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Let's Talk: AIs in World of Chel

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  • ShareFactory/Upload to youtube on PS4, Xbox should have a direct to youtube ability of some sort
  • EA_Aljo
    3213 posts EA Community Manager
    Poman33 wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »

    You didn't get a response because we're not here 24/7. Apologies for taking a couple days to get back to you. As far as your issue goes, I can assure you there's nothing built into the game that singles out your team and forces your AI players to not play well. If you want to get us some video of a full period so we can see what's happening, that would help understand what's going on.

    It's not just the couple days for a response, it's the YEARS we have been trying to get an answer on why this happens. There has to be something. The game is nearly unplayable for us. All our opponents do is cherry pick while their CPU player plays incredible defense then scurries down the ice to be in perfect position for them to pass to him for a score while our CPU skates backwards with a smile. It's obviously not just us, there's posters in this thread and others throughout the years with the same issue. It has never been resolved. It's been really bad the last several times we attempted to play. I don't even know how to record a period of play. Advice on how to do that?

    This has been discussed for many years now and we've released statements on this in the past. No matter how many times, in all of our sports games, we say it doesn't exist, people still believe it does. The game does not have extremely advanced AI that scripts wins because it thinks one side is going to quit playing if they lose.

    As far as how to record a period of play, those instructions are available online by doing a search for game DVR and Xbox/PS4. It would be good to see where people feel the DDA is kicking in and forcing the outcome no matter what inputs you hit on your controller.
  • EA_Aljo wrote: »

    This has been discussed for many years now and we've released statements on this in the past. No matter how many times, in all of our sports games, we say it doesn't exist, people still believe it does. The game does not have extremely advanced AI that scripts wins because it thinks one side is going to quit playing if they lose.

    I don't know what DDA is and I'm not talking about something "kicking in". As I said, from the moment the puck is dropped till the end of the game, the opponents CPU player, regardless of position, is a hall of famer and by far the best player on the ice. You can't say what we experience doesn't exist, it's all we talk about during every game, we laugh as our CPU bumbles his way along, laugh even harder as our opponents cherry pick and allow their CPU player to play perfect defense by himself then fire a beautiful pass up the ice for a 2 on 1 where they make a cross crease pass that goes through our CPU's legs for a score. Rinse, Wash, Repeat. EVERY GAME. Sounds to me like you've already made up your mind, and aren't really listening to what we are saying here. It's not ice tilt or whatever DDA is, it's a CLEAR discrepancy in how our Ai plays vs their Ai every moment of every game. Their CPU will run up and take the puck from me like taking candy from a baby, or intercept a pass he's not looking or should be out of his reach, while ours skates backwards, doesn't check, doesn't intercept passes, and upon picking up loose pucks proceeds to pass it directly to our opposition.

  • EA_Aljo
    3213 posts EA Community Manager
    Poman33 wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »

    This has been discussed for many years now and we've released statements on this in the past. No matter how many times, in all of our sports games, we say it doesn't exist, people still believe it does. The game does not have extremely advanced AI that scripts wins because it thinks one side is going to quit playing if they lose.

    I don't know what DDA is and I'm not talking about something "kicking in". As I said, from the moment the puck is dropped till the end of the game, the opponents CPU player, regardless of position, is a hall of famer and by far the best player on the ice. You can't say what we experience doesn't exist, it's all we talk about during every game, we laugh as our CPU bumbles his way along, laugh even harder as our opponents cherry pick and allow their CPU player to play perfect defense by himself then fire a beautiful pass up the ice for a 2 on 1 where they make a cross crease pass that goes through our CPU's legs for a score. Rinse, Wash, Repeat. EVERY GAME. Sounds to me like you've already made up your mind, and aren't really listening to what we are saying here. It's not ice tilt or whatever DDA is, it's a CLEAR discrepancy in how our Ai plays vs their Ai every moment of every game. Their CPU will run up and take the puck from me like taking candy from a baby, or intercept a pass he's not looking or should be out of his reach, while ours skates backwards, doesn't check, doesn't intercept passes, and upon picking up loose pucks proceeds to pass it directly to our opposition.

    What you're describing is what people commonly refer to as ice tilt or DDA (Dynamic Difficulty Adjustment). Neither exist within the NHL games. Your AI players are responding to how the humans are playing, the strategies that are set, their ability ratings and energy. If you're opponent's AI players are playing better than yours, chances are good the humans are playing their positions well. If the human controlled players are frequently out of position, this will cause the AI to adjust and cover the open ice. This means they aren't in the best position to make and receive good passes and they won't be able to cover opposing players as well. I'm not saying the AI are perfect, but they have the same abilities and behaviors as your opponents. Your opponents may be using better strategies and may be staying in position better which helps keep your AI players in position as well.
  • Perhaps you could define what the 'better strategies' are, so everyone can use those.
  • Davanial wrote: »
    Perhaps you could define what the 'better strategies' are, so everyone can use those.

    Strategies are just a game of rock-paper-scissors; I don't think their is any definitive best one to use (though most teams enjoy a more aggressive approach).

    The biggest problem with ai ties in perfectly to what Aljo said about trying to cover for the human players. They are too dumb to anticipate plays and see that other humans will take advantage and their single, ONLY goal is to cover the spot you left.

    My team only has 2 human players most of the time, we are FORCED to do everything out there and that means moving ever so slightly out of position. If we just planted ourselves, it allows the other team to dance around us and it makes for an excruciatingly slow, boring, and unfun game. Give us better control of our ai via set plays and or/placement tools and we'll be happy
  • Aijo just said there are better strategies.

    I've only played about 100 games of drop in. The AI play like AI for the most part, as far as I can tell. The CPU defenceman Slater seems to stand out in comparison to the others. But that could be due to having to face Slater in roughly 70 games where the opposing team required a CPU D. For whatever reason that particular CPU has only played on my team once.
  • EA_Aljo wrote: »
    What you're describing is what people commonly refer to as ice tilt or DDA (Dynamic Difficulty Adjustment). Neither exist within the NHL games. Your AI players are responding to how the humans are playing, the strategies that are set, their ability ratings and energy. If you're opponent's AI players are playing better than yours, chances are good the humans are playing their positions well. If the human controlled players are frequently out of position, this will cause the AI to adjust and cover the open ice. This means they aren't in the best position to make and receive good passes and they won't be able to cover opposing players as well. I'm not saying the AI are perfect, but they have the same abilities and behaviors as your opponents. Your opponents may be using better strategies and may be staying in position better which helps keep your AI players in position as well.

    I'm talking about the exact opposite of what you are saying. When we're on offense, frequently our opposing players will cherry pick, and their Ai will play all of their D for them, even if the Ai happens to be a C or W. When we're dropping back on D, for instance if I'm in front of their player as he comes down the boards across their blue line, our Ai will run full speed, usually hitting me in the back, to cover the guy I'm already covering, leaving the ice wide open. He NEVER covers the open ice, he just gets in our way. We can be double teaming a guy on the boards and he will run over to "help" leaving all the rest of the ice wide open. All he does is run full speed at the guy with the puck(mind you, he does nothing after he gets there) regardless of circumstances or what I have the strategies set at. If I can figure out a way to record gameplay, I will, but you are not getting the essence of what I'm saying happens EVERY single game from start to finish. It's not an adjustment in-game, it's from puck drop to the final whistle the opposing Ai is ALWAYS the best player on the ice. I wish the end game stats would include the CPU players so I could screenshot the difference in takeaways, giveaways, hits, and points vs our Ai.
  • TTZ_Dipsy wrote: »
    The biggest problem with ai ties in perfectly to what Aljo said about trying to cover for the human players. They are too dumb to anticipate plays and see that other humans will take advantage and their single, ONLY goal is to cover the spot you left.

    I wish that was the case for us. Our CPU D doesn't cover for anything. He runs full speed at whoever has the puck, regardless of it I'm covering the guy already, or my teammate is covering the guy, or if we're both covering the guy. He just charges over, usually hits one of us in the back and makes us stumble, and leaves the rest of the ice wide open. I would LOVE if our CPU only ever covered the spots one of us left, it would be a huge improvement vs him sabotaging us at every turn.
  • EA_Aljo
    3213 posts EA Community Manager
    Davanial wrote: »
    Aijo just said there are better strategies.

    I've only played about 100 games of drop in. The AI play like AI for the most part, as far as I can tell. The CPU defenceman Slater seems to stand out in comparison to the others. But that could be due to having to face Slater in roughly 70 games where the opposing team required a CPU D. For whatever reason that particular CPU has only played on my team once.

    When I say better strategies, I mean they are using a combination of setting strategies that counter how your team is playing as well as learning from how you play and build a strategy around that. For example, when my team recognizes our opponents mainly go for short side shots, we cover the circles. When they go for rebounds, we collapse more. This comes in to play with which strategies to set as well. If your opponents pass and cycle, contain puck will help cover those lanes better. Using the high pressure defense strategy can help cause turnovers, but also leave some open ice since defense is more aggressive.

    How the humans are playing makes the biggest difference though. I usually start out setting aggressive defense and forecheck. I most always play defense so I'm always there to back up my AI D partner. If I'm playing as a forward, I choose center and act as a 3rd defender. If you're losing a high amount of games and feel it's because the AI aren't performing well enough, try to keep an eye on your own performance and stay in position better. Also, be mindful of always calling for the puck. Let your goalie cover it now and then as that will help regain some energy. Speaking of, make sure you're gliding to help recover from being in the red. Hustling all game long is going to kill your energy and lower your attributes.
  • The AI are garbage! They're really inconsistent. It is extremely annoying playing against god-like bots and having peewee leveled bots on my team. There have been too many times that I've been in a 5-5 and completely dominating, then someone on their team leaves and that bot takes over the game. Inconsistency ruins games.
  • TTZ_Dipsy
    518 posts Member
    edited September 2020
    I don't mind being proven wrong but I really think most people who complain about god bots are the ones who keep trying the same moves over and over. (well, that and thr obvious fact they play more 5v5/6v6 games).

    They (cpu) aren't good; they are a hot tire fire of awfulness.

    Bots haven't kept the stats of a dropped human for a few years now iirc; they should be reverting to a 70something OVR two-way build.

    The reason why a bot in a 5v5 game makes an impact is because humans should be playing with proper builds and planting themselves in proper position - when they just clog the game up and don't do anything, the cpu appears to go super saiyan. They aren't playing godly, they are just going about things normally.

    When you play 2v2 or whatever, the game goes absolutely haywire and the cpu tries to do wayyyyy too much. I never denied there being a direct link to human error but there is a massive difference between what a cpu considers "error" and how a human knows what needs to be done -- let the human worry about getting back into position; the bots don't need to cover us...
    Post edited by TTZ_Dipsy on
  • The bot defenders are a base TWD so we know what their speed and acceleration stats are. It is really annoying when a bot D can close a gap on a small speedy forward. We know that the FWD has better speed stats but the bot magically can catch-up or out skate them. So is the bot a base TWD or is something else dictating their stats? Like I said before, inconsistency ruins games.
    In my opinion, if you're playing 6v6 clubs your team needs a minimum of 4 players. The majority of your team should not be bots. Coincidentally, the threshold for players backing out should be reflective of this player minimum.
  • The bot defenders are a base TWD so we know what their speed and acceleration stats are. It is really annoying when a bot D can close a gap on a small speedy forward. We know that the FWD has better speed stats but the bot magically can catch-up or out skate them. So is the bot a base TWD or is something else dictating their stats? Like I said before, inconsistency ruins games.
    In my opinion, if you're playing 6v6 clubs your team needs a minimum of 4 players. The majority of your team should not be bots. Coincidentally, the threshold for players backing out should be reflective of this player minimum.

    Sega has mentioned this many times and I believe him to be correct...the speed in this game is way too high. Couple that with "hustle" that never seems to end, you can always get back into the play when you have no business being in it.

    Last night I whiffed on a one timer (in real hockey, and it was embarrassing) stepping into the play to make it a 3 on 2 and the opposition went back 2 on 1 and scored. All of us who engaged the play and turned it over were out of the play and could not get back. There was no magic hustle. I am a good, fast skater and no amount of will or "hustle" could help me recover from my error.

    This is what EA does not get. The "hustle" mechanic ruins so much.
  • TTZ_Dipsy
    518 posts Member
    edited September 2020
    Hustle isn't the issue, it's stamina regeneration that causes everything to be unbalanced. They removed marathon man for 21 but you still gain your energy back pretty fast. You apparently fatigue more and more (ie, less maximum stamina) throughout the game, but it would be nice if that was reflected more on screen. That said, the artificial and instant comeback for cpu players is complete **** and needs to be removed.

    6v6, regardless of the number of human players, functions way better than 3's.
    I'd stick to 3v3 and let you and your buddies fill all spots if I could Chem, but I think we can all agree 3v3 mode is garbage when the ai is built around 6v6, penalties are completely random and affect the outcome way too much, and the team still hasn't implemented any anti-griefing measures (ragging, exploiting trips etc.).

    I welcome human teams only because they never really seem to gel in my eyes but in the end, those teams that want to play more humans need new matchmaking presets that make it impossible for them to go against teams of 2 or 3 - Playing with and against bots is no fun but not getting a game going because everyone keeps quitting out is even worse...

    6's or 3's, most problems can be traced back to something or other in the AI; I don't require radical changes to be happy, I'd just like them to chill out and just worry about themselves rather than constantly worry about trying to cover the humans over nothing (so maybe I do expect a miracle in the end?)
    Post edited by TTZ_Dipsy on
  • TTZ_Dipsy wrote: »
    Hustle isn't the issue, it's stamina regeneration that causes everything to be unbalanced. They removed marathon man for 21 but you still gain your energy back pretty fast. You apparently fatigue more and more (ie, less maximum stamina) throughout the game, but it would be nice if that was reflected more on screen. That said, the artificial and instant comeback for cpu players is complete **** and needs to be removed.

    6v6, regardless of the number of human players, functions way better than 3's.
    I'd stick to 3v3 and let you and your buddies fill all spots if I could Chem, but I think we can all agree 3v3 mode is garbage when the ai is built around 6v6, penalties are completely random and affect the outcome way too much, and the team still hasn't implemented any anti-griefing measures (ragging, exploiting trips etc.).

    I welcome human teams only because they can never seem to work together and it's an easy W but in the end, those teams that want to play more humans need new matchmaking presets that make it impossible for them to go against teams of 2 or 3 - Playing with and against bots is no fun but not getting a game going because everyone keeps quitting out is even worse...

    3v3 is nice for playing by yourself but when it comes to hockey... ya know the H in NHL... I'd prefer 6v6 every time. If I were in charge (clearly I'm not) I'd get rid of Ones, Threes, 3v3 and outdoor rinks. I would go back to how it used to be. Sticks with flexes and curve options. I've said this before but the way that FIFA has done their version of EASHL allows for much more customization for play styles. Put the points into perks that you want.

    Slightly derailed but it appears with both agree that the current AI system is ****.
  • TTZ_Dipsy
    518 posts Member
    edited September 2020
    Gonna link these again just to really make sure that horse is long dead.


  • TTZ_Dipsy wrote: »
    Gonna link these again just to really make sure that horse is long dead.

    oof
    Dad. Gamer. Rocker. Geek.
  • One thing I've noticed with the bots in EASHL is that if you're the away team they are preset to be super passive. They are set to defend lead for their breakout, 1-3-1 for their neutral zone play and then protect net for defensive aggression. The home team's bots are in turn normal, 1-2-2 and normal for those settings. My club has a standard setting for when we have a FWD bot and another for a DEF bot. It aligns more with our play style and sometimes the bot pretends to be competent.
    Side note: it would be nice to have the option to set strategies before loading into the game.
  • EA_Aljo wrote: »
    If you're losing a high amount of games and feel it's because the AI aren't performing well enough, try to keep an eye on your own performance and stay in position better. Also, be mindful of always calling for the puck. Let your goalie cover it now and then as that will help regain some energy. Speaking of, make sure you're gliding to help recover from being in the red. Hustling all game long is going to kill your energy and lower your attributes.


    Bingo. I've said for years - A.I. decisions are based somewhat on what the human controlled players are doing.

    If you're driving players out of position, running them until they're tired, etc etc - you're going to get ****-poor A.I. decisions too.
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