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Let's talk Manual Goalie control!

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  • HoodHoppers
    1486 posts Member
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    So a bigger goalie wouldn't necessarily be disadvantaged compared to a smaller goalie, but he'd definitely need to work at always keeping his body center to the shot to be the most effective. While a smaller build goalie could get away with being a little off center

    Opposite.
    A small goalie blocks less of the net so he would have to be focused on keeping center more.
    He'd also have to come out further and take away more angle because of it, but in turn he'd be faster so he can move back or side to side quicker if needed.

    He was saying that though, because if you're not centered and a good shot comes your smaller limbs might not be able to reach out in time. They'll be quicker to reach out and react, but if it's placed good he won't reach it in time. As opposed to the big guy who will react slower to get the limbs up but will reach in time. Basically in tight, big goalies will get sniped more on accurate shots but from far away they'll be more effective if the shot is placed well. Far away, small goalies will react quickly but if they're off centered they won't reach it and in tight they might snag the ones inside the post but they have to be centered well to do so.

    It's kind of a messy way of saying it but you guys are arguing the same point pretty much.
  • Follisimo
    1047 posts Member
    edited May 2020
    Follisimo wrote: »
    I feel like if you're shorter you should be able to shift around and react faster, while being taller can help you cover more area but makes you slower post to post. It makes sense what you're saying though on getting more variety so you don't see the same goalie builds in clubs.

    Goalies feel too much the same for the most part. It would be great if Stand-Up, Hybrid, Butterfly all had special traits that boosted things they should be great at without a downside attached to them.

    Stand-up should be bigger thus taking up more space, but overall much slower. (6'4-6'5 height)

    Hybrid - Average all around. Not weak but not excelling (6'2-6'3 height)

    Butterfly should be super fast with limbs. They should suffer from deflections squeaking by a bit more if not challenging the shot properly. Also more prone to screen goals and roof shots. (6' - 6'1 height)


    Remove weight from the equation completely and just assign it to the height.

    No way. You should pick any build and be able to put whatever height/weight you want.
    If you choose to be 6'6", your max speed should top out lower than someone who is shorter.

    But you see that would cause problems with changes people want. People would just find ways to work around a weakness. I mean sure allow people to pick any weight with a size but just nerf it so badly that it isn't a viable choice. The game in EASHL is RPG based so you have to think of balance and keeping differences among builds

    Even now current player builds are kinda trash not excelling in areas they really should and terrible in areas they shouldn't be.

  • TTZ_Dipsy
    463 posts Member
    I honestly wouldn't mind if they gave human goalies 99 speed, accel, and limb movement, but heavily nerfed the auto-aim functions.
    Trash goalies will still be trash, and the good ones would still need lightning-fast reflexes even with faster wacky wavy inflatable arm flailing tube man arms
  • Follisimo wrote: »
    I mean sure allow people to pick any weight with a size but just nerf it so badly that it isn't a viable choice.

    Didn't I just give you an example?

    "If you choose to be 6'6", your max speed should top out lower than someone who is shorter."

    Now this is based on them bringing back the full customization options like they had last gen. When you select an enforcer for example, you could only go so fast, you couldn't have the same speed as a sniper. Not only that, putting points towards your speed cost you more, but hitting and fighting cost you less.

    For goalies I imagine you'd set your height and weight first. Then that will set your max for every category. If you're 6'6" and 220 lbs maybe your max speed will be 80. If you're 5'10" and 170 lbs maybe your max speed is 92.
  • VeNOM2099
    3178 posts Member
    edited May 2020
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    So a bigger goalie wouldn't necessarily be disadvantaged compared to a smaller goalie, but he'd definitely need to work at always keeping his body center to the shot to be the most effective. While a smaller build goalie could get away with being a little off center

    Opposite.
    A small goalie blocks less of the net so he would have to be focused on keeping center more.
    He'd also have to come out further and take away more angle because of it, but in turn he'd be faster so he can move back or side to side quicker if needed.

    He was saying that though, because if you're not centered and a good shot comes your smaller limbs might not be able to reach out in time. They'll be quicker to reach out and react, but if it's placed good he won't reach it in time. As opposed to the big guy who will react slower to get the limbs up but will reach in time. Basically in tight, big goalies will get sniped more on accurate shots but from far away they'll be more effective if the shot is placed well. Far away, small goalies will react quickly but if they're off centered they won't reach it and in tight they might snag the ones inside the post but they have to be centered well to do so.

    It's kind of a messy way of saying it but you guys are arguing the same point pretty much.

    Y...eah. Kinda.

    What I meant is that a bigger goalie, because his limbs are heavier would have a harder time successfully making a reaching save, so he would be at his most effective letting the puck hit him closer to his chest. This would be both for shots in close or far away (we're trying to get rid of goal line goalies, remember?). If he can just snag shots from the point all day because he's so far back that he has time to see the shot, then that defeats the purpose.

    On the other hand, I don't want big goalies to be hugely disadvantaged over small build goalies. So even though a smaller goalie might have an easier time making a reaching save because he's quicker and more agile, if the shooter places the shot well, he wouldn't be able to reach it to stop it. There has to be pros and cons for each type.

    Also, we'd be factoring in how well he is covering his angles. If he's just camping the goal line, then he is probably playing with an attribute nerf that would make him slower and/or more erratic when attempting a save. If he's in relatively good position, he might see a boost, or at best his stats stay at their base levels.

    It's a bit complicated, yeah. But it makes sense when you think about it. And it allows different people to play different types of goalies that best suites their playing style, with different heights and weights, not just what the META is...
  • HoodHoppers
    1486 posts Member
    Tried goalie again for a morning after watching high ranked goalies play for a couple days.

    Nope. I see why they're always using their right stick. You're damned if you do and damned if you don't but regardless, a goalie isn't going to steal a game if there is no defense in front of him. They're just absolute trash in tight.



    No shot anticipation. If you're in tight you should drop down to butterfly but doing so basically pylons you. So stay upright? Well then it goes through you. There's just absolutely no winning in net in this game. Anticipate the right direction on a breakaway? Oh well, good luck getting an animation on time to stop it. Just absolute trash.
  • VeNOM2099
    3178 posts Member
    edited May 2020
    Tried goalie again for a morning after watching high ranked goalies play for a couple days.

    Nope. I see why they're always using their right stick. You're damned if you do and damned if you don't but regardless, a goalie isn't going to steal a game if there is no defense in front of him. They're just absolute trash in tight.



    No shot anticipation. If you're in tight you should drop down to butterfly but doing so basically pylons you. So stay upright? Well then it goes through you. There's just absolutely no winning in net in this game. Anticipate the right direction on a breakaway? Oh well, good luck getting an animation on time to stop it. Just absolute trash.

    yeah, see? That animation is the reason I quit this game cold turkey. I even got banned from LG because I peaced out in the middle of a game after a goal like that. I was like, Nah, i'm good, fam! I choose Life and Sanity over this ish... **UNINSTALLED!**

    There's absolutely NO reason why the goalie doesn't stick out a limb there. But he doesn't. And you could argue that it would've been a goal anyways (at least that's what Ben would tell us), but at the very least pretend you actually are an NHL goalie and friggin reach for the puck!

    Jeez... I just got some major horrible flashbacks after watching that clip. I just hate, hate, HATE this game. :(:(:(

    I gotta go play some Formula One.
  • dr_shooter
    35 posts Member
    edited May 2020
    Well, if his arm would go out to make the save as it SHOULD DO, then the goalie would have a chance to make the save, and we know that isn't what EA wants to happen. They program it so he just sits there, and doesn't move.

    Show me a real life goalie at any level of hockey, who in that same situation would just sit there, and not move his arm out at all to attempt to make a save; it just wouldn't happen. Of course he'd try to make the save, or he'd be on the bench. In fact, he'd probably not only put his arm/elbow out, he'd also lunge his whole body over to get in front of it. See Marc-Andre Fleury's save in game 7 against Detroit in the 09 Stanley Cup finals at the end of the game.

    Do you think they'd give us that same animation for the kind of situation that HoodHoppers posted? Of course they never will. And we know why they never will.

    New flash, devs...GOALIES TRY TO MAKE SAVES AT ALL TIMES! I know that none of you understand goaltending, but take my word for it. But, not in Ben Ross' version of hockey. In his version, the goalie just sits there; and watches the puck go by, and makes no attempt to save it.

    It's just a joke. It's tired; it's worn out; and most goalies are just over it. Which is why so many have quit. I've never seen a company chase so many of their paying customers away, because they care so much more about favoring one portion of their paying customers, over the other. Not only that, but the portion they choose to screw over every year (goalies) are the most important players on the ice!! It's just mind-blowing.

    However, that's EA's fault more than anything; for letting them screw goalies as much as they purposely do every year, and get away with it.
    Post edited by dr_shooter on
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    The goalie has a save reaction model. You all mostly agree that you don't want goalies sitting on the goal line in the middle of the net. So to make something like that work, you have to have a save reaction model that takes longer for limbs to react/get to pucks the further they are from your body. So if you drop down in line with a shot and just need to flinch to make a save, it is quicker than reaching out 3 feet from your chest to make a save, which would also be the perimeter of the net if you were camped in the middle on the goal line.

    On top of that it isn't just distance based for how far you have to reach, there is also a base time for that to take so reaching the same distance is going to take you the same time. If a shot is taken from 10 feet away at 75 mph, there is obviously less time to react to it than a shot from 40 feet away at the same speed.

    This means that if it takes you the same amount of frames to reach a puck that is 3 feet away from your chest that you may save it if the shot is from 40 feet away but probably not if its right on the door step.

    If you want to commit to a side and pre-emptively take away space in the net as you are moving there, that is what the right stick does. It stretches out your legs and your blocker or trapper to the side your pushing to to take away space. Even without making a reactionary save, you may just take away the net and have the puck hit you. If you are tracking the puck well and there isn't as much open net, you may not need to stretch out like that and just slide over and have the net covered with your full body.

    Regardless you want to stay as in line with the puck as you can but there are times where you need to get over quicker and cover more empty net and/or times when you know the puck carrier has committed and you want to fully take away that side/open net from them.

    There are definitely things we can do to have the goalie react more to the puck contextually and those are the types of things we are looking at but we also want the human goalie to have manual control. If you drop to butterfly on one side of the net while the one timer is being driven into the other like the first goal in that video, you are at the mercy of a reactionary save compared to the goalie that does push over earlier with their right stick to take away more of the net that may get hit with the puck incidentally and is also decreasing the distance their limbs need to move to make a quicker reactionary save.

    Could more be done automatically, I guess so but I would assume most of you would want us to continue to work on responsiveness and more control so that more of it is still manually controlled and it is the human goalie making the saves and not the game.

    Pieces we are looking at are decoupling the upper body from the lower to be able to take away more of the net relative to the current puck location and have it relative to how you are moving, etc. but I still don't think without the human giving us input that they want to stretch out their limbs and take away the net that we would do all that automatically. They would still need to be telling us they want to drive into the post or use a butterfly slide or spread v save to take away parts of the net where as a straight butterfly drop would be more about getting big in the area you are dropping to with some favoring towards the puck (ie leaning more left/right, etc., glove or blocker reaching out a bit, etc.)
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    The goalie has a save reaction model. You all mostly agree that you don't want goalies sitting on the goal line in the middle of the net. So to make something like that work, you have to have a save reaction model that takes longer for limbs to react/get to pucks the further they are from your body. So if you drop down in line with a shot and just need to flinch to make a save, it is quicker than reaching out 3 feet from your chest to make a save, which would also be the perimeter of the net if you were camped in the middle on the goal line.

    On top of that it isn't just distance based for how far you have to reach, there is also a base time for that to take so reaching the same distance is going to take you the same time. If a shot is taken from 10 feet away at 75 mph, there is obviously less time to react to it than a shot from 40 feet away at the same speed.

    This means that if it takes you the same amount of frames to reach a puck that is 3 feet away from your chest that you may save it if the shot is from 40 feet away but probably not if its right on the door step.

    If you want to commit to a side and pre-emptively take away space in the net as you are moving there, that is what the right stick does. It stretches out your legs and your blocker or trapper to the side your pushing to to take away space. Even without making a reactionary save, you may just take away the net and have the puck hit you. If you are tracking the puck well and there isn't as much open net, you may not need to stretch out like that and just slide over and have the net covered with your full body.

    Regardless you want to stay as in line with the puck as you can but there are times where you need to get over quicker and cover more empty net and/or times when you know the puck carrier has committed and you want to fully take away that side/open net from them.

    There are definitely things we can do to have the goalie react more to the puck contextually and those are the types of things we are looking at but we also want the human goalie to have manual control. If you drop to butterfly on one side of the net while the one timer is being driven into the other like the first goal in that video, you are at the mercy of a reactionary save compared to the goalie that does push over earlier with their right stick to take away more of the net that may get hit with the puck incidentally and is also decreasing the distance their limbs need to move to make a quicker reactionary save.

    Could more be done automatically, I guess so but I would assume most of you would want us to continue to work on responsiveness and more control so that more of it is still manually controlled and it is the human goalie making the saves and not the game.

    Pieces we are looking at are decoupling the upper body from the lower to be able to take away more of the net relative to the current puck location and have it relative to how you are moving, etc. but I still don't think without the human giving us input that they want to stretch out their limbs and take away the net that we would do all that automatically. They would still need to be telling us they want to drive into the post or use a butterfly slide or spread v save to take away parts of the net where as a straight butterfly drop would be more about getting big in the area you are dropping to with some favoring towards the puck (ie leaning more left/right, etc., glove or blocker reaching out a bit, etc.)

    Thanks for the great response, Ben. It’s a shame this didn’t generate a response. The bolded part sounds amazing, and I think it’d really help goalies on weak angle shots and pivots.

    I still think we need much “faster” goalies in terms of foot speed, as well as implementing some of Venom’s ideas because having different goalies play different styles would be so cool to see. The statue impression LG goalies need to go. If they want to play blocking, they should actually have to know a little about the position and still respect angles. The position just seems so overly-simplified and lacking engagement atm. But I’m glad to see there’s some plans at least being discussed. Loving the goalie deflections too. As a goalie, it’s literally the reason I didn’t skip 20 so glad to see there’s possibly more in-store in the future!
  • HoodHoppers
    1486 posts Member
    NHLDev wrote: »
    The goalie has a save reaction model. You all mostly agree that you don't want goalies sitting on the goal line in the middle of the net. So to make something like that work, you have to have a save reaction model that takes longer for limbs to react/get to pucks the further they are from your body. So if you drop down in line with a shot and just need to flinch to make a save, it is quicker than reaching out 3 feet from your chest to make a save, which would also be the perimeter of the net if you were camped in the middle on the goal line.

    On top of that it isn't just distance based for how far you have to reach, there is also a base time for that to take so reaching the same distance is going to take you the same time. If a shot is taken from 10 feet away at 75 mph, there is obviously less time to react to it than a shot from 40 feet away at the same speed.

    This means that if it takes you the same amount of frames to reach a puck that is 3 feet away from your chest that you may save it if the shot is from 40 feet away but probably not if its right on the door step.

    If you want to commit to a side and pre-emptively take away space in the net as you are moving there, that is what the right stick does. It stretches out your legs and your blocker or trapper to the side your pushing to to take away space. Even without making a reactionary save, you may just take away the net and have the puck hit you. If you are tracking the puck well and there isn't as much open net, you may not need to stretch out like that and just slide over and have the net covered with your full body.

    Regardless you want to stay as in line with the puck as you can but there are times where you need to get over quicker and cover more empty net and/or times when you know the puck carrier has committed and you want to fully take away that side/open net from them.

    There are definitely things we can do to have the goalie react more to the puck contextually and those are the types of things we are looking at but we also want the human goalie to have manual control. If you drop to butterfly on one side of the net while the one timer is being driven into the other like the first goal in that video, you are at the mercy of a reactionary save compared to the goalie that does push over earlier with their right stick to take away more of the net that may get hit with the puck incidentally and is also decreasing the distance their limbs need to move to make a quicker reactionary save.

    Could more be done automatically, I guess so but I would assume most of you would want us to continue to work on responsiveness and more control so that more of it is still manually controlled and it is the human goalie making the saves and not the game.

    Pieces we are looking at are decoupling the upper body from the lower to be able to take away more of the net relative to the current puck location and have it relative to how you are moving, etc. but I still don't think without the human giving us input that they want to stretch out their limbs and take away the net that we would do all that automatically. They would still need to be telling us they want to drive into the post or use a butterfly slide or spread v save to take away parts of the net where as a straight butterfly drop would be more about getting big in the area you are dropping to with some favoring towards the puck (ie leaning more left/right, etc., glove or blocker reaching out a bit, etc.)

    Do you happen to know why AI goalies will respond appropriately and react preemptively as opposed to manual goaltending? I find that AI goalies can be absolutely inhuman and react to shots way faster than manual goalies do. All of those clunky goals where my goalie doesn't even reach out never seem to happen to the AI. Their pads flare out, their limbs are super active, etc. Why as a human goalie if I slide in the butterfly it doesn't prompt a reaction half of the time but AI goalies will often just sprawl out and do everything to get in the way? It just seems we are so handicapped. Do AI goalies have increased reaction save time or is it equal (I would recommend lowering it by at least 5 for 6s matches)?

    Also, why should I have to use a desperation save mechanic for something that isn't a desperation save? One big issue I have is the consistency in how far you slide to with the right stick, and also depending on how you're squared up to the shooter, the angle of it. Also if you use it, you're basically full committing to one side. It should be used in cases where you're caught on the wrong side of the net and need to scramble to make the save, but if I'm on the right side of the net and somebody shoots the puck right side, I expect my goalie to save it if there is an opportunity to do so. I shouldn't have to risk throwing my entire body out of the net while exposing my five hole just to get a save.
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    NHLDev wrote: »
    The goalie has a save reaction model. You all mostly agree that you don't want goalies sitting on the goal line in the middle of the net. So to make something like that work, you have to have a save reaction model that takes longer for limbs to react/get to pucks the further they are from your body. So if you drop down in line with a shot and just need to flinch to make a save, it is quicker than reaching out 3 feet from your chest to make a save, which would also be the perimeter of the net if you were camped in the middle on the goal line.

    On top of that it isn't just distance based for how far you have to reach, there is also a base time for that to take so reaching the same distance is going to take you the same time. If a shot is taken from 10 feet away at 75 mph, there is obviously less time to react to it than a shot from 40 feet away at the same speed.

    This means that if it takes you the same amount of frames to reach a puck that is 3 feet away from your chest that you may save it if the shot is from 40 feet away but probably not if its right on the door step.

    If you want to commit to a side and pre-emptively take away space in the net as you are moving there, that is what the right stick does. It stretches out your legs and your blocker or trapper to the side your pushing to to take away space. Even without making a reactionary save, you may just take away the net and have the puck hit you. If you are tracking the puck well and there isn't as much open net, you may not need to stretch out like that and just slide over and have the net covered with your full body.

    Regardless you want to stay as in line with the puck as you can but there are times where you need to get over quicker and cover more empty net and/or times when you know the puck carrier has committed and you want to fully take away that side/open net from them.

    There are definitely things we can do to have the goalie react more to the puck contextually and those are the types of things we are looking at but we also want the human goalie to have manual control. If you drop to butterfly on one side of the net while the one timer is being driven into the other like the first goal in that video, you are at the mercy of a reactionary save compared to the goalie that does push over earlier with their right stick to take away more of the net that may get hit with the puck incidentally and is also decreasing the distance their limbs need to move to make a quicker reactionary save.

    Could more be done automatically, I guess so but I would assume most of you would want us to continue to work on responsiveness and more control so that more of it is still manually controlled and it is the human goalie making the saves and not the game.

    Pieces we are looking at are decoupling the upper body from the lower to be able to take away more of the net relative to the current puck location and have it relative to how you are moving, etc. but I still don't think without the human giving us input that they want to stretch out their limbs and take away the net that we would do all that automatically. They would still need to be telling us they want to drive into the post or use a butterfly slide or spread v save to take away parts of the net where as a straight butterfly drop would be more about getting big in the area you are dropping to with some favoring towards the puck (ie leaning more left/right, etc., glove or blocker reaching out a bit, etc.)

    Do you happen to know why AI goalies will respond appropriately and react preemptively as opposed to manual goaltending? I find that AI goalies can be absolutely inhuman and react to shots way faster than manual goalies do. All of those clunky goals where my goalie doesn't even reach out never seem to happen to the AI. Their pads flare out, their limbs are super active, etc. Why as a human goalie if I slide in the butterfly it doesn't prompt a reaction half of the time but AI goalies will often just sprawl out and do everything to get in the way? It just seems we are so handicapped. Do AI goalies have increased reaction save time or is it equal (I would recommend lowering it by at least 5 for 6s matches)?

    Also, why should I have to use a desperation save mechanic for something that isn't a desperation save? One big issue I have is the consistency in how far you slide to with the right stick, and also depending on how you're squared up to the shooter, the angle of it. Also if you use it, you're basically full committing to one side. It should be used in cases where you're caught on the wrong side of the net and need to scramble to make the save, but if I'm on the right side of the net and somebody shoots the puck right side, I expect my goalie to save it if there is an opportunity to do so. I shouldn't have to risk throwing my entire body out of the net while exposing my five hole just to get a save.

    The ai goalies will make pre-emptive saves to take away the net and a human goalie can do that with the right stick. We don't automatically do something pre-emtpively for the human because we want it to be in manual control. In the past, the human goalie got auto desperation saves, etc. and there may be some goalies that had fun with that but now they are all earned and much more is manual and in the human goalies control. Not sure why you feel that the right stick is a desperation save. I would consider the dive and pack stack to be desperation. Sure it is committed to one side, but it is just taking away more net by reaching out as you slide because you aren't over there enough in time. If you are already on that side of the net in line with the puck, I wouldn't expect you to use it -- you should be able to just drop into butterfly and make a blocking save. However, if the puck is still to your side by a foot or two, you aren't actually in line with the puck/good position and may want to still use the right stick to pre-emptively take away that space rather than waiting on a reactionary save to play as you slide over in butterfly.

    But that is why we are looking at contextual body positioning that would react more to the puck in butterfly. It is just a fine line between the game taking away space and helping people that sit back on their goal line off line from the puck vs doing something manual and actually getting over to it yourself.

    If anything the human goalies have faster reflexes to make saves due to how the game is tuned to reward them for good positioning. An ai goalie can still be beat in position due to more realistic reaction time on a good shot. Screens also have a more realistic impact on ai goalies as human goalies get more frustrated when they feel they are in position and get beat -- but that is something that is still worth looking at/addressing as people don't like how collapsing defenses are punished enough as well -- its all a balance.

    If you slide over with non precision butterfly when down, if you don't like using the right stick, you will see you push over further and cut off the gaps faster and thus make more saves getting into better position faster but again, that takes using non-precision and goalies that use the legacy controls have that less accessible on LB/L1 so that is why the right stick may still be the way to go.
  • HoodHoppers
    1486 posts Member
    NHLDev wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    The goalie has a save reaction model. You all mostly agree that you don't want goalies sitting on the goal line in the middle of the net. So to make something like that work, you have to have a save reaction model that takes longer for limbs to react/get to pucks the further they are from your body. So if you drop down in line with a shot and just need to flinch to make a save, it is quicker than reaching out 3 feet from your chest to make a save, which would also be the perimeter of the net if you were camped in the middle on the goal line.

    On top of that it isn't just distance based for how far you have to reach, there is also a base time for that to take so reaching the same distance is going to take you the same time. If a shot is taken from 10 feet away at 75 mph, there is obviously less time to react to it than a shot from 40 feet away at the same speed.

    This means that if it takes you the same amount of frames to reach a puck that is 3 feet away from your chest that you may save it if the shot is from 40 feet away but probably not if its right on the door step.

    If you want to commit to a side and pre-emptively take away space in the net as you are moving there, that is what the right stick does. It stretches out your legs and your blocker or trapper to the side your pushing to to take away space. Even without making a reactionary save, you may just take away the net and have the puck hit you. If you are tracking the puck well and there isn't as much open net, you may not need to stretch out like that and just slide over and have the net covered with your full body.

    Regardless you want to stay as in line with the puck as you can but there are times where you need to get over quicker and cover more empty net and/or times when you know the puck carrier has committed and you want to fully take away that side/open net from them.

    There are definitely things we can do to have the goalie react more to the puck contextually and those are the types of things we are looking at but we also want the human goalie to have manual control. If you drop to butterfly on one side of the net while the one timer is being driven into the other like the first goal in that video, you are at the mercy of a reactionary save compared to the goalie that does push over earlier with their right stick to take away more of the net that may get hit with the puck incidentally and is also decreasing the distance their limbs need to move to make a quicker reactionary save.

    Could more be done automatically, I guess so but I would assume most of you would want us to continue to work on responsiveness and more control so that more of it is still manually controlled and it is the human goalie making the saves and not the game.

    Pieces we are looking at are decoupling the upper body from the lower to be able to take away more of the net relative to the current puck location and have it relative to how you are moving, etc. but I still don't think without the human giving us input that they want to stretch out their limbs and take away the net that we would do all that automatically. They would still need to be telling us they want to drive into the post or use a butterfly slide or spread v save to take away parts of the net where as a straight butterfly drop would be more about getting big in the area you are dropping to with some favoring towards the puck (ie leaning more left/right, etc., glove or blocker reaching out a bit, etc.)

    Do you happen to know why AI goalies will respond appropriately and react preemptively as opposed to manual goaltending? I find that AI goalies can be absolutely inhuman and react to shots way faster than manual goalies do. All of those clunky goals where my goalie doesn't even reach out never seem to happen to the AI. Their pads flare out, their limbs are super active, etc. Why as a human goalie if I slide in the butterfly it doesn't prompt a reaction half of the time but AI goalies will often just sprawl out and do everything to get in the way? It just seems we are so handicapped. Do AI goalies have increased reaction save time or is it equal (I would recommend lowering it by at least 5 for 6s matches)?

    Also, why should I have to use a desperation save mechanic for something that isn't a desperation save? One big issue I have is the consistency in how far you slide to with the right stick, and also depending on how you're squared up to the shooter, the angle of it. Also if you use it, you're basically full committing to one side. It should be used in cases where you're caught on the wrong side of the net and need to scramble to make the save, but if I'm on the right side of the net and somebody shoots the puck right side, I expect my goalie to save it if there is an opportunity to do so. I shouldn't have to risk throwing my entire body out of the net while exposing my five hole just to get a save.

    The ai goalies will make pre-emptive saves to take away the net and a human goalie can do that with the right stick. We don't automatically do something pre-emtpively for the human because we want it to be in manual control. In the past, the human goalie got auto desperation saves, etc. and there may be some goalies that had fun with that but now they are all earned and much more is manual and in the human goalies control. Not sure why you feel that the right stick is a desperation save. I would consider the dive and pack stack to be desperation. Sure it is committed to one side, but it is just taking away more net by reaching out as you slide because you aren't over there enough in time. If you are already on that side of the net in line with the puck, I wouldn't expect you to use it -- you should be able to just drop into butterfly and make a blocking save. However, if the puck is still to your side by a foot or two, you aren't actually in line with the puck/good position and may want to still use the right stick to pre-emptively take away that space rather than waiting on a reactionary save to play as you slide over in butterfly.

    But that is why we are looking at contextual body positioning that would react more to the puck in butterfly. It is just a fine line between the game taking away space and helping people that sit back on their goal line off line from the puck vs doing something manual and actually getting over to it yourself.

    If anything the human goalies have faster reflexes to make saves due to how the game is tuned to reward them for good positioning. An ai goalie can still be beat in position due to more realistic reaction time on a good shot. Screens also have a more realistic impact on ai goalies as human goalies get more frustrated when they feel they are in position and get beat -- but that is something that is still worth looking at/addressing as people don't like how collapsing defenses are punished enough as well -- its all a balance.

    If you slide over with non precision butterfly when down, if you don't like using the right stick, you will see you push over further and cut off the gaps faster and thus make more saves getting into better position faster but again, that takes using non-precision and goalies that use the legacy controls have that less accessible on LB/L1 so that is why the right stick may still be the way to go.

    Well that explains a lot. Could it be possible to try tuning manual goalies to have pre-emptive saves but lower their reaction times a bit? Wouldn't that be more realistic? All of those breakaway and in tight chances we think we should save would finally get help like we used to make in previous versions of the game, and then sitting on the goal line would also be hindered and force goalies to play better positionally?

    Is there something in that logic that doesn't make sense to you?
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    NHLDev wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    The goalie has a save reaction model. You all mostly agree that you don't want goalies sitting on the goal line in the middle of the net. So to make something like that work, you have to have a save reaction model that takes longer for limbs to react/get to pucks the further they are from your body. So if you drop down in line with a shot and just need to flinch to make a save, it is quicker than reaching out 3 feet from your chest to make a save, which would also be the perimeter of the net if you were camped in the middle on the goal line.

    On top of that it isn't just distance based for how far you have to reach, there is also a base time for that to take so reaching the same distance is going to take you the same time. If a shot is taken from 10 feet away at 75 mph, there is obviously less time to react to it than a shot from 40 feet away at the same speed.

    This means that if it takes you the same amount of frames to reach a puck that is 3 feet away from your chest that you may save it if the shot is from 40 feet away but probably not if its right on the door step.

    If you want to commit to a side and pre-emptively take away space in the net as you are moving there, that is what the right stick does. It stretches out your legs and your blocker or trapper to the side your pushing to to take away space. Even without making a reactionary save, you may just take away the net and have the puck hit you. If you are tracking the puck well and there isn't as much open net, you may not need to stretch out like that and just slide over and have the net covered with your full body.

    Regardless you want to stay as in line with the puck as you can but there are times where you need to get over quicker and cover more empty net and/or times when you know the puck carrier has committed and you want to fully take away that side/open net from them.

    There are definitely things we can do to have the goalie react more to the puck contextually and those are the types of things we are looking at but we also want the human goalie to have manual control. If you drop to butterfly on one side of the net while the one timer is being driven into the other like the first goal in that video, you are at the mercy of a reactionary save compared to the goalie that does push over earlier with their right stick to take away more of the net that may get hit with the puck incidentally and is also decreasing the distance their limbs need to move to make a quicker reactionary save.

    Could more be done automatically, I guess so but I would assume most of you would want us to continue to work on responsiveness and more control so that more of it is still manually controlled and it is the human goalie making the saves and not the game.

    Pieces we are looking at are decoupling the upper body from the lower to be able to take away more of the net relative to the current puck location and have it relative to how you are moving, etc. but I still don't think without the human giving us input that they want to stretch out their limbs and take away the net that we would do all that automatically. They would still need to be telling us they want to drive into the post or use a butterfly slide or spread v save to take away parts of the net where as a straight butterfly drop would be more about getting big in the area you are dropping to with some favoring towards the puck (ie leaning more left/right, etc., glove or blocker reaching out a bit, etc.)

    Do you happen to know why AI goalies will respond appropriately and react preemptively as opposed to manual goaltending? I find that AI goalies can be absolutely inhuman and react to shots way faster than manual goalies do. All of those clunky goals where my goalie doesn't even reach out never seem to happen to the AI. Their pads flare out, their limbs are super active, etc. Why as a human goalie if I slide in the butterfly it doesn't prompt a reaction half of the time but AI goalies will often just sprawl out and do everything to get in the way? It just seems we are so handicapped. Do AI goalies have increased reaction save time or is it equal (I would recommend lowering it by at least 5 for 6s matches)?

    Also, why should I have to use a desperation save mechanic for something that isn't a desperation save? One big issue I have is the consistency in how far you slide to with the right stick, and also depending on how you're squared up to the shooter, the angle of it. Also if you use it, you're basically full committing to one side. It should be used in cases where you're caught on the wrong side of the net and need to scramble to make the save, but if I'm on the right side of the net and somebody shoots the puck right side, I expect my goalie to save it if there is an opportunity to do so. I shouldn't have to risk throwing my entire body out of the net while exposing my five hole just to get a save.

    The ai goalies will make pre-emptive saves to take away the net and a human goalie can do that with the right stick. We don't automatically do something pre-emtpively for the human because we want it to be in manual control. In the past, the human goalie got auto desperation saves, etc. and there may be some goalies that had fun with that but now they are all earned and much more is manual and in the human goalies control. Not sure why you feel that the right stick is a desperation save. I would consider the dive and pack stack to be desperation. Sure it is committed to one side, but it is just taking away more net by reaching out as you slide because you aren't over there enough in time. If you are already on that side of the net in line with the puck, I wouldn't expect you to use it -- you should be able to just drop into butterfly and make a blocking save. However, if the puck is still to your side by a foot or two, you aren't actually in line with the puck/good position and may want to still use the right stick to pre-emptively take away that space rather than waiting on a reactionary save to play as you slide over in butterfly.

    But that is why we are looking at contextual body positioning that would react more to the puck in butterfly. It is just a fine line between the game taking away space and helping people that sit back on their goal line off line from the puck vs doing something manual and actually getting over to it yourself.

    If anything the human goalies have faster reflexes to make saves due to how the game is tuned to reward them for good positioning. An ai goalie can still be beat in position due to more realistic reaction time on a good shot. Screens also have a more realistic impact on ai goalies as human goalies get more frustrated when they feel they are in position and get beat -- but that is something that is still worth looking at/addressing as people don't like how collapsing defenses are punished enough as well -- its all a balance.

    If you slide over with non precision butterfly when down, if you don't like using the right stick, you will see you push over further and cut off the gaps faster and thus make more saves getting into better position faster but again, that takes using non-precision and goalies that use the legacy controls have that less accessible on LB/L1 so that is why the right stick may still be the way to go.

    Well that explains a lot. Could it be possible to try tuning manual goalies to have pre-emptive saves but lower their reaction times a bit? Wouldn't that be more realistic? All of those breakaway and in tight chances we think we should save would finally get help like we used to make in previous versions of the game, and then sitting on the goal line would also be hindered and force goalies to play better positionally?

    Is there something in that logic that doesn't make sense to you?

    If the goalie makes a pre-emptive save, it can help people at times, but it can also hinder people by taking control away. When goalies used to make pre-emptive saves on wraparounds for example, players used to call it out as hindering them because they thought in a lot of cases they could have got to the post in time and the ai logic was stretching out ahead of time to make a save. So I still believe it is best to give control to the player unless it is something like what we are looking into where you can decouple the body posture/upper body from the movement request.

    In the game currently for example the butterfly will contextually lean to the left or right depending on where you are in the net and where the puck is and that could be taken much further to reach out with a blocker/trapper as you are moving in a direction towards the puck, etc. but it wouldn't be the pre-emptive saves the ai goalies are currently making which are committed saves to the side you are going to -- which is similar to if a human player would request a RS anim , etc.

  • HoodHoppers
    1486 posts Member
    NHLDev wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    The goalie has a save reaction model. You all mostly agree that you don't want goalies sitting on the goal line in the middle of the net. So to make something like that work, you have to have a save reaction model that takes longer for limbs to react/get to pucks the further they are from your body. So if you drop down in line with a shot and just need to flinch to make a save, it is quicker than reaching out 3 feet from your chest to make a save, which would also be the perimeter of the net if you were camped in the middle on the goal line.

    On top of that it isn't just distance based for how far you have to reach, there is also a base time for that to take so reaching the same distance is going to take you the same time. If a shot is taken from 10 feet away at 75 mph, there is obviously less time to react to it than a shot from 40 feet away at the same speed.

    This means that if it takes you the same amount of frames to reach a puck that is 3 feet away from your chest that you may save it if the shot is from 40 feet away but probably not if its right on the door step.

    If you want to commit to a side and pre-emptively take away space in the net as you are moving there, that is what the right stick does. It stretches out your legs and your blocker or trapper to the side your pushing to to take away space. Even without making a reactionary save, you may just take away the net and have the puck hit you. If you are tracking the puck well and there isn't as much open net, you may not need to stretch out like that and just slide over and have the net covered with your full body.

    Regardless you want to stay as in line with the puck as you can but there are times where you need to get over quicker and cover more empty net and/or times when you know the puck carrier has committed and you want to fully take away that side/open net from them.

    There are definitely things we can do to have the goalie react more to the puck contextually and those are the types of things we are looking at but we also want the human goalie to have manual control. If you drop to butterfly on one side of the net while the one timer is being driven into the other like the first goal in that video, you are at the mercy of a reactionary save compared to the goalie that does push over earlier with their right stick to take away more of the net that may get hit with the puck incidentally and is also decreasing the distance their limbs need to move to make a quicker reactionary save.

    Could more be done automatically, I guess so but I would assume most of you would want us to continue to work on responsiveness and more control so that more of it is still manually controlled and it is the human goalie making the saves and not the game.

    Pieces we are looking at are decoupling the upper body from the lower to be able to take away more of the net relative to the current puck location and have it relative to how you are moving, etc. but I still don't think without the human giving us input that they want to stretch out their limbs and take away the net that we would do all that automatically. They would still need to be telling us they want to drive into the post or use a butterfly slide or spread v save to take away parts of the net where as a straight butterfly drop would be more about getting big in the area you are dropping to with some favoring towards the puck (ie leaning more left/right, etc., glove or blocker reaching out a bit, etc.)

    Do you happen to know why AI goalies will respond appropriately and react preemptively as opposed to manual goaltending? I find that AI goalies can be absolutely inhuman and react to shots way faster than manual goalies do. All of those clunky goals where my goalie doesn't even reach out never seem to happen to the AI. Their pads flare out, their limbs are super active, etc. Why as a human goalie if I slide in the butterfly it doesn't prompt a reaction half of the time but AI goalies will often just sprawl out and do everything to get in the way? It just seems we are so handicapped. Do AI goalies have increased reaction save time or is it equal (I would recommend lowering it by at least 5 for 6s matches)?

    Also, why should I have to use a desperation save mechanic for something that isn't a desperation save? One big issue I have is the consistency in how far you slide to with the right stick, and also depending on how you're squared up to the shooter, the angle of it. Also if you use it, you're basically full committing to one side. It should be used in cases where you're caught on the wrong side of the net and need to scramble to make the save, but if I'm on the right side of the net and somebody shoots the puck right side, I expect my goalie to save it if there is an opportunity to do so. I shouldn't have to risk throwing my entire body out of the net while exposing my five hole just to get a save.

    The ai goalies will make pre-emptive saves to take away the net and a human goalie can do that with the right stick. We don't automatically do something pre-emtpively for the human because we want it to be in manual control. In the past, the human goalie got auto desperation saves, etc. and there may be some goalies that had fun with that but now they are all earned and much more is manual and in the human goalies control. Not sure why you feel that the right stick is a desperation save. I would consider the dive and pack stack to be desperation. Sure it is committed to one side, but it is just taking away more net by reaching out as you slide because you aren't over there enough in time. If you are already on that side of the net in line with the puck, I wouldn't expect you to use it -- you should be able to just drop into butterfly and make a blocking save. However, if the puck is still to your side by a foot or two, you aren't actually in line with the puck/good position and may want to still use the right stick to pre-emptively take away that space rather than waiting on a reactionary save to play as you slide over in butterfly.

    But that is why we are looking at contextual body positioning that would react more to the puck in butterfly. It is just a fine line between the game taking away space and helping people that sit back on their goal line off line from the puck vs doing something manual and actually getting over to it yourself.

    If anything the human goalies have faster reflexes to make saves due to how the game is tuned to reward them for good positioning. An ai goalie can still be beat in position due to more realistic reaction time on a good shot. Screens also have a more realistic impact on ai goalies as human goalies get more frustrated when they feel they are in position and get beat -- but that is something that is still worth looking at/addressing as people don't like how collapsing defenses are punished enough as well -- its all a balance.

    If you slide over with non precision butterfly when down, if you don't like using the right stick, you will see you push over further and cut off the gaps faster and thus make more saves getting into better position faster but again, that takes using non-precision and goalies that use the legacy controls have that less accessible on LB/L1 so that is why the right stick may still be the way to go.

    Well that explains a lot. Could it be possible to try tuning manual goalies to have pre-emptive saves but lower their reaction times a bit? Wouldn't that be more realistic? All of those breakaway and in tight chances we think we should save would finally get help like we used to make in previous versions of the game, and then sitting on the goal line would also be hindered and force goalies to play better positionally?

    Is there something in that logic that doesn't make sense to you?

    If the goalie makes a pre-emptive save, it can help people at times, but it can also hinder people by taking control away. When goalies used to make pre-emptive saves on wraparounds for example, players used to call it out as hindering them because they thought in a lot of cases they could have got to the post in time and the ai logic was stretching out ahead of time to make a save. So I still believe it is best to give control to the player unless it is something like what we are looking into where you can decouple the body posture/upper body from the movement request.

    In the game currently for example the butterfly will contextually lean to the left or right depending on where you are in the net and where the puck is and that could be taken much further to reach out with a blocker/trapper as you are moving in a direction towards the puck, etc. but it wouldn't be the pre-emptive saves the ai goalies are currently making which are committed saves to the side you are going to -- which is similar to if a human player would request a RS anim , etc.

    Gotcha. I still think that'd probably be better because at least you wouldn't look like a pylon in net as the puck goes beside you and in. I'd rather watch a shot that's in tight sneak through me because I'm just reaching out to make a save VS having a puck go in slightly beside me because my goalie doesn't understand trying to take away more net is better in tight. We might be able to stop a breakaway finally without it just hitting us luckily. It'd also create a lot more realistic looking goals where pucks go over blockers and gloves, etc.

    No wonder going into the butterfly has been absolutely killing me this year.
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    NHLDev wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    The goalie has a save reaction model. You all mostly agree that you don't want goalies sitting on the goal line in the middle of the net. So to make something like that work, you have to have a save reaction model that takes longer for limbs to react/get to pucks the further they are from your body. So if you drop down in line with a shot and just need to flinch to make a save, it is quicker than reaching out 3 feet from your chest to make a save, which would also be the perimeter of the net if you were camped in the middle on the goal line.

    On top of that it isn't just distance based for how far you have to reach, there is also a base time for that to take so reaching the same distance is going to take you the same time. If a shot is taken from 10 feet away at 75 mph, there is obviously less time to react to it than a shot from 40 feet away at the same speed.

    This means that if it takes you the same amount of frames to reach a puck that is 3 feet away from your chest that you may save it if the shot is from 40 feet away but probably not if its right on the door step.

    If you want to commit to a side and pre-emptively take away space in the net as you are moving there, that is what the right stick does. It stretches out your legs and your blocker or trapper to the side your pushing to to take away space. Even without making a reactionary save, you may just take away the net and have the puck hit you. If you are tracking the puck well and there isn't as much open net, you may not need to stretch out like that and just slide over and have the net covered with your full body.

    Regardless you want to stay as in line with the puck as you can but there are times where you need to get over quicker and cover more empty net and/or times when you know the puck carrier has committed and you want to fully take away that side/open net from them.

    There are definitely things we can do to have the goalie react more to the puck contextually and those are the types of things we are looking at but we also want the human goalie to have manual control. If you drop to butterfly on one side of the net while the one timer is being driven into the other like the first goal in that video, you are at the mercy of a reactionary save compared to the goalie that does push over earlier with their right stick to take away more of the net that may get hit with the puck incidentally and is also decreasing the distance their limbs need to move to make a quicker reactionary save.

    Could more be done automatically, I guess so but I would assume most of you would want us to continue to work on responsiveness and more control so that more of it is still manually controlled and it is the human goalie making the saves and not the game.

    Pieces we are looking at are decoupling the upper body from the lower to be able to take away more of the net relative to the current puck location and have it relative to how you are moving, etc. but I still don't think without the human giving us input that they want to stretch out their limbs and take away the net that we would do all that automatically. They would still need to be telling us they want to drive into the post or use a butterfly slide or spread v save to take away parts of the net where as a straight butterfly drop would be more about getting big in the area you are dropping to with some favoring towards the puck (ie leaning more left/right, etc., glove or blocker reaching out a bit, etc.)

    Do you happen to know why AI goalies will respond appropriately and react preemptively as opposed to manual goaltending? I find that AI goalies can be absolutely inhuman and react to shots way faster than manual goalies do. All of those clunky goals where my goalie doesn't even reach out never seem to happen to the AI. Their pads flare out, their limbs are super active, etc. Why as a human goalie if I slide in the butterfly it doesn't prompt a reaction half of the time but AI goalies will often just sprawl out and do everything to get in the way? It just seems we are so handicapped. Do AI goalies have increased reaction save time or is it equal (I would recommend lowering it by at least 5 for 6s matches)?

    Also, why should I have to use a desperation save mechanic for something that isn't a desperation save? One big issue I have is the consistency in how far you slide to with the right stick, and also depending on how you're squared up to the shooter, the angle of it. Also if you use it, you're basically full committing to one side. It should be used in cases where you're caught on the wrong side of the net and need to scramble to make the save, but if I'm on the right side of the net and somebody shoots the puck right side, I expect my goalie to save it if there is an opportunity to do so. I shouldn't have to risk throwing my entire body out of the net while exposing my five hole just to get a save.

    The ai goalies will make pre-emptive saves to take away the net and a human goalie can do that with the right stick. We don't automatically do something pre-emtpively for the human because we want it to be in manual control. In the past, the human goalie got auto desperation saves, etc. and there may be some goalies that had fun with that but now they are all earned and much more is manual and in the human goalies control. Not sure why you feel that the right stick is a desperation save. I would consider the dive and pack stack to be desperation. Sure it is committed to one side, but it is just taking away more net by reaching out as you slide because you aren't over there enough in time. If you are already on that side of the net in line with the puck, I wouldn't expect you to use it -- you should be able to just drop into butterfly and make a blocking save. However, if the puck is still to your side by a foot or two, you aren't actually in line with the puck/good position and may want to still use the right stick to pre-emptively take away that space rather than waiting on a reactionary save to play as you slide over in butterfly.

    But that is why we are looking at contextual body positioning that would react more to the puck in butterfly. It is just a fine line between the game taking away space and helping people that sit back on their goal line off line from the puck vs doing something manual and actually getting over to it yourself.

    If anything the human goalies have faster reflexes to make saves due to how the game is tuned to reward them for good positioning. An ai goalie can still be beat in position due to more realistic reaction time on a good shot. Screens also have a more realistic impact on ai goalies as human goalies get more frustrated when they feel they are in position and get beat -- but that is something that is still worth looking at/addressing as people don't like how collapsing defenses are punished enough as well -- its all a balance.

    If you slide over with non precision butterfly when down, if you don't like using the right stick, you will see you push over further and cut off the gaps faster and thus make more saves getting into better position faster but again, that takes using non-precision and goalies that use the legacy controls have that less accessible on LB/L1 so that is why the right stick may still be the way to go.

    Well that explains a lot. Could it be possible to try tuning manual goalies to have pre-emptive saves but lower their reaction times a bit? Wouldn't that be more realistic? All of those breakaway and in tight chances we think we should save would finally get help like we used to make in previous versions of the game, and then sitting on the goal line would also be hindered and force goalies to play better positionally?

    Is there something in that logic that doesn't make sense to you?

    If the goalie makes a pre-emptive save, it can help people at times, but it can also hinder people by taking control away. When goalies used to make pre-emptive saves on wraparounds for example, players used to call it out as hindering them because they thought in a lot of cases they could have got to the post in time and the ai logic was stretching out ahead of time to make a save. So I still believe it is best to give control to the player unless it is something like what we are looking into where you can decouple the body posture/upper body from the movement request.

    In the game currently for example the butterfly will contextually lean to the left or right depending on where you are in the net and where the puck is and that could be taken much further to reach out with a blocker/trapper as you are moving in a direction towards the puck, etc. but it wouldn't be the pre-emptive saves the ai goalies are currently making which are committed saves to the side you are going to -- which is similar to if a human player would request a RS anim , etc.

    Gotcha. I still think that'd probably be better because at least you wouldn't look like a pylon in net as the puck goes beside you and in. I'd rather watch a shot that's in tight sneak through me because I'm just reaching out to make a save VS having a puck go in slightly beside me because my goalie doesn't understand trying to take away more net is better in tight. We might be able to stop a breakaway finally without it just hitting us luckily. It'd also create a lot more realistic looking goals where pucks go over blockers and gloves, etc.

    No wonder going into the butterfly has been absolutely killing me this year.

    It was the same last year too but goalies had quicker reactions out further from their body. It helps you make more saves sure but also promotes goal line goalies even more.

    There are definitely improvements that can be made to find a better compromise in those concerns but we just don't want to make the goalie better artificially. We still want it to be down to the human players skill and not the game doing the work as otherwise, teams may as well just play with ai goalies.
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    We still want it to be down to the human players skill and not the game doing the work as otherwise, teams may as well just play with ai goalies.

    AI goalies can't stop most glitch shots/dekes, it's one of the main reasons why human goalies should be preferred.

    Last gen you mentioned the game did a lot more for goalies.. yet the position was still challenging, the human goalies with the best skill were still the best, it was easy to pick up and play yet was hard to master, and most importantly it was FUN.

    I think you need something closer to that rather than what we have now. I don't recall anyone complaining too much about the goalies back then (Aside from the goalie bump penalty glitch). If it ain't broke no need to completely re-work it. Certainly don't take advice from YouTubers who have never laced up an actual pair of skates.
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    We still want it to be down to the human players skill and not the game doing the work as otherwise, teams may as well just play with ai goalies.

    AI goalies can't stop most glitch shots/dekes, it's one of the main reasons why human goalies should be preferred.

    Last gen you mentioned the game did a lot more for goalies.. yet the position was still challenging, the human goalies with the best skill were still the best, it was easy to pick up and play yet was hard to master, and most importantly it was FUN.

    I think you need something closer to that rather than what we have now. I don't recall anyone complaining too much about the goalies back then (Aside from the goalie bump penalty glitch). If it ain't broke no need to completely re-work it. Certainly don't take advice from YouTubers who have never laced up an actual pair of skates.

    I agree. I just don't like the comparison between the, "hey, we don't want you to be rewarded for sitting there" comments yet that's exactly what they're promoting. There was 1 year that was really bad for goal line goalies in the previous generation, and now in this game if you're moving into position it seems you suffer a huge penalty for moving into it because if they shoot against the grain the goalie seems to fade away from it so that also further promotes the "don't move" idea. I never got angry at the game making saves for guys when they were actively moving into the shot from old gen. Sure there were the odd save where the goalie would automatically sprawl out for them, but at least they had to react towards it. Now there's so many saves where the goalies don't move at all and they're still flashing out gloves and whatnot but the guy who reads the play and moves over is getting dunked on consistently.

    Nobody likes to play the position anymore because you're never rewarded for tracking the puck on a consistent level. Can't challenge the shot because lightning passes are happening all over the place (a balance issue I've complained about for a while now) so you're susceptible to one timers, sometimes challenging point shots will have you scored on unscreened because your feet are moving, can't hug the posts because it prompts the slowest animations in the world to get from post to post, etc.

    Everything in this game is actively forcing you to not move in order to be successful.
  • Nobody likes to play the position anymore because you're never rewarded for tracking the puck on a consistent level. Can't challenge the shot because lightning passes are happening all over the place (a balance issue I've complained about for a while now) so you're susceptible to one timers, sometimes challenging point shots will have you scored on unscreened because your feet are moving, can't hug the posts because it prompts the slowest animations in the world to get from post to post, etc.

    100% this. Every problem I have with playing goalie this year is cited right here. Some games I feel helpless/useless. Then when I watch or play against a CPU goalie and its like watching a different game. They don't seem to be limited by any of these issues, and have fluid quick movements that just don't seem to exist for human goalies. They'll go from challenging the shot outside the top of the crease on the right, into a smooth butterfly glide shot to the leftside post in one fluid movement, and be head of 5'7 160lb danglers....no problem at all.
  • VeNOM2099
    3178 posts Member
    edited May 2020
    Nobody likes to play the position anymore because you're never rewarded for tracking the puck on a consistent level. Can't challenge the shot because lightning passes are happening all over the place (a balance issue I've complained about for a while now) so you're susceptible to one timers, sometimes challenging point shots will have you scored on unscreened because your feet are moving, can't hug the posts because it prompts the slowest animations in the world to get from post to post, etc.

    Everything in this game is actively forcing you to not move in order to be successful.

    Basically this.

    And the more I see Ben's replies, the less I'm inclined to believe that the position will change for the better. Everything he types is basically "we don't want to make the goalies actually be good or people will complain".

    I'd like to see Ben (or anyone at EA) call up an actual NHL level goalie and tell them, to their face, that goalies can only make saves if they have the proper distance to react. Just to see them stay silent, get up from their chair, turn around and walk out the door.

    Wow... just wow.
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