps up for no reason and before you can take full control of him he still has to complete stepping up ,and before you EA guys ask for videos there have been tons sent in already on this issue

    This bold portion is completely false. We listen to the community as a whole.

    You can take control of defenders before they step up. Use manual switching to do that.

    Again your not reading my statement BEFORE YOU CAN TAKE FULL CONTROL OF THE THE DEFENDER HE STILL HAS TO FINISH THE ANIMATION OF GOING FORWARD BEFORE YOU CAN FULLY TAKE CONTROL OF HIM ...it's been mentioned before with someone actually sending clips on it...stop blaming us for a broken mechanic in this gamel...and please the goalies are bad because the elite whined about the goalies being to good in the start of 19 ,I watched a couple of the Elite streamers last year whine about it and couple of them you guys know very well the same two who cried about the D to D being op ,but then if your so elite it should be easy to stop No?...this is truly my last year of buying this game because to me it seems that it's just being guided and being made to please one particular crowd ...
  • EA_Aljo wrote: »
    So what is being worked on and fixed at the moment?

    I just played another two games and everything I've noticed is still as broken as ever. My defense is constantly giving up two on ones by unnecessarily jumping into the play.

    I just had 5 goals scored short side on my goalie from the faceoff dot with no screen. I also am still having countless issues with targeted player changing.

    Are any of these issues being fixed?

    The goalies will always be bad because that's the way top players want them to be and hopefully at least they fix the issue where the AI steps up for no reason and before you can take full control of him he still has to complete stepping up ,and before you EA guys ask for videos there have been tons sent in already on this issue

    This bold portion is completely false. We listen to the community as a whole.

    You can take control of defenders before they step up. Use manual switching to do that.

    See, that's where I have a problem with that. If you are hounding the carrier, you basically recommend to abandon control of that player and switch to the D man in case he does step up, or if the play actually will involve him.
  • VeNOM2099
    3178 posts Member
    edited March 2020
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    So what is being worked on and fixed at the moment?

    I just played another two games and everything I've noticed is still as broken as ever. My defense is constantly giving up two on ones by unnecessarily jumping into the play.

    I just had 5 goals scored short side on my goalie from the faceoff dot with no screen. I also am still having countless issues with targeted player changing.

    Are any of these issues being fixed?

    The goalies will always be bad because that's the way top players want them to be and hopefully at least they fix the issue where the AI steps up for no reason and before you can take full control of him he still has to complete stepping up ,and before you EA guys ask for videos there have been tons sent in already on this issue

    This bold portion is completely false. We listen to the community as a whole.

    You can take control of defenders before they step up. Use manual switching to do that.

    See, that's where I have a problem with that. If you are hounding the carrier, you basically recommend to abandon control of that player and switch to the D man in case he does step up, or if the play actually will involve him.

    Yup.

    And the other issue with this is that, even if you use manual switching you have to hope that the AI defender is in the correct position for you to actually do anything. Which often times, the AI is NOT in position as it will wander around or (worse) pressure the puck carrier when the human is already doing that. So you switch off, but the AI was already in the same position you were in before you switched... So you basically give him a free goal.
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