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Let's talk Manual Goalie control!

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  • VeNOM2099
    3178 posts Member
    edited June 2020
    bryta47 wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    Like, I really wanted to play hockey. I'm dying to play some goaltender. I almost caved in and re-installed the game. And then I just watched THIS happen:

    https://clips.twitch.tv/BlueTsundereArmadilloSeemsGood

    https://clips.twitch.tv/FaintSillySoymilkJonCarnage

    This is why I can't play this game, this series anymore. Things like this have been happening for too long, and we've been reporting it for years. And still it happens. How can continue to happen like this?

    I'm just... Ugh!

    So that streamer guy actually made 2 saves the whole game and then let that joke of a goal in with 0.1 sec left in the 3rd to lose the game?

    Absolutely horrible. First be bored out of your mind - then get sucker punched in the gut. We have to be clear on this: EA NHL online is not hockey.

    It really baffles me how someone can defend this kind of gameplay.

    Edit: meant to quote your last post

    Let's be clear: HE didn't let the goal in; he pressed the trigger to make a save. The game just decided "yeah, I think opening my legs for a shot that's clearly going between my legs" was the correct animation to do there. On a shot from about 60 feet away, then lightly deflected when it reached 50 feet and the goalie had COMPLETE vision of the shot for at least 40 feet and then reacts only when the puck is 5 feet away with the WRONG save animation.

    But that's what it means to play at the "elite" level. I'd say 98% of the time, the goalie has no impact on a win or loss. Not even a little bit. It's about the team in front of you. And then something like that happens, and it costs you the game through no fault of the goalie's.

    It's so discouraging. :(

    Not just because of the outcome, but because these things have been going on for years now. And no matter how many times we cry out to the devs about it. No matter how many pics and videos we post about it, things continue down the same path.

    It makes us NOT want to look forward to the "next" game because it's probably just gonna be more of the same for us.
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    .
    Davanial wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    Like, I really wanted to play hockey. I'm dying to play some goaltender. I almost caved in and re-installed the game. And then I just watched THIS happen:

    https://clips.twitch.tv/BlueTsundereArmadilloSeemsGood

    https://clips.twitch.tv/FaintSillySoymilkJonCarnage

    This is why I can't play this game, this series anymore. Things like this have been happening for too long, and we've been reporting it for years. And still it happens. How can continue to happen like this?

    I'm just... Ugh!

    Can you explain what is wrong about that goal? Obviously that's not a goal any tendy would want to let in, but I mean more like why it happened. Did the player use the wrong save button, or is that just a dumb animation the player has no real control over? Why is the defender using a pass block there? I can envision the calculations the game might use to decide that save was more difficult than it should have been, ie; slight deflection, partial screen, possibly slow player reaction, etc.

    I don't have a problem with bad goals happening now and then, but I don't have an understanding from a goaltender's perspective.

    Because the game wants to reward "deflection" goals, just not in a realistic manner. Instead of the goalie reacting to the initial shot and just getting beat off of a late reaction, the goalie counters it with other stupid ways like intentionally opening up the 5 hole to allow a shot go into the net. I'm sure this isn't the design of it, but having played enough goalie you see this all of the time. Minor deflections cause goalies to move out of the way of pucks ALL of the time.

    Re: This happening due to rewarding deflection goals -- This isn't true. Goalies are late on deflections but if they were actually beat by the deflection on this goal, they would have dropped to cover the net for the original shot and just been late to the new redirected location. So in this case due to the slight deflection, it wouldn't have made a difference and they would have just been hit by the puck inches from where they expect. I also don't think the goalie would be that late on the deflection in a case like this from so far out by design. So that we don't lock User goalies in too early that were going to move, w wait longer to make saves -- which is maybe why it also looked late in this clip. We had cases earlier in the Beta where goalies were making saves too early on things like passes towards the net, etc. and made adjustments to allow for the user goalie to manually move.

    This particular goal is just a bug. I haven't had a chance to look into it further yet, but there is probably an error in the save cage for that particular save where rather than using that save for a shot down further to the goalies skate, it may be thinking it can be used for a shot closer to the top of the pad for some reason or has a misalignment on the frame it expects to make the save somehow.

    There will be cases where if the initial shot was going wider that a goalie will stretch out to that puck opening their 5 hole and can get beat if the puck is deflected back that way but that isn't the case with this clip as the goalie did wait to make a save on the puck that they saw.

    In this case, the user didn't press butterfly or anything, they just stood there and t was the auto save that was playing.

    So very bad bug/flaw in the save itself most likely but not something that was done by design.

  • HoodHoppers
    1486 posts Member
    The thing is that even if the accuracy is way off, why would the goalie go into that animation? It's nowhere close to being the proper animation occurring. It's literally the opposite of what it should do. Why wouldn't it just drop down. It has an opportunity to hit like 9 different pieces of the puck is slightly off in its estimation. The puck isn't even close to the right area it should be hitting.
  • HoodHoppers
    1486 posts Member
    The puck is about half a foot off from hitting the area it should hit (the pads). It's not slightly off, it's egregiously off.
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    The puck is about half a foot off from hitting the area it should hit (the pads). It's not slightly off, it's egregiously off.
    Agreed. When there is a bug or a flaw, it won't necessarily make sense and usually doesn't. Due to knowing how things work I can make sense of how it would go wrong but in terms of how it should behave in the real world of hockey, it will seem flawed and broken.

    If for some reason that save is tagged to allow any part of the pad to make the save as opposed to just out near the mid pad/toe, then it is only off by inches as it just misses the top of the pad.

    Should it be used in that way? No. We would expect to see more controlled and contained saves for a shot location like that and when you shoot the puck at the goalie thousands of times from that distance to that area you would probably see them make the save. In fact, I just went in to see if I could find that animation in a quick 1 on 0 session shooting and was unable to so far so sent it to our QV team to track down either in game or in the animation database itself.

    And as for why even if the whole pad is tagged to make the save that it would miss the pad? Well, we don't actually tag the pad, we have regions on the expected frame of the animation where and how the save is expected to be made. So since this wouldn't be intended on this type of save at the top of the pad at all anyways, it may just be the wrong placement and frame completely and it is repro cases like this that help us track down those bugs/errors.
  • VeNOM2099
    3178 posts Member
    edited June 2020
    NHLDev wrote: »
    .
    In this case, the user didn't press butterfly or anything, they just stood there and t was the auto save that was playing.

    So very bad bug/flaw in the save itself most likely but not something that was done by design.

    I've been watching TheCreasePolice for a few years now, and even though I don't like that he plays the position as per how the game wants him to play rather than how a goalie is SUPPOSED to play, he has good enough reactions, especially from that far, to make a manual save attempt. If the shot had come from much closer, I would've been in complete agreement with you that he might not have reacted in time to make a manual save.

    The other factor is that it's happened to me more than a few times (which I've talked to you about before and shown videos of it), where I squeezed the trigger (I have the Elite Controller with hair triggers switched on) and nothing. In fact to me it looks like the goalie engine gets stuck trying to decide WHAT save animation to make, but it doesn't have the animation to make the correct save in its repertoire and gets confused. Then at the last moment it just picks from the closest possible solution which might not be the correct one. I've also asked if goalies could get access to inputs on replays so we can study what we're doing and use it as a tool to improve. Every other competitive game let's you see what you're doing so you can better train yourself and improve. EA's NHL is one of the very few games that still lacks this feature, except for the puck carrier who gets to see his.

    Also, the thing about goalies complaining about early reactions to shots/passes wasn't that it attempted a save, but that when it did the attempt it would lock us in for the entire animation without the ability to cancel out and make another animation. It wasn't too bad when it was a quick butterfly/blocking animation which recovered quickly. But if your goalie reacted with a huge sprawling save, good luck trying to get back in position to make a 2nd save attempt in time. One of the things that EA's NHL has lagged behind with goalies is the ability to blend into saves from multiple positions that are NOT standing up.

    The goalie always has to reset back to default stance in order to make another save, when in reality goalies can make one save and chain it into anther from THAT position without having to get back up.
  • Talongore
    45 posts Member
    edited June 2020
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    .One of the things that EA's NHL has lagged behind with goalies is the ability to blend into saves from multiple positions that are NOT standing up.

    The goalie always has to reset back to default stance in order to make another save, when in reality goalies can make one save and chain it into anther from THAT position without having to get back up.

    Agree here. It would seem the CPU goalies can certainly do these fluid motions. Ex, they are often gods with simple pokechecks, while being able to recover for various other saves if the pokecheck misses. For human goalie....its just a gamble bc if you miss the pokecheck, you're toast. In most cases, the pokecheck is a tool I no longer even attempt for that reason...all because of this "reset back to default stance in order to make another save".
  • HoodHoppers
    1486 posts Member
    edited June 2020
    Friendly reminder that goalies still suck.

    Goalie tried to play the puck, goes right through his legs.

  • NHLDev wrote: »

    "What is the main piece you are missing from the new control layout? The alternate control scheme was created to give people the controls they had in the old system."

    Well I'm so glad you asked sir! :smile: I'm not sure if it was done on purpose or just overlooked.. but when you select the alternate controller scheme, there were a few controls that weren't the same:

    6itbh9gqeybe.jpg

    The pull/replace goalie isn't a big deal I don't think, even though there wasn't really a need to change it was there? But the saves (Diving poke, stack pad, spread V, desperation save) those are way different. Please revert back! And now that I look at this, I think I know why I could never cover the puck with pressing Triangle/Y. You have to HOLD Triangle/Y now! Ummmm why? So the forward has that extra second to score? Come on guys lol Common sense again. Should not have to hold it, the goalie has to be fast.

    You never really addressed the controls, will the proper full old control layout be revised/fixed for next years game?
  • VeNOM2099
    3178 posts Member

    "That's good, Snake! I remember that Pain! HURT ME MOOOORE!!!"
  • I love playing goalie! Same game!!!





    ^what happened to hugging the post being not completely useless @NHLDev
  • The ai goalies have twice the movement speed. You want to see how op ai goalies are in comparison to manual goalies? Try nearly stopping this one with a manual goalie. Just look at the extreme speed these ai goalies have. Why would anybody in their right minds want to play a drop in with a manual goalie when you can have these gods? He nearly gets this. Unreal.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/EA_NHL/comments/h0busn/a_series_of_unfortunate_events/

    "Can we get more speed for goalies?"

    "Absolutely. We listen. Here's proof!"
  • VeNOM2099
    3178 posts Member
    I love playing goalie! Same game!!!





    ^what happened to hugging the post being not completely useless @NHLDev

    LOL!

    And people keep messaging me wanting to play G for them. LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLOLOLOLOL!!! I literally got like 10 message this past week (LG Summer season started) from people I played with wanting me to goaltend for them.

    No thanks. I'm good, Fam! I'm NEVER, EVER, EVER going to install another EA NHL game on my console for as long as I live (aside from maybe the BETAs). The goaltending is BAD. There's no reason to play human goalie. At all. It's just bad. Please go back to NHL 16 and remove human goalies from the game, EA. It'd probably be for the best.
  • barrett098
    428 posts Member
    edited June 2020
    NHLDev wrote: »
    .
    Davanial wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    Like, I really wanted to play hockey. I'm dying to play some goaltender. I almost caved in and re-installed the game. And then I just watched THIS happen:

    https://clips.twitch.tv/BlueTsundereArmadilloSeemsGood

    https://clips.twitch.tv/FaintSillySoymilkJonCarnage

    This is why I can't play this game, this series anymore. Things like this have been happening for too long, and we've been reporting it for years. And still it happens. How can continue to happen like this?

    I'm just... Ugh!

    Can you explain what is wrong about that goal? Obviously that's not a goal any tendy would want to let in, but I mean more like why it happened. Did the player use the wrong save button, or is that just a dumb animation the player has no real control over? Why is the defender using a pass block there? I can envision the calculations the game might use to decide that save was more difficult than it should have been, ie; slight deflection, partial screen, possibly slow player reaction, etc.

    I don't have a problem with bad goals happening now and then, but I don't have an understanding from a goaltender's perspective.

    Because the game wants to reward "deflection" goals, just not in a realistic manner. Instead of the goalie reacting to the initial shot and just getting beat off of a late reaction, the goalie counters it with other stupid ways like intentionally opening up the 5 hole to allow a shot go into the net. I'm sure this isn't the design of it, but having played enough goalie you see this all of the time. Minor deflections cause goalies to move out of the way of pucks ALL of the time.

    Re: This happening due to rewarding deflection goals -- This isn't true. Goalies are late on deflections but if they were actually beat by the deflection on this goal, they would have dropped to cover the net for the original shot and just been late to the new redirected location. So in this case due to the slight deflection, it wouldn't have made a difference and they would have just been hit by the puck inches from where they expect. I also don't think the goalie would be that late on the deflection in a case like this from so far out by design. So that we don't lock User goalies in too early that were going to move, w wait longer to make saves -- which is maybe why it also looked late in this clip. We had cases earlier in the Beta where goalies were making saves too early on things like passes towards the net, etc. and made adjustments to allow for the user goalie to manually move.

    This particular goal is just a bug. I haven't had a chance to look into it further yet, but there is probably an error in the save cage for that particular save where rather than using that save for a shot down further to the goalies skate, it may be thinking it can be used for a shot closer to the top of the pad for some reason or has a misalignment on the frame it expects to make the save somehow.

    There will be cases where if the initial shot was going wider that a goalie will stretch out to that puck opening their 5 hole and can get beat if the puck is deflected back that way but that isn't the case with this clip as the goalie did wait to make a save on the puck that they saw.

    In this case, the user didn't press butterfly or anything, they just stood there and t was the auto save that was playing.

    So very bad bug/flaw in the save itself most likely but not something that was done by design.

    Why didn't you patch it then? Games been around for almost 7-8 months now. Why don't you just patch it or you guys delay that on purpose to next game so can say new and improved g mechanics...but along with that there will more bugs that wont be patched till the next game. its a cycle..wish yearly titles weren't a thing.

  • barrett098 wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    .
    Davanial wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    Like, I really wanted to play hockey. I'm dying to play some goaltender. I almost caved in and re-installed the game. And then I just watched THIS happen:

    https://clips.twitch.tv/BlueTsundereArmadilloSeemsGood

    https://clips.twitch.tv/FaintSillySoymilkJonCarnage

    This is why I can't play this game, this series anymore. Things like this have been happening for too long, and we've been reporting it for years. And still it happens. How can continue to happen like this?

    I'm just... Ugh!

    Can you explain what is wrong about that goal? Obviously that's not a goal any tendy would want to let in, but I mean more like why it happened. Did the player use the wrong save button, or is that just a dumb animation the player has no real control over? Why is the defender using a pass block there? I can envision the calculations the game might use to decide that save was more difficult than it should have been, ie; slight deflection, partial screen, possibly slow player reaction, etc.

    I don't have a problem with bad goals happening now and then, but I don't have an understanding from a goaltender's perspective.

    Because the game wants to reward "deflection" goals, just not in a realistic manner. Instead of the goalie reacting to the initial shot and just getting beat off of a late reaction, the goalie counters it with other stupid ways like intentionally opening up the 5 hole to allow a shot go into the net. I'm sure this isn't the design of it, but having played enough goalie you see this all of the time. Minor deflections cause goalies to move out of the way of pucks ALL of the time.

    Re: This happening due to rewarding deflection goals -- This isn't true. Goalies are late on deflections but if they were actually beat by the deflection on this goal, they would have dropped to cover the net for the original shot and just been late to the new redirected location. So in this case due to the slight deflection, it wouldn't have made a difference and they would have just been hit by the puck inches from where they expect. I also don't think the goalie would be that late on the deflection in a case like this from so far out by design. So that we don't lock User goalies in too early that were going to move, w wait longer to make saves -- which is maybe why it also looked late in this clip. We had cases earlier in the Beta where goalies were making saves too early on things like passes towards the net, etc. and made adjustments to allow for the user goalie to manually move.

    This particular goal is just a bug. I haven't had a chance to look into it further yet, but there is probably an error in the save cage for that particular save where rather than using that save for a shot down further to the goalies skate, it may be thinking it can be used for a shot closer to the top of the pad for some reason or has a misalignment on the frame it expects to make the save somehow.

    There will be cases where if the initial shot was going wider that a goalie will stretch out to that puck opening their 5 hole and can get beat if the puck is deflected back that way but that isn't the case with this clip as the goalie did wait to make a save on the puck that they saw.

    In this case, the user didn't press butterfly or anything, they just stood there and t was the auto save that was playing.

    So very bad bug/flaw in the save itself most likely but not something that was done by design.

    Why didn't you patch it then? Games been around for almost 7-8 months now. Why don't you just patch it or you guys delay that on purpose to next game so can say new and improved g mechanics...but along with that there will more bugs that wont be patched till the next game. its a cycle..wish yearly titles weren't a thing.

    My guess is time and budget. This game has to be pumped out every year so they have deadlines to meet. If it's not COMPLETELY game breaking then they wont spend much time on bug fixes for the current game.
    Yes they should break the cycle. Maybe go every 2 years, with patches and upgrades/updates every 3-4 months or so. New gen consoles launch this year so it's a perfect time to start!
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    barrett098 wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    .
    Davanial wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    Like, I really wanted to play hockey. I'm dying to play some goaltender. I almost caved in and re-installed the game. And then I just watched THIS happen:

    https://clips.twitch.tv/BlueTsundereArmadilloSeemsGood

    https://clips.twitch.tv/FaintSillySoymilkJonCarnage

    This is why I can't play this game, this series anymore. Things like this have been happening for too long, and we've been reporting it for years. And still it happens. How can continue to happen like this?

    I'm just... Ugh!

    Can you explain what is wrong about that goal? Obviously that's not a goal any tendy would want to let in, but I mean more like why it happened. Did the player use the wrong save button, or is that just a dumb animation the player has no real control over? Why is the defender using a pass block there? I can envision the calculations the game might use to decide that save was more difficult than it should have been, ie; slight deflection, partial screen, possibly slow player reaction, etc.

    I don't have a problem with bad goals happening now and then, but I don't have an understanding from a goaltender's perspective.

    Because the game wants to reward "deflection" goals, just not in a realistic manner. Instead of the goalie reacting to the initial shot and just getting beat off of a late reaction, the goalie counters it with other stupid ways like intentionally opening up the 5 hole to allow a shot go into the net. I'm sure this isn't the design of it, but having played enough goalie you see this all of the time. Minor deflections cause goalies to move out of the way of pucks ALL of the time.

    Re: This happening due to rewarding deflection goals -- This isn't true. Goalies are late on deflections but if they were actually beat by the deflection on this goal, they would have dropped to cover the net for the original shot and just been late to the new redirected location. So in this case due to the slight deflection, it wouldn't have made a difference and they would have just been hit by the puck inches from where they expect. I also don't think the goalie would be that late on the deflection in a case like this from so far out by design. So that we don't lock User goalies in too early that were going to move, w wait longer to make saves -- which is maybe why it also looked late in this clip. We had cases earlier in the Beta where goalies were making saves too early on things like passes towards the net, etc. and made adjustments to allow for the user goalie to manually move.

    This particular goal is just a bug. I haven't had a chance to look into it further yet, but there is probably an error in the save cage for that particular save where rather than using that save for a shot down further to the goalies skate, it may be thinking it can be used for a shot closer to the top of the pad for some reason or has a misalignment on the frame it expects to make the save somehow.

    There will be cases where if the initial shot was going wider that a goalie will stretch out to that puck opening their 5 hole and can get beat if the puck is deflected back that way but that isn't the case with this clip as the goalie did wait to make a save on the puck that they saw.

    In this case, the user didn't press butterfly or anything, they just stood there and t was the auto save that was playing.

    So very bad bug/flaw in the save itself most likely but not something that was done by design.

    Why didn't you patch it then? Games been around for almost 7-8 months now. Why don't you just patch it or you guys delay that on purpose to next game so can say new and improved g mechanics...but along with that there will more bugs that wont be patched till the next game. its a cycle..wish yearly titles weren't a thing.

    It seems from your response that you feel that I wrote that in such a way that I have known about it before seeing the video. I was responding to the comment that it was done by design to reward deflections and saying that as far as I am concerned, although goalies can be late to re-react to a deflection, that wasn't the case in this scenario.

    But to fix an issue or see what is wrong, we have to either recreate the scenario and issue in a debug build so that we can test changes against that same issue to see if it improves the outcome. Or in some cases, we could make a best guess as to what it is, such as the save cage I mentioned and try to go through our databases on the animation side to look into the animations we think it was that played without seeing the actual animation names like we would in a debug build and see if anything stands out as more obvious in the asset itself. So that was where I was saying I hadn't had a chance to look into it yet because I had just seen the video.

    After I saw it, I responded on here and sent it to our QV team, engineers and animators to take a look.
  • barrett098
    428 posts Member
    edited June 2020
    Tbh that "bug" is not even a rare occurrence. Its not really common, but its not rare either...you will see it more than enough times if you play G enough. Those weird deflection animation goalies into or weird animations on other shots as well where goalie kinda spazzes out and bring legs in and kicks out legs alove with glove on far side shots (even when you are already set in for the shot and not moving while shot is coming). I kinda stopped sending in video bc seems like it just a waste of time lol
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    barrett098 wrote: »
    Tbh that "bug" is not even a rare occurrence. Its not really common, but its not rare either...you will see it more than enough times if you play G enough. Those weird deflection animation goalies into or weird animations on other shots as well where goalie kinda spazzes out and bring legs in and kicks out legs alove with glove on far side shots (even when you are already set in for the shot and not moving while shot is coming). I kinda stopped sending in video bc seems like it just a waste of time lol

    All good. You don't need to send any videos. It is usually just to ensure we are all on the same page and/or for very rare bugs.
  • Every year I spend money on this game. And here is what I still get as a result:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcWogRJFMd8
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