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Let's talk Manual Goalie control!

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  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    edited May 2020
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    Nobody likes to play the position anymore because you're never rewarded for tracking the puck on a consistent level. Can't challenge the shot because lightning passes are happening all over the place (a balance issue I've complained about for a while now) so you're susceptible to one timers, sometimes challenging point shots will have you scored on unscreened because your feet are moving, can't hug the posts because it prompts the slowest animations in the world to get from post to post, etc.

    Everything in this game is actively forcing you to not move in order to be successful.

    Basically this.

    And the more I see Ben's replies, the less I'm inclined to believe that the position will change for the better. Everything he types is basically "we don't want to make the goalies actually be good or people will complain".

    I'd like to see Ben (or anyone at EA) call up an actual NHL level goalie and tell them, to their face, that goalies can only make saves if they have the proper distance to react. Just to see them stay silent, get up from their chair, turn around and walk out the door.

    Wow... just wow.

    It is pretty frustrating to take the time to have conversations like this where we go into detail and explain a lot of pieces only to get summarized to a statement like that when it can't be further from the truth.

    The only stances I have took are that we want the improvements to give more control to human goalies so that they can be in control of their own fate and that I don't believe in artificial ways of making the goalie better.

    And everything most of you are asking for is to reward goalies for playing the position, challenging the puck, having good reactions, etc.

    So there is alignment there.

    As far as rewarding goalies that move... Remember that a goalie moving more in the wrong ways and also if their defense isn't very good can lead to more goals than a goalie who stays back in their net purely due to room for error. However, if you are just staying back in your net, it isn't going to be near as good as challenging properly and our mechanics are designed to reward that and will continue to be improved in that way.

    An NHL goalie doesn't think of what they do the way that we would talk about game mechanics but the theory behind it would make complete sense to them and as we design the mechanics we need to think of it from both perspectives.

    - You want to be in good position and square to the puck
    - You want to consider your angles from the puck to your two posts
    - You want to take away as much of the net as a player has to shoot at
    - You may want to pre-emptively slider over and position such that you are taking away net before you react to an actual save to the puck location
    - It is quicker to move your glove an inch than it is to move it 2 feet. (*edited to save others confusion with the typo*)
    - Reaction time is a product of shot speed, shot distance and how far you need to move to get to the puck

    So it isn't as simple as distance equaling if you can save a puck or not... but it is one piece to the puzzle when it comes to physically moving a limb somewhere in time relative to how much time you have.
    Post edited by NHLDev on
  • VeNOM2099
    3178 posts Member
    My point was to say that if a real NHL goalie could answer you, he would tell you that there is no distance at which they can't save a puck whether they are moving or standing still. Most good goalies can stop a puck inches away. That's how fast they can react to a shot. Now compare that to the reaction time of goalies in this game.

    Look, I don't want to lie to you. I want to be (painfully) honest at all times: I'm not even entertaining fantasies that goalies will be good next year. Or even the next. Or the next... Or ever. Not because you or anyone at EA is not trying, but because... well there's just a lot of misinformation when it comes to the position.

    - You want to be in good position and square to the puck
    - You want to consider your angles from the puck to your two posts
    - You want to take away as much of the net as a player has to shoot at

    All these three go together. You want to be in front of the puck, but not just be IN FRONT. You also need to come out and challenge to cut the angles and take away most of the net from the shooter. If you're in front of the puck, but you're completely backed up into your goal line, you're leaving a lot of net open that would result in a goal. Also being square to the puck would necessitate giving goalies the ability to move around the crease much quicker and with more precision than we currently have. Again, a hop-stop movement option would be nice to cover longer distances while allowing us to keep facing the puck and not turn our legs and shoulders away like the t-glide does.


    - You may want to pre-emptively slider over and position such that you are taking away net before you react to an actual save to the puck location

    Never. A goalie doesn't pre-emptively move unless he's conditioned to do so. I don't know who told you that a goalie would move before he needs to move, but that's false. That's probably how you're supposed to play in THIS GAME, but a real goalie reacts. Again, a goalie can react to a shot within inches. He can react to a shot from 5 feet away or further quite easily. Not in THIS game of course, but in real life. Again, if goalies had better movement options, we could actually react to shots the correct way and make a save or at the very least attempt a save.

    - It takes longer to move your glove an inch than it does 2 feet.

    Umh...
    source.gif

    - Reaction time is a product of shot speed, shot distance and how far you need to move to get to the puck.

    Nope. Reaction time is a product of a goalie's reflexes and athleticism. That's why most goalie's will practice hours and hours at things like Ping-Ping and/or Badminton on top of all the physical training and practice sessions they go through normally. You need to be able to react at lightning speeds, from very short distances and with very, very precise movements. Goalies aren't just flailing around like a fish out of water (unless you're Dominik Hasek). Every movement is calculated and designed to cover the net. Goalies don't allow goals, Shooters simply shoot around us. If I whiff on a shot from 50 feet out, it's because I was completely screened or the shot was redirected. Very rarely will a goalie miscalculate and put a piece of equipment where the puck isn't going. You're never going to see a goalie put his glove low to the ice, if the puck is going high top-corner. That just doesn't happen. Unless the puck was first going low, and then a player redirected it inches away to the top of the net. So the above "it takes longer to move an inch" sentence doesn't make sense. If a puck is shot and my glove is in the way, I know I don't need to move my glove, it's just going to go in. Many times I've made saves in real life where I stretched out my glove hand, and the shooter simply shot towards my glove. There was no need to move. Maybe an inch, as it turns out. But the puck was already heading towards my glove. No need to arc my glove 2 feet to catch a puck that was heading directly at my trapper. And no... It wouldn't have been faster. I'm sure you have some goalie equipment available somewhere. Go put on a trapper, which weighs about 1.5 pounds when it's dry, and try moving it an inch then move it two feet. Tell me which one is faster. Now imagine you're in the 2nd period of a game, and your glove is heavy with persperation. Making it more like 2-3 pounds. Try moving that two feet and tell me it's FASTER than moving it an inch.

    These are the types of things I'm talking about when I say that you have the philosophy of goaltending wrong. The philosophy of hockey wrong.

    Hockey is exciting because there may be two dozen good scoring chances per game, but only like 5-6 goals scored in total. In this game there are like 10 good scoring chances and 8 goals scored. Because goalies don't have the proper tools to keep a decent save percentage unless they have defensive gods playing in front of them. That's not fun. Not for goalies.
  • bryta47
    373 posts Member
    4 min periods is way to short to represent proper hockey. It fails on all levels.
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    edited May 2020
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    My point was to say that if a real NHL goalie could answer you, he would tell you that there is no distance at which they can't save a puck whether they are moving or standing still. Most good goalies can stop a puck inches away. That's how fast they can react to a shot. Now compare that to the reaction time of goalies in this game.

    Look, I don't want to lie to you. I want to be (painfully) honest at all times: I'm not even entertaining fantasies that goalies will be good next year. Or even the next. Or the next... Or ever. Not because you or anyone at EA is not trying, but because... well there's just a lot of misinformation when it comes to the position.

    - You want to be in good position and square to the puck
    - You want to consider your angles from the puck to your two posts
    - You want to take away as much of the net as a player has to shoot at

    All these three go together. You want to be in front of the puck, but not just be IN FRONT. You also need to come out and challenge to cut the angles and take away most of the net from the shooter. If you're in front of the puck, but you're completely backed up into your goal line, you're leaving a lot of net open that would result in a goal. Also being square to the puck would necessitate giving goalies the ability to move around the crease much quicker and with more precision than we currently have. Again, a hop-stop movement option would be nice to cover longer distances while allowing us to keep facing the puck and not turn our legs and shoulders away like the t-glide does.


    - You may want to pre-emptively slider over and position such that you are taking away net before you react to an actual save to the puck location

    Never. A goalie doesn't pre-emptively move unless he's conditioned to do so. I don't know who told you that a goalie would move before he needs to move, but that's false. That's probably how you're supposed to play in THIS GAME, but a real goalie reacts. Again, a goalie can react to a shot within inches. He can react to a shot from 5 feet away or further quite easily. Not in THIS game of course, but in real life. Again, if goalies had better movement options, we could actually react to shots the correct way and make a save or at the very least attempt a save.

    - It takes longer to move your glove an inch than it does 2 feet.

    Umh...
    source.gif

    - Reaction time is a product of shot speed, shot distance and how far you need to move to get to the puck.

    Nope. Reaction time is a product of a goalie's reflexes and athleticism. That's why most goalie's will practice hours and hours at things like Ping-Ping and/or Badminton on top of all the physical training and practice sessions they go through normally. You need to be able to react at lightning speeds, from very short distances and with very, very precise movements. Goalies aren't just flailing around like a fish out of water (unless you're Dominik Hasek). Every movement is calculated and designed to cover the net. Goalies don't allow goals, Shooters simply shoot around us. If I whiff on a shot from 50 feet out, it's because I was completely screened or the shot was redirected. Very rarely will a goalie miscalculate and put a piece of equipment where the puck isn't going. You're never going to see a goalie put his glove low to the ice, if the puck is going high top-corner. That just doesn't happen. Unless the puck was first going low, and then a player redirected it inches away to the top of the net. So the above "it takes longer to move an inch" sentence doesn't make sense. If a puck is shot and my glove is in the way, I know I don't need to move my glove, it's just going to go in. Many times I've made saves in real life where I stretched out my glove hand, and the shooter simply shot towards my glove. There was no need to move. Maybe an inch, as it turns out. But the puck was already heading towards my glove. No need to arc my glove 2 feet to catch a puck that was heading directly at my trapper. And no... It wouldn't have been faster. I'm sure you have some goalie equipment available somewhere. Go put on a trapper, which weighs about 1.5 pounds when it's dry, and try moving it an inch then move it two feet. Tell me which one is faster. Now imagine you're in the 2nd period of a game, and your glove is heavy with persperation. Making it more like 2-3 pounds. Try moving that two feet and tell me it's FASTER than moving it an inch.

    These are the types of things I'm talking about when I say that you have the philosophy of goaltending wrong. The philosophy of hockey wrong.

    Hockey is exciting because there may be two dozen good scoring chances per game, but only like 5-6 goals scored in total. In this game there are like 10 good scoring chances and 8 goals scored. Because goalies don't have the proper tools to keep a decent save percentage unless they have defensive gods playing in front of them. That's not fun. Not for goalies.

    I assume you know and are having fun jumping on it, but otherwise, it is unbelievable that you don't see what I wrote as a typo. I obviously meant that it takes more time to move further as that is exactly how the game is programmed and I have always explained it that way in any past post as well.

    Nothing you wrote is contradicted by anything that we have in the guts of the game mechanics or our design theory around goalies other than I still stand by the fact that goalies take away space before a shot is fired. But maybe you think of pre-emptive as something else. If a player dekes to your left, you aren't waiting for the puck to leave their stick to react to the shot, you are going to try and get as much of your body in front of that puck and where their most likely shot trajectory is and then react to the shot after that and there are more and less levels of commitment in those attempts.

    And that is also what you have been asking for more of as well. You want to see more pre-emptive behavior from the goalie taking away net on their way as they push over in regular butterfly and not just using mechanics like the right stick.

    And your examples of having your glove out and having the puck go in are exactly those cases. You have examples of our game that aren't working as well in that respect in terms of when they blend into saves and the game not realizing the glove is actually in a position and the save itself having the starting glove position in a difference space so as it blends the glove looks like it moves away to go forward. All pieces that can be improved with better blending and more advanced systems. Those are unique pieces of improvement though and not high level theory issues with how goaltenders play the position.

    Geez, if I give you a mile, you take an inch ;)
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    edited May 2020
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    Many times I've made saves in real life where I stretched out my glove hand, and the shooter simply shot towards my glove. There was no need to move. Maybe an inch, as it turns out. But the puck was already heading towards my glove.
    When you talk about stretching out your glove, that is what I mean when I say preemptive.
  • HoodHoppers
    1486 posts Member
    NHLDev wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    Nobody likes to play the position anymore because you're never rewarded for tracking the puck on a consistent level. Can't challenge the shot because lightning passes are happening all over the place (a balance issue I've complained about for a while now) so you're susceptible to one timers, sometimes challenging point shots will have you scored on unscreened because your feet are moving, can't hug the posts because it prompts the slowest animations in the world to get from post to post, etc.

    Everything in this game is actively forcing you to not move in order to be successful.

    Basically this.

    And the more I see Ben's replies, the less I'm inclined to believe that the position will change for the better. Everything he types is basically "we don't want to make the goalies actually be good or people will complain".

    I'd like to see Ben (or anyone at EA) call up an actual NHL level goalie and tell them, to their face, that goalies can only make saves if they have the proper distance to react. Just to see them stay silent, get up from their chair, turn around and walk out the door.

    Wow... just wow.

    It is pretty frustrating to take the time to have conversations like this where we go into detail and explain a lot of pieces only to get summarized to a statement like that when it can't be further from the truth.

    The only stances I have took are that we want the improvements to give more control to human goalies so that they can be in control of their own fate and that I don't believe in artificial ways of making the goalie better.

    And everything most of you are asking for is to reward goalies for playing the position, challenging the puck, having good reactions, etc.

    So there is alignment there.

    As far as rewarding goalies that move... Remember that a goalie moving more in the wrong ways and also if their defense isn't very good can lead to more goals than a goalie who stays back in their net purely due to room for error. However, if you are just staying back in your net, it isn't going to be near as good as challenging properly and our mechanics are designed to reward that and will continue to be improved in that way.

    An NHL goalie doesn't think of what they do the way that we would talk about game mechanics but the theory behind it would make complete sense to them and as we design the mechanics we need to think of it from both perspectives.

    - You want to be in good position and square to the puck
    - You want to consider your angles from the puck to your two posts
    - You want to take away as much of the net as a player has to shoot at
    - You may want to pre-emptively slider over and position such that you are taking away net before you react to an actual save to the puck location
    - It is quicker to move your glove an inch than it is to move it 2 feet. (*edited to save others confusion with the typo*)
    - Reaction time is a product of shot speed, shot distance and how far you need to move to get to the puck

    So it isn't as simple as distance equaling if you can save a puck or not... but it is one piece to the puzzle when it comes to physically moving a limb somewhere in time relative to how much time you have.

    The bolded part doesn't matter enough.
  • HoodHoppers
    1486 posts Member
    I would actually argue that keeping your feet still is more important than cutting the angle in this game.
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    I would actually argue that keeping your feet still is more important than cutting the angle in this game.
    That would only be the case if your movement was decreasing the time it will take for the puck to pass you and/or taking you further off line from the pucks trajectory.
  • VeNOM2099
    3178 posts Member
    edited May 2020
    NHLDev wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    Many times I've made saves in real life where I stretched out my glove hand, and the shooter simply shot towards my glove. There was no need to move. Maybe an inch, as it turns out. But the puck was already heading towards my glove.
    When you talk about stretching out your glove, that is what I mean when I say preemptive.

    But that's not what preemptive means in the context of a hockey goalie. Let's say a team runs a backdoor play. First time, d-man is there to prevent the one-timer. 2nd time, goalie barely makes it there to deflect the puck by REACTING to the shot which he wasn't in great position to save, but he manages anyways. Third time he gets caught watching the players and doesn't react to the obvious (by now) pass for a one timer. Goal. Now the opponent has tried it three times and they're going to try it again. So what the goalie does is he "cheats" to the side that he KNOWS the pass is going to go and pre-loads his limbs to be ready to make a save before the one-timers happens. That's being preemptive.

    Reaching out to make a save isn't preemptive at all, it's a reaction and one that many goalies, at any level of competitive hockey will have learned a hundred thousand times by the time he reaches the semi-pro level like Junior or above. The speed at which he'll react has almost nothing to do with physical prowess at that point. A goalie reacts to make saves, and that's something that's been sorely missing in this game since last gen. Even now, at 47 years of age and out of shape as I am, if someone throws something in my direction, my hands just snake out on their own. Because I've seen it so many damn times by now, it's like a reflex to me. It's not me being preemptive at all. And like @HoodHoppers said, this game rewards you more for NOT moving your skates. It's why you see goalies at the "elite" level in 6s play just park themselves in the middle of the crease and make very tiny adjustments to their position. It's how 99% of the community has been taught by EA's game that goalies should work.

    And that's wrong. That's why the rest of us are upset and want change. Why we want things to go back to how they were last gen where at the very least we were able to keep up with skaters and we could react to shots all day, and shooters had to work to score on us. Not just throw stuff at the net, roll the dice and be rewarded.
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    .
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    Many times I've made saves in real life where I stretched out my glove hand, and the shooter simply shot towards my glove. There was no need to move. Maybe an inch, as it turns out. But the puck was already heading towards my glove.
    When you talk about stretching out your glove, that is what I mean when I say preemptive.

    But that's not what preemptive means in the context of a hockey goalie. Let's say a team runs a backdoor play. First time, d-man is there to prevent the one-timer. 2nd time, goalie barely makes it there to deflect the puck by REACTING to the shot which he wasn't in great position to save, but he manages anyways. Third time he gets caught watching the players and doesn't react to the obvious (by now) pass for a one timer. Goal. Now the opponent has tried it three times and they're going to try it again. So what the goalie does is he "cheats" to the side that he KNOWS the pass is going to go and pre-loads his limbs to be ready to make a save before the one-timers happens. That's being preemptive.

    Reaching out to make a save isn't preemptive at all, it's a reaction and one that many goalies, at any level of competitive hockey will have learned a hundred thousand times by the time he reaches the semi-pro level like Junior or above. The speed at which he'll react has almost nothing to do with physical prowess at that point. A goalie reacts to make saves, and that's something that's been sorely missing in this game since last gen. Even now, at 47 years of age and out of shape as I am, if someone throws something in my direction, my hands just snake out on their own. Because I've seen it so many damn times by now, it's like a reflex to me. It's not me being preemptive at all. And like @HoodHoppers said, this game rewards you more for NOT moving your skates. It's why you see goalies at the "elite" level in 6s play just park themselves in the middle of the crease and make very tiny adjustments to their position. It's how 99% of the community has been taught by EA's game that goalies should work.

    And that's wrong. That's why the rest of us are upset and want change. Why we want things to go back to how they were last gen where at the very least we were able to keep up with skaters and we could react to shots all day, and shooters had to work to score on us. Not just throw stuff at the net, roll the dice and be rewarded.

    If that is the case, what terminology would you like to use for the case where you mentioned you are stretching out your glove hand ahead of the shot leaving the stick and they just shoot it into your glove? I would call the piece after that where you may have had to correct by an inch or two the reaction piece. Sometimes you have to move it more than others as you react to the actual puck position but I am curious what you call the piece before that when you stretch your glove out before the shot vs leaving your glove in your base position
  • HoodHoppers
    1486 posts Member
    I played a game intending on losing, yet trying my best to play the position similar to how a goalie would in real life. Now one problem with that is three things things: your goalie is way too slow to be doing this to react to lightning speed passes and one timers, trying to use post play will get you stuck and not able to move, and stopping breakaways realistically while backing up is just asking to get scored on because goalies don't react until after a shot is made (and also you're too slow).

    I knew I'd get lit up, but I do want to present to ea what it's like if you don't sit on your goal line and your team defense sucks. To skip the entire game you can go to the third video and towards the end it shows every goal that went in on me. Also, it's fun to show the few that also go through me as well. Sorry if you can hear the woman at home came upstairs after her workout and swear about saying it's way too hot upstairs in our house.







    ^Watch this video if you want to skip most of the nonsense. Halfway through I analyze each goal.

    @NHLDev
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    edited May 2020
    I played a game intending on losing, yet trying my best to play the position similar to how a goalie would in real life. Now one problem with that is three things things: your goalie is way too slow to be doing this to react to lightning speed passes and one timers, trying to use post play will get you stuck and not able to move, and stopping breakaways realistically while backing up is just asking to get scored on because goalies don't react until after a shot is made (and also you're too slow).

    I knew I'd get lit up, but I do want to present to ea what it's like if you don't sit on your goal line and your team defense sucks. To skip the entire game you can go to the third video and towards the end it shows every goal that went in on me. Also, it's fun to show the few that also go through me as well. Sorry if you can hear the woman at home came upstairs after her workout and swear about saying it's way too hot upstairs in our house.







    ^Watch this video if you want to skip most of the nonsense. Halfway through I analyze each goal.

    @NHLDev

    Thanks for the videos. I get the perception is that if issues happen in the game that we somehow don't know about them or don't care about them. The reality is goalies are one of the toughest things to get right and we have plenty we can improve.

    When I respond to people and talk about theory it is to understand what they actually want, some seem to think it is that we think things are fine and don't want to improve -- it is just that there are often contradictions in amongst the feedback we get so that is where I ask more questions.

    Seeing the video, there are actually a lot of times that the early movement from your goalie is the auto facing and the movement towards the puck is actually coming quite late. So aside from being able to help with responsiveness and quicker movement, we can't really respond to a late request to move and that comes back to the game having to do more for goalies rather than just rewarding their input.

    At a high level we want all the things that all of you want. We want players to actively play the position and have the control where they can separate themselves form their peers. Quite a few of the goals you give up in these clips would probably still be goals if we continue to accomplish those things unless we took a lot of control away but there are also tons of pieces we can and want to improve.
  • VeNOM2099
    3178 posts Member
    NHLDev wrote: »
    .
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    Many times I've made saves in real life where I stretched out my glove hand, and the shooter simply shot towards my glove. There was no need to move. Maybe an inch, as it turns out. But the puck was already heading towards my glove.
    When you talk about stretching out your glove, that is what I mean when I say preemptive.

    But that's not what preemptive means in the context of a hockey goalie. Let's say a team runs a backdoor play. First time, d-man is there to prevent the one-timer. 2nd time, goalie barely makes it there to deflect the puck by REACTING to the shot which he wasn't in great position to save, but he manages anyways. Third time he gets caught watching the players and doesn't react to the obvious (by now) pass for a one timer. Goal. Now the opponent has tried it three times and they're going to try it again. So what the goalie does is he "cheats" to the side that he KNOWS the pass is going to go and pre-loads his limbs to be ready to make a save before the one-timers happens. That's being preemptive.

    Reaching out to make a save isn't preemptive at all, it's a reaction and one that many goalies, at any level of competitive hockey will have learned a hundred thousand times by the time he reaches the semi-pro level like Junior or above. The speed at which he'll react has almost nothing to do with physical prowess at that point. A goalie reacts to make saves, and that's something that's been sorely missing in this game since last gen. Even now, at 47 years of age and out of shape as I am, if someone throws something in my direction, my hands just snake out on their own. Because I've seen it so many damn times by now, it's like a reflex to me. It's not me being preemptive at all. And like @HoodHoppers said, this game rewards you more for NOT moving your skates. It's why you see goalies at the "elite" level in 6s play just park themselves in the middle of the crease and make very tiny adjustments to their position. It's how 99% of the community has been taught by EA's game that goalies should work.

    And that's wrong. That's why the rest of us are upset and want change. Why we want things to go back to how they were last gen where at the very least we were able to keep up with skaters and we could react to shots all day, and shooters had to work to score on us. Not just throw stuff at the net, roll the dice and be rewarded.

    If that is the case, what terminology would you like to use for the case where you mentioned you are stretching out your glove hand ahead of the shot leaving the stick and they just shoot it into your glove? I would call the piece after that where you may have had to correct by an inch or two the reaction piece. Sometimes you have to move it more than others as you react to the actual puck position but I am curious what you call the piece before that when you stretch your glove out before the shot vs leaving your glove in your base position

    I don't know what you're asking for when you ask for what "terminology" I would use. It's not something that can be explained by a name or technique. Though If I could, I'd liken it to what a Martial Artist does. At first he has to think about his movements: punch, kick, block. But eventually, through training and experience he no longer has to think about it and just does it. They don't think "oh, I need to bring my hand here in front of my face to block a punch", it just happens. Same with goalies.

    The only time I would say a goalie has to think about making a save is when he's screened and there's a scrum in front of the net. At that point the goalie will try to take up as much space in front of his net as possible. He's not looking to stop the puck, he's looking to block the net, which are two entirely different things.

    So I guess the answer to your question would be that there are saves a goalie makes to stop the puck and there are saves the goalie makes when he wants to block the net. A goalie tries to stop the puck when he can see the puck and he knows his body (limbs included) are within the range of the shot. I'd say 99% of these types of shots are either absorbed and smothered, or they're redirected into the corners safely. A goalie tries to block the net when he can't see the whole shot because he's screened or there's a sudden redirection. These types of saves aren't really meant to do anything other than to keep the puck out of the net at any cost, and even if the goalie can stop it, chances are there will be a juicy rebound available or the puck might deflect and trickle in the net.
    NHLDev wrote: »

    Thanks for the videos. I get the perception is that if issues happen in the game that we somehow don't know about them or don't care about them. The reality is goalies are one of the toughest things to get right and we have plenty we can improve.

    When I respond to people and talk about theory it is to understand what they actually want, some seem to think it is that we think things are fine and don't want to improve -- it is just that there are often contradictions in amongst the feedback we get so that is where I ask more questions.

    Seeing the video, there are actually a lot of times that the early movement from your goalie is the auto facing and the movement towards the puck is actually coming quite late. So aside from being able to help with responsiveness and quicker movement, we can't really respond to a late request to move and that comes back to the game having to do more for goalies rather than just rewarding their input.

    At a high level we want all the things that all of you want. We want players to actively play the position and have the control where they can separate themselves form their peers. Quite a few of the goals you give up in these clips would probably still be goals if we continue to accomplish those things unless we took a lot of control away but there are also tons of pieces we can and want to improve.

    The only contradictions come from those that don't know how to actually play the position and they're quite content with how things are currently, because it's easy for them to understand. Just stand in one spot, squeeze the trigger a few times and let your team do the rest.

    You are right; goaltending is THE toughest thing to get right. Which is why many of us in the goalie community have been asking for many many years now to fix our position. We are not in control of our limbs, so that part has to be automatic, unless you can figure out a way to make a normal gamepad give us manual control over them (I did make the suggestion of making LS our skating movement and RS our limbs movements). I'd be fine with automatic limb movement, if they were more reliable and consistent. Positioning should include not just staying in the middle of the line of the shot, but also coming out to take away the angles. The goalie needs to be at the correct spot inside the shot cone to be the most effective, not at the base of the cone where he should ALWAYS be punished for being so deep, unless the shooter is like 2 feet in front of him or inside the crease, at that point the goalie has no choice but to be at his goal line. But even if a shooter is in the slot, there's absolutely NO reason a goalie should be camping his goal line. If you want people to be more active in playing this position, then goalies need better movement options to keep up with the offense. We need to have access to better puck tracking and rotation to keep square to the puck. We need to redirect more shots we see safely into the corners instead of right in front of the net for a rebound goal. If forwards don't like that the puck goes over the boards so much, stop trying to go for the rebound cheese goals then. We need to have faster and smoother post hugging transitions. We need to be able to move post to post faster. We need to cover the puck faster.

    Goalies need to be more than what they are right now. At first there might be a drop in scoring, but skaters will quickly find a way to get back to scoring plenty of goals. The difference will be that they'll actually have to work at scoring on us instead of just throwing stuff at us, then watch the puck get magically sucked onto their stick as they're standing still in the crease, from behind their backs and score into an empty net.
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    .
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    Many times I've made saves in real life where I stretched out my glove hand, and the shooter simply shot towards my glove. There was no need to move. Maybe an inch, as it turns out. But the puck was already heading towards my glove.
    When you talk about stretching out your glove, that is what I mean when I say preemptive.

    But that's not what preemptive means in the context of a hockey goalie. Let's say a team runs a backdoor play. First time, d-man is there to prevent the one-timer. 2nd time, goalie barely makes it there to deflect the puck by REACTING to the shot which he wasn't in great position to save, but he manages anyways. Third time he gets caught watching the players and doesn't react to the obvious (by now) pass for a one timer. Goal. Now the opponent has tried it three times and they're going to try it again. So what the goalie does is he "cheats" to the side that he KNOWS the pass is going to go and pre-loads his limbs to be ready to make a save before the one-timers happens. That's being preemptive.

    Reaching out to make a save isn't preemptive at all, it's a reaction and one that many goalies, at any level of competitive hockey will have learned a hundred thousand times by the time he reaches the semi-pro level like Junior or above. The speed at which he'll react has almost nothing to do with physical prowess at that point. A goalie reacts to make saves, and that's something that's been sorely missing in this game since last gen. Even now, at 47 years of age and out of shape as I am, if someone throws something in my direction, my hands just snake out on their own. Because I've seen it so many damn times by now, it's like a reflex to me. It's not me being preemptive at all. And like @HoodHoppers said, this game rewards you more for NOT moving your skates. It's why you see goalies at the "elite" level in 6s play just park themselves in the middle of the crease and make very tiny adjustments to their position. It's how 99% of the community has been taught by EA's game that goalies should work.

    And that's wrong. That's why the rest of us are upset and want change. Why we want things to go back to how they were last gen where at the very least we were able to keep up with skaters and we could react to shots all day, and shooters had to work to score on us. Not just throw stuff at the net, roll the dice and be rewarded.

    If that is the case, what terminology would you like to use for the case where you mentioned you are stretching out your glove hand ahead of the shot leaving the stick and they just shoot it into your glove? I would call the piece after that where you may have had to correct by an inch or two the reaction piece. Sometimes you have to move it more than others as you react to the actual puck position but I am curious what you call the piece before that when you stretch your glove out before the shot vs leaving your glove in your base position

    I don't know what you're asking for when you ask for what "terminology" I would use. It's not something that can be explained by a name or technique. Though If I could, I'd liken it to what a Martial Artist does. At first he has to think about his movements: punch, kick, block. But eventually, through training and experience he no longer has to think about it and just does it. They don't think "oh, I need to bring my hand here in front of my face to block a punch", it just happens. Same with goalies.

    The only time I would say a goalie has to think about making a save is when he's screened and there's a scrum in front of the net. At that point the goalie will try to take up as much space in front of his net as possible. He's not looking to stop the puck, he's looking to block the net, which are two entirely different things.

    So I guess the answer to your question would be that there are saves a goalie makes to stop the puck and there are saves the goalie makes when he wants to block the net. A goalie tries to stop the puck when he can see the puck and he knows his body (limbs included) are within the range of the shot. I'd say 99% of these types of shots are either absorbed and smothered, or they're redirected into the corners safely. A goalie tries to block the net when he can't see the whole shot because he's screened or there's a sudden redirection. These types of saves aren't really meant to do anything other than to keep the puck out of the net at any cost, and even if the goalie can stop it, chances are there will be a juicy rebound available or the puck might deflect and trickle in the net.
    NHLDev wrote: »

    Thanks for the videos. I get the perception is that if issues happen in the game that we somehow don't know about them or don't care about them. The reality is goalies are one of the toughest things to get right and we have plenty we can improve.

    When I respond to people and talk about theory it is to understand what they actually want, some seem to think it is that we think things are fine and don't want to improve -- it is just that there are often contradictions in amongst the feedback we get so that is where I ask more questions.

    Seeing the video, there are actually a lot of times that the early movement from your goalie is the auto facing and the movement towards the puck is actually coming quite late. So aside from being able to help with responsiveness and quicker movement, we can't really respond to a late request to move and that comes back to the game having to do more for goalies rather than just rewarding their input.

    At a high level we want all the things that all of you want. We want players to actively play the position and have the control where they can separate themselves form their peers. Quite a few of the goals you give up in these clips would probably still be goals if we continue to accomplish those things unless we took a lot of control away but there are also tons of pieces we can and want to improve.

    The only contradictions come from those that don't know how to actually play the position and they're quite content with how things are currently, because it's easy for them to understand. Just stand in one spot, squeeze the trigger a few times and let your team do the rest.

    You are right; goaltending is THE toughest thing to get right. Which is why many of us in the goalie community have been asking for many many years now to fix our position. We are not in control of our limbs, so that part has to be automatic, unless you can figure out a way to make a normal gamepad give us manual control over them (I did make the suggestion of making LS our skating movement and RS our limbs movements). I'd be fine with automatic limb movement, if they were more reliable and consistent. Positioning should include not just staying in the middle of the line of the shot, but also coming out to take away the angles. The goalie needs to be at the correct spot inside the shot cone to be the most effective, not at the base of the cone where he should ALWAYS be punished for being so deep, unless the shooter is like 2 feet in front of him or inside the crease, at that point the goalie has no choice but to be at his goal line. But even if a shooter is in the slot, there's absolutely NO reason a goalie should be camping his goal line. If you want people to be more active in playing this position, then goalies need better movement options to keep up with the offense. We need to have access to better puck tracking and rotation to keep square to the puck. We need to redirect more shots we see safely into the corners instead of right in front of the net for a rebound goal. If forwards don't like that the puck goes over the boards so much, stop trying to go for the rebound cheese goals then. We need to have faster and smoother post hugging transitions. We need to be able to move post to post faster. We need to cover the puck faster.

    Goalies need to be more than what they are right now. At first there might be a drop in scoring, but skaters will quickly find a way to get back to scoring plenty of goals. The difference will be that they'll actually have to work at scoring on us instead of just throwing stuff at us, then watch the puck get magically sucked onto their stick as they're standing still in the crease, from behind their backs and score into an empty net.

    You may not see them as contradictions. I see contradictions on these boards all the time from people that are in the middle of actively agreeing with each other. But that was just an example of why I dig for clarity and get people to explain things further -- sometimes they answer and other times they don't.

    As far as how you have described it, it is how the system works. Sitting on the goal line won't automatically make you worse but since you don't have the angles covered, the opportunity for the puck to pass you at a position where you need to reach further is higher.

    So with the current model, if you can challenge a shot such that you can keep the puck trajectory close to your body basically aligning with the edges of the shot cone you are talking about your reaction time is on point. The further you are offline, challenging or not, the tougher time you are going to have getting a piece of the puck.

    There is a cross over in time as being deeper of course gives you more time but gaining a frame in time for the puck to get to you isn't usually going to be worth the multiple frames of further delay to get your limb on a puck that is further for you to reach.

    We did talk a few years ago about having the right stick control your limbs without movement but ultimately it can do that contextually and we can still reward players more who are pressing towards the location the puck will cross them with their left or right stick both because they are minimizing the distance they need to reach as they get closer to the puck and how that works with the regular save mechanic but also due to showing the game their awareness and intention. Positioning alone is obviously the main indicator you knew to be in the right spot but moving towards the puck or trying to vs moving away from it or not moving at all if its going to head past you away from your body are other indicators we can use to differentiate an aware user vs one just sitting there or doing the wrong thing.

    And again, I don't think anything I have said through this thread contradicts anything. I definitely don't like short cuts of just turning up save reaction time as I believe that just makes sitting back on your goal line worse but we are 100 percent aligned on more responsive controls and being able to be quicker.

    I was actually talking today as a piece in between precision and t pushes were players could use L3 like skaters do to get a higher gear in precision. We have also talked about more responsive precision butterfly so that you have the control of precision but the blend outs that you have in non precision butterfly.

    There are also lots of edges cases in states and things where we try to gain wins each year in responsiveness and consistency in controls. Anything in there will always be good for having more control.
  • VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    If you want people to be more active in playing this position, then goalies need better movement options to keep up with the offense. We need to have access to better puck tracking and rotation to keep square to the puck. We need to redirect more shots we see safely into the corners instead of right in front of the net for a rebound goal. If forwards don't like that the puck goes over the boards so much, stop trying to go for the rebound cheese goals then. We need to have faster and smoother post hugging transitions. We need to be able to move post to post faster. We need to cover the puck faster.

    I would echo this 100% with my loudest voice. These are the problems....and I would only add that things should be consistent. ie, it is impossible to rely on many of the goalie movements because they are not consistent, primarily in speed. Ex....There are times when I need to pad stack, and the goalie does so in a quick fashion....other times its almost instant....and then other times its like he's 95 years old all of a sudden and can barely get down at all. Similar inconsistencies in speed for coming off the post, sliding across the crease, and most animations. If I have to pad stack, I want to have have confidence in the speed at which it occurs....instead I find myself hesitating with a "what if I get the 95 year old man animation" and perhaps I should try something else, and by then the play is over. The lack of consistency in these things is a core part of the frustration I feel because I feel like I'm guessing and hoping the whole time rather than relying on my own ability to react.
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    I was actually talking today as a piece in between precision and t pushes were players could use L3 like skaters do to get a higher gear in precision.

    Not a bad idea.

    I'd like to see more control in non-precision LS movement more than anything. Enough of this over-committed and unrealistic T-Push that often puts you out of position and you have to wait for the animation to finish before you can execute another move. If you must have this T-Push in the game, please make it a different control, like maybe Holding X/A and moving with LS. Main LS movement should be way smoother and have way more control.

  • HoodHoppers
    1486 posts Member
    NHLDev wrote: »
    I played a game intending on losing, yet trying my best to play the position similar to how a goalie would in real life. Now one problem with that is three things things: your goalie is way too slow to be doing this to react to lightning speed passes and one timers, trying to use post play will get you stuck and not able to move, and stopping breakaways realistically while backing up is just asking to get scored on because goalies don't react until after a shot is made (and also you're too slow).

    I knew I'd get lit up, but I do want to present to ea what it's like if you don't sit on your goal line and your team defense sucks. To skip the entire game you can go to the third video and towards the end it shows every goal that went in on me. Also, it's fun to show the few that also go through me as well. Sorry if you can hear the woman at home came upstairs after her workout and swear about saying it's way too hot upstairs in our house.







    ^Watch this video if you want to skip most of the nonsense. Halfway through I analyze each goal.

    @NHLDev

    Thanks for the videos. I get the perception is that if issues happen in the game that we somehow don't know about them or don't care about them. The reality is goalies are one of the toughest things to get right and we have plenty we can improve.

    When I respond to people and talk about theory it is to understand what they actually want, some seem to think it is that we think things are fine and don't want to improve -- it is just that there are often contradictions in amongst the feedback we get so that is where I ask more questions.

    Seeing the video, there are actually a lot of times that the early movement from your goalie is the auto facing and the movement towards the puck is actually coming quite late. So aside from being able to help with responsiveness and quicker movement, we can't really respond to a late request to move and that comes back to the game having to do more for goalies rather than just rewarding their input.

    At a high level we want all the things that all of you want. We want players to actively play the position and have the control where they can separate themselves form their peers. Quite a few of the goals you give up in these clips would probably still be goals if we continue to accomplish those things unless we took a lot of control away but there are also tons of pieces we can and want to improve.

    Another reason as to why I posted this video is to also show the distinct advantage that forwards have in this game that makes the goalie position completely irrelevant. I was hoping you'd touch on this subject.

    Even if you perfected goalies, gave us more speed and precision, etc. like you said half of those goals would go in anyways. This is true.

    But why is it true? Because as skaters, it's far easier to score on a manual goalie than it is to stop the puck as a manual goalie. Why? A few things. Passing speed is super fast. Puck reception reaction time is ungodly (that one timer goal that scored on me wouldn't happen in real life, it would have whiffed right through his legs), the lateral movements of the skater whether it be through deking with the puck or just skating laterally with the puck is ridiculously fast, and as a goalie there's no possible way we can keep up with these movements. Players can take the puck from one side of the net to the other side of the net in a split second, when it takes closer to a second for the goalies to do the same.

    I'm a firm believer with you that increasing save reaction times of the goalie isn't going to help the position. I actually think you could fix a lot of the issues with the position just by having proper balances on this game applied to forwards and defense.

    Forwards can do these unrealistically agile movements and be absolute wizards with the puck that'd make Datsyuk jealous. Defense can get caught flat footed and it doesn't matter. This whole game feels as if it's designed to make the game fun for everybody except for goaltenders. Forwards have a list of unrealistic nonsense that helps them score to get satisfaction out of the position (ridiculous speeds of deking and passing and skating, shooting from poor positions like having the puck in your feet or way out in front of you still yields good shots, you can sprint the entire game with very little consequence), defense gets a whole bunch of advantages as well (you can be caught flat footed and still recover easily because acceleration is absurd, playing the trap and having a team dump the puck in behind you doesn't put you at a disadvantage, you can spam stick lift til your heart's content, you can stand in front of the net and know that a puck isn't going to deflect off of you and past your goalie), but what do goaltenders get? We can make saves while sitting on our goal line sometimes.

    I just don't understand why this game refuses to even try the notion of true balance and as a player it's super frustrating to not see EA's agenda go this direction. It seems as if the game is just plagued by over compensation and it doesn't need to be. The ground work is there. I can play it offline.

    Just go watch the top teams play this game on twitch. I do believe that even tonight there's another 6s tourney going on for money if my memory serves me correctly. Every game is played the exact same way. Trap, try to find ways to the net and if it does, there's usually a 50% chance it's going in or go for point shots w/ deflections and/or garbage goals. Goalies don't move away from the line and pray their defense is on point. There's very little passing. 95% of dump ins are picked up by the defense. I watch these all of the time and you even have guys like NoSleeves tell you that he'd rather watch a hut or VS tourney because eashl at the top levels is just a defensive grind and it's not fun to watch. That's because there's so much overcompensation towards the skaters' positions that it becomes this way.

    Start there, then work on getting goalies' speednand precision back.
  • dr_shooter
    35 posts Member
    edited May 2020
    I've said basically that exact same thing to him numerous times over the last few months. I finally got tired of beating my head against the wall with goalie suggestions, so I said ok then if goalie isn't going to be improved, which we know it won't be, then meet us halfway and negate some of the advantages that forwards have.

    And I specifically asked for pass speed to be dropped; I actually described it to him the exact same way that you just did, saying lightning fast passes, as well as how easy it is to hit a one timer, which wouldn't happen in real life, he disagreed to both of those points, of course. Even though it's painfully obvious both of those things are huge advantages for forwards.

    Unfortunately, the lightning fast pass speed and ease of hitting one timers/cross creases will not be changed, that's a guarantee. There's no way they'd risk making the forwards mad by doing that. They'd much rather keep making the goalies mad, and keep their streak of about 10 years going strong.
  • HoodHoppers
    1486 posts Member
    dr_shooter wrote: »
    I've said basically that exact same thing to him numerous times over the last few months. I finally got tired of beating my head against the wall with goalie suggestions, so I said ok then if goalie isn't going to be improved, which we know it won't be, then meet us halfway and negate some of the advantages that forwards have.

    And I specifically asked for pass speed to be dropped; I actually described it to him the exact same way that you just did, saying lightning fast passes, as well as how easy it is to hit a one timer, which wouldn't happen in real life, he disagreed to both of those points, of course. Even though it's painfully obvious both of those things are huge advantages for forwards.

    Unfortunately, the lightning fast pass speed and ease of hitting one timers/cross creases will not be changed, that's a guarantee. There's no way they'd risk making the forwards mad by doing that. They'd much rather keep making the goalies mad, and keep their streak of about 10 years going strong.

    That's surprising to me because I remember him saying on the forums he's not a fan of the lightning fast passes and one timer abilities. I know for sure he thought passing speed was too high.
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    edited May 2020
    dr_shooter wrote: »
    I've said basically that exact same thing to him numerous times over the last few months. I finally got tired of beating my head against the wall with goalie suggestions, so I said ok then if goalie isn't going to be improved, which we know it won't be, then meet us halfway and negate some of the advantages that forwards have.

    And I specifically asked for pass speed to be dropped; I actually described it to him the exact same way that you just did, saying lightning fast passes, as well as how easy it is to hit a one timer, which wouldn't happen in real life, he disagreed to both of those points, of course. Even though it's painfully obvious both of those things are huge advantages for forwards.

    Unfortunately, the lightning fast pass speed and ease of hitting one timers/cross creases will not be changed, that's a guarantee. There's no way they'd risk making the forwards mad by doing that. They'd much rather keep making the goalies mad, and keep their streak of about 10 years going strong.

    That's surprising to me because I remember him saying on the forums he's not a fan of the lightning fast passes and one timer abilities. I know for sure he thought passing speed was too high.

    I don't believe I talked about pass speeds too much. I probably talked about pass reception ability (and one timer ability) in regards to pass speeds and angles though. We have had those tuned to various levels of error over the years and as you have said the models that we actually build that you are able to tune more offline vs how they are tuned for the default online game style show that we understand the capability models and they have room to push further towards full simulation.

    The thing is, people mostly complain when the game promotes selfish play and want to see a team based game. We aren't making passing and one timers better because forwards will be upset if we don't. Unfortunately, anything to deter from passing gives another excuse to not pass and try to puck hog which goes against the game that most people want to see promoted. People then say that it is because it is too easy to hang on to the puck but as you have said in 6s games, it is a defensive battle and these solo puck hogs aren't making it into the zone very often unless they do get the defense to open up, play more aggressively, string together some passes and/or play effective dump and chase. So it isn't about not wanting passes to be a slower minimum speed, as there isn't a bias one way or the other. The balance of stringing passes together may be tough for a goalie hung out to dry as you have called out but that arguably makes sense and it isn't really a stand out piece when balanced teams are playing against one another.

    We have seen it in the past with tuning in games like NHL 16 where people complained that players should be able to take and receive the passes they were missing and bobbling and asking why we deter people from a passing game. This year, it wasn't even as much that as it was just from trying to improve pickups in general because that was one of the biggest call outs from the community. I commented at those times around reaction times, balance and realism but we weren't getting past the 'seamless pickup' meme status so when we added the new system with the ability to accelerate and decelerate through pickups, we also looked at the consistency and responsiveness in them as well -- and since then have tuned interception ability and reaction time after puck loss to balance things out better and going forward, we can look back at general balance around receptions some more as well. But I don't necessarily agree that the one timers pulled off in the game you played are that far out of the question.

    We have also had people over the years saying that the powered up pass system is too much, that it should be touch sensitive so that you can make a hard pass right away without powering up at all. Those people feel passing is too slow. Again, I don't agree, just the we have seen points from both sides on it.

    It also isn't like the forwards in the competitive 6's environment are sitting there in their glory saying they have everything they want either. They all think deking is way too slow and that they lose the puck too much. They all vouch for shooting accuracy to be higher, stick on stick and stick on body contact to be turned off, for players to get shoved off the puck less and for interceptions to be turned down. I am not saying they are right as we obviously have countered and stuck to our tuning and reasons for it but there isn't a unanimous opinion that we are favoring forwards. Many times this also comes from defenders and goalies. It would be good for all of you to branch outside the forums and chat with people in leagues like LG or to players playing in the competitive 6's tournaments to get your voices heard and counter their current narrative around asking the game to go in the opposite direction you all feel it should go. It may be good for the community to chat about it rather than someone like myself playing the middle man as then it removes this supposed 'EA agenda' from it all.

    There are current threads on these forums saying that the skating is too slow and unresponsive as well. It would be good for each of you to chat with them in those threads as well to understand where each other are coming from. There are tons of opinions when it comes down to how the game should be tuned.

    As an example of a tweet that I was sent the other day but didn't get in on, just posting since its sort of relevant and just happened. Again I know you would stand up against these requests, just posting it to show that the mechanics are trying to make things realistic and that people are feeling the impacts of them from that other side as well.

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