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This Game & The Support Is Absolute Trash

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  • VeNOM2099
    3178 posts Member
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    TheMajjam wrote: »
    Issue 1: When the game decides you're going to lose no matter what. As a team that's 250-30-12, I think we know when we're outplaying another team, matched evenly, or being dominated. We are a team that uses position, on point passes, and one-timers to score. Here's a recent game loss coming off a 14+ win streak. With this game, we were going to lose this game no matter what.

    There is no DDA. Your top 20 placement is not because the computer chooses your team win the majority of your games. If you really think this happens, start up a game and have everyone on your team put down your controllers and see how the game plays out.

    Like this:

    https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/venom3o99/video/90638825

    https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/venom3o99/video/90638776

    https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/venom3o99/video/90638941

    That's how the game plays out. Well... to everyone except yourself, I guess. Everyone else bought the bad version of EA's NHL 20 it seems.

    My point was that playing the game is what gets you wins or losses. The computer isn't deciding who's going to win and then scripting the outcome. When someone says they knew they were going to lose, that was because they gave up. It wasn't because the game thought a 14+ win streak was too much and it was time for a loss.

    If DDA were real, it wouldn't matter what you did with your controller as the game would play for you.

    Hmmmm.

    DDA would not simply mean you put the controller down and still win. Not sure why you're going to that extreme in your explanation. DDA could simply be your opponent's goalie gets a decent boost while your goalie looks like a noob or something along those lines, but I don't believe in DDA or tilt. I do believe something is altering the intent of the programming though. Whether that be servers, or maybe even the ISP's themselves, but there is something that could give the impression that tilt exists and I don't think that could be denied at this point.

    In fact, over the years I have played goalie more than enough to tell you that within the first 3 shots in the game I know if I will struggle or have fun. And I also see it in the AI goalies. I also see it when I play D. There are games where it seems any puck in my vicinity will get picked up and other games it seems I couldn't intercept the worst of passes. Don't know the cause and at this point, I couldn't really care as I do not see a fix in the foreseeable future or anytime soon. But, when someone says they knew they were going to lose, it is because of what I stated above and not because they "gave up". There are times it seems you get burned regardless if you did the right thing or not, and other times it seems you can be rewarded for the dumbest of plays/choices on the ice.

    I went to that extreme because it's also the extreme people go to here. When someone says the game is choosing them to lose, that means you really don't have control over the outcome. If you didn't, and the game just wanted you to win or lose, regardless of how you played, you'd be able to step away and let the game play itself.

    There are times I go down by a couple goals in the first few minutes. It's hard not to think the game is out to make you lose when that happens. Very frequently though, I'm able to come back and make a good game out of it. I don't think the computer is thinking, well, it's probably his turn to lose so let's make the other guy pick up more turnovers, skate faster, take less penalties, etc. There is absolutely nothing built into the game that manipulates the play to give one side an unfair advantage. Dumb plays and flukey goals happen in the real world too. That's not exactly exclusive to this game.

    I didn't go to any extremes to get my point across and if more people did that, then eventually there wouldn't be any extremes to go to, but I digress.

    I see your point and can agree to it, but I don't understand why you took time to explain to me why they game isn't out to get me or give me a loss when I specifically said I do not believe in tilt or DDA.

    There would be less extreme viewpoints if the people who defend this game would just pick a side and stick to it.

    For example, if we argue that in the real NHL, certain types of shots wouldn't get past a goaltender, their reply is that it's just a video game, not real life. Then in another point, we argue that certain things seemed contrived or forced leading to unrealistic results, but they reply "well it happens in the real NHL too".

    So which one is it? Is it real? Is it not? If it's supposed to emulate real life, fine. Just say so, let's all stop arguing with each other and try to, all of us, the Devs and the Community together, try to bring this game to the realism it needs to be to be enjoyed. If it's supposed to be "just a game", that's fine to. But say so, change the name to "Don Cherry's Rock'em, Sock'em Hockey feat. the NHL" and let's run with it. No more arguments, because we know which direction the game is going into.

    But for the love of baby Jeebus, I just want them to pick a side!!!!

    What kind of shots wouldn't get past a real goaltender? With the exception of a glitch where the puck passes through an object, what shots could never be scored? I assume you've watched a lot of hockey over the years and there have been many highly unusual goals. Keep in mind, there are thousands upon thousands of more games played in the video game in a year than there are in real hockey. You're bound to see more of those goals that you feel would never get past a goaltender. Speaking of which, what goals are you seeing that never would score in a real game? If you're talking about shots from the blue line you've mentioned previously, those do happen in real games.

    I don't really see why people use the "it happens in real hockey too" argument when the game's goalies are not even close to being as intuitive or agile as their real-life counterparts and also how offensive ratings and skills are inflated for 4 minute periods.

    I can rub out a player on the boards, and so can NHL players. Why can't we do this in the game? See? Using "real hockey" is not always a valid reasoning and honestly, I don't think we should be using it as a comparison unless you are talking about trades, or rules or something along those lines. This game isn't striving to be a 1:1 reproduction so real life hockey doesn't apply, imo.

    Well said. The game isn't a 1:1 reproduction of NHL hockey. It's not even 1:8 of NHL hockey. So why are we bringing this into the equation?

    @EA_Aljo I haven't just "watched" a lot of hockey, I played it for 25 years. On an actual ice surface for an actual local team here in Montreal. I wasn't a superstar Goalie, but I was pretty decent and always top 10 in my league, maybe top 5 in my final two seasons out of 15 or so teams. As a goalie, I have a particular view on goaltending in this game. As a videogame, there are certain shots that are more disposed (shall we say) to find the back of the net in this game. That's all good and dandy, but it's too easy to exploit such flaws and run away with a game simple because you "found the sweet spot". This is akin in other videogames to having a weapon that's overpowered or finding a "glitch" on the map that allows you to escape harm. In another video game, when an exploit or something abusable is found, regardless of how "realistic" or "fun" it might be to keep it in, it's removed to keep things fair.

    As I said in the other thread; let's try to pick a side. Realistic or not? One or the other, not both.

    We've never said this is an exact 1:1 recreation of hockey. There's a lot of sim aspects to it, but if it were fully sim, that would cause a lot of frustration for a huge amount of the fanbase. That's something Ben would need to discuss at greater length.

    As far as sweet spots for shots go, I'll say it again, they can be defended. I know you also need to defend the play, but you're specifically mentioning shots. If you continually shut someone down, chances are good they'll try to find another way to score.

    What would you suggest? Shots not be able to be scored from the blue line? Take away cross-crease one timers? Take away short side wristers? Would you rather a goalie pick up on someone taking the same shot repeatedly, cheat to that side and leave the other side open for an easy one timer? How would you change goalies so they only let in good shots? Even if they did only let in good shots, isn't that unrealistic as bad shots score with some regularity in real hockey?

    #1. Make goalies positionally aware. AI goalies in this game are so oblivious to where they are in relation to their net it's pitiful. So many times they are caught out of position on simple shots they should be saving. But at the same time they can make incredible spider-man saves when they actually ARE out of position.

    #2. Make goalies kick out more shots to the corners. It's too easy to force them to cough up juicy rebounds right in the slot, especially weak shots they should control.

    #3. Bring back goalie's effective save range from NHL 17, especially the human goalies. Make covering your angles have more of an impact on a goalie's save success, just like entering a "glide" gives a boost to a shooter's shot success. If a goalie sits back on his goal line in the middle of his net, for example, then he takes a hit in his save attributes and can whiff on a save attempt more often than a goalie who comes out to challenge the shot and is in good position to close the angles. At the same time, skaters have seen their agility boosted significantly but goalies are still slow and sluggish when moving. We can't keep up with the amount of lateral acceleration they have at the moment. Give us back our ability to make a limb save on reaction from in close.

    That alone will reduce the amount of goals per game by at least one or two. Instead of ending 8-6, they'll end 6-5 or 5-4. Is that so bad??

    Ben can provide more details on goalies, but if you have examples of goals that should be saves, that would probably help as well.

    Thanks for the feedback.

    https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/venom3o99/video/90770463

    Here's one of them. In that situation, a goalie will want to extend a limb and TRY to close the gap. It's basic stuff taught to 5 year olds when they start to learn how to play.

    What's worse is that if you watch it frame by frame, you see that the game starts to give me a limb animation, extending the right leg, but then after a few frames it decides to change it's mind and brings the leg back to attempt a sliding blocking save. Which is the complete WRONG thing to do there. The only time a goalie would use a blocking save like that is if he's stationary and the shot is towards his body. No goalie would slide like that and just tuck his limbs in unless he was purposely trying to let a goal in.

    In that situation it's up to the SHOOTER to put the puck past the goalie, not up to the GOALIE to allow a shot to go in. But that's how the game is programed to be, goalies gotta get sniped...
  • EA_Aljo
    3229 posts EA Community Manager
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    So what is being worked on and fixed at the moment?

    I just played another two games and everything I've noticed is still as broken as ever. My defense is constantly giving up two on ones by unnecessarily jumping into the play.

    I just had 5 goals scored short side on my goalie from the faceoff dot with no screen. I also am still having countless issues with targeted player changing.

    Are any of these issues being fixed?

    The goalies will always be bad because that's the way top players want them to be and hopefully at least they fix the issue where the AI steps up for no reason and before you can take full control of him he still has to complete stepping up ,and before you EA guys ask for videos there have been tons sent in already on this issue

    This bold portion is completely false. We listen to the community as a whole.

    You can take control of defenders before they step up. Use manual switching to do that.

    See, that's where I have a problem with that. If you are hounding the carrier, you basically recommend to abandon control of that player and switch to the D man in case he does step up, or if the play actually will involve him.

    What mode is this happening in and what strategies are you using? I play a lot of Squad Battles games on Superstar. I use 1-2-2 Passive, 1-4, Protect Net and Collapsing by default. When playing head to head games I adjust those depending on my opponent. I know what you're saying happens since I've seen the videos and have experienced it myself. However, in my own play, it's really rare and I think that just has to do with how I play. Although, I'm not sure what I'm doing that limits that from happening. For EASHL, I'm almost always on defense. Even if I fill in at center, which occasionally happens. I still drop back a lot as a 3rd defender. I know you don't play HUT so where exactly are you seeing this or is it only in EASHL with AI defenders?
  • VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    So what is being worked on and fixed at the moment?

    I just played another two games and everything I've noticed is still as broken as ever. My defense is constantly giving up two on ones by unnecessarily jumping into the play.

    I just had 5 goals scored short side on my goalie from the faceoff dot with no screen. I also am still having countless issues with targeted player changing.

    Are any of these issues being fixed?

    The goalies will always be bad because that's the way top players want them to be and hopefully at least they fix the issue where the AI steps up for no reason and before you can take full control of him he still has to complete stepping up ,and before you EA guys ask for videos there have been tons sent in already on this issue

    This bold portion is completely false. We listen to the community as a whole.

    You can take control of defenders before they step up. Use manual switching to do that.

    See, that's where I have a problem with that. If you are hounding the carrier, you basically recommend to abandon control of that player and switch to the D man in case he does step up, or if the play actually will involve him.

    Yup.

    And the other issue with this is that, even if you use manual switching you have to hope that the AI defender is in the correct position for you to actually do anything. Which often times, the AI is NOT in position as it will wander around or (worse) pressure the puck carrier when the human is already doing that. So you switch off, but the AI was already in the same position you were in before you switched... So you basically give him a free goal.

    I guess you could also say it leads to skillzoning, doesn't it? You control that player before the play happens, so yea, it's indeed skillzoning.
  • VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    TheMajjam wrote: »
    Issue 1: When the game decides you're going to lose no matter what. As a team that's 250-30-12, I think we know when we're outplaying another team, matched evenly, or being dominated. We are a team that uses position, on point passes, and one-timers to score. Here's a recent game loss coming off a 14+ win streak. With this game, we were going to lose this game no matter what.

    There is no DDA. Your top 20 placement is not because the computer chooses your team win the majority of your games. If you really think this happens, start up a game and have everyone on your team put down your controllers and see how the game plays out.

    Like this:

    https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/venom3o99/video/90638825

    https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/venom3o99/video/90638776

    https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/venom3o99/video/90638941

    That's how the game plays out. Well... to everyone except yourself, I guess. Everyone else bought the bad version of EA's NHL 20 it seems.

    My point was that playing the game is what gets you wins or losses. The computer isn't deciding who's going to win and then scripting the outcome. When someone says they knew they were going to lose, that was because they gave up. It wasn't because the game thought a 14+ win streak was too much and it was time for a loss.

    If DDA were real, it wouldn't matter what you did with your controller as the game would play for you.

    Hmmmm.

    DDA would not simply mean you put the controller down and still win. Not sure why you're going to that extreme in your explanation. DDA could simply be your opponent's goalie gets a decent boost while your goalie looks like a noob or something along those lines, but I don't believe in DDA or tilt. I do believe something is altering the intent of the programming though. Whether that be servers, or maybe even the ISP's themselves, but there is something that could give the impression that tilt exists and I don't think that could be denied at this point.

    In fact, over the years I have played goalie more than enough to tell you that within the first 3 shots in the game I know if I will struggle or have fun. And I also see it in the AI goalies. I also see it when I play D. There are games where it seems any puck in my vicinity will get picked up and other games it seems I couldn't intercept the worst of passes. Don't know the cause and at this point, I couldn't really care as I do not see a fix in the foreseeable future or anytime soon. But, when someone says they knew they were going to lose, it is because of what I stated above and not because they "gave up". There are times it seems you get burned regardless if you did the right thing or not, and other times it seems you can be rewarded for the dumbest of plays/choices on the ice.

    I went to that extreme because it's also the extreme people go to here. When someone says the game is choosing them to lose, that means you really don't have control over the outcome. If you didn't, and the game just wanted you to win or lose, regardless of how you played, you'd be able to step away and let the game play itself.

    There are times I go down by a couple goals in the first few minutes. It's hard not to think the game is out to make you lose when that happens. Very frequently though, I'm able to come back and make a good game out of it. I don't think the computer is thinking, well, it's probably his turn to lose so let's make the other guy pick up more turnovers, skate faster, take less penalties, etc. There is absolutely nothing built into the game that manipulates the play to give one side an unfair advantage. Dumb plays and flukey goals happen in the real world too. That's not exactly exclusive to this game.

    I didn't go to any extremes to get my point across and if more people did that, then eventually there wouldn't be any extremes to go to, but I digress.

    I see your point and can agree to it, but I don't understand why you took time to explain to me why they game isn't out to get me or give me a loss when I specifically said I do not believe in tilt or DDA.

    There would be less extreme viewpoints if the people who defend this game would just pick a side and stick to it.

    For example, if we argue that in the real NHL, certain types of shots wouldn't get past a goaltender, their reply is that it's just a video game, not real life. Then in another point, we argue that certain things seemed contrived or forced leading to unrealistic results, but they reply "well it happens in the real NHL too".

    So which one is it? Is it real? Is it not? If it's supposed to emulate real life, fine. Just say so, let's all stop arguing with each other and try to, all of us, the Devs and the Community together, try to bring this game to the realism it needs to be to be enjoyed. If it's supposed to be "just a game", that's fine to. But say so, change the name to "Don Cherry's Rock'em, Sock'em Hockey feat. the NHL" and let's run with it. No more arguments, because we know which direction the game is going into.

    But for the love of baby Jeebus, I just want them to pick a side!!!!

    What kind of shots wouldn't get past a real goaltender? With the exception of a glitch where the puck passes through an object, what shots could never be scored? I assume you've watched a lot of hockey over the years and there have been many highly unusual goals. Keep in mind, there are thousands upon thousands of more games played in the video game in a year than there are in real hockey. You're bound to see more of those goals that you feel would never get past a goaltender. Speaking of which, what goals are you seeing that never would score in a real game? If you're talking about shots from the blue line you've mentioned previously, those do happen in real games.

    I don't really see why people use the "it happens in real hockey too" argument when the game's goalies are not even close to being as intuitive or agile as their real-life counterparts and also how offensive ratings and skills are inflated for 4 minute periods.

    I can rub out a player on the boards, and so can NHL players. Why can't we do this in the game? See? Using "real hockey" is not always a valid reasoning and honestly, I don't think we should be using it as a comparison unless you are talking about trades, or rules or something along those lines. This game isn't striving to be a 1:1 reproduction so real life hockey doesn't apply, imo.

    Well said. The game isn't a 1:1 reproduction of NHL hockey. It's not even 1:8 of NHL hockey. So why are we bringing this into the equation?

    @EA_Aljo I haven't just "watched" a lot of hockey, I played it for 25 years. On an actual ice surface for an actual local team here in Montreal. I wasn't a superstar Goalie, but I was pretty decent and always top 10 in my league, maybe top 5 in my final two seasons out of 15 or so teams. As a goalie, I have a particular view on goaltending in this game. As a videogame, there are certain shots that are more disposed (shall we say) to find the back of the net in this game. That's all good and dandy, but it's too easy to exploit such flaws and run away with a game simple because you "found the sweet spot". This is akin in other videogames to having a weapon that's overpowered or finding a "glitch" on the map that allows you to escape harm. In another video game, when an exploit or something abusable is found, regardless of how "realistic" or "fun" it might be to keep it in, it's removed to keep things fair.

    As I said in the other thread; let's try to pick a side. Realistic or not? One or the other, not both.

    We've never said this is an exact 1:1 recreation of hockey. There's a lot of sim aspects to it, but if it were fully sim, that would cause a lot of frustration for a huge amount of the fanbase. That's something Ben would need to discuss at greater length.

    As far as sweet spots for shots go, I'll say it again, they can be defended. I know you also need to defend the play, but you're specifically mentioning shots. If you continually shut someone down, chances are good they'll try to find another way to score.

    What would you suggest? Shots not be able to be scored from the blue line? Take away cross-crease one timers? Take away short side wristers? Would you rather a goalie pick up on someone taking the same shot repeatedly, cheat to that side and leave the other side open for an easy one timer? How would you change goalies so they only let in good shots? Even if they did only let in good shots, isn't that unrealistic as bad shots score with some regularity in real hockey?

    #1. Make goalies positionally aware. AI goalies in this game are so oblivious to where they are in relation to their net it's pitiful. So many times they are caught out of position on simple shots they should be saving. But at the same time they can make incredible spider-man saves when they actually ARE out of position.

    #2. Make goalies kick out more shots to the corners. It's too easy to force them to cough up juicy rebounds right in the slot, especially weak shots they should control.

    #3. Bring back goalie's effective save range from NHL 17, especially the human goalies. Make covering your angles have more of an impact on a goalie's save success, just like entering a "glide" gives a boost to a shooter's shot success. If a goalie sits back on his goal line in the middle of his net, for example, then he takes a hit in his save attributes and can whiff on a save attempt more often than a goalie who comes out to challenge the shot and is in good position to close the angles. At the same time, skaters have seen their agility boosted significantly but goalies are still slow and sluggish when moving. We can't keep up with the amount of lateral acceleration they have at the moment. Give us back our ability to make a limb save on reaction from in close.

    That alone will reduce the amount of goals per game by at least one or two. Instead of ending 8-6, they'll end 6-5 or 5-4. Is that so bad??

    Ben can provide more details on goalies, but if you have examples of goals that should be saves, that would probably help as well.

    Thanks for the feedback.

    https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/venom3o99/video/90770463

    Here's one of them. In that situation, a goalie will want to extend a limb and TRY to close the gap. It's basic stuff taught to 5 year olds when they start to learn how to play.

    What's worse is that if you watch it frame by frame, you see that the game starts to give me a limb animation, extending the right leg, but then after a few frames it decides to change it's mind and brings the leg back to attempt a sliding blocking save. Which is the complete WRONG thing to do there. The only time a goalie would use a blocking save like that is if he's stationary and the shot is towards his body. No goalie would slide like that and just tuck his limbs in unless he was purposely trying to let a goal in.

    In that situation it's up to the SHOOTER to put the puck past the goalie, not up to the GOALIE to allow a shot to go in. But that's how the game is programed to be, goalies gotta get sniped...

    That looks like a much too early blend of a post-hugging animation. Your goalie clearly slides towards the post to hug it.
  • VeNOM2099
    3178 posts Member
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    So what is being worked on and fixed at the moment?

    I just played another two games and everything I've noticed is still as broken as ever. My defense is constantly giving up two on ones by unnecessarily jumping into the play.

    I just had 5 goals scored short side on my goalie from the faceoff dot with no screen. I also am still having countless issues with targeted player changing.

    Are any of these issues being fixed?

    The goalies will always be bad because that's the way top players want them to be and hopefully at least they fix the issue where the AI steps up for no reason and before you can take full control of him he still has to complete stepping up ,and before you EA guys ask for videos there have been tons sent in already on this issue

    This bold portion is completely false. We listen to the community as a whole.

    You can take control of defenders before they step up. Use manual switching to do that.

    See, that's where I have a problem with that. If you are hounding the carrier, you basically recommend to abandon control of that player and switch to the D man in case he does step up, or if the play actually will involve him.

    Yup.

    And the other issue with this is that, even if you use manual switching you have to hope that the AI defender is in the correct position for you to actually do anything. Which often times, the AI is NOT in position as it will wander around or (worse) pressure the puck carrier when the human is already doing that. So you switch off, but the AI was already in the same position you were in before you switched... So you basically give him a free goal.

    I guess you could also say it leads to skillzoning, doesn't it? You control that player before the play happens, so yea, it's indeed skillzoning.

    Exactly. You have to babysit the AI in this game, it's stupid. I don't want them to play for me. I just want them to be in position. Again, my suggestion is to make the AI just pick up the other team's AI players that are open. Don't chase the human puck carrier, that will force the other human to play the puck or get decimated.
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    TheMajjam wrote: »
    Issue 1: When the game decides you're going to lose no matter what. As a team that's 250-30-12, I think we know when we're outplaying another team, matched evenly, or being dominated. We are a team that uses position, on point passes, and one-timers to score. Here's a recent game loss coming off a 14+ win streak. With this game, we were going to lose this game no matter what.

    There is no DDA. Your top 20 placement is not because the computer chooses your team win the majority of your games. If you really think this happens, start up a game and have everyone on your team put down your controllers and see how the game plays out.

    Like this:

    https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/venom3o99/video/90638825

    https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/venom3o99/video/90638776

    https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/venom3o99/video/90638941

    That's how the game plays out. Well... to everyone except yourself, I guess. Everyone else bought the bad version of EA's NHL 20 it seems.

    My point was that playing the game is what gets you wins or losses. The computer isn't deciding who's going to win and then scripting the outcome. When someone says they knew they were going to lose, that was because they gave up. It wasn't because the game thought a 14+ win streak was too much and it was time for a loss.

    If DDA were real, it wouldn't matter what you did with your controller as the game would play for you.

    Hmmmm.

    DDA would not simply mean you put the controller down and still win. Not sure why you're going to that extreme in your explanation. DDA could simply be your opponent's goalie gets a decent boost while your goalie looks like a noob or something along those lines, but I don't believe in DDA or tilt. I do believe something is altering the intent of the programming though. Whether that be servers, or maybe even the ISP's themselves, but there is something that could give the impression that tilt exists and I don't think that could be denied at this point.

    In fact, over the years I have played goalie more than enough to tell you that within the first 3 shots in the game I know if I will struggle or have fun. And I also see it in the AI goalies. I also see it when I play D. There are games where it seems any puck in my vicinity will get picked up and other games it seems I couldn't intercept the worst of passes. Don't know the cause and at this point, I couldn't really care as I do not see a fix in the foreseeable future or anytime soon. But, when someone says they knew they were going to lose, it is because of what I stated above and not because they "gave up". There are times it seems you get burned regardless if you did the right thing or not, and other times it seems you can be rewarded for the dumbest of plays/choices on the ice.

    I went to that extreme because it's also the extreme people go to here. When someone says the game is choosing them to lose, that means you really don't have control over the outcome. If you didn't, and the game just wanted you to win or lose, regardless of how you played, you'd be able to step away and let the game play itself.

    There are times I go down by a couple goals in the first few minutes. It's hard not to think the game is out to make you lose when that happens. Very frequently though, I'm able to come back and make a good game out of it. I don't think the computer is thinking, well, it's probably his turn to lose so let's make the other guy pick up more turnovers, skate faster, take less penalties, etc. There is absolutely nothing built into the game that manipulates the play to give one side an unfair advantage. Dumb plays and flukey goals happen in the real world too. That's not exactly exclusive to this game.

    I didn't go to any extremes to get my point across and if more people did that, then eventually there wouldn't be any extremes to go to, but I digress.

    I see your point and can agree to it, but I don't understand why you took time to explain to me why they game isn't out to get me or give me a loss when I specifically said I do not believe in tilt or DDA.

    There would be less extreme viewpoints if the people who defend this game would just pick a side and stick to it.

    For example, if we argue that in the real NHL, certain types of shots wouldn't get past a goaltender, their reply is that it's just a video game, not real life. Then in another point, we argue that certain things seemed contrived or forced leading to unrealistic results, but they reply "well it happens in the real NHL too".

    So which one is it? Is it real? Is it not? If it's supposed to emulate real life, fine. Just say so, let's all stop arguing with each other and try to, all of us, the Devs and the Community together, try to bring this game to the realism it needs to be to be enjoyed. If it's supposed to be "just a game", that's fine to. But say so, change the name to "Don Cherry's Rock'em, Sock'em Hockey feat. the NHL" and let's run with it. No more arguments, because we know which direction the game is going into.

    But for the love of baby Jeebus, I just want them to pick a side!!!!

    What kind of shots wouldn't get past a real goaltender? With the exception of a glitch where the puck passes through an object, what shots could never be scored? I assume you've watched a lot of hockey over the years and there have been many highly unusual goals. Keep in mind, there are thousands upon thousands of more games played in the video game in a year than there are in real hockey. You're bound to see more of those goals that you feel would never get past a goaltender. Speaking of which, what goals are you seeing that never would score in a real game? If you're talking about shots from the blue line you've mentioned previously, those do happen in real games.

    I don't really see why people use the "it happens in real hockey too" argument when the game's goalies are not even close to being as intuitive or agile as their real-life counterparts and also how offensive ratings and skills are inflated for 4 minute periods.

    I can rub out a player on the boards, and so can NHL players. Why can't we do this in the game? See? Using "real hockey" is not always a valid reasoning and honestly, I don't think we should be using it as a comparison unless you are talking about trades, or rules or something along those lines. This game isn't striving to be a 1:1 reproduction so real life hockey doesn't apply, imo.

    Well said. The game isn't a 1:1 reproduction of NHL hockey. It's not even 1:8 of NHL hockey. So why are we bringing this into the equation?

    @EA_Aljo I haven't just "watched" a lot of hockey, I played it for 25 years. On an actual ice surface for an actual local team here in Montreal. I wasn't a superstar Goalie, but I was pretty decent and always top 10 in my league, maybe top 5 in my final two seasons out of 15 or so teams. As a goalie, I have a particular view on goaltending in this game. As a videogame, there are certain shots that are more disposed (shall we say) to find the back of the net in this game. That's all good and dandy, but it's too easy to exploit such flaws and run away with a game simple because you "found the sweet spot". This is akin in other videogames to having a weapon that's overpowered or finding a "glitch" on the map that allows you to escape harm. In another video game, when an exploit or something abusable is found, regardless of how "realistic" or "fun" it might be to keep it in, it's removed to keep things fair.

    As I said in the other thread; let's try to pick a side. Realistic or not? One or the other, not both.

    We've never said this is an exact 1:1 recreation of hockey. There's a lot of sim aspects to it, but if it were fully sim, that would cause a lot of frustration for a huge amount of the fanbase. That's something Ben would need to discuss at greater length.

    As far as sweet spots for shots go, I'll say it again, they can be defended. I know you also need to defend the play, but you're specifically mentioning shots. If you continually shut someone down, chances are good they'll try to find another way to score.

    What would you suggest? Shots not be able to be scored from the blue line? Take away cross-crease one timers? Take away short side wristers? Would you rather a goalie pick up on someone taking the same shot repeatedly, cheat to that side and leave the other side open for an easy one timer? How would you change goalies so they only let in good shots? Even if they did only let in good shots, isn't that unrealistic as bad shots score with some regularity in real hockey?

    #1. Make goalies positionally aware. AI goalies in this game are so oblivious to where they are in relation to their net it's pitiful. So many times they are caught out of position on simple shots they should be saving. But at the same time they can make incredible spider-man saves when they actually ARE out of position.

    #2. Make goalies kick out more shots to the corners. It's too easy to force them to cough up juicy rebounds right in the slot, especially weak shots they should control.

    #3. Bring back goalie's effective save range from NHL 17, especially the human goalies. Make covering your angles have more of an impact on a goalie's save success, just like entering a "glide" gives a boost to a shooter's shot success. If a goalie sits back on his goal line in the middle of his net, for example, then he takes a hit in his save attributes and can whiff on a save attempt more often than a goalie who comes out to challenge the shot and is in good position to close the angles. At the same time, skaters have seen their agility boosted significantly but goalies are still slow and sluggish when moving. We can't keep up with the amount of lateral acceleration they have at the moment. Give us back our ability to make a limb save on reaction from in close.

    That alone will reduce the amount of goals per game by at least one or two. Instead of ending 8-6, they'll end 6-5 or 5-4. Is that so bad??

    Ben can provide more details on goalies, but if you have examples of goals that should be saves, that would probably help as well.

    Thanks for the feedback.

    https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/venom3o99/video/90770463

    Here's one of them. In that situation, a goalie will want to extend a limb and TRY to close the gap. It's basic stuff taught to 5 year olds when they start to learn how to play.

    What's worse is that if you watch it frame by frame, you see that the game starts to give me a limb animation, extending the right leg, but then after a few frames it decides to change it's mind and brings the leg back to attempt a sliding blocking save. Which is the complete WRONG thing to do there. The only time a goalie would use a blocking save like that is if he's stationary and the shot is towards his body. No goalie would slide like that and just tuck his limbs in unless he was purposely trying to let a goal in.

    In that situation it's up to the SHOOTER to put the puck past the goalie, not up to the GOALIE to allow a shot to go in. But that's how the game is programed to be, goalies gotta get sniped...

    That looks like a much too early blend of a post-hugging animation. Your goalie clearly slides towards the post to hug it.

    The blend happens after the first few frames where it looks like it's gonna give me a limb save, but you see the leg retract and then go into the blocking save and then he blends into a post hug and gets frozen in that position for the entire travel to the post.
  • EA_Aljo wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    So what is being worked on and fixed at the moment?

    I just played another two games and everything I've noticed is still as broken as ever. My defense is constantly giving up two on ones by unnecessarily jumping into the play.

    I just had 5 goals scored short side on my goalie from the faceoff dot with no screen. I also am still having countless issues with targeted player changing.

    Are any of these issues being fixed?

    The goalies will always be bad because that's the way top players want them to be and hopefully at least they fix the issue where the AI steps up for no reason and before you can take full control of him he still has to complete stepping up ,and before you EA guys ask for videos there have been tons sent in already on this issue

    This bold portion is completely false. We listen to the community as a whole.

    You can take control of defenders before they step up. Use manual switching to do that.

    See, that's where I have a problem with that. If you are hounding the carrier, you basically recommend to abandon control of that player and switch to the D man in case he does step up, or if the play actually will involve him.

    What mode is this happening in and what strategies are you using? I play a lot of Squad Battles games on Superstar. I use 1-2-2 Passive, 1-4, Protect Net and Collapsing by default. When playing head to head games I adjust those depending on my opponent. I know what you're saying happens since I've seen the videos and have experienced it myself. However, in my own play, it's really rare and I think that just has to do with how I play. Although, I'm not sure what I'm doing that limits that from happening. For EASHL, I'm almost always on defense. Even if I fill in at center, which occasionally happens. I still drop back a lot as a 3rd defender. I know you don't play HUT so where exactly are you seeing this or is it only in EASHL with AI defenders?

    Mostly EASHL with an AI D partner. I perfectly play my side and sure enough, if the carrier can get deep enough in the zone, my AI D partner will hit the breaks and take a step forward which of course, perfect opportunity for that easy one-timer shot.
  • EA_Aljo
    3229 posts EA Community Manager
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    So what is being worked on and fixed at the moment?

    I just played another two games and everything I've noticed is still as broken as ever. My defense is constantly giving up two on ones by unnecessarily jumping into the play.

    I just had 5 goals scored short side on my goalie from the faceoff dot with no screen. I also am still having countless issues with targeted player changing.

    Are any of these issues being fixed?

    The goalies will always be bad because that's the way top players want them to be and hopefully at least they fix the issue where the AI steps up for no reason and before you can take full control of him he still has to complete stepping up ,and before you EA guys ask for videos there have been tons sent in already on this issue

    This bold portion is completely false. We listen to the community as a whole.

    You can take control of defenders before they step up. Use manual switching to do that.

    See, that's where I have a problem with that. If you are hounding the carrier, you basically recommend to abandon control of that player and switch to the D man in case he does step up, or if the play actually will involve him.

    What mode is this happening in and what strategies are you using? I play a lot of Squad Battles games on Superstar. I use 1-2-2 Passive, 1-4, Protect Net and Collapsing by default. When playing head to head games I adjust those depending on my opponent. I know what you're saying happens since I've seen the videos and have experienced it myself. However, in my own play, it's really rare and I think that just has to do with how I play. Although, I'm not sure what I'm doing that limits that from happening. For EASHL, I'm almost always on defense. Even if I fill in at center, which occasionally happens. I still drop back a lot as a 3rd defender. I know you don't play HUT so where exactly are you seeing this or is it only in EASHL with AI defenders?

    Mostly EASHL with an AI D partner. I perfectly play my side and sure enough, if the carrier can get deep enough in the zone, my AI D partner will hit the breaks and take a step forward which of course, perfect opportunity for that easy one-timer shot.

    Gotcha. Thanks for the info. I tend to cheat to the left so I can help out my AI D partner because I'm not super confident in them. Not that they step up a lot, but they can be kind of passive at times. Normally I crank up the Defensive Pressure to High Pressure and they play the carrier pretty tight, but not always. Most of the time they do ok on their own, but depending on the situation, I'll back them up better.
  • EA_Aljo wrote: »

    We don't have any details on what is coming for the future. That will be announced at a later date.

    For handling those short side goals now, use poke checks, incidental contact or block the shot. They always do the same thing. If someone is repeatedly taking that shot, switch to a defender and defend it. It's easiest to score on that when you're not controlling the player closest to the carrier. If you are doing that, it might be good to play offline and improve your defense. I get the issue you're bringing up and I hope it changes in the future, but you can also stop it in today's game. The same goes for defenders jumping into the play. You'll need to take control of them more. Also, change your strategies so defense is more conservative.

    Are both of these comments actually serious? First comment, you're just blatantly insinuating that I need to improve? I get in not top shelf cookie by any means, but the fact is not that I am not properly poke checking them. The fact here is that this game has so many flaws, and that is one of them that you guys somehow still can't seem to fix. That's again putting the onus on us to figure out a way around a broken product that we've purchased??

    Second, thank you for pointing the obvious here as it never once occurred to me to take control of my defensemen to prevent that. My issue is that by the time I take control of my defensemen, it is far too late because they have made the great decision of already jumping up into the play, so he's so far behind I can't even use him. So what you're saying is, I should just take control of all my players anticipating before the AI makes a bad play? That's a fantastic solution!!

    To your first point about not having any timeline on fixing some of the many issues. I understand it may be hard to put times to all these issues, but honestly, you guys are really not providing any confidence that the game is being worked on to be improved. If I'm noticing these exact same issues from last year's game, that clearly means you guys are prioritizing other things like pumping out new features, or other things that are cash grabs like new hut packs on a weekly basis. For you guys to constantly push these issues off, and than to just blatantly ask us to constantly submit these or to "practice", or set different strategies, or adapter or style of play is ludicrous. If it were that easy, do you think that many of us would be complaining?

  • EA_Aljo wrote: »
    Gotcha. Thanks for the info. I tend to cheat to the left so I can help out my AI D partner because I'm not super confident in them. Not that they step up a lot, but they can be kind of passive at times. Normally I crank up the Defensive Pressure to High Pressure and they play the carrier pretty tight, but not always. Most of the time they do ok on their own, but depending on the situation, I'll back them up better.

    Huh, that's odd; you always told me your D partner was amazing and I needed to change my strategy

  • EA_Aljo wrote: »

    We don't have any details on what is coming for the future. That will be announced at a later date.

    For handling those short side goals now, use poke checks, incidental contact or block the shot. They always do the same thing. If someone is repeatedly taking that shot, switch to a defender and defend it. It's easiest to score on that when you're not controlling the player closest to the carrier. If you are doing that, it might be good to play offline and improve your defense. I get the issue you're bringing up and I hope it changes in the future, but you can also stop it in today's game. The same goes for defenders jumping into the play. You'll need to take control of them more. Also, change your strategies so defense is more conservative.

    Are both of these comments actually serious? First comment, you're just blatantly insinuating that I need to improve? I get in not top shelf cookie by any means, but the fact is not that I am not properly poke checking them. The fact here is that this game has so many flaws, and that is one of them that you guys somehow still can't seem to fix. That's again putting the onus on us to figure out a way around a broken product that we've purchased??

    Second, thank you for pointing the obvious here as it never once occurred to me to take control of my defensemen to prevent that. My issue is that by the time I take control of my defensemen, it is far too late because they have made the great decision of already jumping up into the play, so he's so far behind I can't even use him. So what you're saying is, I should just take control of all my players anticipating before the AI makes a bad play? That's a fantastic solution!!

    To your first point about not having any timeline on fixing some of the many issues. I understand it may be hard to put times to all these issues, but honestly, you guys are really not providing any confidence that the game is being worked on to be improved. If I'm noticing these exact same issues from last year's game, that clearly means you guys are prioritizing other things like pumping out new features, or other things that are cash grabs like new hut packs on a weekly basis. For you guys to constantly push these issues off, and than to just blatantly ask us to constantly submit these or to "practice", or set different strategies, or adapter or style of play is ludicrous. If it were that easy, do you think that many of us would be complaining?

    I've been saying this about the D man jumping up for no reason for awhile and people have sent in clips on this and yet instead of fixing the problem they blame us ,it's not the strats it's the game it's broken
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    edited March 2020
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/venom3o99/video/90770463

    Here's one of them. In that situation, a goalie will want to extend a limb and TRY to close the gap. It's basic stuff taught to 5 year olds when they start to learn how to play.

    What's worse is that if you watch it frame by frame, you see that the game starts to give me a limb animation, extending the right leg, but then after a few frames it decides to change it's mind and brings the leg back to attempt a sliding blocking save. Which is the complete WRONG thing to do there. The only time a goalie would use a blocking save like that is if he's stationary and the shot is towards his body. No goalie would slide like that and just tuck his limbs in unless he was purposely trying to let a goal in.

    In that situation it's up to the SHOOTER to put the puck past the goalie, not up to the GOALIE to allow a shot to go in. But that's how the game is programed to be, goalies gotta get sniped...

    In this sitaution, there are a few things at play.

    A goalie would try and take away more net pre-emtpively when they know the puck is close and they aren't necessarily going to be able to react to make a reactionary limb based save once they see the puck in motion. This is what is available to human goalies by pressing the right stick. you will extend your leg and your limb towards the side you push and then can make reactionary saves from there as well.

    The other piece is the way the save mechanic works and we want to improve this. No matter what, you wouldn't have made the save here with a reactionary save. However, it would have looked more realistic if you were that late to have extended a limb and just missed it but the game in the way that it is 'late' in reaction time to make a save considers if the puck were to arrive there later rather than reacting to the puck and where it did go by. So if you weren't late by 3-4 frames, the goalie could have stopped that puck by sliding over in that blocking position. It is just a visual disconnect that looks worse, the later the goalie is. When they are late by only a frame, it doesn't look as bad and you often see real world NHL goalies slide over and just miss getting a shoulder on a puck, etc. but if the puck was passing earlier, they would obviously react to it and try and get a limb up and just be late with it.

    I am not sure in this case if you are asking to be on the post or not. If you are, the game only looks to get you to the post and tries to make saves from that base posture. If we don't do that, you get cases where a goalie blends into a regular butterfly save when they could have created more of a seal on the post and potentially let in a weak goal. So this is where we listen to what the player is requesting and if they are late getting there, at least that is on them.

    That is why in this scenario, with less time and so much open net, I would expect as you would to see the goalie try to take away more net but we don't do that automatically for human goalies, we expect you to press your right stick to take away that space.

    We are looking at more dynamic standing/set and butterfly posing that updates more relative to the puck positon that will look much more dynamic and help create better posing to take away more net relative to the puck. Something like that is more complex though so it wouldn't be seen in an update.

    For ai goalies, they make what we call pre-emptive saves. This is quite often how they stop breakaway dekes and one timers as they push over before they react to the actual shot/puck location and often just get hit with the puck or if they have time go into a reactionary save from that position. That is also what allows a player to deke over, get a goalie to pre-emptively stretch out to take away open net which maybe expose them to be tucked back 5 hole.

    The two systems are a bit different because we don't want to automatically play pre-emptive saves for a human taking away from their own manual control. They may feel they have time to slide into the post before the shot, or they may want to use one of the right stick slides to pre-emptively take away net.

    We will continue to improve these pieces while still trying to give players as much manual control as possible.

    I have heard you say you want control over your limbs but don't want to use the right stick to get across the net. Right now that is the control we have given for commitment. It is possible that we could separate these out so that you need to press both sticks to extend and and move and without left stick it would just extend your limb. It could be a very cool and is more possible with our more advanced layered tech that wouldn't force a full body animation unless you asked to butterfly or move but with how twitch it is, having to press one button to do something ( ie flick right stick) when it is that urgent felt like it may be better than multiple controls (left and right stick to the same side plus butterfly). All just design choices to try and give players as much control but also sensitive to not having any delays in actions you would want to happen really fast.

    But that is where we can have the goalies base posture update automatically relative to the puck based on where you are standing and how you are asking to move. That may end up being the best of both worlds, we will see.
  • VeNOM2099
    3178 posts Member
    EA_Aljo wrote: »

    Gotcha. Thanks for the info. I tend to cheat to the left so I can help out my AI D partner because I'm not super confident in them. Not that they step up a lot, but they can be kind of passive at times. Normally I crank up the Defensive Pressure to High Pressure and they play the carrier pretty tight, but not always. Most of the time they do ok on their own, but depending on the situation, I'll back them up better.
    TTZ_Dipsy wrote: »

    Huh, that's odd; you always told me your D partner was amazing and I needed to change my strategy

    Yeah, I thought the AI plays according to what the human player would be doing. Why cheat or not be confident in them? The rest of that sentence sounds an awful lot like skillzoning where you'll just hang back and let them chase the puck for a while and then you bring in your controlled player to try and take the puck away.

    Again, not trying to be a pain, but the contradictions we see coming from people at EA are starting to get frustrating. :/
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    edited March 2020
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    Again, not trying to be a pain, but the contradictions we see coming from people at EA are starting to get frustrating. :/
    EA_Aljo is just giving a personal perspective on how they play. They aren't a developer on the game team responsible for code or design so it isn't reasonable to hold them to that level.

    They ensure that we know about what people are saying across social platforms for anything we may not see ourselves but for any judgements on how things work, it is best to chat with me and take anything that anyone else says as an opinion on the game just as you would your own or anyone else on these boards as veteran/advanced players of this product.

    Obviously they have some extra inside info form conversations they have had with us and have direct lines of communication with us but all I ask is to be reasonable in how you treat people here.

    All that said, we should all be accountable for our contradictions and what we say. Let's just go into assuming we all want the game to play better and are here to help that process rather than there being some sort of wall because someone has an EA in their title.
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    Again, not trying to be a pain, but the contradictions we see coming from people at EA are starting to get frustrating. :/
    EA_Aljo is just giving a personal perspective on how they play. They aren't a developer on the game team responsible for code or design so it isn't reasonable to hold them to that level.

    They ensure that we know about what people are saying across social platforms for anything we may not see ourselves but for any judgements on how things work, it is best to chat with me and take anything that anyone else says as an opinion on the game just as you would your own or anyone else on these boards as veteran/advanced players of this product.

    Obviously they have some extra inside info form conversations they have had with us and have direct lines of communication with us but all I ask is to be reasonable in how you treat people here.

    All that said, we should all be accountable for our contradictions and what we say. Let's just go into assuming we all want the game to play better and are here to help that process rather than there being some sort of wall because someone has an EA in their title.

    I think what he was getting at is that he contradicted himself more than once, and that just comes off as him sticking up for the game any way he can, even if he says conflicting things....which is very confusing to us customers.
  • VeNOM2099
    3178 posts Member
    edited March 2020
    NHLDev wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    Again, not trying to be a pain, but the contradictions we see coming from people at EA are starting to get frustrating. :/
    EA_Aljo is just giving a personal perspective on how they play. They aren't a developer on the game team responsible for code or design so it isn't reasonable to hold them to that level.

    They ensure that we know about what people are saying across social platforms for anything we may not see ourselves but for any judgements on how things work, it is best to chat with me and take anything that anyone else says as an opinion on the game just as you would your own or anyone else on these boards as veteran/advanced players of this product.

    Obviously they have some extra inside info form conversations they have had with us and have direct lines of communication with us but all I ask is to be reasonable in how you treat people here.

    All that said, we should all be accountable for our contradictions and what we say. Let's just go into assuming we all want the game to play better and are here to help that process rather than there being some sort of wall because someone has an EA in their title.

    What @DetroitPride2114 said.

    As a customer (and a long time one at that), it gets frustrating when the people who are supposedly in the know, at least more in the know than the average consumer, come to the forums to answer our questions, and they give us conflicting information. In this instance, we were told that the human player is 100% accountable for AI behaviour by what they do on the virtual ice. Then we're told that the AI has to be coddled a bit because it can be unreliable. So which is it?

    When I mentioned about the game sliders, and you pointed out that what I said wasn't correct, I came back and said "Oops, you're right. My bad". Why can't EA reps do the same? Do they think we're gonna think less of them because they made a mistake or because they don't have the correct answers? Just say: "Hey look, you're right. They AI obviously has problems. We don't know why, but we'll see if we can get to the bottom of this".

    But that's not what happens. And that's not just the first time we get conflicting info like this.

    It's like we're being treated like little children who's parents tell one child one thing and the other child another and they think they can get away with it because children are stupid and won't put two and two together, right?

    It just adds another layer of frustration on top of everything. I know they're not a programmer. But we still get answers like "well I just play this way and the AI does what it's supposed to do". And then a few replys later it's "Oh, I cheat a little bit because the AI is unreliable". Do you see how that sounds?

    *sigh*...
  • Socair
    2815 posts Game Changer
    edited March 2020
    Gonna close this thread because of the road it’s going down. I’d like to remind everyone that we’re here to discuss the game, not to talk about each other or analyse opinions and take those to heart as a means to discredit.

    A CM can reopen this on Monday if they deem appropriate. I’d rather not have someone say something that crosses the line and have to sanction them.
This discussion has been closed.

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