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The penalty baiting needs to stop..

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GramerProfesur
531 posts Member
edited May 5
Seriously getting tired of this.

I get the increased penalties in stick infractions is meant to punish players who spam poke check or stick lift but what we have right now basically renders defense useless. Players constantly LT'ing, spinning in circles, turning their backs to the net, etc. Will do this until you take a penalty or someone ends up getting open for pass/shot. I generally have just waited someone out but people are adapting to this and just will stop skating and make you attack then. How can anyone say this is ideal is beyond me and needs to be fixed or this game will continue to be broken online. Completely broken and developers have to know about this and don't have a solution. I'll take the spamming back over this garbage. If incidental bumps don't work, stick lifts and poke checks don't work if not at a complete horizontal angle (cutting across opponents body to poke the puck) then what the hell are we doing here guys? Defense needs to be addressed in NHL 21 or I'm seriously done

Replies

  • mikeq67
    114 posts Member
    Unfortunately, Im pretty sure they think this L2 figure skating nonsense, and other non hockey play is cool and gives them the skill gap they want. Instead of a hockey game having a skill gap based on being good at things that look like hockey. Its pretty telling when you see the NHL players playing and complaining about how ridiculous most of the game is.
  • puckman5
    2 posts New member
    [quote="mikeq67;c-2130456"]Unfortunately, Im pretty sure they think this L2 figure skating nonsense, and other non hockey play is cool and gives them the skill gap they want. Instead of a hockey game having a skill gap based on being good at things that look like hockey. Its pretty telling when you see the NHL players playing and complaining about how ridiculous most of the game is. [/quote]

    This is it. Rather than having the skill in this game focused on hockey the real skill is abusing the mechanics.

    They prioritize the wrong stuff. Its embarrassing.
  • mikeq67 wrote: »
    Unfortunately, Im pretty sure they think this L2 figure skating nonsense, and other non hockey play is cool and gives them the skill gap they want. Instead of a hockey game having a skill gap based on being good at things that look like hockey. Its pretty telling when you see the NHL players playing and complaining about how ridiculous most of the game is.

    Yeah I think it’s pretty funny when they’ve been playing the rest of the regular season in NHL 20 (each teams market) and the commentators are talking about how unrealistic the game is. I tuned in a couple times to NBC Washington and the crew is like “well.. that would’ve never happened in real life” a couple time during the sims. The Capitals went undefeated in the season sim. They weren’t whining it’s just blatantly obvious this game is unrealistic
  • HoodHoppers
    1373 posts Member
    Yep. We've been saying it for a while, nerf the speed completely on the L2 like the videos when they claimed they did were doing. If you slow it down significantly and offer a chance to lose the puck if you're doing it full tilt (like would happen with 90% of the players in real life), then people would stop using it because it'd lose its effectiveness. Also the amount of times a pokecheck for mildly touching somebody's skate is still way too harsh. I'm pretty passive with the poke now (because the game forces you to be) and I still take the penalty. It's the only penalty I take haha.

    Meanwhile we can spam stick lift like no tomorrow. Go figure.
  • Steven5470
    349 posts Member
    Yep. We've been saying it for a while, nerf the speed completely on the L2 like the videos when they claimed they did were doing. If you slow it down significantly and offer a chance to lose the puck if you're doing it full tilt (like would happen with 90% of the players in real life), then people would stop using it because it'd lose its effectiveness. Also the amount of times a pokecheck for mildly touching somebody's skate is still way too harsh. I'm pretty passive with the poke now (because the game forces you to be) and I still take the penalty. It's the only penalty I take haha.

    Meanwhile we can spam stick lift like no tomorrow. Go figure.

    What? Poke check is too harsh? You mean like this? Where my player's stick is about 3 inches away from the players skate, yet the opposing player dives like he was shot?




    I think the issue is that the animations are kicking in a second or two too early. The stick didn't even touch the guy and he went down. The same thing happens when the AI can tie you up against the boards from behind. Even though the AI is behind you, the animation to tie up seems to happen before the player is in proper position, and bam. Your guys is tied up against the boards from a player who was a stride+ behind him.
  • Steven5470 wrote: »
    Yep. We've been saying it for a while, nerf the speed completely on the L2 like the videos when they claimed they did were doing. If you slow it down significantly and offer a chance to lose the puck if you're doing it full tilt (like would happen with 90% of the players in real life), then people would stop using it because it'd lose its effectiveness. Also the amount of times a pokecheck for mildly touching somebody's skate is still way too harsh. I'm pretty passive with the poke now (because the game forces you to be) and I still take the penalty. It's the only penalty I take haha.

    Meanwhile we can spam stick lift like no tomorrow. Go figure.

    What? Poke check is too harsh? You mean like this? Where my player's stick is about 3 inches away from the players skate, yet the opposing player dives like he was shot?




    I think the issue is that the animations are kicking in a second or two too early. The stick didn't even touch the guy and he went down. The same thing happens when the AI can tie you up against the boards from behind. Even though the AI is behind you, the animation to tie up seems to happen before the player is in proper position, and bam. Your guys is tied up against the boards from a player who was a stride+ behind him.

    Yeah the AI gets tripped on phantom sticks a lot. It’s like watching the penguins play irl! (Sorry Pens fans, simple joke. Don’t roast me too much lol).

    On a serious note, yes poke checking is still too touchy. Watch any NHL game and see the crazy amount of stick work and even trips that do happen that go uncalled. If a skater purposely puts himself in a bad spot (HELLOOO L2 ANYONE??) the refs are pretty good at not calling those. And no, I don’t care how some “elite” player doesn’t take more than a penalty or two a game (neither do I) as that doesn’t mean stick checking is in a good place. It really shows how little people use it which is contrary to the actual sport.

    Sprinting right at someone then doing a 180 rotation on a dime shouldn’t draw a trip. Gliding while still or barely moving should not draw a trip as you have more balance according to the game when doing this. Why would a weak DSS swipe trip someone who is in their most balanced state?

    Most average gamers can “adjust” and simply not use the DSS feature and stand still and play zone defense, but it’s just awfully boring and unrewarding. On-puck defense should be encouraged and having such a high risk/reward stick defense system for defenders isn’t going to promote that.
  • HoodHoppers
    1373 posts Member
    Steven5470 wrote: »
    Yep. We've been saying it for a while, nerf the speed completely on the L2 like the videos when they claimed they did were doing. If you slow it down significantly and offer a chance to lose the puck if you're doing it full tilt (like would happen with 90% of the players in real life), then people would stop using it because it'd lose its effectiveness. Also the amount of times a pokecheck for mildly touching somebody's skate is still way too harsh. I'm pretty passive with the poke now (because the game forces you to be) and I still take the penalty. It's the only penalty I take haha.

    Meanwhile we can spam stick lift like no tomorrow. Go figure.

    What? Poke check is too harsh? You mean like this? Where my player's stick is about 3 inches away from the players skate, yet the opposing player dives like he was shot?




    I think the issue is that the animations are kicking in a second or two too early. The stick didn't even touch the guy and he went down. The same thing happens when the AI can tie you up against the boards from behind. Even though the AI is behind you, the animation to tie up seems to happen before the player is in proper position, and bam. Your guys is tied up against the boards from a player who was a stride+ behind him.

    Yeah the AI gets tripped on phantom sticks a lot. It’s like watching the penguins play irl! (Sorry Pens fans, simple joke. Don’t roast me too much lol).

    On a serious note, yes poke checking is still too touchy. Watch any NHL game and see the crazy amount of stick work and even trips that do happen that go uncalled. If a skater purposely puts himself in a bad spot (HELLOOO L2 ANYONE??) the refs are pretty good at not calling those. And no, I don’t care how some “elite” player doesn’t take more than a penalty or two a game (neither do I) as that doesn’t mean stick checking is in a good place. It really shows how little people use it which is contrary to the actual sport.

    Sprinting right at someone then doing a 180 rotation on a dime shouldn’t draw a trip. Gliding while still or barely moving should not draw a trip as you have more balance according to the game when doing this. Why would a weak DSS swipe trip someone who is in their most balanced state?

    Most average gamers can “adjust” and simply not use the DSS feature and stand still and play zone defense, but it’s just awfully boring and unrewarding. On-puck defense should be encouraged and having such a high risk/reward stick defense system for defenders isn’t going to promote that.

    I proposed this as an idea a while ago, that there's a certain amount of time after the player presses L2 that tripping animations just aren't called.

    Needless to say, it didn't go anywhere.
  • Yep. We've been saying it for a while, nerf the speed completely on the L2 like the videos when they claimed they did were doing. If you slow it down significantly and offer a chance to lose the puck if you're doing it full tilt (like would happen with 90% of the players in real life), then people would stop using it because it'd lose its effectiveness. Also the amount of times a pokecheck for mildly touching somebody's skate is still way too harsh. I'm pretty passive with the poke now (because the game forces you to be) and I still take the penalty. It's the only penalty I take haha.

    Meanwhile we can spam stick lift like no tomorrow. Go figure.

    I think the problem with nerfing the speed of LT is that it’s needed when you’re playing defense and pivoting backward. I use it quite frequently on defense but don’t abuse when going up ice.

    The solution is actually simple.. just cause players to bottom out again when it’s abused + lower puck control and balance when you use LT. This way you can just bump the opponent off the puck and onto the ice, or if you make stick on puck contact that puck should come way way loose. Right now you’ll just roll off the hit and if you get a stick on it the puck moves like 2 inches and they get it right back
  • For those of you who remember 17, when you could AI launch it was one of the ways to combat the LT
  • Sgt_Kelso
    1262 posts Member
    edited May 6
    It's just so disappointing, that an opponent can skate through your sticks, since they're are not physical objects, until you actually use DSS or poke. And THEN it's penalty city. You need to have sticks as physical objects ALL the time....

    And it should never be a penalty if the opponent just skates into your extended DSS stick, unless there's a clear sweeping/hooking movement. I am not sure how it's supposed to work ATM, but it's very, very inconsistent.
  • I think the poke shouldn’t trip so easy. Especially when we’re right besides the person and my arm gently brushes his thigh and buddy just drops.

    If the momentum could take into consideration the arm movement. I really think a poorly timed poke check should just get brushed off
  • Hotjoint
    67 posts Member
    edited May 6
    L2 abuse is the worst feature in this game hands down. It's simple, if you have your back turned while skating in then you should have 0 protection and be able to get knock down easily. that's how it should be like REAL LIFE!
    Post edited by Hotjoint on
  • Davanial
    187 posts Member
    That's not how it is in Real Life though...
  • Davanial wrote: »
    That's not how it is in Real Life though...

    Nobody in real life can do a full 180 pivot mid stride and maintain a stable balance point to brace for a hit. That’s why forwards at the highest level don’t do it. It’s a dangerous, vulnerable position to put yourself in, and you also can’t make 100 mph backhanded passes irl either, so it’s kind of two-gold.

    There are some scenarios when entering a buck battle in the boards where you see guys lead back-first in-order to establish an advantageous body position once contact is made, but that’s a very deliberate act that doesn’t involve them making a full 180 pivot nor does it involve trying to handle a puck either. These are not comparable scenarios to the ones we currently see on the rush in this game.

    The way to fix this is to add spread eagle animations when an LT movement is requested. This would slow momentum but be a great way to protect the puck and add-in realistic animations that make what people are doing with LT seem a little more realistic.

    Due the huge drop-off in speed, this should not be able to abused on the rush as a method of beating a defender. This should be used as a simple puck protection mechanic that boxes out the defender from direct access to the puck. There’s should be a loss of balance here making you more susceptible to being hit, but it should also make pokes or stick lifts very hard to use.

    I think the skating and pivoting is a great spot, but there’s some definite balance issues that need to be ironed out, and I also thinking building on this skating engine and getting more realistic LT animations in the game would ease a lot of these complaints.
  • Davanial
    187 posts Member
    edited May 7
    Kronwall might beg to differ. Or Subban.

    The way players use LT in this game can be goofy, but it isn't completely out of the realm of possibility. I can transition at speed, maintain puck possession, and bounce off glancing contact. I can spin away from checks, turn my back to create space and avoid pressure, and make a play with the puck. Bumps and shoves and even crosschecks don't send me sprawling on my face. I've spun around defenders who tried to step up at the blue line. I've skated backward and laterally in the offensive zone to open lanes and create different attack angles. I am not even close to a pro level hockey player.

    Could I do all of that if Byfuglien was coming at me full tilt and I smelled like a cheeseburger? No sir.

    I also don't trip when a guy swings his stick one handed into my shin pad or pokes my heel. I don't lose control of the puck and skate off into a corner when the shaft of my stick gets tapped from behind. I don't go for a line change five seconds after a face off right as my D feeds me an outlet pass. I don't stagger like a pro wrestler when a guy shoves me one handed as I skate in the same direction, or drop like I've been shot and slide for two zones after a trip. I definitely cannot pass a puck at max power with both of my arms extended behind my back, though I can execute a short little hook pass in tight spaces. And I'm almost positive I've never run into a goaltender and flipped **** over tea kettle on top of the net.

    I'm just saying, over reactions to poorly implemented game mechanics being utilized by players who took the time to learn and practice playing the game as it is are fine, if silly. Dramatically disparaging the realism of a video game, particularly when one has a limited understanding of the realistic possibilities simulated by said game, is something else entirely. Real life!

    You'll have to excuse me, I have a plane to catch. I'm going to be kicked out of a flying bus over an island full of angry teenagers wearing banana costumes carrying automatic assault weapons and magical sippy cups.
    [Socair - edited swear filter]
    Post edited by Socair on
  • untouchable_BF1
    726 posts Member
    edited May 7
    Davanial wrote: »
    Kronwall might beg to differ. Or Subban.

    The way players use LT in this game can be goofy, but it isn't completely out of the realm of possibility. I can transition at speed, maintain puck possession, and bounce off glancing contact. I can spin away from checks, turn my back to create space and avoid pressure, and make a play with the puck. Bumps and shoves and even crosschecks don't send me sprawling on my face. I've spun around defenders who tried to step up at the blue line. I've skated backward and laterally in the offensive zone to open lanes and create different attack angles. I am not even close to a pro level hockey player.

    Could I do all of that if Byfuglien was coming at me full tilt and I smelled like a cheeseburger? No sir.

    I also don't trip when a guy swings his stick one handed into my shin pad or pokes my heel. I don't lose control of the puck and skate off into a corner when the shaft of my stick gets tapped from behind. I don't go for a line change five seconds after a face off right as my D feeds me an outlet pass. I don't stagger like a pro wrestler when a guy shoves me one handed as I skate in the same direction, or drop like I've been shot and slide for two zones after a trip. I definitely cannot pass a puck at max power with both of my arms extended behind my back, though I can execute a short little hook pass in tight spaces. And I'm almost positive I've never run into a goaltender and flipped **** over tea kettle on top of the net.

    I'm just saying, over reactions to poorly implemented game mechanics being utilized by players who took the time to learn and practice playing the game as it is are fine, if silly. Dramatically disparaging the realism of a video game, particularly when one has a limited understanding of the realistic possibilities simulated by said game, is something else entirely. Real life!

    You'll have to excuse me, I have a plane to catch. I'm going to be kicked out of a flying bus over an island full of angry teenagers wearing banana costumes carrying automatic assault weapons and magical sippy cups.
    [Socair - edited quote]
    Kronwall and Subban’s ability to launch their hip/backside at people while building up their speed with lateral crossovers have no relevance to a puck carrier sprinting straight, quick pivoting, and surviving a full body check.

    Your beer league experience of skating “full speed” and then pivoting and surviving a “glancing blow” also has no relevance to a puck carrier actually skating full speed in a full-check league, pivoting on a dime, and surviving a real check (read: no glancing men’s league blow).

    I don’t understand why you’re pointing out that all of these other animations and scenarios are “unrealistic” yet it’s “unrealistic” to assume an NHL defender would push over an NHL forward if they were to sprint into the zone and quick do a 180 right before contact? You’re all over the board here lol.

    I will agree the the LT use in this game makes sense a lot of the time, but the animations make it look wonky. There’s no spread eagle animations in the game which is what would actually be used in the scenarios we see people use LT to protect the puck.
    Post edited by Socair on
  • Davanial
    187 posts Member
    edited May 7
    You're assuming the defender makes good contact on the player LTing to spin off/around them. I've had solid contact defending those plays that result in realistic checks, knock downs, turnovers etc. And I've also encountered the bubble, and partial bumps etc. I don't view my every failed attempt to defend LT physically as 'mechanic abuse' by the other player.

    All of the other crap was merely poking fun at some of the silly ways this game simulates hockey, and LT would be included in there. My point is, it's just a game. I guess I don't expect the virtual experience to be as realistically accurate as some people do. Nor do I fail to see the possible applications of many of the game mechanics that those people feel are so unrealistic. You can easily find examples of NHL plays where the attacker ssentially LTs to protect the puck or create space. It is simply not as far fetched as people make it out to be.

    But yes, I agree that a poorly timed spin into a defender who reacts with a solid hit is going to drop the guy. This also does happen in the video game.

    I don't really disagree with much of what you (in particular) have said, but I find the dramatic hyperbole of others amusing. I can flap my arms about the weak tripping calls, as example, or I can try to get better at playing the game as it is, while offering feedback that I hope helps the developers et all to improve the game.

    Can you describe what you mean by spread eagle..? I've played a bit higher than beer league, but anything I would describe as spread eagle wouldn't be a good thing, especially in the groin area. Just not certain I get what you mean. Like, a wider base..?

    Post edited by Davanial on
  • Davanial wrote: »
    You're assuming the defender makes good contact on the player LTing to spin off/around them. I've had solid contact defending those plays that result in realistic checks, knock downs, turnovers etc. And I've also encountered the bubble, and partial bumps etc. I don't view my every failed attempt to defend LT physically as 'mechanic abuse' by the other player.

    All of the other crap was merely poking fun at some of the silly ways this game simulates hockey, and LT would be included in there. My point is, it's just a game. I guess I don't expect the virtual experience to be as realistically accurate as some people do. Nor do I fail to see the possible applications of many of the game mechanics that those people feel are so unrealistic. You can easily find examples of NHL plays where the attacker ssentially LTs to protect the puck or create space. It is simply not as far fetched as people make it out to be.

    But yes, I agree that a poorly timed spin into a defender who reacts with a solid hit is going to drop the guy. This also does happen in the video game.

    I don't really disagree with much of what you (in particular) have said, but I find the dramatic hyperbole of others amusing. I can flap my arms about the weak tripping calls, as example, or I can try to get better at playing the game as it is, while offering feedback that I hope helps the developers et all to improve the game.

    Can you describe what you mean by spread eagle..? I've played a bit higher than beer league, but anything I would describe as spread eagle wouldn't be a good thing, especially in the groin area. Just not certain I get what you mean. Like, a wider base..?


    Yeah I get that. I think the “bubble” should always be considered a “mechanical error” though, as it is literally a bubble-like phenomenon that’s hindering the user’s ability to make a realistic hockey play. With Poke checks, of course you can always learn you use it more wisely to better yourself at the game. I think it’s still valuable feedback to say “hey, I think the balance is off” though, but I know you’re making fun of the “penalty button” people lol. I agree with you there, those posts are tiring at best. Lastly, I only mentioned “beer league” as I assume most people here offering feedback on virtual hockey are past their hockey primes (I know I am).

    As far as the spread eagle goes, it’s a simple skating technique where your hips open up and you do a little semi-circle. You see this used to protect the puck, transition in the corners, open up for shots all the time in the NHL. I envision the mechanic working similar to FIFA’s “LT” shielding mechanic. It’s simply a box out but on skates essentially.
  • [quote="Davanial;c-2130851"]Can you describe what you mean by spread eagle..? I've played a bit higher than beer league, but anything I would describe as spread eagle wouldn't be a good thing, especially in the groin area. Just not certain I get what you mean. Like, a wider base..?[/quote]

    I think he is referring to what some call Mohawk turns. Kinda heels together, toes pointed out. Crosby and Skinner are very good at it. Also Antonio Stranges, a prospect for the draft this year does it a lot. I apparently can’t post links but if you pull up his highlights on YouTube he does it a lot.
  • Davanial
    187 posts Member
    Ok yea Mohawks, or Crosbies as the 'kids' say. Bleh I can only perform those on my balance foot. Does LT not animate those on a forward transition? Can't say that I've really looked.

    I'm totally a beer leaguer man, but I don't find that to be a derogatory term anyway. There's a wide skill range from NHL down to Timbits, and beer league covers a lot of it. My claim to fame was being invited to try out for the Dub after playing off season ball hockey with a bunch of actual hockey players. Sadly, I come from peasant stock, and couldn't afford to play that level of hockey.

    That, and I'd pawned my skates for a bag of smelly entertainment one evening...
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