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Going D to D - Let's Talk Defense

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  • smyth9779 wrote: »
    I already said. I know how the mechanics of the game work. DONT PLAY HOCKEY and you will be fine. Sorry it i dont find that fun. If I feel the need to go down to block a pass or a shot I should be able to do that without being penalized. It's simple. Do everything except play hockey. Sounds a little absurd considering it's a HOCKEY game.

    if you knew how the mechanics worked, you wouldn't claim it's broken.

    that doesn't seem to be the case. I get a tripping call when I trip, I don't when I time my poke or use my dss in the appropriate moments.

    but at this point, I don't think anyone is going to convince you the sky is blue, as you'll just keep insisting its red.
  • TheMajjam wrote: »
    DSS is a sorry and weak excuse to the poke argument. The only thing it's reliable for is for trying to keep players from cutting in, where you don't want them to cut. However, the flaw in DSS is that it slows you down too much. Not only that, but you're in just as much danger in taking a tripping penalty as you are taking a poke check penalty.

    The two biggest problems with the poke check is the coded percentage of picking one up and what your connection is. The percentage is way too high when I decide I'm not going to poke more than three times a game in fear of picking up a trip. Then there's the horrible connections that add to thinking that you were in perfect position for a poke, only for the input to happen a half-second too late.

    Then there's the "spamming" argument. The truth of the matter is that you don't have to spam poke to pick up a trip. There's plenty of times when there's a skater coming right at me while I'm skating backwards, I poke, and it goes through puck and stick, straight for the players feet as being one of the few times I try for the poke.

    In any case, people can say all they want, but can never back up their claims. Show me in a 5 v 5 or 6 v 6 unedited game where you poke defensively 10 times in a one on one situation and are successful 9 out of those 10 times and only pick up a trip once. Heck, bots have less than a 90% poke rate in a game.

    I certainly would love to see this, and will eat crow as soon as I do.


    no one can convince someone of their beliefs once they've decided they're absolutely right. no sense providing proof of anything as you'll point out something else and move the goal posts. Just how this kinda thing works. I'll agree to disagree with you. You keep taking penalties, i'll enjoy the game.

    cheers.
  • TheMajjam
    794 posts Member
    edited April 2020
    TheMajjam wrote: »
    DSS is a sorry and weak excuse to the poke argument. The only thing it's reliable for is for trying to keep players from cutting in, where you don't want them to cut. However, the flaw in DSS is that it slows you down too much. Not only that, but you're in just as much danger in taking a tripping penalty as you are taking a poke check penalty.

    The two biggest problems with the poke check is the coded percentage of picking one up and what your connection is. The percentage is way too high when I decide I'm not going to poke more than three times a game in fear of picking up a trip. Then there's the horrible connections that add to thinking that you were in perfect position for a poke, only for the input to happen a half-second too late.

    Then there's the "spamming" argument. The truth of the matter is that you don't have to spam poke to pick up a trip. There's plenty of times when there's a skater coming right at me while I'm skating backwards, I poke, and it goes through puck and stick, straight for the players feet as being one of the few times I try for the poke.

    In any case, people can say all they want, but can never back up their claims. Show me in a 5 v 5 or 6 v 6 unedited game where you poke defensively 10 times in a one on one situation and are successful 9 out of those 10 times and only pick up a trip once. Heck, bots have less than a 90% poke rate in a game.

    I certainly would love to see this, and will eat crow as soon as I do.


    no one can convince someone of their beliefs once they've decided they're absolutely right. no sense providing proof of anything as you'll point out something else and move the goal posts. Just how this kinda thing works. I'll agree to disagree with you. You keep taking penalties, i'll enjoy the game.

    cheers.

    I deal in facts. I also said if someone can show me a 90%+ poke rate in a full clubs game using more than 10 pokes, that I would be impressed and eat crow. Mostly because I know would never, ever poke more than 10 times a game. I'm lucky if I go for three pokes in a game. The trip rate is not even forcing people to use the poke smartly. It just forces players with sense to rarely use it.

    uSCrkIJ.jpg

    As you can see, in over 850+ games, I've taken 425 PM. Most of those are for the god awful stick lifts that seek to decapitate an opponent even when he's right next to me. Or a hook. Or charging. Most people will laugh at me, but I'm proud of that ratio being a pure D-man in a Div 1 world. I've seen forwards with more than double the amount of PM than games they've played. I think I've adjusted to the mechanics of the game quite well, but just because I've adjusted doesn't mean that the mechanics are right. If that was the case, developers would never patch their games, nor would players seek to fixed unpatched mechanics with mods.

    Have fun enjoying the game!
  • EA_Aljo wrote: »
    My problem with defense is when you are in perfect position back-skating with an opponent in front of you, what should be an easy stick poke turns into a tripping like 9 times out if 10. Instead you are forced to play passive d and just rub into them hoping they lose it. If you lay a big hit there is a good chance the puck goes directly to their next team mate and you are out of the play for committing to the hit. I love defense and it is fun but your hands are tied in what you can do most of the time.

    I use the poke check all the time and really don't take many penalties. If you're perfectly poking, you won't be taking them 9/10 times. Try using DSS instead. It's more forgiving as you need to sweep the stick from inside their leg to the outside. I also play with guys that don't take a ton of penalties. It takes some practice of course, but it's definitely possible to use the poke check effectively.

    Just because you don't take penalties doesn't mean poke checking isn't broken, because it most certainly is.

    Don't tap the poke button. Hold it and use the rs to sweep it. . Dss works great once you learn the mechanic.

    If you're just tapping it hoping for contact, you'll probably trip them depending on the situation.

    Yeah because that's what happens in real Hockey. NHLers avoid poke checking because they know real world physics are broken and it will result in penalties 90% of the time, so they revert to sweeping their sticks instead.

    EA Devs "It's not us, it's you"

    This is why this game is in such a bad place.

    Dude, learn the mechanics of the game and how to properly utilize them.
    Continually making the same mistakes and expecting different results... Well I'm sure most know what that is.

    Watch some tutorials of how the game works. There's clearly an issue involving your refusal to learn how the game works.

    Poke check has its place, and works when utilized properly. Your problem is that you don't seem to understand how to use the dss, and then claim it's the game, when clearly it's your own lack of understanding the mechanics of the game.

    If you want a real world 1 to 1 replica, you're not gonna get that until we have some kind of star trek holodeck type technology.

    Either learn how the game mechanics work, or keep being frustrated.

    I'd be angry too if I kept trying to eat with my rear end instead of my mouth, only to find I just can't seem to make it work.

    I know how HOCKEY works, and this is not it. So EA breaks poke checking and we have to work around their incompetence? OK. Next year every hit will result in a penalty, and you apologists will be like "Dude it's easy, quit hitting. Watch some tutorials on how not to hit"

    SMH
    they "changed" how it works, they didn't break it. You just haven't adapted to the change yet.

    there's a difference between something being broken and you not using it right. If you got a penalty every time you hit someone, it would be because you're charging or interfering. You're implying a broken mechanic, I'm implying its you incorrectly using the mechanic. Poke check and DSS works when used right. You get a penalty when used wrong. It works.

    This is a game at the end of the day. Either learn how the mechanics of the game work, or continue thinking its broken. If I played Forza, and they changed how shifting worked, but I refused to learn how the new shifting worked, it might seem broken to me.

    this is on you bud.

    It's thinking like this as to why this game is doomed.

    It's sad because this game used to be good just 5 short years ago.

    So sad.
  • EA_Aljo wrote: »
    My problem with defense is when you are in perfect position back-skating with an opponent in front of you, what should be an easy stick poke turns into a tripping like 9 times out if 10. Instead you are forced to play passive d and just rub into them hoping they lose it. If you lay a big hit there is a good chance the puck goes directly to their next team mate and you are out of the play for committing to the hit. I love defense and it is fun but your hands are tied in what you can do most of the time.

    I use the poke check all the time and really don't take many penalties. If you're perfectly poking, you won't be taking them 9/10 times. Try using DSS instead. It's more forgiving as you need to sweep the stick from inside their leg to the outside. I also play with guys that don't take a ton of penalties. It takes some practice of course, but it's definitely possible to use the poke check effectively.

    Just because you don't take penalties doesn't mean poke checking isn't broken, because it most certainly is.

    Don't tap the poke button. Hold it and use the rs to sweep it. . Dss works great once you learn the mechanic.

    If you're just tapping it hoping for contact, you'll probably trip them depending on the situation.

    Yeah because that's what happens in real Hockey. NHLers avoid poke checking because they know real world physics are broken and it will result in penalties 90% of the time, so they revert to sweeping their sticks instead.

    EA Devs "It's not us, it's you"

    This is why this game is in such a bad place.

    Dude, learn the mechanics of the game and how to properly utilize them.
    Continually making the same mistakes and expecting different results... Well I'm sure most know what that is.

    Watch some tutorials of how the game works. There's clearly an issue involving your refusal to learn how the game works.

    Poke check has its place, and works when utilized properly. Your problem is that you don't seem to understand how to use the dss, and then claim it's the game, when clearly it's your own lack of understanding the mechanics of the game.

    If you want a real world 1 to 1 replica, you're not gonna get that until we have some kind of star trek holodeck type technology.

    Either learn how the game mechanics work, or keep being frustrated.

    I'd be angry too if I kept trying to eat with my rear end instead of my mouth, only to find I just can't seem to make it work.

    I know how HOCKEY works, and this is not it. So EA breaks poke checking and we have to work around their incompetence? OK. Next year every hit will result in a penalty, and you apologists will be like "Dude it's easy, quit hitting. Watch some tutorials on how not to hit"

    SMH
    they "changed" how it works, they didn't break it. You just haven't adapted to the change yet.

    there's a difference between something being broken and you not using it right. If you got a penalty every time you hit someone, it would be because you're charging or interfering. You're implying a broken mechanic, I'm implying its you incorrectly using the mechanic. Poke check and DSS works when used right. You get a penalty when used wrong. It works.

    This is a game at the end of the day. Either learn how the mechanics of the game work, or continue thinking its broken. If I played Forza, and they changed how shifting worked, but I refused to learn how the new shifting worked, it might seem broken to me.

    this is on you bud.

    It's thinking like this as to why this game is doomed.

    It's sad because this game used to be good just 5 short years ago.

    So sad.

    These responses are due to the use of the word “broken”. Now, I certainly don’t agree that DSS is in a great state with how precise and situational the tool seems to be, but refraining from using the word “broken” would mitigate these scenarios. Argue that the meta or state of the tool isn’t appropriate rather than that the tool is “broken” because it is a fully functional tool.
  • EA_Aljo wrote: »
    My problem with defense is when you are in perfect position back-skating with an opponent in front of you, what should be an easy stick poke turns into a tripping like 9 times out if 10. Instead you are forced to play passive d and just rub into them hoping they lose it. If you lay a big hit there is a good chance the puck goes directly to their next team mate and you are out of the play for committing to the hit. I love defense and it is fun but your hands are tied in what you can do most of the time.

    I use the poke check all the time and really don't take many penalties. If you're perfectly poking, you won't be taking them 9/10 times. Try using DSS instead. It's more forgiving as you need to sweep the stick from inside their leg to the outside. I also play with guys that don't take a ton of penalties. It takes some practice of course, but it's definitely possible to use the poke check effectively.

    Just because you don't take penalties doesn't mean poke checking isn't broken, because it most certainly is.

    Don't tap the poke button. Hold it and use the rs to sweep it. . Dss works great once you learn the mechanic.

    If you're just tapping it hoping for contact, you'll probably trip them depending on the situation.

    Yeah because that's what happens in real Hockey. NHLers avoid poke checking because they know real world physics are broken and it will result in penalties 90% of the time, so they revert to sweeping their sticks instead.

    EA Devs "It's not us, it's you"

    This is why this game is in such a bad place.

    Dude, learn the mechanics of the game and how to properly utilize them.
    Continually making the same mistakes and expecting different results... Well I'm sure most know what that is.

    Watch some tutorials of how the game works. There's clearly an issue involving your refusal to learn how the game works.

    Poke check has its place, and works when utilized properly. Your problem is that you don't seem to understand how to use the dss, and then claim it's the game, when clearly it's your own lack of understanding the mechanics of the game.

    If you want a real world 1 to 1 replica, you're not gonna get that until we have some kind of star trek holodeck type technology.

    Either learn how the game mechanics work, or keep being frustrated.

    I'd be angry too if I kept trying to eat with my rear end instead of my mouth, only to find I just can't seem to make it work.

    I know how HOCKEY works, and this is not it. So EA breaks poke checking and we have to work around their incompetence? OK. Next year every hit will result in a penalty, and you apologists will be like "Dude it's easy, quit hitting. Watch some tutorials on how not to hit"

    SMH
    they "changed" how it works, they didn't break it. You just haven't adapted to the change yet.

    there's a difference between something being broken and you not using it right. If you got a penalty every time you hit someone, it would be because you're charging or interfering. You're implying a broken mechanic, I'm implying its you incorrectly using the mechanic. Poke check and DSS works when used right. You get a penalty when used wrong. It works.

    This is a game at the end of the day. Either learn how the mechanics of the game work, or continue thinking its broken. If I played Forza, and they changed how shifting worked, but I refused to learn how the new shifting worked, it might seem broken to me.

    this is on you bud.

    It's thinking like this as to why this game is doomed.

    It's sad because this game used to be good just 5 short years ago.

    So sad.

    These responses are due to the use of the word “broken”. Now, I certainly don’t agree that DSS is in a great state with how precise and situational the tool seems to be, but refraining from using the word “broken” would mitigate these scenarios. Argue that the meta or state of the tool isn’t appropriate rather than that the tool is “broken” because it is a fully functional tool.

    Fair enough Sir!
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    Posted these in other threads talking about defensive mechanics but thought they were good since they are community created and talk about the mechanics from their perspective rather than development saying how they are expected to work, etc..

    Hope they help people.





  • TTZ_Dipsy
    457 posts Member
    edited April 2020
    You're quite susceptible to passes going through you when using DSS and you have a greater chance of netting yourself a tripping penalty if the opposing player moves towards you - in most cases it's easier/better to just skate into them and hope for some incidental assist.

    Even small snipers can somehow brush off my 6'1 grinder hits, there is too much delay with the new hip check button mapping, DSS isn't much of a deterrant when the poke sensitivity is high (I like how poke checks are now but this can be abused in a video game).

    Players can still skate through sticks too so that'll need some tweaks.

    I understand it would involve constant effort/work but I would love to see a CTE area where we can actually test things on the fly (unranked of course). Not just your HUT streamers, I mean regular players can give their opinion on fully solid sticks or an experimental new limb positioning system for shot blocks etc.

    It's not that defense doesn't have the tools, it's that D has to be absolutely perfect to get the most out of the position while offense has almost all the control.

    Post edited by TTZ_Dipsy on
  • TTZ_Dipsy wrote: »
    You're quite susceptible to passes going through you when using DSS and you have a greater chance of netting yourself a tripping penalty if the opposing player moves towards you - in most cases it's easier/better to just skate into them and hope for some incidental assist.

    Even small snipers can somehow brush off my 6'1 grinder hits, there is too much delay with the new hip check button mapping, DDS isn't much of a deterrant when the poke sensitivity is high (I like how poke checks are now but this can be abused in a video game).

    Players can still skate through sticks too so that'll need some tweaks.

    I understand it would involve constant effort/work but I would love to see a CTE area where we can actually test things on the fly (unranked of course). Not just your HUT streamers, I mean regular players can give their opinion on fully solid sticks or an experimental new limb positioning system for shot blocks etc.

    It's not that defense doesn't have the tools, it's that D has to be absolutely perfect to get the most out of the position while offense has almost all the control.

    100% agree here. There’s too much precision required by defensemen compared to how easy puck control and deking are for forwards. DSS should not be so much of a risk if you want people to actually use more than as a specialty to. Attacking the stick in real hockey is a given, not limited to prestige conditions where I’m 99% sure my stick won’t touch the attacker. I’d like to see that resembled a lot more in this game.
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    edited April 2020
    TTZ_Dipsy wrote: »
    You're quite susceptible to passes going through you when using DSS and you have a greater chance of netting yourself a tripping penalty if the opposing player moves towards you - in most cases it's easier/better to just skate into them and hope for some incidental assist.

    Even small snipers can somehow brush off my 6'1 grinder hits, there is too much delay with the new hip check button mapping, DDS isn't much of a deterrant when the poke sensitivity is high (I like how poke checks are now but this can be abused in a video game).

    Players can still skate through sticks too so that'll need some tweaks.

    I understand it would involve constant effort/work but I would love to see a CTE area where we can actually test things on the fly (unranked of course). Not just your HUT streamers, I mean regular players can give their opinion on fully solid sticks or an experimental new limb positioning system for shot blocks etc.

    It's not that defense doesn't have the tools, it's that D has to be absolutely perfect to get the most out of the position while offense has almost all the control.

    DSS gives control over your stick placement and a bigger range relative to your positioning and facing than just your positioning alone.

    If you can just skate into the player and occupy the same space as them to disrupt them or separate them from the puck using body contact, then that is great but if they still have options and ice to play with, as a defender you need to try and limit them and often have to keep a better gap and that is where your body position and DSS to angle come in handy. From there you can throw in some pokes to disrupt as well but agressively going in for a body check or stick check when the puck carrier has options is never the right play unless you do catch them off guard. High risk, high reward though.

    So you use the tools to limit your puck carriers options and then when they commit, you close them off and use the proper tool to disrupt possession and cause a turn over.

    When in DSS you aren't able to intercept the puck but if you see the pass coming you can let go of DSS and your player can blend into a pickup. If you are already in a pass lane, you don't need to be in DSS but quite often you can be further goal side positioning wise and reach out further with DSS to put your stick in a pass lane which can allow you to manually make contact with the puck through stick positioning alone or you can click in R3 to poke towards the moving puck as well. Plenty of passes can be disrupted just with DSS alone but it is more to give you extra reach where it wouldn't be a clean interception anyways unless you skated closer to that reach location and played a regular pickup which you have manual control to do.

    As for penalties, DSS has a lot of forgiving pieces to it. You can swing your stick right through one leg outside to in and not get a penalty. If you go through that leg first, it won't allow you to make contact with the puck carriers stick or the puck but you won't trip them either.

    If you let go of DSS, you won't get a penalty if contact is made during the blend out of the action so if you actually read the player driving in to your stick and can't keep it out away from their skates, you can just let go and avoid the penalty as well. The videos above show some cases where it is used quite a bit with control and doesn't actually go into the forgiveness around penalties but I have been on streams where people are asking the streamer how they aren't taking penalties and it is due to that logic and the players skill.

    And to your other comment, we are certainly always looking to improve the mechanics of the game though and would love to have more ways to test the game going forward and getting pieces into more peoples hands. Technology is only opening more doors for that sort of thing.
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    TTZ_Dipsy wrote: »
    You're quite susceptible to passes going through you when using DSS and you have a greater chance of netting yourself a tripping penalty if the opposing player moves towards you - in most cases it's easier/better to just skate into them and hope for some incidental assist.

    Even small snipers can somehow brush off my 6'1 grinder hits, there is too much delay with the new hip check button mapping, DDS isn't much of a deterrant when the poke sensitivity is high (I like how poke checks are now but this can be abused in a video game).

    Players can still skate through sticks too so that'll need some tweaks.

    I understand it would involve constant effort/work but I would love to see a CTE area where we can actually test things on the fly (unranked of course). Not just your HUT streamers, I mean regular players can give their opinion on fully solid sticks or an experimental new limb positioning system for shot blocks etc.

    It's not that defense doesn't have the tools, it's that D has to be absolutely perfect to get the most out of the position while offense has almost all the control.

    DSS gives control over your stick placement and a bigger range relative to your positioning and facing than just your positioning alone.

    If you can just skate into the player and occupy the same space as them to disrupt them or separate them from the puck using body contact, then that is great but if they still have options and ice to play with, as a defender you need to try and limit them and often have to keep a better gap and that is where your body position and DSS to angle come in handy. From there you can throw in some pokes to disrupt as well but agressively going in for a body check or stick check when the puck carrier has options is never the right play unless you do catch them off guard. High risk, high reward though.

    So you use the tools to limit your puck carriers options and then when they commit, you close them off and use the proper tool to disrupt possession and cause a turn over.

    When in DSS you aren't able to intercept the puck but if you see the pass coming you can let go of DSS and your player can blend into a pickup. If you are already in a pass lane, you don't need to be in DSS but quite often you can be further goal side positioning wise and reach out further with DSS to put your stick in a pass lane which can allow you to manually make contact with the puck through stick positioning alone or you can click in R3 to poke towards the moving puck as well. Plenty of passes can be disrupted just with DSS alone but it is more to give you extra reach where it wouldn't be a clean interception anyways unless you skated closer to that reach location and played a regular pickup which you have manual control to do.

    As for penalties, DSS has a lot of forgiving pieces to it. You can swing your stick right through one leg outside to in and not get a penalty. If you go through that leg first, it won't allow you to make contact with the puck carriers stick or the puck but you won't trip them either.

    If you let go of DSS, you won't get a penalty if contact is made during the blend out of the action so if you actually read the player driving in to your stick and can't keep it out away from their skates, you can just let go and avoid the penalty as well. The videos above show some cases where it is used quite a bit with control and doesn't actually go into the forgiveness around penalties but I have been on streams where people are asking the streamer how they aren't taking penalties and it is due to that logic and the players skill.

    And to your other comment, we are certainly always looking to improve the mechanics of the game though and would love to have more ways to test the game going forward and getting pieces into more peoples hands. Technology is only opening more doors for that sort of thing.

    I agree that DSS is a lot more forgiving than it used to be due to feedback and your changes. I guess where I get confused as a defender though, is that forwards are allowed to deke through legs and get into puck-pickup animations through legs assuming the puck doesn’t hit the skate, right? If I’m wrong, disregard this entire post as I’m mainly talking through my experience playing the AI who do things with the puck the user can’t, so I could easily be wrong here.

    These scenarios where sticks ignore legs are usually defended by saying that we don’t have enough granular control of sticks in this game and full stick collisions would be an awful experience (I agree with everything here and trust your assessment. This is a video game after all) so that’s why this is possible. So from a game-balance perspective, I believe I should be able to swing my DSS through both legs as long I don’t click R3 to actually perform a poke check. Again, I don’t have enough granular control with my stick to pull it around skates then out to attack in this game, so why wouldn’t “passive” DSS be given the same benefit of the doubt as deking?

    My immediate thought is because the current system reduces the amount of breakaways being caught/disrupted by this as forwards would see their positioning advantage decreased, but I’d rather see that due to a combination of fatigue mattering more and acceleration being decreased rather than this system where it seems somewhat inconsistent as to who gets to defy physics/realism for the sake of flow.

    I think we could up puck carrier speed, decrease overall acceleration, increase fatigue effect, and make passive DSS even more forgiving and still see a lot of breakaways. I just can tell from watching these GWC HUT streams that defense is still a very passive position. Maybe even increase the speed hit DSS has on a player to further encourage good body positioning, as we all know that the 18 spam pokes on breakaways is what we’re trying to eliminate from the game. I just would like to see way more stick play on rushes and in the corners then what the online meta currently has. I think there’s ways to do that without seeing NHL 18 again, you know?
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    edited April 2020
    NHLDev wrote: »
    TTZ_Dipsy wrote: »
    You're quite susceptible to passes going through you when using DSS and you have a greater chance of netting yourself a tripping penalty if the opposing player moves towards you - in most cases it's easier/better to just skate into them and hope for some incidental assist.

    Even small snipers can somehow brush off my 6'1 grinder hits, there is too much delay with the new hip check button mapping, DDS isn't much of a deterrant when the poke sensitivity is high (I like how poke checks are now but this can be abused in a video game).

    Players can still skate through sticks too so that'll need some tweaks.

    I understand it would involve constant effort/work but I would love to see a CTE area where we can actually test things on the fly (unranked of course). Not just your HUT streamers, I mean regular players can give their opinion on fully solid sticks or an experimental new limb positioning system for shot blocks etc.

    It's not that defense doesn't have the tools, it's that D has to be absolutely perfect to get the most out of the position while offense has almost all the control.

    DSS gives control over your stick placement and a bigger range relative to your positioning and facing than just your positioning alone.

    If you can just skate into the player and occupy the same space as them to disrupt them or separate them from the puck using body contact, then that is great but if they still have options and ice to play with, as a defender you need to try and limit them and often have to keep a better gap and that is where your body position and DSS to angle come in handy. From there you can throw in some pokes to disrupt as well but agressively going in for a body check or stick check when the puck carrier has options is never the right play unless you do catch them off guard. High risk, high reward though.

    So you use the tools to limit your puck carriers options and then when they commit, you close them off and use the proper tool to disrupt possession and cause a turn over.

    When in DSS you aren't able to intercept the puck but if you see the pass coming you can let go of DSS and your player can blend into a pickup. If you are already in a pass lane, you don't need to be in DSS but quite often you can be further goal side positioning wise and reach out further with DSS to put your stick in a pass lane which can allow you to manually make contact with the puck through stick positioning alone or you can click in R3 to poke towards the moving puck as well. Plenty of passes can be disrupted just with DSS alone but it is more to give you extra reach where it wouldn't be a clean interception anyways unless you skated closer to that reach location and played a regular pickup which you have manual control to do.

    As for penalties, DSS has a lot of forgiving pieces to it. You can swing your stick right through one leg outside to in and not get a penalty. If you go through that leg first, it won't allow you to make contact with the puck carriers stick or the puck but you won't trip them either.

    If you let go of DSS, you won't get a penalty if contact is made during the blend out of the action so if you actually read the player driving in to your stick and can't keep it out away from their skates, you can just let go and avoid the penalty as well. The videos above show some cases where it is used quite a bit with control and doesn't actually go into the forgiveness around penalties but I have been on streams where people are asking the streamer how they aren't taking penalties and it is due to that logic and the players skill.

    And to your other comment, we are certainly always looking to improve the mechanics of the game though and would love to have more ways to test the game going forward and getting pieces into more peoples hands. Technology is only opening more doors for that sort of thing.

    I agree that DSS is a lot more forgiving than it used to be due to feedback and your changes. I guess where I get confused as a defender though, is that forwards are allowed to deke through legs and get into puck-pickup animations through legs assuming the puck doesn’t hit the skate, right? If I’m wrong, disregard this entire post as I’m mainly talking through my experience playing the AI who do things with the puck the user can’t, so I could easily be wrong here.

    These scenarios where sticks ignore legs are usually defended by saying that we don’t have enough granular control of sticks in this game and full stick collisions would be an awful experience (I agree with everything here and trust your assessment. This is a video game after all) so that’s why this is possible. So from a game-balance perspective, I believe I should be able to swing my DSS through both legs as long I don’t click R3 to actually perform a poke check. Again, I don’t have enough granular control with my stick to pull it around skates then out to attack in this game, so why wouldn’t “passive” DSS be given the same benefit of the doubt as deking?

    My immediate thought is because the current system reduces the amount of breakaways being caught/disrupted by this as forwards would see their positioning advantage decreased, but I’d rather see that due to a combination of fatigue mattering more and acceleration being decreased rather than this system where it seems somewhat inconsistent as to who gets to defy physics/realism for the sake of flow.

    I think we could up puck carrier speed, decrease overall acceleration, increase fatigue effect, and make passive DSS even more forgiving and still see a lot of breakaways. I just can tell from watching these GWC HUT streams that defense is still a very passive position. Maybe even increase the speed hit DSS has on a player to further encourage good body positioning, as we all know that the 18 spam pokes on breakaways is what we’re trying to eliminate from the game. I just would like to see way more stick play on rushes and in the corners then what the online meta currently has. I think there’s ways to do that without seeing NHL 18 again, you know?

    I know you said to ignore it if those pieces weren't true but I do want to make sure you know how those pieces work.

    If an offensive players stick goes through a defenders stick or body, it won't allow them to receive a pass or complete a one timer. I was actually sent a video by a player the other day asking why the puck went through a stick blade on a one timer attempt and it was because the stick first went through the defenders stick to get there.

    There isn't really a passive DSS state as at all times the stick will make stick on stick and stick on puck contact that will disrupt possession. When you disrupt possession, the offensive player has a window where they can't regain control of the puck or attempt a new pickup (this simulates their stick being moved away/disrupted which is a bigger window for when their stick is disrupted by the body of the defense and a bit less when it is the stick as there is more or less to avoid. Then depending on the original puck carriers attributes, there is a multiplier on that window in regards to where they are between getting the shortest and longest black out period to attempt to regain possession but they can't be faster than the min even with the best attributes. We also increased these windows a few times this year towards defense. If you hit the actual puck, it usually goes further away and isn't as common for the puck carrier to have a play on it.

    That idea you have around passive DSS vs active poke is why the rules around tripping are different for both; we consider the poke to be a more forceful action and that is why you can trip a player easier when you are off with it where as DSS shows more control for when you may be trying to reach in and only go through the one leg (which would just be deflected away in real life) and can stop yourself or blend out of the action inside that window before you swipe through both legs. There is more we can do for sure but the balance is tuned knowing what both offense and defense are capable of currently. If we went with something more realistic where there were less trips, there would also be more cases where a player with the puck wouldn't be as easily effected by an outstretched stick with one hand either. The leverage you get at different angles would change to be more or less, etc. so both sides gain a little bit and balance with each other.
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    TTZ_Dipsy wrote: »
    You're quite susceptible to passes going through you when using DSS and you have a greater chance of netting yourself a tripping penalty if the opposing player moves towards you - in most cases it's easier/better to just skate into them and hope for some incidental assist.

    Even small snipers can somehow brush off my 6'1 grinder hits, there is too much delay with the new hip check button mapping, DDS isn't much of a deterrant when the poke sensitivity is high (I like how poke checks are now but this can be abused in a video game).

    Players can still skate through sticks too so that'll need some tweaks.

    I understand it would involve constant effort/work but I would love to see a CTE area where we can actually test things on the fly (unranked of course). Not just your HUT streamers, I mean regular players can give their opinion on fully solid sticks or an experimental new limb positioning system for shot blocks etc.

    It's not that defense doesn't have the tools, it's that D has to be absolutely perfect to get the most out of the position while offense has almost all the control.

    DSS gives control over your stick placement and a bigger range relative to your positioning and facing than just your positioning alone.

    If you can just skate into the player and occupy the same space as them to disrupt them or separate them from the puck using body contact, then that is great but if they still have options and ice to play with, as a defender you need to try and limit them and often have to keep a better gap and that is where your body position and DSS to angle come in handy. From there you can throw in some pokes to disrupt as well but agressively going in for a body check or stick check when the puck carrier has options is never the right play unless you do catch them off guard. High risk, high reward though.

    So you use the tools to limit your puck carriers options and then when they commit, you close them off and use the proper tool to disrupt possession and cause a turn over.

    When in DSS you aren't able to intercept the puck but if you see the pass coming you can let go of DSS and your player can blend into a pickup. If you are already in a pass lane, you don't need to be in DSS but quite often you can be further goal side positioning wise and reach out further with DSS to put your stick in a pass lane which can allow you to manually make contact with the puck through stick positioning alone or you can click in R3 to poke towards the moving puck as well. Plenty of passes can be disrupted just with DSS alone but it is more to give you extra reach where it wouldn't be a clean interception anyways unless you skated closer to that reach location and played a regular pickup which you have manual control to do.

    As for penalties, DSS has a lot of forgiving pieces to it. You can swing your stick right through one leg outside to in and not get a penalty. If you go through that leg first, it won't allow you to make contact with the puck carriers stick or the puck but you won't trip them either.

    If you let go of DSS, you won't get a penalty if contact is made during the blend out of the action so if you actually read the player driving in to your stick and can't keep it out away from their skates, you can just let go and avoid the penalty as well. The videos above show some cases where it is used quite a bit with control and doesn't actually go into the forgiveness around penalties but I have been on streams where people are asking the streamer how they aren't taking penalties and it is due to that logic and the players skill.

    And to your other comment, we are certainly always looking to improve the mechanics of the game though and would love to have more ways to test the game going forward and getting pieces into more peoples hands. Technology is only opening more doors for that sort of thing.

    I agree that DSS is a lot more forgiving than it used to be due to feedback and your changes. I guess where I get confused as a defender though, is that forwards are allowed to deke through legs and get into puck-pickup animations through legs assuming the puck doesn’t hit the skate, right? If I’m wrong, disregard this entire post as I’m mainly talking through my experience playing the AI who do things with the puck the user can’t, so I could easily be wrong here.

    These scenarios where sticks ignore legs are usually defended by saying that we don’t have enough granular control of sticks in this game and full stick collisions would be an awful experience (I agree with everything here and trust your assessment. This is a video game after all) so that’s why this is possible. So from a game-balance perspective, I believe I should be able to swing my DSS through both legs as long I don’t click R3 to actually perform a poke check. Again, I don’t have enough granular control with my stick to pull it around skates then out to attack in this game, so why wouldn’t “passive” DSS be given the same benefit of the doubt as deking?

    My immediate thought is because the current system reduces the amount of breakaways being caught/disrupted by this as forwards would see their positioning advantage decreased, but I’d rather see that due to a combination of fatigue mattering more and acceleration being decreased rather than this system where it seems somewhat inconsistent as to who gets to defy physics/realism for the sake of flow.

    I think we could up puck carrier speed, decrease overall acceleration, increase fatigue effect, and make passive DSS even more forgiving and still see a lot of breakaways. I just can tell from watching these GWC HUT streams that defense is still a very passive position. Maybe even increase the speed hit DSS has on a player to further encourage good body positioning, as we all know that the 18 spam pokes on breakaways is what we’re trying to eliminate from the game. I just would like to see way more stick play on rushes and in the corners then what the online meta currently has. I think there’s ways to do that without seeing NHL 18 again, you know?

    I know you said to ignore it if those pieces weren't true but I do want to make sure you know how those pieces work.

    If an offensive players stick goes through a defenders stick or body, it won't allow them to receive a pass or complete a one timer. I was actually sent a video by a player the other day asking why the puck went through a stick blade on a one timer attempt and it was because the stick first went through the defenders stick to get there.

    There isn't really a passive DSS state as at all times the stick will make stick on stick and stick on puck contact that will disrupt possession. When you disrupt possession, the offensive player has a window where they can't regain control of the puck or attempt a new pickup (this simulates their stick being moved away/disrupted which is a bigger window for when their stick is disrupted by the body of the defense and a bit less when it is the stick as there is more or less to avoid. Then depending on the original puck carriers attributes, there is a multiplier on that window in regards to where they are between getting the shortest and longest black out period to attempt to regain possession but they can't be faster than the min even with the best attributes. We also increased these windows a few times this year towards defense. If you hit the actual puck, it usually goes further away and isn't as common for the puck carrier to have a play on it.

    That idea you have around passive DSS vs active poke is why the rules around tripping are different for both; we consider the poke to be a more forceful action and that is why you can trip a player easier when you are off with it where as DSS shows more control for when you may be trying to reach in and only go through the one leg (which would just be deflected away in real life) and can stop yourself or blend out of the action inside that window before you swipe through both legs. There is more we can do for sure but the balance is tuned knowing what both offense and defense are capable of currently. If we went with something more realistic where there were less trips, there would also be more cases where a player with the puck wouldn't be as easily effected by an outstretched stick with one hand either. The leverage you get at different angles would change to be more or less, etc. so both sides gain a little bit and balance with each other.

    Thanks for the response. My first part I was referring to simple RS deking, that’s allowed to go through legs (not skates) without losing possession right? I had no intention of including one-timers or pass receptions cause I haven’t seen a problem with those personally haha.

    Secondly, I think making that “passive” DSS state way less effective at disrupting puck possession and also way less susceptible to trips (making It essentially the defensive version of deking) would be a huge improvement to flow of the game and defensive player engagement.

    If you make hitting a tad more effective (closer to 19 beta) and turn pass interceptions way down, I’m envisioning a game where holding “passive” DSS out to mirror the passer’s stick and also holding out DSS to interfere with a potential one-timer shooter’s stick path would really increase the overall 6’s skill gap and help defenders be more actively involved in the play. I think this would be especially nice for 1v1 modes so you can more easily counter people who constantly spin. I can constantly mirror your stick if I don’t need to worry about a trip. It seems a little silly, but again with the lack of granular stick control we have because it’s a video game, I think it’d be more fun an encourage people to try and deflect shots up into the net and take away passing lanes by mirroring the offensive players stick rather than feathering around in the low slot hoping an auto animation kicks in. Plus I think it’d mitigate a lot of the “clumping” in-front of the net in 6s so we could start seeing some more 1-on-1 battles with more skill, dekes, and hopefully more open-ice as a result.

    I know you’d have to tweak the balancing with leverage and all that stuff, but I think it’d actually benefit a lot of parties. More casual-friendly while adding a skill gap is what I see would happen with that approach.
  • TheMajjam
    794 posts Member
    edited April 2020
    TTZ_Dipsy wrote: »
    You're quite susceptible to passes going through you when using DSS and you have a greater chance of netting yourself a tripping penalty if the opposing player moves towards you - in most cases it's easier/better to just skate into them and hope for some incidental assist.

    Even small snipers can somehow brush off my 6'1 grinder hits, there is too much delay with the new hip check button mapping, DSS isn't much of a deterrant when the poke sensitivity is high (I like how poke checks are now but this can be abused in a video game).

    Players can still skate through sticks too so that'll need some tweaks.

    I understand it would involve constant effort/work but I would love to see a CTE area where we can actually test things on the fly (unranked of course). Not just your HUT streamers, I mean regular players can give their opinion on fully solid sticks or an experimental new limb positioning system for shot blocks etc.

    It's not that defense doesn't have the tools, it's that D has to be absolutely perfect to get the most out of the position while offense has almost all the control.

    Great post. Absolutely great post. Concur with everything here.

    I also wish 'regular players' could could be a test bed like 'streamers'. I'm 29th on the XB leaderboards for PMD, 56th for the overall D class, on a team that's 333-36-14. I'd like to think we know quite a bit about the position. Our entire game is built around a stifling team defense that likes to wait for other teams to make a mistake to make a move.

    We're successful and I still think the defensive game in NHL is at a disadvantage. How could it not be? A forward can fly down the ice and string together deke after deke after deke and not lose the puck, while I poke and/or DSS one time to try to impede his progress because I can barely hit the guy and pick up a penalty doing so. It's very unforgiving and stressful.

    Also, HUT and 6's Club play is so much more different. HUT defensive play will get you obliterated in 6's. No team worth its name in 6's club has a D-man running all over the ice in his own zone with his DSS out to stop players. Speed is the name of the game and excellent teams draw penalties by deking through your DDS or run you in circles with their passing.

    Position and incidental contact to knock the puck lose are the best methods of D in this game. Why do I even need a stick to play D? It's just a penalty magnet. Poke = tripping penalty, DSS = tripping penalty, Stick lift = hooking/high-stick/slashing penalty, Block shot = tripping penalty, Desperation dive = tripping penalty, tie up = Interference penalty.

    I'm not saying that there shouldn't be penalties, but the rate needs to be lowered for the trips man. The risk is ALL on the defense and very little for the forwards, and that's where the disparity in the balance lies.

    One of tonight's games. Great game and tied 3-3 with 2:58 left in the 3rd. Who takes a penalty on their team? THE BOT D-MAN. What penalty you ask? Guess. We scored 6 seconds later to seal the deal. I guess the bot does not understand the game's mechanics.

    yGyU06l.png

    T7rxdue.png

    Vy7FHLK.png

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    Post edited by TheMajjam on
  • EA_Blueberry
    3881 posts EA Community Manager
    TheMajjam wrote: »

    One of tonight's games. Great game and tied 3-3 with 2:58 left in the 3rd. Who takes a penalty on their team? THE BOT D-MAN. What penalty you ask? Guess. We scored 6 seconds later to seal the deal. I guess the bot does not understand the game's mechanics.

    yGyU06l.png

    T7rxdue.png

    Vy7FHLK.png

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    This is great feedback and glad to hear you won that game. It sounds like you'd prefer to have the AI more difficult.
  • TheMajjam wrote: »

    One of tonight's games. Great game and tied 3-3 with 2:58 left in the 3rd. Who takes a penalty on their team? THE BOT D-MAN. What penalty you ask? Guess. We scored 6 seconds later to seal the deal. I guess the bot does not understand the game's mechanics.

    yGyU06l.png

    T7rxdue.png

    Vy7FHLK.png

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    This is great feedback and glad to hear you won that game. It sounds like you'd prefer to have the AI more difficult.

    I know this isn't the thread for AI, but definitely not more difficult. Lol. Perhaps more smart in that the settings you choose for the AI will also affect the rate in which he takes penalties. More aggressive, he might take more. Less aggressive, he might take less. This was such a cat and mouse game where both teams played very conservative with about 10 minutes left. Everyone put their poke sticks away. Tripping a player near the boards with 3 minutes left was unnecessary and it was something out of their control that cost them.
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    edited April 2020
    NHLDev wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    TTZ_Dipsy wrote: »
    You're quite susceptible to passes going through you when using DSS and you have a greater chance of netting yourself a tripping penalty if the opposing player moves towards you - in most cases it's easier/better to just skate into them and hope for some incidental assist.

    Even small snipers can somehow brush off my 6'1 grinder hits, there is too much delay with the new hip check button mapping, DDS isn't much of a deterrant when the poke sensitivity is high (I like how poke checks are now but this can be abused in a video game).

    Players can still skate through sticks too so that'll need some tweaks.

    I understand it would involve constant effort/work but I would love to see a CTE area where we can actually test things on the fly (unranked of course). Not just your HUT streamers, I mean regular players can give their opinion on fully solid sticks or an experimental new limb positioning system for shot blocks etc.

    It's not that defense doesn't have the tools, it's that D has to be absolutely perfect to get the most out of the position while offense has almost all the control.

    DSS gives control over your stick placement and a bigger range relative to your positioning and facing than just your positioning alone.

    If you can just skate into the player and occupy the same space as them to disrupt them or separate them from the puck using body contact, then that is great but if they still have options and ice to play with, as a defender you need to try and limit them and often have to keep a better gap and that is where your body position and DSS to angle come in handy. From there you can throw in some pokes to disrupt as well but agressively going in for a body check or stick check when the puck carrier has options is never the right play unless you do catch them off guard. High risk, high reward though.

    So you use the tools to limit your puck carriers options and then when they commit, you close them off and use the proper tool to disrupt possession and cause a turn over.

    When in DSS you aren't able to intercept the puck but if you see the pass coming you can let go of DSS and your player can blend into a pickup. If you are already in a pass lane, you don't need to be in DSS but quite often you can be further goal side positioning wise and reach out further with DSS to put your stick in a pass lane which can allow you to manually make contact with the puck through stick positioning alone or you can click in R3 to poke towards the moving puck as well. Plenty of passes can be disrupted just with DSS alone but it is more to give you extra reach where it wouldn't be a clean interception anyways unless you skated closer to that reach location and played a regular pickup which you have manual control to do.

    As for penalties, DSS has a lot of forgiving pieces to it. You can swing your stick right through one leg outside to in and not get a penalty. If you go through that leg first, it won't allow you to make contact with the puck carriers stick or the puck but you won't trip them either.

    If you let go of DSS, you won't get a penalty if contact is made during the blend out of the action so if you actually read the player driving in to your stick and can't keep it out away from their skates, you can just let go and avoid the penalty as well. The videos above show some cases where it is used quite a bit with control and doesn't actually go into the forgiveness around penalties but I have been on streams where people are asking the streamer how they aren't taking penalties and it is due to that logic and the players skill.

    And to your other comment, we are certainly always looking to improve the mechanics of the game though and would love to have more ways to test the game going forward and getting pieces into more peoples hands. Technology is only opening more doors for that sort of thing.

    I agree that DSS is a lot more forgiving than it used to be due to feedback and your changes. I guess where I get confused as a defender though, is that forwards are allowed to deke through legs and get into puck-pickup animations through legs assuming the puck doesn’t hit the skate, right? If I’m wrong, disregard this entire post as I’m mainly talking through my experience playing the AI who do things with the puck the user can’t, so I could easily be wrong here.

    These scenarios where sticks ignore legs are usually defended by saying that we don’t have enough granular control of sticks in this game and full stick collisions would be an awful experience (I agree with everything here and trust your assessment. This is a video game after all) so that’s why this is possible. So from a game-balance perspective, I believe I should be able to swing my DSS through both legs as long I don’t click R3 to actually perform a poke check. Again, I don’t have enough granular control with my stick to pull it around skates then out to attack in this game, so why wouldn’t “passive” DSS be given the same benefit of the doubt as deking?

    My immediate thought is because the current system reduces the amount of breakaways being caught/disrupted by this as forwards would see their positioning advantage decreased, but I’d rather see that due to a combination of fatigue mattering more and acceleration being decreased rather than this system where it seems somewhat inconsistent as to who gets to defy physics/realism for the sake of flow.

    I think we could up puck carrier speed, decrease overall acceleration, increase fatigue effect, and make passive DSS even more forgiving and still see a lot of breakaways. I just can tell from watching these GWC HUT streams that defense is still a very passive position. Maybe even increase the speed hit DSS has on a player to further encourage good body positioning, as we all know that the 18 spam pokes on breakaways is what we’re trying to eliminate from the game. I just would like to see way more stick play on rushes and in the corners then what the online meta currently has. I think there’s ways to do that without seeing NHL 18 again, you know?

    I know you said to ignore it if those pieces weren't true but I do want to make sure you know how those pieces work.

    If an offensive players stick goes through a defenders stick or body, it won't allow them to receive a pass or complete a one timer. I was actually sent a video by a player the other day asking why the puck went through a stick blade on a one timer attempt and it was because the stick first went through the defenders stick to get there.

    There isn't really a passive DSS state as at all times the stick will make stick on stick and stick on puck contact that will disrupt possession. When you disrupt possession, the offensive player has a window where they can't regain control of the puck or attempt a new pickup (this simulates their stick being moved away/disrupted which is a bigger window for when their stick is disrupted by the body of the defense and a bit less when it is the stick as there is more or less to avoid. Then depending on the original puck carriers attributes, there is a multiplier on that window in regards to where they are between getting the shortest and longest black out period to attempt to regain possession but they can't be faster than the min even with the best attributes. We also increased these windows a few times this year towards defense. If you hit the actual puck, it usually goes further away and isn't as common for the puck carrier to have a play on it.

    That idea you have around passive DSS vs active poke is why the rules around tripping are different for both; we consider the poke to be a more forceful action and that is why you can trip a player easier when you are off with it where as DSS shows more control for when you may be trying to reach in and only go through the one leg (which would just be deflected away in real life) and can stop yourself or blend out of the action inside that window before you swipe through both legs. There is more we can do for sure but the balance is tuned knowing what both offense and defense are capable of currently. If we went with something more realistic where there were less trips, there would also be more cases where a player with the puck wouldn't be as easily effected by an outstretched stick with one hand either. The leverage you get at different angles would change to be more or less, etc. so both sides gain a little bit and balance with each other.

    Thanks for the response. My first part I was referring to simple RS deking, that’s allowed to go through legs (not skates) without losing possession right? I had no intention of including one-timers or pass receptions cause I haven’t seen a problem with those personally haha.

    Secondly, I think making that “passive” DSS state way less effective at disrupting puck possession and also way less susceptible to trips (making It essentially the defensive version of deking) would be a huge improvement to flow of the game and defensive player engagement.

    If you make hitting a tad more effective (closer to 19 beta) and turn pass interceptions way down, I’m envisioning a game where holding “passive” DSS out to mirror the passer’s stick and also holding out DSS to interfere with a potential one-timer shooter’s stick path would really increase the overall 6’s skill gap and help defenders be more actively involved in the play. I think this would be especially nice for 1v1 modes so you can more easily counter people who constantly spin. I can constantly mirror your stick if I don’t need to worry about a trip. It seems a little silly, but again with the lack of granular stick control we have because it’s a video game, I think it’d be more fun an encourage people to try and deflect shots up into the net and take away passing lanes by mirroring the offensive players stick rather than feathering around in the low slot hoping an auto animation kicks in. Plus I think it’d mitigate a lot of the “clumping” in-front of the net in 6s so we could start seeing some more 1-on-1 battles with more skill, dekes, and hopefully more open-ice as a result.

    I know you’d have to tweak the balancing with leverage and all that stuff, but I think it’d actually benefit a lot of parties. More casual-friendly while adding a skill gap is what I see would happen with that approach.

    No, on the Competitive Preset, there isn't any times a puck carrier can stick handle through an opponent without loss of possession. If a puck carrier is doing anything, including skating and regular right stick deking, their stick making contact with a stick or body will disrupt their possession.

    There also isn't anything now that is fundamentally different in hitting from the 19 Beta in terms of overall balance. It is actually only more effective in certain situations that we have tuned such as the puck carrier more susceptible to hits when pivoting and backskating.

    Personally I use the DSS a lot to angle players and disrupt possession and also deflect shots with it, knock down passes with it, etc.. I try not to weigh my personal experience into it too much though and that is why I posted those other videos to show how others are using it.

    My opinion on the clumping in front of the net in 6s is that it is more due to the human goalie tuning. Human goalies don't like getting beat if they are 'in position' so the impacts of screens and their save delay unless further out of position is stronger than an ai goalie. We did increase their screen effect more this year than last and they have slower reaction time the more they need to move their limb when reacting to a puck relative to last year so that has made shooting more viable but it hasn't punished screens as much as it could and many players in top 6's don't use top shooting builds and add traits that at times take away from their shooting as well to play more of a possession game.

    There are lots of things that can be considered with balance and it can be very subjective, especially when personal player skill comes into it. That is why we try to look at a large sample size of people playing the game. If we make mechanics overly simplified, it can really flatten out the skill curve at the top but if they are too complex it can obviously cause issues too and that is all part of the assessment and updates and improvements that we make.
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    TTZ_Dipsy wrote: »
    You're quite susceptible to passes going through you when using DSS and you have a greater chance of netting yourself a tripping penalty if the opposing player moves towards you - in most cases it's easier/better to just skate into them and hope for some incidental assist.

    Even small snipers can somehow brush off my 6'1 grinder hits, there is too much delay with the new hip check button mapping, DDS isn't much of a deterrant when the poke sensitivity is high (I like how poke checks are now but this can be abused in a video game).

    Players can still skate through sticks too so that'll need some tweaks.

    I understand it would involve constant effort/work but I would love to see a CTE area where we can actually test things on the fly (unranked of course). Not just your HUT streamers, I mean regular players can give their opinion on fully solid sticks or an experimental new limb positioning system for shot blocks etc.

    It's not that defense doesn't have the tools, it's that D has to be absolutely perfect to get the most out of the position while offense has almost all the control.

    DSS gives control over your stick placement and a bigger range relative to your positioning and facing than just your positioning alone.

    If you can just skate into the player and occupy the same space as them to disrupt them or separate them from the puck using body contact, then that is great but if they still have options and ice to play with, as a defender you need to try and limit them and often have to keep a better gap and that is where your body position and DSS to angle come in handy. From there you can throw in some pokes to disrupt as well but agressively going in for a body check or stick check when the puck carrier has options is never the right play unless you do catch them off guard. High risk, high reward though.

    So you use the tools to limit your puck carriers options and then when they commit, you close them off and use the proper tool to disrupt possession and cause a turn over.

    When in DSS you aren't able to intercept the puck but if you see the pass coming you can let go of DSS and your player can blend into a pickup. If you are already in a pass lane, you don't need to be in DSS but quite often you can be further goal side positioning wise and reach out further with DSS to put your stick in a pass lane which can allow you to manually make contact with the puck through stick positioning alone or you can click in R3 to poke towards the moving puck as well. Plenty of passes can be disrupted just with DSS alone but it is more to give you extra reach where it wouldn't be a clean interception anyways unless you skated closer to that reach location and played a regular pickup which you have manual control to do.

    As for penalties, DSS has a lot of forgiving pieces to it. You can swing your stick right through one leg outside to in and not get a penalty. If you go through that leg first, it won't allow you to make contact with the puck carriers stick or the puck but you won't trip them either.

    If you let go of DSS, you won't get a penalty if contact is made during the blend out of the action so if you actually read the player driving in to your stick and can't keep it out away from their skates, you can just let go and avoid the penalty as well. The videos above show some cases where it is used quite a bit with control and doesn't actually go into the forgiveness around penalties but I have been on streams where people are asking the streamer how they aren't taking penalties and it is due to that logic and the players skill.

    And to your other comment, we are certainly always looking to improve the mechanics of the game though and would love to have more ways to test the game going forward and getting pieces into more peoples hands. Technology is only opening more doors for that sort of thing.

    I agree that DSS is a lot more forgiving than it used to be due to feedback and your changes. I guess where I get confused as a defender though, is that forwards are allowed to deke through legs and get into puck-pickup animations through legs assuming the puck doesn’t hit the skate, right? If I’m wrong, disregard this entire post as I’m mainly talking through my experience playing the AI who do things with the puck the user can’t, so I could easily be wrong here.

    These scenarios where sticks ignore legs are usually defended by saying that we don’t have enough granular control of sticks in this game and full stick collisions would be an awful experience (I agree with everything here and trust your assessment. This is a video game after all) so that’s why this is possible. So from a game-balance perspective, I believe I should be able to swing my DSS through both legs as long I don’t click R3 to actually perform a poke check. Again, I don’t have enough granular control with my stick to pull it around skates then out to attack in this game, so why wouldn’t “passive” DSS be given the same benefit of the doubt as deking?

    My immediate thought is because the current system reduces the amount of breakaways being caught/disrupted by this as forwards would see their positioning advantage decreased, but I’d rather see that due to a combination of fatigue mattering more and acceleration being decreased rather than this system where it seems somewhat inconsistent as to who gets to defy physics/realism for the sake of flow.

    I think we could up puck carrier speed, decrease overall acceleration, increase fatigue effect, and make passive DSS even more forgiving and still see a lot of breakaways. I just can tell from watching these GWC HUT streams that defense is still a very passive position. Maybe even increase the speed hit DSS has on a player to further encourage good body positioning, as we all know that the 18 spam pokes on breakaways is what we’re trying to eliminate from the game. I just would like to see way more stick play on rushes and in the corners then what the online meta currently has. I think there’s ways to do that without seeing NHL 18 again, you know?

    I know you said to ignore it if those pieces weren't true but I do want to make sure you know how those pieces work.

    If an offensive players stick goes through a defenders stick or body, it won't allow them to receive a pass or complete a one timer. I was actually sent a video by a player the other day asking why the puck went through a stick blade on a one timer attempt and it was because the stick first went through the defenders stick to get there.

    There isn't really a passive DSS state as at all times the stick will make stick on stick and stick on puck contact that will disrupt possession. When you disrupt possession, the offensive player has a window where they can't regain control of the puck or attempt a new pickup (this simulates their stick being moved away/disrupted which is a bigger window for when their stick is disrupted by the body of the defense and a bit less when it is the stick as there is more or less to avoid. Then depending on the original puck carriers attributes, there is a multiplier on that window in regards to where they are between getting the shortest and longest black out period to attempt to regain possession but they can't be faster than the min even with the best attributes. We also increased these windows a few times this year towards defense. If you hit the actual puck, it usually goes further away and isn't as common for the puck carrier to have a play on it.

    That idea you have around passive DSS vs active poke is why the rules around tripping are different for both; we consider the poke to be a more forceful action and that is why you can trip a player easier when you are off with it where as DSS shows more control for when you may be trying to reach in and only go through the one leg (which would just be deflected away in real life) and can stop yourself or blend out of the action inside that window before you swipe through both legs. There is more we can do for sure but the balance is tuned knowing what both offense and defense are capable of currently. If we went with something more realistic where there were less trips, there would also be more cases where a player with the puck wouldn't be as easily effected by an outstretched stick with one hand either. The leverage you get at different angles would change to be more or less, etc. so both sides gain a little bit and balance with each other.

    Thanks for the response. My first part I was referring to simple RS deking, that’s allowed to go through legs (not skates) without losing possession right? I had no intention of including one-timers or pass receptions cause I haven’t seen a problem with those personally haha.

    Secondly, I think making that “passive” DSS state way less effective at disrupting puck possession and also way less susceptible to trips (making It essentially the defensive version of deking) would be a huge improvement to flow of the game and defensive player engagement.

    If you make hitting a tad more effective (closer to 19 beta) and turn pass interceptions way down, I’m envisioning a game where holding “passive” DSS out to mirror the passer’s stick and also holding out DSS to interfere with a potential one-timer shooter’s stick path would really increase the overall 6’s skill gap and help defenders be more actively involved in the play. I think this would be especially nice for 1v1 modes so you can more easily counter people who constantly spin. I can constantly mirror your stick if I don’t need to worry about a trip. It seems a little silly, but again with the lack of granular stick control we have because it’s a video game, I think it’d be more fun an encourage people to try and deflect shots up into the net and take away passing lanes by mirroring the offensive players stick rather than feathering around in the low slot hoping an auto animation kicks in. Plus I think it’d mitigate a lot of the “clumping” in-front of the net in 6s so we could start seeing some more 1-on-1 battles with more skill, dekes, and hopefully more open-ice as a result.

    I know you’d have to tweak the balancing with leverage and all that stuff, but I think it’d actually benefit a lot of parties. More casual-friendly while adding a skill gap is what I see would happen with that approach.

    No, on the Competitive Preset, there isn't any times a puck carrier can stick handle through an opponent without loss of possession. If a puck carrier is doing anything, including skating and regular right stick deking, their stick making contact with a stick or body will disrupt their possession.

    There also isn't anything now that is fundamentally different in hitting from the 19 Beta in terms of overall balance. It is actually only more effective in certain situations that we have tuned such as the puck carrier more susceptible to hits when pivoting and backskating.

    Personally I use the DSS a lot to angle players and disrupt possession and also deflect shots with it, knock down passes with it, etc.. I try not to weigh my personal experience into it too much though and that is why I posted those other videos to show how others are using it.

    My opinion on the clumping in front of the net in 6s is that it is more due to the human goalie tuning. Human goalies don't like getting beat if they are 'in position' so the impacts of screens and their save delay unless further out of position is stronger than an ai goalie. We did increase their screen effect more this year than last and they have slower reaction time the more they need to move their limb when reacting to a puck relative to last year so that has made shooting more viable but it hasn't punished screens as much as it could and many players in top 6's don't use top shooting builds and add traits that at times take away from their shooting as well to play more of a possession game.

    There are lots of things that can be considered with balance and it can be very subjective, especially when personal player skill comes into it. That is why we try to look at a large sample size of people playing the game. If we make mechanics overly simplified, it can really flatten out the skill curve at the top but if they are too complex it can obviously cause issues too and that is all part of the assessment and updates and improvements that we make.

    Ahh very interesting to hear! I must just be not recognizing the slight loss of possession when RS’ing then, thanks for the input!

    Yes, meta is so subjective so that’s why I am always loving to talk about it. I find DSS as such an interesting tool to study as far as game balance goes, because it really is a tool that seems so effective yet so unforgiving at times. Offline, when LT spins and RS deking aren’t very prevalent, I find DSS is a perfect tool. I can attack the Computers and really take away time and space that looks like real hockey. Put that into an online setting, and all of a sudden I find it to be too risky of a play where I’m really resorting to use it at times where I’m almost certain there’s no way to take a penalty. I just feel like I can’t use that stick as much as a defender should be able to irl. My personal life was the main reason I stopped playing competitive 6s in this game, but another small factor for me not even trying to make it work was because defense just wasn’t that fun anymore. I just felt bored wether it was a club game or the ESHL playoffs. It just wasn’t an “active” enough position to where it was fun to play for hours and hours.

    One of the main things I’ve discussed on various forums is how to make that tool more fun to use and simply just more usable in the online environment where skaters don’t act natural, they constantly spin, and they are notorious for deking specifically to draw a penalty rather than deking to beat a man. I absolutely hate seeing posts that simply refer to it as the “tripping” button because as long as you’re using DSS from non-risky situations, you shouldn’t be taking penalties at an alarming rate like some suggest. That has to be exhausting reading as someone who knows how the tool works, and I believe it’s pretty exhausting to read for the many of here that are good enough (or smart enough) not poke from behind constantly then yell at the game lol.

    That being said, there’s no denying the amount of those posts that I see and it seems like it’s really frustrating to a few groups of people. New people, people that are awful at the game and can’t learn (which is the least of my concern), old people looking to have fun offline (lol my dad plays and despises the daintiness of skaters in his offline season mode), and people that are looking for a more “sim” experience where attacking the stick constantly should be expected (mostly your offline guys who aren’t hardcore skilled, but are hardcore into sliders, stats, etc). Long-story short here, I just think there’s still room to improve somewhere, my solution is obviously not the 100% answer, but I think DSS still needs to be less risky in certain scenarios. The LT pivots drawing trips isn’t fun and takes almost zero skill to pull off. It’s actually a safety net for forwards who you’ve angled into a precarious position to have a chance at escaping with a PowerPlay, when in reality they should’ve been lucky to have a 50/50 puck. I also believe “passive” DSS should be even more forgiving if a skater is gliding. It only make sense if their balance is heightened by gliding while holding RS out that they should also severely reduce their risk of tripping over a defender who is holding their stick out with one hand.

    Alright, enough the DSS for now. I want to address your opinion on goalies too because I think you’re right. Human goalies hate getting beat from first shots. I think what adds to this though is their inability to move efficiently in the crease. As a irl goalie, I can’t play the position in this game. It’s way too stationary for me. I’d love to see their mobility drastically increased so that it actually forces them to play angles with the appropriate amount of depth to not get beat. Also, with pass speeds and acceleration being so high, no human goalie can possibly move laterally well enough in this game to keep up, so it kind of pigeon-holes the meta into drastically overpowering their first-shot chances at a save.

    This is also why all great teams collapse so hard. You always have to play the pass because goalies simply can’t keep up. From a irl goalie’s perspective, I can tell you that there’s certain times I would prefer to take the one-timer cause I know the pass has to go a long way, maybe the shooter is on their strong-side so the shot won’t be as hard, their speed is too fast to catch and cutback, and their depth isn’t allowing them a ton of angle to shoot so I know simply getting something in-front should make the save. I think the meta right now doesn’t ever put goalies in this mindset, because again their first-shot save percentage is so high that it’s never really worth giving up the pass even in the scenario I described.

    Well that’s it for me know. Whew that was probably word-vomit but this pieces are all more connected than I think people (not you) realize so it’s why I like discussing them. Everything affects everything. I know it’s a delicate balance. I appreciate the discussions because your insight on meta changes really does fascinate me. I’m with TTZ I’m getting some practice lobbies or test servers where you can play in games with minimally or drastically different sliders designed to force a different meta. The more chances we get to play around with those sliders, the better imo. Hopefully the custom slider lobbies come sooner rather than later!
  • LiveFromThe2150
    97 posts Member
    edited April 2020
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    0r7v2mwamnt6.png

    Hey everyone,

    We're changing things up this week with a discussion about defense. What kind of builds do you like to use? Are you a stay at home defender or do you get more involved in the offense? Got some tips for laying those big hits? Have you mastered poke checks, stick lifts and DSS? Let's hear your thoughts on all things defense.

    And while we're at it, if there's anything specific on defense you'd love to see discussed here and in future posts we'd love to hear your recommendations.

    I am a stay at home defense men. I always thought that there was nothing wrong with poke checking(just have to use it at the correct time). I rarely jump up and leave my position, only if I know it's a sure bet that I will intercept a pass and a pretty good chance of cleaning someones clock.

    On two on ones I try to anticipate the best I can. Here I chosen right.

    https://gameclipscontent-d2002.xboxlive.com/xuid-2535420357248284-private/ae2d212c-8e31-4cbb-82e6-9aa310276f57.MP4?sv=2015-12-11&sr=b&si=DefaultAccess&sig=G+SL8TRnwr/biCwU2xQYk9BaOjmZi6hO9QHKJnamx8A=&__gda__=1586292613_bcb05dffffa2c17128c9600e952d7cff

    And on this one I show how important net battles are.

    https://gameclipscontent-d2006.xboxlive.com/xuid-2535420357248284-private/5960631e-4e70-4141-af3d-e91234b4e75a.MP4?sv=2015-12-11&sr=b&si=DefaultAccess&sig=21rX9lWTCzoxGpt+pf7wu1JqTpqz56Es2hzWwuqznQY=&__gda__=1586292613_694bb70e8ee7b3872a08292f1fbc17e9
    Post edited by LiveFromThe2150 on
  • Sorry don't know how to get the videos to show.
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