Something we've had a lot of feedback on here is making the game more sim and having less automated actions so that personal skill is more important. It would seem having interceptions be less automated would align with that. Would you guys rather defense be more manual and dependent on skill or would you rather have interceptions be more automated and just need you to be in the passing lane?
What kind of skill other than being in the right positions do you want the defense to do with pass interceptions, Aljo? Please don't tell me poke checking or using the DSS. That's not intercepting the puck, that's just swiping it away.
I get what you're saying. I was just trying to get some feedback on the sim side of things as people here have been asking for more the game to require more manual input over automation. I know the dev team is aware of the complaints about interceptions so it's possible this could be adjusted in a future update. We'll have to wait and see if that happens.
Something we've had a lot of feedback on here is making the game more sim and having less automated actions so that personal skill is more important. It would seem having interceptions be less automated would align with that. Would you guys rather defense be more manual and dependent on skill or would you rather have interceptions be more automated and just need you to be in the passing lane?
I can get behind a more manual way of intercepting/breaking up passes. The current "get in position and pray" model is frustrating at best, and has only been made more so this year.
My caveat is that whatever form the mechanic takes( right stick, button press, etc ), it should be at the same level of difficulty to pull off as one-timers are for offense. If one-timers can be done by just flicking up the right stick as the puck is coming then breaking up the pass should be just as easy.
Something we've had a lot of feedback on here is making the game more sim and having less automated actions so that personal skill is more important. It would seem having interceptions be less automated would align with that. Would you guys rather defense be more manual and dependent on skill or would you rather have interceptions be more automated and just need you to be in the passing lane?
What kind of skill other than being in the right positions do you want the defense to do with pass interceptions, Aljo? Please don't tell me poke checking or using the DSS. That's not intercepting the puck, that's just swiping it away.
I get what you're saying. I was just trying to get some feedback on the sim side of things as people here have been asking for more the game to require more manual input over automation. I know the dev team is aware of the complaints about interceptions so it's possible this could be adjusted in a future update. We'll have to wait and see if that happens.
I get you. I wouldn't mind more manual inputs at all, Aljo. My whole shtick is balance and fairness. If you're going to manual the D, then you have to do the same thing for the forwards. Less accurate passes on the backhand, less automatic perfect receptions of fast passes, less success of dekes in traffics, less success of dekes in succession, less automatic micro-puck battles, less puck magnet and more randomness. These are some of the things that levels the playing field and will build more of a skill gap for both offense and defense. This game has been tilted with so much offense that it feels less like a sim and more like a speedy arcade game like in the N54 Wayne Gretzky hockey days.
Would you guys rather defense be more manual and dependent on skill or would you rather have interceptions be more automated and just need you to be in the passing lane?
I would sincerely hope the answer to this question is obvious.
That being said, I understand EA wants balance, and not everyone who picks this game up wants the burden of being responsible for every single element of defending.
Something we've had a lot of feedback on here is making the game more sim and having less automated actions so that personal skill is more important. It would seem having interceptions be less automated would align with that. Would you guys rather defense be more manual and dependent on skill or would you rather have interceptions be more automated and just need you to be in the passing lane?
What kind of skill other than being in the right positions do you want the defense to do with pass interceptions, Aljo? Please don't tell me poke checking or using the DSS. That's not intercepting the puck, that's just swiping it away.
I get what you're saying. I was just trying to get some feedback on the sim side of things as people here have been asking for more the game to require more manual input over automation. I know the dev team is aware of the complaints about interceptions so it's possible this could be adjusted in a future update. We'll have to wait and see if that happens.
I was a big advocate of changing the DSS tripping sensitivity last year and it never was changed. I’d encourage the dev team to keep the state of interceptions the same for longer than a week.
We can’t have a community that complains about offense being OP and not requiring skill while simultaneously asking for auto interceptions for every single pass ever, especially when you get an unrealistic view of the whole play at any given second.
I’m being genuine when I say that I haven’t experienced much issue in pass interceptions. As I’ve stated before on these forums over the years, you need to be in a gliding state while not holding LT for maximum pass interception success rate. I am using the smallest PMD possible and have genuinely not had a single pass get through me where I could say I was in a gliding state, read the play completely right, and was not holding LT. Every single pass where I’ve played “zone” and abided by these rules, I’ve made a clean interception. In situations where I knew that wasn’t going to be possible, I used the DSS to put my stick where I thought the shot was going to be released from to get the incidental contact disruption, or I’ve relied on incidental body contact and literally skated into the guy to disrupt the pass, or I’ve actually performed a RS shove without penalty, I’ve also used the hold “A” tie up to disrupt, simple stick lift, or I used LB/RB+LB to block or lay down to breakup the passing lane.
I will say that I’ve seen a puck clip right through LB which is a legitimate gripe, but that’s the only time I’ve felt I truly didn’t have control of the situation. The not holding LT + glide state thing has been a thing since old-gen NHL. The people that genuinely know how to feather their LT+LS and make small adjustments up until the pass will have a lot more success with interceptions this year. With how effective DSS is (especially the R3 manual poke) and how everyone always sees the whole play, this is a needed change to promote more on-puck defense and less reliance on auto-animations to open the 6s games up. 6s has been unplayable for two years straight due to how incredibly boring it was, and 21 has actually made defense fun again. You feel like an active participant, and with good team defense, you are still not going to give up a ton of goals. Just gotta change the approach to the game this year. Strong-side needs to put a little more pressure on, weakside has to stay a little closer to the receiver.
I think the defensive state of the game is more than fine. I’m actually liking the experience. Having an active stick is fun and rewarding! This doesn’t mean I think the game is perfect, it doesn’t mean I think that offense doesn’t need some nerfs, but I genuinely have not liked playing online defense this much since NHL 16 which was an insanely easy game for good defenseman. I find myself almost “revis islanding” the right side of the ice right now with my ability to use DSS to mitigate the speed of the rush and disrupt the rush entirely with early pokes due to me anticipating their path before they even make it.
This is a 100% more enjoyable “forced adaption” than the previous “don’t poke or you’ll take someone out” change from last year, and it’s also 100% easier to workaround imo. I genuinely have not had a pass go through when I can genuinely say I played that play correctly from a video game standpoint which I’ve articulated earlier.
Long answer short, let the community be mad and adapt a bit. Please don’t panic, people will learn.This isn’t a bad change. This is a true skill gap. We’re seeing a community who over-relied on automation struggling to adapt to a change which requires just a little more skill and anticipation. Even that little extra room for error has provided a huge skill gap, and one that’s easily learned, makes sense, and balances out the overlooked aspect of “we get to see the whole play at every second” part of playing video game hockey. It’s like the movie Top Gun explaining why the Top Gun program exists. American fighter pilots over-relied upon heat-seeking ATA misses and as a result, saw their dogfighting effectiveness decrease. Same thing here. Pass intercepts have coddled the community for years and years, it’s going to be pulling teeth for the first few weeks, but I think it’s a necessary change to open the 6s game up and force defenders into making actually difficult decisions and reads.
let the community be mad and adapt a bit. Please don’t panic, people will learn.This isn’t a bad change. This is a true skill gap. We’re seeing a community who over-relied on automation struggling to adapt to a change which requires just a little more skill and anticipation. Even that little extra room for error has provided a huge skill gap, and one that’s easily learned, makes sense, and balances out the overlooked aspect of “we get to see the whole play at every second” part of playing video game hockey. It’s like the movie Top Gun explaining why the Top Gun program exists. American fighter pilots over-relied upon heat-seeking ATA misses and as a result, saw their dogfighting effectiveness decrease. Same thing here. Pass intercepts have coddled the community for years and years, it’s going to be pulling teeth for the first few weeks, but I think it’s a necessary change to open the 6s game up and force defenders into making actually difficult decisions and reads.
Imagine a game where the offense actually has to work for their ice! Where just pushing down to continue skating when you've been challenged doesn't end up as an auto micro-battle that fights the D for the puck, reaches, and maintains it all for the offense. Offense just needs to skate and pass. The game does the rest.
The forward fakes yellow out - gets him to move laterally to the left for only a few frames, but that's all he needs to utilize his acceleration (and he's able to do so because he's not holding LS to 100% the whole time - allowing him agility and bursts of speed):
After he gets around yellow - Yellow throws a body check while also turning around:
At this point, Yellow should've hit stick lift:
Failing to stick lift, failing to use DSS to discourage movement and falling victim to a head fake... 3 crucial mistakes resulting in NOT obtaining possession. I like that.
Imagine playing "aggressive" and not "passive" defense. The offense does nothing but skates in a straight line right into you in a position where the puck should never be maintained. Yet he doesn't stumble, nor does he get slowed, and once more the auto-pickup helps him out.
The forward receives the puck at the moment Yellow just skates in to him. Yellow is pushing too hard to the right - and this is evidenced by the fact that yellow ends up on the outside of the play:
This is poor defensive gap control by Yellow. I understand you want yellow to disrupt the path of the puck carrier - and part of me agrees - but most of me agrees that yellow should pay a price for not using good body positioning to negate this chance. Also - the defensive players the player in the centre position is flopping all over the place.... you can tell the team in red is able to expose overly aggressive D.
Skate around the body? No. Sky the pass over the body? Nope. Expect what's been indicative of this game in regards to the puck. Let's just go through bodies with the pass.
There's clearly a gap between the player's body and the puck:
The angle you chose makes it appear the puck goes through the body - and I'm not saying it never does - but in this instance I believe the puck just found a gap.
This game is great! Don't change anything. There's no more room for improvement. We've done it boys. Want more going through things with less than a minute left for the tying goal? Why not. Stick through stick, stick through pads. Let's goooo, lol.
Clipping happens in every game - especially sports - ever made. This will always be an issue. The horsepower required - and the engineering under the hood - just isn't there to calculate interactions between every single piece of equipment on the ice.
EA does their best to fix this - it gets better every year - but sometimes things like this happen.
It doesn't mean the game isn't great. lots of Great games suffer this problem.
I get it. There's obviously people that love the game. There's aspect of it that I enjoy too, but to say that there's nothing wrong and/or we're near a perfect working game here is hyperbole.
Nobody has ever said there was nothing wrong with NHL 21 nor has anyone said the game is perfect.
It's getting there though.
For the record, every time you try to prove a point with a clip that's not 6v6 EASHL and a 1v1 mode that's full of AI, slower, less lag, and easier to perform actions, you're not proving a point.
1) Why would I not poke check when there's a puck right in front of me? When the stick clearly clips through the puck on what should've been an easy poke, but draws a trip even though the player is too close to receive one. Why are you critiquing my decision making and completely ignoring that it simply should have worked? The forward turns towards the boards like most forwards do when they're pressured, because it was a safety net in 20. There isn't even stick on skate contact to warrant a trip.
I'll explain what's going on here. Forwards love to zig-zag when they get close, due to the usual half-second lag. It makes poking and DSSing difficult. One of my favorite tactics is I like to let them get the first fake, because more than likely, they will try for a fake the other way and skate right back into you if you slow down enough so they don't zag in front of you, but into you. Lo and behold, that's what happens!
He skates right into my hit which does absolutely nothing. At this point, once again, the forward's auto actions take over. BTW, where you're telling me to stick lift will result in no stick lift. Mostly nothing or a penalty. I'm still too far. This is new for 21. In-close lifts are better.
Anyway, we get into this micro-stick fight that's out of both of our hands, but if you look closely, I DO stick lift and it's successful. I am even between the defender and the puck.
The forward is separated, I'm facing him and he's perfectly boxed out. Because of the forward's auto-reach, he regains the puck with the reach in a a completely awkward looking animation. If this was the sim this was meant to be, the in-close shove should have stumbled him, but he shrugs it off.
From start to finish my actions were:
0) Time my actions to compensate for the lag (All game, really)
1) Gap control.
2) Anticipate the zig-zag.
3) Initiate the hit.
4) Stay parallel to him.
6) Initiate the stick lift.
6) Initiate the hit.
All while this is happening, every action I do makes my player slow down while his player remains in this constant glide. Again, this is the disparity between offense and defense.
3) Sorry. I have perfect gap control here. I am not beat by the forward, but by the overly aggressive offensive automatic puck pick up. The forward has to do nothing here but just keep skating in a straight line and he's rewarded. There's a stick lift here. It's why you see the forward momentarily loose the puck. The forward hustles right into my back and the puck is even in front of me. There's barely any puck separation and he's not even slowed down with the contact.
Also, I can't stop moving because when you stick lift, you momentarily don't have control of your player. You lose control AND you lose speed. The forward doesn't deke, he doesn't move, he doesn't puck protect, he simply keeps skating forward while the auto-reach does his job for him.
4) What gap?? The puck clips through my arm, much like it clips through 50 other things in 21. You can watch the path right through the body in the gif.
5) More clipping. The clipping is horrendous and is more egregious in 21 than 20. It's something that EA absolutely needs to get right, especially if you won't correctly model stick on body physics. One of the most frustrating things for a defender for years is that if they are in good position to impede a player's stick on the shot, the player will still shoot through the defender as if he's not even there and get full power on the shot instead of a shanked shot. The stick clipping through the stick is one thing, through the stick and pads is just... no.
Anyway, no need to even respond. Keep doing you and I'll keep fighting for a better game.
Imagine a game where the offense actually has to work for their ice! Where just pushing down to continue skating when you've been challenged doesn't end up as an auto micro-battle that fights the D for the puck, reaches, and maintains it all for the offense. Offense just needs to skate and pass. The game does the rest.
The forward fakes yellow out - gets him to move laterally to the left for only a few frames, but that's all he needs to utilize his acceleration (and he's able to do so because he's not holding LS to 100% the whole time - allowing him agility and bursts of speed):
After he gets around yellow - Yellow throws a body check while also turning around:
At this point, Yellow should've hit stick lift:
Failing to stick lift, failing to use DSS to discourage movement and falling victim to a head fake... 3 crucial mistakes resulting in NOT obtaining possession. I like that.
Imagine playing "aggressive" and not "passive" defense. The offense does nothing but skates in a straight line right into you in a position where the puck should never be maintained. Yet he doesn't stumble, nor does he get slowed, and once more the auto-pickup helps him out.
The forward receives the puck at the moment Yellow just skates in to him. Yellow is pushing too hard to the right - and this is evidenced by the fact that yellow ends up on the outside of the play:
This is poor defensive gap control by Yellow. I understand you want yellow to disrupt the path of the puck carrier - and part of me agrees - but most of me agrees that yellow should pay a price for not using good body positioning to negate this chance. Also - the defensive players the player in the centre position is flopping all over the place.... you can tell the team in red is able to expose overly aggressive D.
Skate around the body? No. Sky the pass over the body? Nope. Expect what's been indicative of this game in regards to the puck. Let's just go through bodies with the pass.
There's clearly a gap between the player's body and the puck:
The angle you chose makes it appear the puck goes through the body - and I'm not saying it never does - but in this instance I believe the puck just found a gap.
This game is great! Don't change anything. There's no more room for improvement. We've done it boys. Want more going through things with less than a minute left for the tying goal? Why not. Stick through stick, stick through pads. Let's goooo, lol.
Clipping happens in every game - especially sports - ever made. This will always be an issue. The horsepower required - and the engineering under the hood - just isn't there to calculate interactions between every single piece of equipment on the ice.
EA does their best to fix this - it gets better every year - but sometimes things like this happen.
It doesn't mean the game isn't great. lots of Great games suffer this problem.
I get it. There's obviously people that love the game. There's aspect of it that I enjoy too, but to say that there's nothing wrong and/or we're near a perfect working game here is hyperbole.
Nobody has ever said there was nothing wrong with NHL 21 nor has anyone said the game is perfect.
It's getting there though.
for the record, every time you try to prove a point with a clip that's not 6v6 EASHL and a 1v1 mode that's full of AI, slower, less lag, and easier to perform actions, you're not proving a point.
1) Why would I not poke check when there's a puck right in front of me? When the stick clearly clips through the puck on what should've been an easy poke, but draws a trip even though the player is too close to receive one. Why are you critiquing my decision making and completely ignoring that it simply should have worked? The forward turns towards the boards like most forwards do when they're pressured, because it was a safety net in 20. There isn't even stick on skate contact to warrant a trip.
2) I'm ignoring your instructional video, but it's great for showing people how to defend in BAP it looks like. Looks like the same speed as well.
I'll explain what's going on here. Forwards love to zig-zag when they get close, due to the usual half-second lag. It makes poking and DSSing difficult. One of my favorite tactics is I like to let them get the first fake, because more than likely, they will try for a fake the other way and skate right back into you if you slow down enough so they don't zag in front of you, but into you. Lo and behold, that's what happens!
He skates right into my hit which does absolutely nothing. At this point, once again, the forward's auto actions take over. BTW, where you're telling me to stick lift will result in no stick lift. Mostly nothing or a penalty. I'm still too far. This is new for 21. In-close lifts are better.
Anyway, we get into this micro-stick fight that's out of both of our hands, but if you look closely, I DO stick lift and it's successful. I am even between the defender and the puck.
The forward is separated, I'm facing him and he's perfectly boxed out. Because of the forward's auto-reach, he regains the puck with the reach in a a completely awkward looking animation. If this was the sim this was meant to be, the in-close shove should have stumbled him, but he shrugs it off.
From start to finish my actions were:
0) Time my actions to compensate for the lag (All game, really)
1) Gap control.
2) Anticipate the zig-zag.
3) Initiate the hit.
4) Stay parallel to him.
6) Initiate the stick lift.
6) Initiate the hit.
All while this is happening, every action I do makes my player slow down while his player remains in this constant glide. Again, this is the disparity between offense and defense.
3) Sorry. I have perfect gap control here. I am not beat by the forward, but by the overly aggressive offensive automatic puck pick up. The forward has to do nothing here but just keep skating in a straight line and he's rewarded. There's a stick lift here. It's why you see the forward momentarily loose the puck. The forward hustles right into my back and the puck is even in front of me. There's barely any puck separation and he's not even slowed down with the contact.
Also, I can't stop moving because when you stick lift, you momentarily don't have control of your player. You lose control AND you lose speed. The forward doesn't deke, he doesn't move, he doesn't puck protect, he simply keeps skating forward while the auto-reach does his job for him.
4) What gap?? The puck clips through my arm, much like it clips through 50 other things in 21. You can watch the path right through the body in the gif.
5) More clipping. The clipping is horrendous and is more egregious in 21 than 20. It's something that EA absolutely needs to get right, especially if you won't correctly model stick on body physics. One of the most frustrating things for a defender for years is that if they are in good position to impede a player's stick on the shot, the player will still shoot through the defender as if he's not even there and get full power on the shot instead of a shanked shot. The stick clipping through the stick is one thing, through the stick and pads is just... no.
Anyway, no need to even respond. Keep doing you and I'll keep fighting for a better game.
I agree with everything you're saying. Anyone who disagrees with what you're showing is clearly just going out of their way to prove you wrong by being absolutely ridiculous.
The players who are saying the players complaining are used to automation are the players who clearly benefit from the automation of passes going through forced and every one timer going in..of course they don't want it to change.
Anyone who says being in the passing lane AND facing the player the pass is coming from isn't enough to intercept the pass is clearly benefiting and being rewarded for just forcing these passes. It's so dumb.
Imagine a game where the offense actually has to work for their ice! Where just pushing down to continue skating when you've been challenged doesn't end up as an auto micro-battle that fights the D for the puck, reaches, and maintains it all for the offense. Offense just needs to skate and pass. The game does the rest.
The forward fakes yellow out - gets him to move laterally to the left for only a few frames, but that's all he needs to utilize his acceleration (and he's able to do so because he's not holding LS to 100% the whole time - allowing him agility and bursts of speed):
After he gets around yellow - Yellow throws a body check while also turning around:
At this point, Yellow should've hit stick lift:
Failing to stick lift, failing to use DSS to discourage movement and falling victim to a head fake... 3 crucial mistakes resulting in NOT obtaining possession. I like that.
Imagine playing "aggressive" and not "passive" defense. The offense does nothing but skates in a straight line right into you in a position where the puck should never be maintained. Yet he doesn't stumble, nor does he get slowed, and once more the auto-pickup helps him out.
The forward receives the puck at the moment Yellow just skates in to him. Yellow is pushing too hard to the right - and this is evidenced by the fact that yellow ends up on the outside of the play:
This is poor defensive gap control by Yellow. I understand you want yellow to disrupt the path of the puck carrier - and part of me agrees - but most of me agrees that yellow should pay a price for not using good body positioning to negate this chance. Also - the defensive players the player in the centre position is flopping all over the place.... you can tell the team in red is able to expose overly aggressive D.
Skate around the body? No. Sky the pass over the body? Nope. Expect what's been indicative of this game in regards to the puck. Let's just go through bodies with the pass.
There's clearly a gap between the player's body and the puck:
The angle you chose makes it appear the puck goes through the body - and I'm not saying it never does - but in this instance I believe the puck just found a gap.
This game is great! Don't change anything. There's no more room for improvement. We've done it boys. Want more going through things with less than a minute left for the tying goal? Why not. Stick through stick, stick through pads. Let's goooo, lol.
Clipping happens in every game - especially sports - ever made. This will always be an issue. The horsepower required - and the engineering under the hood - just isn't there to calculate interactions between every single piece of equipment on the ice.
EA does their best to fix this - it gets better every year - but sometimes things like this happen.
It doesn't mean the game isn't great. lots of Great games suffer this problem.
I get it. There's obviously people that love the game. There's aspect of it that I enjoy too, but to say that there's nothing wrong and/or we're near a perfect working game here is hyperbole.
Nobody has ever said there was nothing wrong with NHL 21 nor has anyone said the game is perfect.
It's getting there though.
This is probably going to be my last correspondence to you, because trying to have a discussion with you has never felt like it's been worth my time since back when I first saw your comments in NHL 18. You always seem to want to gotcha' people's arguments. Even Sega who is usually enthusiastic about the way these games play will try meet you in the middle. You've done the same thing in the thread where you wanted to prove a point, mistook me as the wrong player, and destroyed your own argument in the process when you realized that the point you made actually favored me. You didn't even respond, you just simply stopped talking. Which was fine for me either way. If you like, I can search around and find that thread.
Also, for the record, every time you try to prove a point with a clip that's not 6v6 EASHL and a 1v1 mode that's full of AI, slower, less lag, and easier to perform actions, you're not proving a point. It's like I'm trying to explain to you why I think something is wrong against an adult opponent and you try to show me how it's done versus a toddler.
1) Why would I not poke check when there's a puck right in front of me? When the stick clearly clips through the puck on what should've been an easy poke, but draws a trip even though the player is too close to receive one. Why are you critiquing my decision making and completely ignoring that it simply should have worked? The forward turns towards the boards like most forwards do when they're pressured, because it was a safety net in 20. There isn't even stick on skate contact to warrant a trip.
2) I'm ignoring your instructional video, but it's great for showing people how to defend in BAP it looks like. Looks like the same speed as well.
I'll explain what's going on here. Forwards love to zig-zag when they get close, due to the usual half-second lag. It makes poking and DSSing difficult. One of my favorite tactics is I like to let them get the first fake, because more than likely, they will try for a fake the other way and skate right back into you if you slow down enough so they don't zag in front of you, but into you. Lo and behold, that's what happens!
He skates right into my hit which does absolutely nothing. At this point, once again, the forward's auto actions take over. BTW, where you're telling me to stick lift will result in no stick lift. Mostly nothing or a penalty. I'm still too far. This is new for 21. In-close lifts are better.
Anyway, we get into this micro-stick fight that's out of both of our hands, but if you look closely, I DO stick lift and it's successful. I am even between the defender and the puck.
The forward is separated, I'm facing him and he's perfectly boxed out. Because of the forward's auto-reach, he regains the puck with the reach in a a completely awkward looking animation. If this was the sim this was meant to be, the in-close shove should have stumbled him, but he shrugs it off.
From start to finish my actions were:
0) Time my actions to compensate for the lag (All game, really)
1) Gap control.
2) Anticipate the zig-zag.
3) Initiate the hit.
4) Stay parallel to him.
6) Initiate the stick lift.
6) Initiate the hit.
All while this is happening, every action I do makes my player slow down while his player remains in this constant glide. Again, this is the disparity between offense and defense.
3) Sorry. I have perfect gap control here. I am not beat by the forward, but by the overly aggressive offensive automatic puck pick up. The forward has to do nothing here but just keep skating in a straight line and he's rewarded. There's a stick lift here. It's why you see the forward momentarily loose the puck. The forward hustles right into my back and the puck is even in front of me. There's barely any puck separation and he's not even slowed down with the contact.
Also, I can't stop moving because when you stick lift, you momentarily don't have control of your player. You lose control AND you lose speed. The forward doesn't deke, he doesn't move, he doesn't puck protect, he simply keeps skating forward while the auto-reach does his job for him.
4) What gap?? The puck clips through my arm, much like it clips through 50 other things in 21. You can watch the path right through the body in the gif.
5) More clipping. The clipping is horrendous and is more egregious in 21 than 20. It's something that EA absolutely needs to get right, especially if you won't correctly model stick on body physics. One of the most frustrating things for a defender for years is that if they are in good position to impede a player's stick on the shot, the player will still shoot through the defender as if he's not even there and get full power on the shot instead of a shanked shot. The stick clipping through the stick is one thing, through the stick and pads is just... no.
Anyway, no need to even respond. Keep doing you and I'll keep fighting for a better game.
I agree with everything you're saying. Anyone who disagrees with what you're showing is clearly just going out of their way to prove you wrong by being absolutely ridiculous.
The players who are saying the players complaining are used to automation are the players who clearly benefit from the automation of passes going through forced and every one timer going in..of course they don't want it to change.
Anyone who says being in the passing lane AND facing the player the pass is coming from isn't enough to intercept the pass is clearly benefiting and being rewarded for just forcing these passes. It's so dumb.
Well I’m a full-time defenseman so I’m definitely not the one benefitting from these underpowered interception levels.
To your second point, I actually used those exact words to describe when it SHOULD be an interception. I still think “in the lane” lacks a lot of context though and doesn’t adequately cover all scenarios. I’ve seen many real life NHL goals scored due to passing it through defenders who were “in the lane” so again, the debate isn’t as simple at you’re making it out to be.
Something we've had a lot of feedback on here is making the game more sim and having less automated actions so that personal skill is more important. It would seem having interceptions be less automated would align with that. Would you guys rather defense be more manual and dependent on skill or would you rather have interceptions be more automated and just need you to be in the passing lane?
I can get behind a more manual way of intercepting/breaking up passes. The current "get in position and pray" model is frustrating at best, and has only been made more so this year.
My caveat is that whatever form the mechanic takes( right stick, button press, etc ), it should be at the same level of difficulty to pull off as one-timers are for offense. If one-timers can be done by just flicking up the right stick as the puck is coming then breaking up the pass should be just as easy.
That's a fair statement. Definitely appreciate the feedback.
Nicely said. I too have been enjoying defense more. I've played D almost exclusively from day 1 and it's been more enjoyable in 21 than in recent years. I haven't been focusing on interceptions so much as I've changed my playstyle to pressure the carrier more and break up plays with DSS. That has been working really well and is a lot more fun than just hanging out in passing lanes waiting for an auto-intercept. Builds with a lower defensive awareness stat will have a harder time with interceptions.
I know the dev team is keeping an eye on this, but they also want to give the community time to adapt before making changes. The idea is to make manual defense more important than playing passive. So far, it's feeling like that is working, but we'll keep monitoring community feedback.
Imagine a game where the offense actually has to work for their ice! Where just pushing down to continue skating when you've been challenged doesn't end up as an auto micro-battle that fights the D for the puck, reaches, and maintains it all for the offense. Offense just needs to skate and pass. The game does the rest.
The forward fakes yellow out - gets him to move laterally to the left for only a few frames, but that's all he needs to utilize his acceleration (and he's able to do so because he's not holding LS to 100% the whole time - allowing him agility and bursts of speed):
After he gets around yellow - Yellow throws a body check while also turning around:
At this point, Yellow should've hit stick lift:
Failing to stick lift, failing to use DSS to discourage movement and falling victim to a head fake... 3 crucial mistakes resulting in NOT obtaining possession. I like that.
Imagine playing "aggressive" and not "passive" defense. The offense does nothing but skates in a straight line right into you in a position where the puck should never be maintained. Yet he doesn't stumble, nor does he get slowed, and once more the auto-pickup helps him out.
The forward receives the puck at the moment Yellow just skates in to him. Yellow is pushing too hard to the right - and this is evidenced by the fact that yellow ends up on the outside of the play:
This is poor defensive gap control by Yellow. I understand you want yellow to disrupt the path of the puck carrier - and part of me agrees - but most of me agrees that yellow should pay a price for not using good body positioning to negate this chance. Also - the defensive players the player in the centre position is flopping all over the place.... you can tell the team in red is able to expose overly aggressive D.
Skate around the body? No. Sky the pass over the body? Nope. Expect what's been indicative of this game in regards to the puck. Let's just go through bodies with the pass.
There's clearly a gap between the player's body and the puck:
The angle you chose makes it appear the puck goes through the body - and I'm not saying it never does - but in this instance I believe the puck just found a gap.
This game is great! Don't change anything. There's no more room for improvement. We've done it boys. Want more going through things with less than a minute left for the tying goal? Why not. Stick through stick, stick through pads. Let's goooo, lol.
Clipping happens in every game - especially sports - ever made. This will always be an issue. The horsepower required - and the engineering under the hood - just isn't there to calculate interactions between every single piece of equipment on the ice.
EA does their best to fix this - it gets better every year - but sometimes things like this happen.
It doesn't mean the game isn't great. lots of Great games suffer this problem.
I get it. There's obviously people that love the game. There's aspect of it that I enjoy too, but to say that there's nothing wrong and/or we're near a perfect working game here is hyperbole.
Nobody has ever said there was nothing wrong with NHL 21 nor has anyone said the game is perfect.
It's getting there though.
This is probably going to be my last correspondence to you, because trying to have a discussion with you has never felt like it's been worth my time since back when I first saw your comments in NHL 18. You always seem to want to gotcha' people's arguments. Even Sega who is usually enthusiastic about the way these games play will try meet you in the middle. You've done the same thing in the thread where you wanted to prove a point, mistook me as the wrong player, and destroyed your own argument in the process when you realized that the point you made actually favored me. You didn't even respond, you just simply stopped talking. Which was fine for me either way. If you like, I can search around and find that thread.
Also, for the record, every time you try to prove a point with a clip that's not 6v6 EASHL and a 1v1 mode that's full of AI, slower, less lag, and easier to perform actions, you're not proving a point. It's like I'm trying to explain to you why I think something is wrong against an adult opponent and you try to show me how it's done versus a toddler.
1) Why would I not poke check when there's a puck right in front of me? When the stick clearly clips through the puck on what should've been an easy poke, but draws a trip even though the player is too close to receive one. Why are you critiquing my decision making and completely ignoring that it simply should have worked? The forward turns towards the boards like most forwards do when they're pressured, because it was a safety net in 20. There isn't even stick on skate contact to warrant a trip.
2) I'm ignoring your instructional video, but it's great for showing people how to defend in BAP it looks like. Looks like the same speed as well.
I'll explain what's going on here. Forwards love to zig-zag when they get close, due to the usual half-second lag. It makes poking and DSSing difficult. One of my favorite tactics is I like to let them get the first fake, because more than likely, they will try for a fake the other way and skate right back into you if you slow down enough so they don't zag in front of you, but into you. Lo and behold, that's what happens!
He skates right into my hit which does absolutely nothing. At this point, once again, the forward's auto actions take over. BTW, where you're telling me to stick lift will result in no stick lift. Mostly nothing or a penalty. I'm still too far. This is new for 21. In-close lifts are better.
Anyway, we get into this micro-stick fight that's out of both of our hands, but if you look closely, I DO stick lift and it's successful. I am even between the defender and the puck.
The forward is separated, I'm facing him and he's perfectly boxed out. Because of the forward's auto-reach, he regains the puck with the reach in a a completely awkward looking animation. If this was the sim this was meant to be, the in-close shove should have stumbled him, but he shrugs it off.
From start to finish my actions were:
0) Time my actions to compensate for the lag (All game, really)
1) Gap control.
2) Anticipate the zig-zag.
3) Initiate the hit.
4) Stay parallel to him.
6) Initiate the stick lift.
6) Initiate the hit.
All while this is happening, every action I do makes my player slow down while his player remains in this constant glide. Again, this is the disparity between offense and defense.
3) Sorry. I have perfect gap control here. I am not beat by the forward, but by the overly aggressive offensive automatic puck pick up. The forward has to do nothing here but just keep skating in a straight line and he's rewarded. There's a stick lift here. It's why you see the forward momentarily loose the puck. The forward hustles right into my back and the puck is even in front of me. There's barely any puck separation and he's not even slowed down with the contact.
Also, I can't stop moving because when you stick lift, you momentarily don't have control of your player. You lose control AND you lose speed. The forward doesn't deke, he doesn't move, he doesn't puck protect, he simply keeps skating forward while the auto-reach does his job for him.
4) What gap?? The puck clips through my arm, much like it clips through 50 other things in 21. You can watch the path right through the body in the gif.
5) More clipping. The clipping is horrendous and is more egregious in 21 than 20. It's something that EA absolutely needs to get right, especially if you won't correctly model stick on body physics. One of the most frustrating things for a defender for years is that if they are in good position to impede a player's stick on the shot, the player will still shoot through the defender as if he's not even there and get full power on the shot instead of a shanked shot. The stick clipping through the stick is one thing, through the stick and pads is just... no.
Anyway, no need to even respond. Keep doing you and I'll keep fighting for a better game.
I agree with everything you're saying. Anyone who disagrees with what you're showing is clearly just going out of their way to prove you wrong by being absolutely ridiculous.
The players who are saying the players complaining are used to automation are the players who clearly benefit from the automation of passes going through forced and every one timer going in..of course they don't want it to change.
Anyone who says being in the passing lane AND facing the player the pass is coming from isn't enough to intercept the pass is clearly benefiting and being rewarded for just forcing these passes. It's so dumb.
Well I’m a full-time defenseman so I’m definitely not the one benefitting from these underpowered interception levels.
To your second point, I actually used those exact words to describe when it SHOULD be an interception. I still think “in the lane” lacks a lot of context though and doesn’t adequately cover all scenarios. I’ve seen many real life NHL goals scored due to passing it through defenders who were “in the lane” so again, the debate isn’t as simple at you’re making it out to be.
I just think it's very clear that automation benefits the offensive player way more than a defensive player.. in eashl I only play forward and in ovp I'm 7-2-1, but every game the only move my opponent makes is forcing cross crease for one timers and it works way too much.
Why do goalies never adapt ? If 8/10 shot attempts the opponent is only trying to force one timers, shouldn't the goalie stop it since passes go through defenders in position ? Lol just seems like common sense that there is a lack of balance.
Something we've had a lot of feedback on here is making the game more sim and having less automated actions so that personal skill is more important. It would seem having interceptions be less automated would align with that. Would you guys rather defense be more manual and dependent on skill or would you rather have interceptions be more automated and just need you to be in the passing lane?
I can get behind a more manual way of intercepting/breaking up passes. The current "get in position and pray" model is frustrating at best, and has only been made more so this year.
My caveat is that whatever form the mechanic takes( right stick, button press, etc ), it should be at the same level of difficulty to pull off as one-timers are for offense. If one-timers can be done by just flicking up the right stick as the puck is coming then breaking up the pass should be just as easy.
That's a fair statement. Definitely appreciate the feedback.
Nicely said. I too have been enjoying defense more. I've played D almost exclusively from day 1 and it's been more enjoyable in 21 than in recent years. I haven't been focusing on interceptions so much as I've changed my playstyle to pressure the carrier more and break up plays with DSS. That has been working really well and is a lot more fun than just hanging out in passing lanes waiting for an auto-intercept. Builds with a lower defensive awareness stat will have a harder time with interceptions.
I know the dev team is keeping an eye on this, but they also want to give the community time to adapt before making changes. The idea is to make manual defense more important than playing passive. So far, it's feeling like that is working, but we'll keep monitoring community feedback.
That’s great to hear. I’m glad they’ve tried to make this game much more skill-based. It’s made me actually play an online game and want to continue playing online! Genuinely surprised and impressed.
Imagine a game where the offense actually has to work for their ice! Where just pushing down to continue skating when you've been challenged doesn't end up as an auto micro-battle that fights the D for the puck, reaches, and maintains it all for the offense. Offense just needs to skate and pass. The game does the rest.
The forward fakes yellow out - gets him to move laterally to the left for only a few frames, but that's all he needs to utilize his acceleration (and he's able to do so because he's not holding LS to 100% the whole time - allowing him agility and bursts of speed):
After he gets around yellow - Yellow throws a body check while also turning around:
At this point, Yellow should've hit stick lift:
Failing to stick lift, failing to use DSS to discourage movement and falling victim to a head fake... 3 crucial mistakes resulting in NOT obtaining possession. I like that.
Imagine playing "aggressive" and not "passive" defense. The offense does nothing but skates in a straight line right into you in a position where the puck should never be maintained. Yet he doesn't stumble, nor does he get slowed, and once more the auto-pickup helps him out.
The forward receives the puck at the moment Yellow just skates in to him. Yellow is pushing too hard to the right - and this is evidenced by the fact that yellow ends up on the outside of the play:
This is poor defensive gap control by Yellow. I understand you want yellow to disrupt the path of the puck carrier - and part of me agrees - but most of me agrees that yellow should pay a price for not using good body positioning to negate this chance. Also - the defensive players the player in the centre position is flopping all over the place.... you can tell the team in red is able to expose overly aggressive D.
Skate around the body? No. Sky the pass over the body? Nope. Expect what's been indicative of this game in regards to the puck. Let's just go through bodies with the pass.
There's clearly a gap between the player's body and the puck:
The angle you chose makes it appear the puck goes through the body - and I'm not saying it never does - but in this instance I believe the puck just found a gap.
This game is great! Don't change anything. There's no more room for improvement. We've done it boys. Want more going through things with less than a minute left for the tying goal? Why not. Stick through stick, stick through pads. Let's goooo, lol.
Clipping happens in every game - especially sports - ever made. This will always be an issue. The horsepower required - and the engineering under the hood - just isn't there to calculate interactions between every single piece of equipment on the ice.
EA does their best to fix this - it gets better every year - but sometimes things like this happen.
It doesn't mean the game isn't great. lots of Great games suffer this problem.
I get it. There's obviously people that love the game. There's aspect of it that I enjoy too, but to say that there's nothing wrong and/or we're near a perfect working game here is hyperbole.
Nobody has ever said there was nothing wrong with NHL 21 nor has anyone said the game is perfect.
It's getting there though.
This is probably going to be my last correspondence to you, because trying to have a discussion with you has never felt like it's been worth my time since back when I first saw your comments in NHL 18. You always seem to want to gotcha' people's arguments. Even Sega who is usually enthusiastic about the way these games play will try meet you in the middle. You've done the same thing in the thread where you wanted to prove a point, mistook me as the wrong player, and destroyed your own argument in the process when you realized that the point you made actually favored me. You didn't even respond, you just simply stopped talking. Which was fine for me either way. If you like, I can search around and find that thread.
Also, for the record, every time you try to prove a point with a clip that's not 6v6 EASHL and a 1v1 mode that's full of AI, slower, less lag, and easier to perform actions, you're not proving a point. It's like I'm trying to explain to you why I think something is wrong against an adult opponent and you try to show me how it's done versus a toddler.
1) Why would I not poke check when there's a puck right in front of me? When the stick clearly clips through the puck on what should've been an easy poke, but draws a trip even though the player is too close to receive one. Why are you critiquing my decision making and completely ignoring that it simply should have worked? The forward turns towards the boards like most forwards do when they're pressured, because it was a safety net in 20. There isn't even stick on skate contact to warrant a trip.
2) I'm ignoring your instructional video, but it's great for showing people how to defend in BAP it looks like. Looks like the same speed as well.
I'll explain what's going on here. Forwards love to zig-zag when they get close, due to the usual half-second lag. It makes poking and DSSing difficult. One of my favorite tactics is I like to let them get the first fake, because more than likely, they will try for a fake the other way and skate right back into you if you slow down enough so they don't zag in front of you, but into you. Lo and behold, that's what happens!
He skates right into my hit which does absolutely nothing. At this point, once again, the forward's auto actions take over. BTW, where you're telling me to stick lift will result in no stick lift. Mostly nothing or a penalty. I'm still too far. This is new for 21. In-close lifts are better.
Anyway, we get into this micro-stick fight that's out of both of our hands, but if you look closely, I DO stick lift and it's successful. I am even between the defender and the puck.
The forward is separated, I'm facing him and he's perfectly boxed out. Because of the forward's auto-reach, he regains the puck with the reach in a a completely awkward looking animation. If this was the sim this was meant to be, the in-close shove should have stumbled him, but he shrugs it off.
From start to finish my actions were:
0) Time my actions to compensate for the lag (All game, really)
1) Gap control.
2) Anticipate the zig-zag.
3) Initiate the hit.
4) Stay parallel to him.
6) Initiate the stick lift.
6) Initiate the hit.
All while this is happening, every action I do makes my player slow down while his player remains in this constant glide. Again, this is the disparity between offense and defense.
3) Sorry. I have perfect gap control here. I am not beat by the forward, but by the overly aggressive offensive automatic puck pick up. The forward has to do nothing here but just keep skating in a straight line and he's rewarded. There's a stick lift here. It's why you see the forward momentarily loose the puck. The forward hustles right into my back and the puck is even in front of me. There's barely any puck separation and he's not even slowed down with the contact.
Also, I can't stop moving because when you stick lift, you momentarily don't have control of your player. You lose control AND you lose speed. The forward doesn't deke, he doesn't move, he doesn't puck protect, he simply keeps skating forward while the auto-reach does his job for him.
4) What gap?? The puck clips through my arm, much like it clips through 50 other things in 21. You can watch the path right through the body in the gif.
5) More clipping. The clipping is horrendous and is more egregious in 21 than 20. It's something that EA absolutely needs to get right, especially if you won't correctly model stick on body physics. One of the most frustrating things for a defender for years is that if they are in good position to impede a player's stick on the shot, the player will still shoot through the defender as if he's not even there and get full power on the shot instead of a shanked shot. The stick clipping through the stick is one thing, through the stick and pads is just... no.
Anyway, no need to even respond. Keep doing you and I'll keep fighting for a better game.
I agree with everything you're saying. Anyone who disagrees with what you're showing is clearly just going out of their way to prove you wrong by being absolutely ridiculous.
The players who are saying the players complaining are used to automation are the players who clearly benefit from the automation of passes going through forced and every one timer going in..of course they don't want it to change.
Anyone who says being in the passing lane AND facing the player the pass is coming from isn't enough to intercept the pass is clearly benefiting and being rewarded for just forcing these passes. It's so dumb.
Well I’m a full-time defenseman so I’m definitely not the one benefitting from these underpowered interception levels.
To your second point, I actually used those exact words to describe when it SHOULD be an interception. I still think “in the lane” lacks a lot of context though and doesn’t adequately cover all scenarios. I’ve seen many real life NHL goals scored due to passing it through defenders who were “in the lane” so again, the debate isn’t as simple at you’re making it out to be.
I just think it's very clear that automation benefits the offensive player way more than a defensive player.. in eashl I only play forward and in ovp I'm 7-2-1, but every game the only move my opponent makes is forcing cross crease for one timers and it works way too much.
Why do goalies never adapt ? If 8/10 shot attempts the opponent is only trying to force one timers, shouldn't the goalie stop it since passes go through defenders in position ? Lol just seems like common sense that there is a lack of balance.
I can’t speak for OVP, I won’t touch 1v1 modes online with a hundred foot pole. They’re just not enjoyable to me. I think those modes will naturally have a lot more complaints about the forced passes as your AI players play such a critical role in giving up chances. I don’t think the AI is good enough at maintaining their assignments in those modes, so I can definitely see your complaints there.
My POV is specifically in reference to 3s and 6s. I think when everyone is human controlled, the interceptions and over meta are in pretty good states.
Imagine a game where the offense actually has to work for their ice! Where just pushing down to continue skating when you've been challenged doesn't end up as an auto micro-battle that fights the D for the puck, reaches, and maintains it all for the offense. Offense just needs to skate and pass. The game does the rest.
The forward fakes yellow out - gets him to move laterally to the left for only a few frames, but that's all he needs to utilize his acceleration (and he's able to do so because he's not holding LS to 100% the whole time - allowing him agility and bursts of speed):
After he gets around yellow - Yellow throws a body check while also turning around:
At this point, Yellow should've hit stick lift:
Failing to stick lift, failing to use DSS to discourage movement and falling victim to a head fake... 3 crucial mistakes resulting in NOT obtaining possession. I like that.
Imagine playing "aggressive" and not "passive" defense. The offense does nothing but skates in a straight line right into you in a position where the puck should never be maintained. Yet he doesn't stumble, nor does he get slowed, and once more the auto-pickup helps him out.
The forward receives the puck at the moment Yellow just skates in to him. Yellow is pushing too hard to the right - and this is evidenced by the fact that yellow ends up on the outside of the play:
This is poor defensive gap control by Yellow. I understand you want yellow to disrupt the path of the puck carrier - and part of me agrees - but most of me agrees that yellow should pay a price for not using good body positioning to negate this chance. Also - the defensive players the player in the centre position is flopping all over the place.... you can tell the team in red is able to expose overly aggressive D.
Skate around the body? No. Sky the pass over the body? Nope. Expect what's been indicative of this game in regards to the puck. Let's just go through bodies with the pass.
There's clearly a gap between the player's body and the puck:
The angle you chose makes it appear the puck goes through the body - and I'm not saying it never does - but in this instance I believe the puck just found a gap.
This game is great! Don't change anything. There's no more room for improvement. We've done it boys. Want more going through things with less than a minute left for the tying goal? Why not. Stick through stick, stick through pads. Let's goooo, lol.
Clipping happens in every game - especially sports - ever made. This will always be an issue. The horsepower required - and the engineering under the hood - just isn't there to calculate interactions between every single piece of equipment on the ice.
EA does their best to fix this - it gets better every year - but sometimes things like this happen.
It doesn't mean the game isn't great. lots of Great games suffer this problem.
I get it. There's obviously people that love the game. There's aspect of it that I enjoy too, but to say that there's nothing wrong and/or we're near a perfect working game here is hyperbole.
Nobody has ever said there was nothing wrong with NHL 21 nor has anyone said the game is perfect.
It's getting there though.
This is probably going to be my last correspondence to you, because trying to have a discussion with you has never felt like it's been worth my time since back when I first saw your comments in NHL 18. You always seem to want to gotcha' people's arguments. Even Sega who is usually enthusiastic about the way these games play will try meet you in the middle. You've done the same thing in the thread where you wanted to prove a point, mistook me as the wrong player, and destroyed your own argument in the process when you realized that the point you made actually favored me. You didn't even respond, you just simply stopped talking. Which was fine for me either way. If you like, I can search around and find that thread.
Also, for the record, every time you try to prove a point with a clip that's not 6v6 EASHL and a 1v1 mode that's full of AI, slower, less lag, and easier to perform actions, you're not proving a point. It's like I'm trying to explain to you why I think something is wrong against an adult opponent and you try to show me how it's done versus a toddler.
1) Why would I not poke check when there's a puck right in front of me? When the stick clearly clips through the puck on what should've been an easy poke, but draws a trip even though the player is too close to receive one. Why are you critiquing my decision making and completely ignoring that it simply should have worked? The forward turns towards the boards like most forwards do when they're pressured, because it was a safety net in 20. There isn't even stick on skate contact to warrant a trip.
2) I'm ignoring your instructional video, but it's great for showing people how to defend in BAP it looks like. Looks like the same speed as well.
I'll explain what's going on here. Forwards love to zig-zag when they get close, due to the usual half-second lag. It makes poking and DSSing difficult. One of my favorite tactics is I like to let them get the first fake, because more than likely, they will try for a fake the other way and skate right back into you if you slow down enough so they don't zag in front of you, but into you. Lo and behold, that's what happens!
He skates right into my hit which does absolutely nothing. At this point, once again, the forward's auto actions take over. BTW, where you're telling me to stick lift will result in no stick lift. Mostly nothing or a penalty. I'm still too far. This is new for 21. In-close lifts are better.
Anyway, we get into this micro-stick fight that's out of both of our hands, but if you look closely, I DO stick lift and it's successful. I am even between the defender and the puck.
The forward is separated, I'm facing him and he's perfectly boxed out. Because of the forward's auto-reach, he regains the puck with the reach in a a completely awkward looking animation. If this was the sim this was meant to be, the in-close shove should have stumbled him, but he shrugs it off.
From start to finish my actions were:
0) Time my actions to compensate for the lag (All game, really)
1) Gap control.
2) Anticipate the zig-zag.
3) Initiate the hit.
4) Stay parallel to him.
6) Initiate the stick lift.
6) Initiate the hit.
All while this is happening, every action I do makes my player slow down while his player remains in this constant glide. Again, this is the disparity between offense and defense.
3) Sorry. I have perfect gap control here. I am not beat by the forward, but by the overly aggressive offensive automatic puck pick up. The forward has to do nothing here but just keep skating in a straight line and he's rewarded. There's a stick lift here. It's why you see the forward momentarily loose the puck. The forward hustles right into my back and the puck is even in front of me. There's barely any puck separation and he's not even slowed down with the contact.
Also, I can't stop moving because when you stick lift, you momentarily don't have control of your player. You lose control AND you lose speed. The forward doesn't deke, he doesn't move, he doesn't puck protect, he simply keeps skating forward while the auto-reach does his job for him.
4) What gap?? The puck clips through my arm, much like it clips through 50 other things in 21. You can watch the path right through the body in the gif.
5) More clipping. The clipping is horrendous and is more egregious in 21 than 20. It's something that EA absolutely needs to get right, especially if you won't correctly model stick on body physics. One of the most frustrating things for a defender for years is that if they are in good position to impede a player's stick on the shot, the player will still shoot through the defender as if he's not even there and get full power on the shot instead of a shanked shot. The stick clipping through the stick is one thing, through the stick and pads is just... no.
Anyway, no need to even respond. Keep doing you and I'll keep fighting for a better game.
I agree with everything you're saying. Anyone who disagrees with what you're showing is clearly just going out of their way to prove you wrong by being absolutely ridiculous.
The players who are saying the players complaining are used to automation are the players who clearly benefit from the automation of passes going through forced and every one timer going in..of course they don't want it to change.
Anyone who says being in the passing lane AND facing the player the pass is coming from isn't enough to intercept the pass is clearly benefiting and being rewarded for just forcing these passes. It's so dumb.
I'm telling you right now, if you were a defensemen that only frequents this forum, you'd think you were taking crazy pills having to always constantly explain why the defense feels gimped year after year, while a plethora of cool, new, toys keeping rolling out for the offense. It's like having to race a WRX with an 4-Cyl Outback, and then the next year, you get the same Outback w/Turbo and the offense brings a Lambo.
Luckily, I always seek feedback from other places. HF, Reddit, LG, ERA, etc. People that like to play D are mostly in agreeance that there are changes that need to be made, and that there are issues with playing the position.
It should absolutely be sufficient enough for a defensemen to stay in the passing lane and disrupt the pass across for a one T. If you’re playing real hockey as a forward coming down on a 2v1 against a decent defensemen, he’s going to give you a ton of trouble trying to find a route for your pass, and unless he bites on something or makes a mistake, your best option is going to be to shoot.
NHL 21 rewards weak forwards. It’s incredibly simple to score this goal on every 2v1. The puck should have a lot more trouble getting through. How does the puck not hit the defender taking the lane away? It’s straight through 99% of the time, when in reality a clean pass without any disruption at best is 50/50.
If the offensive team has zone control and you let a pass get out front then yes, punish the defenders. But don’t punish good defenders having good position on 2v1s. Tone the success rate down. People who are terrible at this game are scoring 7 goals on 10 shots, it’s ridiculous.
Its hard to push back a opponent that's decided to just skate in furious power straight forward. It's like the physics isn't enough to hold them back. And eventually they get themselves that forced goal, no mather how ugly it looks.
So if you trying to hold on to the puck and pass around, take some shots here and there, the risk is high that you will get overruned by that power of speed.
It feels right know abit, like opponent's that dont have a clue what there doing, is winning games in the very same way.
But this has been the number one tactic for a long time, it's just that it's never been so clear as it is now.
But this has been the number one tactic for a long time, it's just that it's never been so clear as it is now. [/quote]
Agreed, it has always been the go to, and should be. And it is easily exploited this year. If the pass gets through, the puck should go in. Although the puck should not get through 99% of the time. Defensemen are taught to obstruct the pass the best they can without committing too much to either player unless it’s a for sure thing. In this game you either have to take the puck carrier out before he passes, or completely give up on him and commit completely to obstructing the open man. There’s very little chance in this game that your intercepting a pass, or at the very least deflecting it or making it more difficult. This is very un-realistic.
It was bad last year, but it’s worse this year. Players are getting less creative and forcing the same play, every play. It’s becoming frustrating and boring. Our eashl team has 50-12-2 record, so this isn’t coming from me complaining about losing all the time.
But this has been the number one tactic for a long time, it's just that it's never been so clear as it is now.
Agreed, it has always been the go to, and should be. And it is easily exploited this year. If the pass gets through, the puck should go in. Although the puck should not get through 99% of the time. Defensemen are taught to obstruct the pass the best they can without committing too much to either player unless it’s a for sure thing. In this game you either have to take the puck carrier out before he passes, or completely give up on him and commit completely to obstructing the open man. There’s very little chance in this game that your intercepting a pass, or at the very least deflecting it or making it more difficult. This is very un-realistic.
It was bad last year, but it’s worse this year. Players are getting less creative and forcing the same play, every play. It’s becoming frustrating and boring. Our eashl team has 50-12-2 record, so this isn’t coming from me complaining about losing all the time.
Yup this cross creases is causes panic the game can't handle. Never ever experience such a chaos among the player base as I do now. I dont even push back, if they wanna win that way, im not going to stop you, play hockey, and im in for it.
Hehe would be fun to see % on how many cross creases thats been made sence realese.
Almost that the goalies to good in other areas so people have lost their faith of scoring in any other way. They rather stop on a breakaway and wait for one to come...
Something we've had a lot of feedback on here is making the game more sim and having less automated actions so that personal skill is more important. It would seem having interceptions be less automated would align with that. Would you guys rather defense be more manual and dependent on skill or would you rather have interceptions be more automated and just need you to be in the passing lane?
What kind of skill other than being in the right positions do you want the defense to do with pass interceptions, Aljo? Please don't tell me poke checking or using the DSS. That's not intercepting the puck, that's just swiping it away.
Good question, maybe we need an interception button?
Edit: I noticed there were tons of replies posted already when I wrote that...but idea still remains.
Replies
I get what you're saying. I was just trying to get some feedback on the sim side of things as people here have been asking for more the game to require more manual input over automation. I know the dev team is aware of the complaints about interceptions so it's possible this could be adjusted in a future update. We'll have to wait and see if that happens.
I can get behind a more manual way of intercepting/breaking up passes. The current "get in position and pray" model is frustrating at best, and has only been made more so this year.
My caveat is that whatever form the mechanic takes( right stick, button press, etc ), it should be at the same level of difficulty to pull off as one-timers are for offense. If one-timers can be done by just flicking up the right stick as the puck is coming then breaking up the pass should be just as easy.
I get you. I wouldn't mind more manual inputs at all, Aljo. My whole shtick is balance and fairness. If you're going to manual the D, then you have to do the same thing for the forwards. Less accurate passes on the backhand, less automatic perfect receptions of fast passes, less success of dekes in traffics, less success of dekes in succession, less automatic micro-puck battles, less puck magnet and more randomness. These are some of the things that levels the playing field and will build more of a skill gap for both offense and defense. This game has been tilted with so much offense that it feels less like a sim and more like a speedy arcade game like in the N54 Wayne Gretzky hockey days.
I would sincerely hope the answer to this question is obvious.
That being said, I understand EA wants balance, and not everyone who picks this game up wants the burden of being responsible for every single element of defending.
I was a big advocate of changing the DSS tripping sensitivity last year and it never was changed. I’d encourage the dev team to keep the state of interceptions the same for longer than a week.
We can’t have a community that complains about offense being OP and not requiring skill while simultaneously asking for auto interceptions for every single pass ever, especially when you get an unrealistic view of the whole play at any given second.
I’m being genuine when I say that I haven’t experienced much issue in pass interceptions. As I’ve stated before on these forums over the years, you need to be in a gliding state while not holding LT for maximum pass interception success rate. I am using the smallest PMD possible and have genuinely not had a single pass get through me where I could say I was in a gliding state, read the play completely right, and was not holding LT. Every single pass where I’ve played “zone” and abided by these rules, I’ve made a clean interception. In situations where I knew that wasn’t going to be possible, I used the DSS to put my stick where I thought the shot was going to be released from to get the incidental contact disruption, or I’ve relied on incidental body contact and literally skated into the guy to disrupt the pass, or I’ve actually performed a RS shove without penalty, I’ve also used the hold “A” tie up to disrupt, simple stick lift, or I used LB/RB+LB to block or lay down to breakup the passing lane.
I will say that I’ve seen a puck clip right through LB which is a legitimate gripe, but that’s the only time I’ve felt I truly didn’t have control of the situation. The not holding LT + glide state thing has been a thing since old-gen NHL. The people that genuinely know how to feather their LT+LS and make small adjustments up until the pass will have a lot more success with interceptions this year. With how effective DSS is (especially the R3 manual poke) and how everyone always sees the whole play, this is a needed change to promote more on-puck defense and less reliance on auto-animations to open the 6s games up. 6s has been unplayable for two years straight due to how incredibly boring it was, and 21 has actually made defense fun again. You feel like an active participant, and with good team defense, you are still not going to give up a ton of goals. Just gotta change the approach to the game this year. Strong-side needs to put a little more pressure on, weakside has to stay a little closer to the receiver.
I think the defensive state of the game is more than fine. I’m actually liking the experience. Having an active stick is fun and rewarding! This doesn’t mean I think the game is perfect, it doesn’t mean I think that offense doesn’t need some nerfs, but I genuinely have not liked playing online defense this much since NHL 16 which was an insanely easy game for good defenseman. I find myself almost “revis islanding” the right side of the ice right now with my ability to use DSS to mitigate the speed of the rush and disrupt the rush entirely with early pokes due to me anticipating their path before they even make it.
This is a 100% more enjoyable “forced adaption” than the previous “don’t poke or you’ll take someone out” change from last year, and it’s also 100% easier to workaround imo. I genuinely have not had a pass go through when I can genuinely say I played that play correctly from a video game standpoint which I’ve articulated earlier.
Long answer short, let the community be mad and adapt a bit. Please don’t panic, people will learn.This isn’t a bad change. This is a true skill gap. We’re seeing a community who over-relied on automation struggling to adapt to a change which requires just a little more skill and anticipation. Even that little extra room for error has provided a huge skill gap, and one that’s easily learned, makes sense, and balances out the overlooked aspect of “we get to see the whole play at every second” part of playing video game hockey. It’s like the movie Top Gun explaining why the Top Gun program exists. American fighter pilots over-relied upon heat-seeking ATA misses and as a result, saw their dogfighting effectiveness decrease. Same thing here. Pass intercepts have coddled the community for years and years, it’s going to be pulling teeth for the first few weeks, but I think it’s a necessary change to open the 6s game up and force defenders into making actually difficult decisions and reads.
Bingo. Well said.
For the record, every time you try to prove a point with a clip that's not 6v6 EASHL and a 1v1 mode that's full of AI, slower, less lag, and easier to perform actions, you're not proving a point.
1) Why would I not poke check when there's a puck right in front of me? When the stick clearly clips through the puck on what should've been an easy poke, but draws a trip even though the player is too close to receive one. Why are you critiquing my decision making and completely ignoring that it simply should have worked? The forward turns towards the boards like most forwards do when they're pressured, because it was a safety net in 20. There isn't even stick on skate contact to warrant a trip.
I'll explain what's going on here. Forwards love to zig-zag when they get close, due to the usual half-second lag. It makes poking and DSSing difficult. One of my favorite tactics is I like to let them get the first fake, because more than likely, they will try for a fake the other way and skate right back into you if you slow down enough so they don't zag in front of you, but into you. Lo and behold, that's what happens!
He skates right into my hit which does absolutely nothing. At this point, once again, the forward's auto actions take over. BTW, where you're telling me to stick lift will result in no stick lift. Mostly nothing or a penalty. I'm still too far. This is new for 21. In-close lifts are better.
Anyway, we get into this micro-stick fight that's out of both of our hands, but if you look closely, I DO stick lift and it's successful. I am even between the defender and the puck.
The forward is separated, I'm facing him and he's perfectly boxed out. Because of the forward's auto-reach, he regains the puck with the reach in a a completely awkward looking animation. If this was the sim this was meant to be, the in-close shove should have stumbled him, but he shrugs it off.
From start to finish my actions were:
0) Time my actions to compensate for the lag (All game, really)
1) Gap control.
2) Anticipate the zig-zag.
3) Initiate the hit.
4) Stay parallel to him.
6) Initiate the stick lift.
6) Initiate the hit.
From start to finish his actions were:
0) Skate.
1) Right, left, right.
2) Skate.
3) Auto-pickup the puck.
All while this is happening, every action I do makes my player slow down while his player remains in this constant glide. Again, this is the disparity between offense and defense.
3) Sorry. I have perfect gap control here. I am not beat by the forward, but by the overly aggressive offensive automatic puck pick up. The forward has to do nothing here but just keep skating in a straight line and he's rewarded. There's a stick lift here. It's why you see the forward momentarily loose the puck. The forward hustles right into my back and the puck is even in front of me. There's barely any puck separation and he's not even slowed down with the contact.
Also, I can't stop moving because when you stick lift, you momentarily don't have control of your player. You lose control AND you lose speed. The forward doesn't deke, he doesn't move, he doesn't puck protect, he simply keeps skating forward while the auto-reach does his job for him.
4) What gap?? The puck clips through my arm, much like it clips through 50 other things in 21. You can watch the path right through the body in the gif.
5) More clipping. The clipping is horrendous and is more egregious in 21 than 20. It's something that EA absolutely needs to get right, especially if you won't correctly model stick on body physics. One of the most frustrating things for a defender for years is that if they are in good position to impede a player's stick on the shot, the player will still shoot through the defender as if he's not even there and get full power on the shot instead of a shanked shot. The stick clipping through the stick is one thing, through the stick and pads is just... no.
Anyway, no need to even respond. Keep doing you and I'll keep fighting for a better game.
I agree with everything you're saying. Anyone who disagrees with what you're showing is clearly just going out of their way to prove you wrong by being absolutely ridiculous.
The players who are saying the players complaining are used to automation are the players who clearly benefit from the automation of passes going through forced and every one timer going in..of course they don't want it to change.
Anyone who says being in the passing lane AND facing the player the pass is coming from isn't enough to intercept the pass is clearly benefiting and being rewarded for just forcing these passes. It's so dumb.
[Socair - edited quote]
Well I’m a full-time defenseman so I’m definitely not the one benefitting from these underpowered interception levels.
To your second point, I actually used those exact words to describe when it SHOULD be an interception. I still think “in the lane” lacks a lot of context though and doesn’t adequately cover all scenarios. I’ve seen many real life NHL goals scored due to passing it through defenders who were “in the lane” so again, the debate isn’t as simple at you’re making it out to be.
That's a fair statement. Definitely appreciate the feedback.
@untouchable_BF1
Nicely said. I too have been enjoying defense more. I've played D almost exclusively from day 1 and it's been more enjoyable in 21 than in recent years. I haven't been focusing on interceptions so much as I've changed my playstyle to pressure the carrier more and break up plays with DSS. That has been working really well and is a lot more fun than just hanging out in passing lanes waiting for an auto-intercept. Builds with a lower defensive awareness stat will have a harder time with interceptions.
I know the dev team is keeping an eye on this, but they also want to give the community time to adapt before making changes. The idea is to make manual defense more important than playing passive. So far, it's feeling like that is working, but we'll keep monitoring community feedback.
I just think it's very clear that automation benefits the offensive player way more than a defensive player.. in eashl I only play forward and in ovp I'm 7-2-1, but every game the only move my opponent makes is forcing cross crease for one timers and it works way too much.
Why do goalies never adapt ? If 8/10 shot attempts the opponent is only trying to force one timers, shouldn't the goalie stop it since passes go through defenders in position ? Lol just seems like common sense that there is a lack of balance.
That’s great to hear. I’m glad they’ve tried to make this game much more skill-based. It’s made me actually play an online game and want to continue playing online! Genuinely surprised and impressed.
I can’t speak for OVP, I won’t touch 1v1 modes online with a hundred foot pole. They’re just not enjoyable to me. I think those modes will naturally have a lot more complaints about the forced passes as your AI players play such a critical role in giving up chances. I don’t think the AI is good enough at maintaining their assignments in those modes, so I can definitely see your complaints there.
My POV is specifically in reference to 3s and 6s. I think when everyone is human controlled, the interceptions and over meta are in pretty good states.
I'm telling you right now, if you were a defensemen that only frequents this forum, you'd think you were taking crazy pills having to always constantly explain why the defense feels gimped year after year, while a plethora of cool, new, toys keeping rolling out for the offense. It's like having to race a WRX with an 4-Cyl Outback, and then the next year, you get the same Outback w/Turbo and the offense brings a Lambo.
Luckily, I always seek feedback from other places. HF, Reddit, LG, ERA, etc. People that like to play D are mostly in agreeance that there are changes that need to be made, and that there are issues with playing the position.
NHL 21 rewards weak forwards. It’s incredibly simple to score this goal on every 2v1. The puck should have a lot more trouble getting through. How does the puck not hit the defender taking the lane away? It’s straight through 99% of the time, when in reality a clean pass without any disruption at best is 50/50.
If the offensive team has zone control and you let a pass get out front then yes, punish the defenders. But don’t punish good defenders having good position on 2v1s. Tone the success rate down. People who are terrible at this game are scoring 7 goals on 10 shots, it’s ridiculous.
So if you trying to hold on to the puck and pass around, take some shots here and there, the risk is high that you will get overruned by that power of speed.
It feels right know abit, like opponent's that dont have a clue what there doing, is winning games in the very same way.
But this has been the number one tactic for a long time, it's just that it's never been so clear as it is now.
But this has been the number one tactic for a long time, it's just that it's never been so clear as it is now. [/quote]
Agreed, it has always been the go to, and should be. And it is easily exploited this year. If the pass gets through, the puck should go in. Although the puck should not get through 99% of the time. Defensemen are taught to obstruct the pass the best they can without committing too much to either player unless it’s a for sure thing. In this game you either have to take the puck carrier out before he passes, or completely give up on him and commit completely to obstructing the open man. There’s very little chance in this game that your intercepting a pass, or at the very least deflecting it or making it more difficult. This is very un-realistic.
It was bad last year, but it’s worse this year. Players are getting less creative and forcing the same play, every play. It’s becoming frustrating and boring. Our eashl team has 50-12-2 record, so this isn’t coming from me complaining about losing all the time.
Yup this cross creases is causes panic the game can't handle. Never ever experience such a chaos among the player base as I do now. I dont even push back, if they wanna win that way, im not going to stop you, play hockey, and im in for it.
Almost that the goalies to good in other areas so people have lost their faith of scoring in any other way. They rather stop on a breakaway and wait for one to come...
Edit: I noticed there were tons of replies posted already when I wrote that...but idea still remains.