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Passinng and Interception

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  • Last year the mantra was stay in position or get burned. Now it is complete oppisite... Why not make both defensive styles viable? Play position and take the passing lanes out or high risk/reward aggressive checking? Both are hockey.
  • Greyinsi wrote: »
    Last year the mantra was stay in position or get burned. Now it is complete oppisite... Why not make both defensive styles viable? Play position and take the passing lanes out or high risk/reward aggressive checking? Both are hockey.

    How is it the complete opposite? If you just sprint at someone, they have more tools than ever to side-step you. If you are actually extremely passive and gliding in-front, you will make interceptions and have success, but most people are always moving the LS and holding LT which has zero room for error this year. Small adjustments at the wrong time will lead to passes getting through.

    So, it actually does promote both styles of hockey. The strong-side man is encouraged more than ever to attack the puck carrier and take away time and space. The weakside dman more than ever needs to stay with their man and correctly anticipate where the pass can go so that they’re in the proper state to intercept the puck when inevitably gets to them. If the strong-side man is beat, 2-on-1’s actually require a decision this year, so you’re not going to want to give them up.

    Defense this year is more dynamic and situational-dependent than any other 6s game we’ve had. I’m totally serious. I’ve played them all. What you’re asking for already exists.
  • CUBS
    18 posts Member
    You simply can’t defend 2 on 1’s in 3s every single time by attacking the carrier. 6s last year wasn’t fun to move the puck in traffic at all there was no point in making a risky pass to hope it got through it was a wasted possession. There is no happy medium here they need to be tuned for the styles of both modes individually.
  • To clarify, I am actually pleased with 1 on 1 defense. I'm cool with the pokes and dss this year and can handle the slow turn speed.

    But when someone else on my team is playing good d against a guy and I am covering my off-puck assignment like a glove, that puckhandler shouldn't be able to panic chuck a pass through me with 50% success when I'm in the perfect spot to play it.

    I'm also not just a grumpy d man. I sign up for skater with randoms or friends because I play every position. As a forward, I am successfully able force through way too many passes, to the point that our group is just laughing at the nonsense goals.

    Go spend a game actually trying to turn over your passes, its difficult to pull off.
  • Ok. I’m usually gliding and holding LT so im squared to puck. I remember that some dev told that you need to be squared to puck so you will be ready to receive it. Maybe that is why everything goes through me. It just sounds completely backwards not holding LT, but maybe I’ll try it.
  • TheMajjam wrote: »
    You should not have to face a pass to intercept. Angles should be taken into consideration. If it is within the vision of your player, and is within the range of your stick, there should be an interception or disruption. Defensive awareness should be accounted for as well. No unrealistic grabs. All the talk about "passive" intercepts shouldn't be happening, but tell me how realistic is it that forwards zoom up the ice and perfectly receive laser passes each and every time. Or how the backhand pass is actually more accurate and FASTER than a forehand pass.

    Wanting some offensive accountability and defensive accountability aren’t mutually exclusive. The offense 100% needs nerfs but we can’t ignore how easy playing defense was when you could literally just stand still from almost any angle in front of the net and expect an interception. The DSS works this year, there’s no reason for the strong-side Dman to NOT be forcing a pass to a relatively expected area (read: weakside defender should have more than enough awareness to get to the land, release LT, glide, get the puck).

    I’m a full-time Dman, have been since EASHL was first a thing in 09, and I am not finding the state of interceptions to be literally unplayable atm. Tripping sensitivity made playing last year literally unplayable for me. Took no skill, didn’t involve doing much other than gliding and standing in the middle of the icee 99% of the time. This year, I find myself driving play, breaking up rushes in the NZ, attacking carrier like I haven’t been able to before, and getting interceptions when needed by following my simple rules to pass interceptions.

    Trust me, the backhanded pass speeds and the backhand hold-out but forehand pass behind the back somehow passes drive me nuts. Those should be so much slower and less accurate than a proper forehand pass, but it doesn’t make the intercept change bad.

    We have the skating ability and incidental contact ability to be effective on defense without needing to rely on auto animations as much as we did last year, unlike 14 where pass interceptions were nerfed and we all had to suffer a year of zero defense as TPS didn’t allow us to make the small adjustments required to play proper defense.

    I’ve been a huge advocate of defense being an active participant in this board for many years. I share a lot of your beliefs on offensive nerfs, I wasn’t someone who said defense was in a good state last year, yet here I am saying how much fun I’m having in 21. All I’m saying is, switch up your approach a bit and give it a chance. I am seeing interceptions this year playing “zone” defense, it just has literally zero room for error when it comes to holding LT or making an adjustment. Keep that in mind, and I’m sure you’ll start seeing more consistent results.

    I think a lot of people misinterpret my gripes with the game because they think it isn't working for me and/or I haven't adapted. Like 20, I have easily adapted. I am very good at my position. I make it work and I will still continue gripe when I make it work. My aim is not to be provided a crutch as a D-man, but to stop this defensive bleeding that continues to occur in each year in the game where the defense, never the offense, needs to adapt to constant, often extreme changes. Why is it the defense that always requires some kind of a magical skill gap? Hm?

  • Grr. Touch. Just realized that about two paragraphs addressing your points was cut off. I'm back on mobile now so I'll try and respond to them later when I can.
  • TheMajjam wrote: »
    the defense, never the offense, needs to adapt to constant, often extreme changes. Why is it the defense that always requires some kind of a magical skill gap? Hm?

    I believe the tools introduced to defenders (DSS, stick lift, tie-ups, etc) naturally require more practice and skill to master than the offensive side of the puck (shooting, passing).

    So any changes EA makes to the tools defenders use will require a period of adaptation.

    The game hasn't officially been out a week yet - and we're talking about how interceptions need to be 'nerfed'.

    I think we should let the current state of affairs play itself out and allow the community to adapt.

    My fear is that the 'influencers' - despite claiming they want a 'realistic' game - will not take time to adapt to the new defensive reality and will whip the hivemind up in to a frenzy via social media and force EA's hand to buff interceptions - resulting in players being able to continue passively defending paying minimal price to not understanding how to defend actively.
  • CUBS wrote: »
    You simply can’t defend 2 on 1’s in 3s every single time by attacking the carrier. 6s last year wasn’t fun to move the puck in traffic at all there was no point in making a risky pass to hope it got through it was a wasted possession. There is no happy medium here they need to be tuned for the styles of both modes individually.

    Of course you won’t break up every 2-on-1 attacking the carrier. You need to feather both LT and LS to make small adjustments while always giving small gaps of no input. The key is to time the gaps of no input to match when the pass is delivered.
    jrago73 wrote: »
    To clarify, I am actually pleased with 1 on 1 defense. I'm cool with the pokes and dss this year and can handle the slow turn speed.

    But when someone else on my team is playing good d against a guy and I am covering my off-puck assignment like a glove, that puckhandler shouldn't be able to panic chuck a pass through me with 50% success when I'm in the perfect spot to play it.

    I'm also not just a grumpy d man. I sign up for skater with randoms or friends because I play every position. As a forward, I am successfully able force through way too many passes, to the point that our group is just laughing at the nonsense goals.

    Go spend a game actually trying to turn over your passes, its difficult to pull off.

    I’ve literally only played D in 21 so far in online games as a PMD and have been much more successful than 50% on pass interceptions.
    TheMajjam wrote: »
    TheMajjam wrote: »
    You should not have to face a pass to intercept. Angles should be taken into consideration. If it is within the vision of your player, and is within the range of your stick, there should be an interception or disruption. Defensive awareness should be accounted for as well. No unrealistic grabs. All the talk about "passive" intercepts shouldn't be happening, but tell me how realistic is it that forwards zoom up the ice and perfectly receive laser passes each and every time. Or how the backhand pass is actually more accurate and FASTER than a forehand pass.

    Wanting some offensive accountability and defensive accountability aren’t mutually exclusive. The offense 100% needs nerfs but we can’t ignore how easy playing defense was when you could literally just stand still from almost any angle in front of the net and expect an interception. The DSS works this year, there’s no reason for the strong-side Dman to NOT be forcing a pass to a relatively expected area (read: weakside defender should have more than enough awareness to get to the land, release LT, glide, get the puck).

    I’m a full-time Dman, have been since EASHL was first a thing in 09, and I am not finding the state of interceptions to be literally unplayable atm. Tripping sensitivity made playing last year literally unplayable for me. Took no skill, didn’t involve doing much other than gliding and standing in the middle of the icee 99% of the time. This year, I find myself driving play, breaking up rushes in the NZ, attacking carrier like I haven’t been able to before, and getting interceptions when needed by following my simple rules to pass interceptions.

    Trust me, the backhanded pass speeds and the backhand hold-out but forehand pass behind the back somehow passes drive me nuts. Those should be so much slower and less accurate than a proper forehand pass, but it doesn’t make the intercept change bad.

    We have the skating ability and incidental contact ability to be effective on defense without needing to rely on auto animations as much as we did last year, unlike 14 where pass interceptions were nerfed and we all had to suffer a year of zero defense as TPS didn’t allow us to make the small adjustments required to play proper defense.

    I’ve been a huge advocate of defense being an active participant in this board for many years. I share a lot of your beliefs on offensive nerfs, I wasn’t someone who said defense was in a good state last year, yet here I am saying how much fun I’m having in 21. All I’m saying is, switch up your approach a bit and give it a chance. I am seeing interceptions this year playing “zone” defense, it just has literally zero room for error when it comes to holding LT or making an adjustment. Keep that in mind, and I’m sure you’ll start seeing more consistent results.

    I think a lot of people misinterpret my gripes with the game because they think it isn't working for me and/or I haven't adapted. Like 20, I have easily adapted. I am very good at my position. I make it work and I will still continue gripe when I make it work. My aim is not to be provided a crutch as a D-man, but to stop this defensive bleeding that continues to occur in each year in the game where the defense, never the offense, needs to adapt to constant, often extreme changes. Why is it the defense that always requires some kind of a magical skill gap? Hm?

    First off, I’m not saying you’re bad at the game. I know you’re not. I was simply giving you my experience and telling you what’s worked for me as I’m apparently the crazy guy here who is not experiencing an overwhelming amount of forced passes. Sometimes, a fresh approach and an open-mind can make you not necessarily change your mind, but understand where I’m coming from. That’s all.

    Anyway, again I’m not seeing an overwhelming amount of missed pass interceptions when I’m gliding, facing the puck, and not holding LT. I did say either in this thread or another that I’d like to see pass interceptions when holding LT be more consistent. I am trying to meet you in the middle here. I think there’s little things that can be improved, but globally buffing pass interceptions might be an overreaction from my experience. I agree with all of the passing nerfs you’ve brought up. I agree that the attacker should’ve have something that makes receiving cross-crease one-timers a lot harder (maybe bug nerfs to pass reception ease?) but I don’t think interceptions are in a terrible state. Would love to see small tweaks before we buff it back to 19-20 levels again.

    It’s such a hard balance because we can see the whole play the whole time. There isn’t a lot of “reads” you can make poorly (and I’m leaving out incompetent players for this discussion as they’re so far from competitive that I’m really not concerned about their skill gap compared to competent players...they’re behind enough lol) so how do we promote a skill gap defensively? Disregard offense and their abilities for now, just focus on defense. If we want a skill gap, do we really think a hypothetical 180 degree vision cone + good enough attribute level = fun and challenging skill gap? That’s it? Stand in the lane and pick a build with good DA? Great, you stood in the middle and your guy turned his head and you held LT + LS down and boom, great play. How does a system like that differentiate players like you and me who are competent players? It doesn’t, and that’s what we saw in 19/20. It’s boring. There’s a reason offense was buffed, it was because defense was heavily reliant on auto-animations and standing still.

    This is why I think this change is one for the better. If I have to feather LT + LS, face the puck, and time my adjustments so that they don’t happen when the puck is released, that’s a lot of skill and play recognition that goes into that interception. If I don’t think I’ll be able to do that, I need to go to plan B which can be anything from DSS to a dive, block pass, stick lift, shove, or incidental contact. The speed of the play forced me to read that I was in trouble and adapt. Again, that’s a skill gap. Players that just hold LT and backup are now forced to be active.

    The next step, and it’s probably a big reason why so many people hate interceptions right now, is forcing offensive players to make similar decisions. You can’t make a 100 foot backhand pass. You can’t hold the puck out to your backhand and laser a forehand pass behind your back somehow. You can’t just skate up the wall and warp through/disregard the defenseman applying force on you into the wall anymore. You can’t laser passes from five feet away and expect clean receptions. I’m all for those changes! 100% but I can’t actively believe in nerfing their assistance while requesting a ton of assistance for my position as that would contradict my belief that this game needs much more skill involved in having success.

    So, I’m standing up for this change as a true change to the overall meta. Obviously defensemen were going to be the first to whether the storm, we always are, but if we can learn to adapt and enjoy a game that requires more skill, it should be that much easier to expect/request that offense is held to the same standards. If we simply say “pass interceptions are bad because of the offensive tools and lack of accountability” then we simply end up in a vicious cycle of both positions having accountability removed and the meta never changing for the better. 21 is far superior as a defenseman for me than any other game this generation. It’s fun, it takes skill, it makes you appreciate good defensemen compared to even average ones. I would hope that this direction continues to the forward position and it’s why I will firmly continue advocating for a meta that promotes more skill than less, because I believe both were in a bad state for the last few games. Great start with the defensemen in 21, nows the time for forward accountability.

    And I’m not saying your wrong or don’t believe in similar things, I’m simply articulating my position so that you can see where I’m coming from and why I don’t believe simply buffing pass interceptions will make this game better for the long run.
  • KidShowtime1867
    1297 posts Member
    edited October 21
    If I have to feather LT + LS, face the puck, and time my adjustments so that they don’t happen when the puck is released, that’s a lot of skill and play recognition that goes into that interception. If I don’t think I’ll be able to do that, I need to go to plan B which can be anything from DSS to a dive, block pass, stick lift, shove, or incidental contact. The speed of the play forced me to read that I was in trouble and adapt. Again, that’s a skill gap. Players that just hold LT and backup are now forced to be active.

    This sums up the current state of defending quite nicely.
  • If I have to feather LT + LS, face the puck, and time my adjustments so that they don’t happen when the puck is released, that’s a lot of skill and play recognition that goes into that interception. If I don’t think I’ll be able to do that, I need to go to plan B which can be anything from DSS to a dive, block pass, stick lift, shove, or incidental contact. The speed of the play forced me to read that I was in trouble and adapt. Again, that’s a skill gap. Players that just hold LT and backup are now forced to be active.

    This sums up the current state of defending quite nicely.

    I think so too. I think there’s 100 different things that could affect or change the outcome of these “forced passes” that don’t involve universally buffing pass interceptions. If we want this game to move forward, we need to think outside the box a little haha.
  • If I have to feather LT + LS, face the puck, and time my adjustments so that they don’t happen when the puck is released, that’s a lot of skill and play recognition that goes into that interception. If I don’t think I’ll be able to do that, I need to go to plan B which can be anything from DSS to a dive, block pass, stick lift, shove, or incidental contact. The speed of the play forced me to read that I was in trouble and adapt. Again, that’s a skill gap. Players that just hold LT and backup are now forced to be active.

    This sums up the current state of defending quite nicely.

    I think so too. I think there’s 100 different things that could affect or change the outcome of these “forced passes” that don’t involve universally buffing pass interceptions. If we want this game to move forward, we need to think outside the box a little haha.

    What other solutions are you thinking of?

    I'll give this no-LT intercepting a go in my next session.
  • For the first time it's finaly feels worth it to always have played my own D.. I get something in return..

    This is my own experience against other players in 20..(maybe even back to 15)..but it wasen't many of them that actually played defense.. It was more stand still or just push for a hit. Not so fun to play against.

    And if the same people that did that, now have to all of the sudden, learn to play defense in a way they never did before, of course it's going to be hard, from the beginning. But I hope that eventually people will feel that this is the way, much more satisfying once it all click.
  • Sega82mega
    1924 posts Member
    edited October 21
    TheMajjam wrote: »
    You should not have to face a pass to intercept. Angles should be taken into consideration. If it is within the vision of your player, and is within the range of your stick, there should be an interception or disruption. Defensive awareness should be accounted for as well. No unrealistic grabs. All the talk about "passive" intercepts shouldn't be happening, but tell me how realistic is it that forwards zoom up the ice and perfectly receive laser passes each and every time. Or how the backhand pass is actually more accurate and FASTER than a forehand pass.



    Trust me, the backhanded pass speeds and the backhand hold-out but forehand pass behind the back somehow passes drive me nuts. Those should be so much slower and less accurate than a proper forehand pass, but it doesn’t make the intercept change bad.

    Again.. But maybe im crazy, but I think a fix of that would do sooo much for this game. Perhaps the one thing that gets to me the most.. Glide-deke-put it on backhand- smack - a dish on the tape.

    Maybe lower the speed of passes would be enough, wouldn’t be as easy to 'force through' rockets.

    Im not a big fan of the charging the pass button.. I wish there was some other way.. It goes hand in hand with full speed and full charged pass.. = fast game pace
  • jrago73 wrote: »
    If I have to feather LT + LS, face the puck, and time my adjustments so that they don’t happen when the puck is released, that’s a lot of skill and play recognition that goes into that interception. If I don’t think I’ll be able to do that, I need to go to plan B which can be anything from DSS to a dive, block pass, stick lift, shove, or incidental contact. The speed of the play forced me to read that I was in trouble and adapt. Again, that’s a skill gap. Players that just hold LT and backup are now forced to be active.

    This sums up the current state of defending quite nicely.

    I think so too. I think there’s 100 different things that could affect or change the outcome of these “forced passes” that don’t involve universally buffing pass interceptions. If we want this game to move forward, we need to think outside the box a little haha.

    What other solutions are you thinking of?

    I'll give this no-LT intercepting a go in my next session.

    So my offline sliders involves setting the pass reception ease slider to 0. It’s necessary and barely does anything with AE at 5/10 which is the online default. Then, I up puck speed effect and reaction time effect by a bit, largely increase the pickup type effect and puck control rating effect sliders, and also lower the bouncing puck receptions to around 35 making it harder to catch bouncing pucks. These changes make having a good receiver necessary to complete tough passes. It cuts down the cross-crease effectiveness without even touching the pass interceptions slider. Does it make routine passes hard? Not really, but they’re definitely not automatic. It also makes you think about your pass charge/speed because whipped-in “Hail Mary” passes are going to be very tough to control, especially for receivers on their backhand. It severely punished you for reaching and receiving, especially back handed, and makes bouncing puck receptions a lot less consistent leading to more scrambles and also mitigating the attacking team’s ability to score on a puck pickup off of a bad bounce. Lastly, a true gap of shot accuracy is needed to differentiate between good shooters and bad. I rock 40/50 one-timer accuracy offline and I find that to be a pretty good spot. Online default is 50, meaning almost every pass that gets through is shot on-net. Reducing the accuracy there would also encourage less one-timers from states where you’re driving the net, and encourage gathering your feet for a one-timer like an Ovi office 1T. Are all of these changes the answer or right? Probably not, I’m biased. Are all of these settings worth testing before simply jacking up “pass interceptions” though? I’d argue 100% yes. The interception level is only one component of the entire play that leads to a forced pass. Those sliders I mentioned put the accountability on the forwards in the same way I’m asking for defensemen to have accountability. Holding RT to full charge and making one pass isn’t a skilled play, especially if you’re not a playmaker passing and you don’t have an elite shooter driving the net. Classes would matter, knowing your teammates would matter, using the correct pass speed would matter.

    The one change of the defensive side of the puck that I wouldn’t hate would be an “under-the-hood” change to lowering the effect (if there is any) holding LT has on your ability to intercept passes would also make the current state better without fundamentally changing the goal of the current state which is to have defensemen play tighter to their assignments in all aspects of the game. The passive clump killed real hockey in the 90’s and it killed 6s the last two years. We need to move on from the era of coddled pass interceptions and start demanding more from supposed “elite” defenders.
  • TheMajjam
    794 posts Member
    edited October 21
    Alright @untouchable_BF1 @EA_Blueberry @EA_Aljo Let me preface by saying I am going to be throwing some stats out there, so please don't be offended by them. Some people are, but I like to show them so others know that I practice what I preach and it can be backed up with stats.

    I'm going to try to address the interceptions and this really odd notion of "passive" vs "active" defense should be the end all, be all way of playing defense. I'm going to approach this as logically as I can.

    My club is a balanced club first and foremost. We see what we like to play as individuals, then edit to make sure we compliment each other as a team. If you were to take our make up, our C is a bigger, agile player that can make room in the O zone, but can push people out of the way in the D zone. He can covery the slot well. Our RW is a middle of the road, offensive geared player. Our LW is our quarterback. He's small, agile, can carry the puck, and can deke very well around the D. He's a Playmaker, so he passes more than he scores. I'm a PMD. I like to get the puck up quick, I like to be quick, and I like a good stick. My D partner is a TWD with size and a good stick. We found out a long time ago that this make up is better than having 3-4 Snipers on a team that just overblow offense, of which we have seen and absolutely crush.

    We're a defensive first team and like to turn good defense into great offense. We like to wait for our opponents to make the mistakes first, then capitalize. Because of this, our 6's EASHL club is #1 on 20 in terms of goals for vs goals against. We scored 2,486 more goals than we gave up in 969 games. We. Know. Defense. I cannot state this enough.

    I'm pushing acknowledging team defense, but I'm going to focus on me and me usual D partner in crime.

    Here's my D-man makeup.

    aDZNEdC.png

    Looking at these stats, by definition, I have resigned myself to be a positional defensive player. A passive player. High defensive awareness, great discipline, and a good stick. I'm able to keep up with streaking forwards on the rush and can shift very well in my own zone to be where I need to be in accordance with the puck. I sacrifice a lot of offense to be a playermaker in terms of getting the puck out of my zone and starting the rush.

    Here's my partner's makeup.

    g1Daw5u.png

    Looking at his stats, by definition, he has resigned himself to being a slower, active, physical defensive player. He is VERY high defensive-mindedly, can hit/push/shove players off the puck, and is a great body in front of the net when he needs to challenge players and the puck. Whether through hits or tie-ups. His stick should absolutely be a hindrance for forwards that love to just hustle right into you in a straight line.

    All in all, we compliment each other and know what roles we have to play on the ice. We take a logical step towards this by not over-compensating our builds, and with the way the forwards drop back, can mount an excellent defensive strategy.

    My gripe with pass interceptions is that they happen too often, and it's more or less helped by the auto-mechanic of forwards, the asinine pass speed and accuracy, as well as the lack of proper stick/body physics. A lot more often than 20, that's for sure. I have literally built my player around being able to anticipate the pass and breaking up plays, because EA built these tools into the game. If there were no classes and all players were created equal, I would absolutely buy what this game is selling right now, but we are given classes to tailor our own experience and to combat what our opponent's classes are. You guys are now saying that not taking passing lanes away and needing to be more aggressive against the puck carrier is the way to play defense. Let me ask you this...

    Why do you want me to play this way when I have been given the tools to play my way, have the stats to play my way, only to be told I need to play a certain way because the mechanics want me to play a certain way? Isn't this same way of thinking what we were trying to get away from in 20? Where the only right way to play was to be an incidental contact pylon?

    I know if I play this aggressive way you guys keep peddling, I will lose battles because my player is not GEARED to play this way. My partner certainly is. Again, he is the active man and I am the passive man. Our C and RW are active, my LW is passive. I'm not asking for me to be a hitting machine, should win every puck battle, and intercept every pass, but expecting the laws of physics to work in a game that pings itself as a sim should be a priority.

    Here's a fact. In the many games I have played in EASHL so far, there have been more pass interceptions by forwards on either team than there are by D-men. Especially in the neutral zone. Panic passes by forwards in the D-zone through oodles of traffic are giving a buff to the one-timer travesty going on right now. Intercepts need a buff. Not everyone needs them, but I expect if I am going to use a perk called Interceptor that tanks my other stats for the sake of being compliant in several others, if I'm in position, facing, and expecting a pass that's on the ice, as well as have the Defensive Awareness to do something about it, I should absolutely be able to either intercept or at least disrupt it. That's not happening right now. It's a step down from 20. As much as you tell me I need the skill to intercept, so should the forwards need to be the same in making those passes. It's become even more of a one-trick pony show for forwards where the meta are one-timers for days. Not well passed one-timers either, but these rudimentary plays that leave you thinking, why am I even playing D? A pylon could do a better job stopping some of this crap. Forcing passes. Relying on the auto-pickups to do the work for you as a forward. All these things compound into frustration. Especially when you know the game can do better.

    Now let me tell you what I DO like as a defensemen. I still think pokes need work, but they are much better than 20. The DSS is better. They still significantly slow down your player, though. I enjoy more loose puck battles, but there needs to be more randomness. If a player's stick clips through another player's body then there should be more than a half-second loss of possession that winds up being an insta-recovery for the player that lost the puck (Again, auto-recovery, auto-reach, and micro-stick battles are the cause of this). Also, the puck shouldn't just die, but continue on the trajectory of that player unless it hits something. The puck magnet is still there and clean pokes still want pucks to magnet back to the players stick.

    That's it. Honestly, there isn't much more I can say on the subject.
    Post edited by TheMajjam on
  • > @untouchable_BF1 said:
    > (Quote)
    >
    > This is why I think this change is one for the better. If I have to feather LT + LS, face the puck, and time my adjustments so that they don’t happen when the puck is released, that’s a lot of skill and play recognition that goes into that interception. If I don’t think I’ll be able to do that, I need to go to plan B which can be anything from DSS to a dive, block pass, stick lift, shove, or incidental contact. The speed of the play forced me to read that I was in trouble and adapt. Again, that’s a skill gap. Players that just hold LT and backup are now forced to be active.
    >


    In theory that’s exactly how it should work but they’re all mechanics that we’ve been trained not to use because of the penalty risk of them. And the systems designed for them aren’t implemented the way you would use them to intercept a pass. In a real world scenario you could reach your stick out with a poke check deaden the puck and seemly take it with you with ease regardless of motion. In NHL you have to account for directional precision to avoid accidental tripping, you only have bidirectional control of your stick and can’t move it independently closer or farther. Then if you avoid tripping and get the blade of the stick in the passing lane you still have 0 puck control and have to hope it deflects to the spot you are going as opposed to another player or towards your net.

    L1 to block let’s be real this one is probably the most outdated mechanic in the game. You completely kill momentum at unrealistic rates and turn into a statue and hope it hits you with no control of actually adjusting to puck. With still a risk having the stick clip the skate of the offensive player.

    Diving is a death sentence your just bowling ball at the point looking for some pims to knock down(credit that pun please) with all the same issues as blocking with less momentum degradation.

    Stick lift is a slot machine and even more so this year. A stationary receiver taking a one timer that your able to get in the lane of a should not require a stick lift in any situation. At high speed puck and two players arriving all at the same time you have to be in an exact position for that to work properly.

    Bump/hitting you won’t arrive on time to stop a shot your either early or late. And the bump is unpredictable and not something you can consistently use effectively.

    And with all those outside of the bumping hitting method also require an exit animation that completely disrupts the flow of intercepting a pass you have to preform the move make sure the puck is loose relive the input wait for your player to be active for puck pickup again and then continue the play. There’s nothing seemless about any of those mechanics and all have big risks with them.

    I agree last years interception rate was too high but to make them near impossible isn’t a viable solution. You still need to be able to make seemless interceptions in the passing lane on the move with correct timing.
  • TheMajjam wrote: »
    Alright @untouchable_BF1 @EA_Blueberry @EA_Aljo Let me preface by saying I am going to be throwing some stats out there, so please don't be offended by them. Some people are, but I like to show them so others know that I practice what I preach and it can be backed up with stats.

    I'm going to try to address the interceptions and this really odd notion of "passive" vs "active" defense should be the end all, be all way of playing defense. I'm going to approach this as logically as I can.

    My club is a balanced club first and foremost. We see what we like to play as individuals, then edit to make sure we compliment each other as a team. If you were to take our make up, our C is a bigger, agile player that can make room in the O zone, but can push people out of the way in the D zone. He can covery the slot well. Our RW is a middle of the road, offensive geared player. Our LW is our quarterback. He's small, agile, can carry the puck, and can deke very well around the D. He's a Playmaker, so he passes more than he scores. I'm a PMD. I like to get the puck up quick, I like to be quick, and I like a good stick. My D partner is a TWD with size and a good stick. We found out a long time ago that this make up is better than having 3-4 Snipers on a team that just overblow offense, of which we have seen and absolutely crush.

    We're a defensive first team and like to turn good defense into great offense. We like to wait for our opponents to make the mistakes first, then capitalize. Because of this, our 6's EASHL club is #1 on 20 in terms of goals for vs goals against. We scored 2,486 more goals than we gave up in 969 games. We. Know. Defense. I cannot state this enough.

    I'm pushing acknowledging team defense, but I'm going to focus on me and me usual D partner in crime.

    Here's my D-man makeup.

    aDZNEdC.png

    Looking at these stats, by definition, I have resigned myself to be a positional defensive player. A passive player. High defensive awareness, great discipline, and a good stick. I'm able to keep up with streaking forwards on the rush and can shift very well in my own zone to be where I need to be in accordance with the puck. I sacrifice a lot of offense to be a playermaker in terms of getting the puck out of my zone and starting the rush.

    Here's my partner's makeup.

    g1Daw5u.png

    Looking at his stats, by definition, he has resigned himself to being a slower, active, physical defensive player. He is VERY high defensive-mindedly, can hit/push/shove players off the puck, and is a great body in front of the net when he needs to challenge players and the puck. Whether through hits or tie-ups. His stick should absolutely be a hindrance for forwards that love to just hustle right into you in a straight line.

    All in all, we compliment each other and know what roles we have to play on the ice. We take a logical step towards this by not over-compensating our builds, and with the way the forwards drop back, can mount an excellent defensive strategy.

    My gripe with pass interceptions is that they happen too often, and it's more or less helped by the auto-mechanic of forwards, the asinine pass speed and accuracy, as well as the lack of proper stick/body physics. A lot more often than 20, that's for sure. I have literally built my player around being able to anticipate the pass and breaking up plays, because EA built these tools into the game. If there were no classes and all players were created equal, I would absolutely buy what this game is selling right now, but we are given classes to tailor our own experience and to combat what our opponent's classes are. You guys are now saying that not taking passing lanes away and needing to be more aggressive against the puck carrier is the way to play defense. Let me ask you this...

    Why do you want me to play this way when I have been given the tools to play my way, have the stats to play my way, only to be told I need to play a certain way because the mechanics want me to play a certain way? Isn't this same way of thinking what we were trying to get away from in 20? Where the only right way to play was to be an incidental contact pylon?

    I know if I play this aggressive way you guys keep peddling, I will lose battles because my player is not GEARED to play this way. My partner certainly is. Again, he is the active man and I am the passive man. Our C and RW are active, my LW is passive. I'm not asking for me to be a hitting machine, should win every puck battle, and intercept every pass, but expecting the laws of physics to work in a game that pings itself as a sim should be a priority.

    Here's a fact. In the many games I have played in EASHL so far, there have been more pass interceptions by forwards on either team than there are by D-men. Especially in the neutral zone. Panic passes by forwards in the D-zone through oodles of traffic are giving a buff to the one-timer travesty going on right now. Intercepts need a buff. Not everyone needs them, but I expect if I am going to use a perk called Interceptor that tanks my other stats for the sake of being compliant in several others, if I'm in position, facing, and expecting a pass that's on the ice, as well as have the Defensive Awareness to do something about it, I should absolutely be able to either intercept or at least disrupt it. That's not happening right now. It's a step down from 20. As much as you tell me I need the skill to intercept, so should the forwards need to be the same in making those passes. It's become even more of a one-trick pony show for forwards where the meta are one-timers for days. Not well passed one-timers either, but these rudimentary plays that leave you thinking, why am I even playing D? A pylon could do a better job stopping some of this crap. Forcing passes. Relying on the auto-pickups to do the work for you as a forward. All these things compound into frustration. Especially when you know the game can do better.

    Now let me tell you what I DO like as a defensemen. I still think pokes need work, but they are much better than 20. The DSS is better. They still significantly slow down your player, though. I enjoy more loose puck battles, but there needs to be more randomness. If a player's stick clips through another player's body then there should be more than a half-second loss of possession that winds up being an insta-recovery for the player that lost the puck (Again, auto-recovery, auto-reach, and micro-stick battles are the cause of this). Also, the puck shouldn't just die, but continue on the trajectory of that player unless it hits something. The puck magnet is still there and clean pokes still want pucks to magnet back to the players stick.

    That's it. Honestly, there isn't much more I can say on the subject.

    I don’t think there’s much we disagree on, other than the fact that I haven’t experienced a huge lack of being able to intercept pucks that I want. I don’t even have the perks you have, yet I’m constantly intercepting passes when not using LT and being in a glide state. All I do is make sure I’m facing the puck and refrain from making inputs when I feel the pass is coming and it’s working just like 20.

    If there’s something under the hood as far as not intercepting passes with LT going on that has less room for error than 20, that’s the only reason I can believe why passes are going through. I use PMD, play the same exact style, not finding the forced passes to be game-breaking for me. So again, there’s many things I’d like to see changed/tested/experimented with before we just continue the cycle of buffing auto animations. It’s just my belief that we need more manual input deciding games and I’m trying to be as consistent with that belief as possible.
  • CUBS wrote: »
    > @untouchable_BF1 said:
    > (Quote)
    >
    > This is why I think this change is one for the better. If I have to feather LT + LS, face the puck, and time my adjustments so that they don’t happen when the puck is released, that’s a lot of skill and play recognition that goes into that interception. If I don’t think I’ll be able to do that, I need to go to plan B which can be anything from DSS to a dive, block pass, stick lift, shove, or incidental contact. The speed of the play forced me to read that I was in trouble and adapt. Again, that’s a skill gap. Players that just hold LT and backup are now forced to be active.
    >


    In theory that’s exactly how it should work but they’re all mechanics that we’ve been trained not to use because of the penalty risk of them. And the systems designed for them aren’t implemented the way you would use them to intercept a pass. In a real world scenario you could reach your stick out with a poke check deaden the puck and seemly take it with you with ease regardless of motion. In NHL you have to account for directional precision to avoid accidental tripping, you only have bidirectional control of your stick and can’t move it independently closer or farther. Then if you avoid tripping and get the blade of the stick in the passing lane you still have 0 puck control and have to hope it deflects to the spot you are going as opposed to another player or towards your net.

    L1 to block let’s be real this one is probably the most outdated mechanic in the game. You completely kill momentum at unrealistic rates and turn into a statue and hope it hits you with no control of actually adjusting to puck. With still a risk having the stick clip the skate of the offensive player.

    Diving is a death sentence your just bowling ball at the point looking for some pims to knock down(credit that pun please) with all the same issues as blocking with less momentum degradation.

    Stick lift is a slot machine and even more so this year. A stationary receiver taking a one timer that your able to get in the lane of a should not require a stick lift in any situation. At high speed puck and two players arriving all at the same time you have to be in an exact position for that to work properly.

    Bump/hitting you won’t arrive on time to stop a shot your either early or late. And the bump is unpredictable and not something you can consistently use effectively.

    And with all those outside of the bumping hitting method also require an exit animation that completely disrupts the flow of intercepting a pass you have to preform the move make sure the puck is loose relive the input wait for your player to be active for puck pickup again and then continue the play. There’s nothing seemless about any of those mechanics and all have big risks with them.

    I agree last years interception rate was too high but to make them near impossible isn’t a viable solution. You still need to be able to make seemless interceptions in the passing lane on the move with correct timing.

    Good post. I bolded those I agree with the most. EA's answer to the poke spam was to go from 0-100% on the penalties. The problem is that you didn't have to spam the poke to pick up a penalty when you were in good position for the poke. Last game I posted gifs of the stick literally going around the puck at the apex of the poke to seemingly force a trip. I never poked more than 5-6 times a game. If it was EA's wish for people not to use their stick to be an effective defender (In 6's I'm talking about), then they did a great job. Pokes are in a much better place in 21. Took a whole game for it to get there.

    Now with Interceptions, it was first 100%. Players could intercept with their backs turned. EA listened, thankfully. They took it down to 50% where class, position, stats, and line of sight played more of a role. In this game, it's now near 10%.

    For everyone.

    If I'm a PMD with the right Def/Interceptor/Def Stick, I should beat out an Enforcer forcing a pass through the middle with 60 Pass, 94 Fighting, and Goon 100.
  • CUBS wrote: »
    > @untouchable_BF1 said:
    > (Quote)
    >
    > This is why I think this change is one for the better. If I have to feather LT + LS, face the puck, and time my adjustments so that they don’t happen when the puck is released, that’s a lot of skill and play recognition that goes into that interception. If I don’t think I’ll be able to do that, I need to go to plan B which can be anything from DSS to a dive, block pass, stick lift, shove, or incidental contact. The speed of the play forced me to read that I was in trouble and adapt. Again, that’s a skill gap. Players that just hold LT and backup are now forced to be active.
    >


    In theory that’s exactly how it should work but they’re all mechanics that we’ve been trained not to use because of the penalty risk of them. And the systems designed for them aren’t implemented the way you would use them to intercept a pass. In a real world scenario you could reach your stick out with a poke check deaden the puck and seemly take it with you with ease regardless of motion. In NHL you have to account for directional precision to avoid accidental tripping, you only have bidirectional control of your stick and can’t move it independently closer or farther. Then if you avoid tripping and get the blade of the stick in the passing lane you still have 0 puck control and have to hope it deflects to the spot you are going as opposed to another player or towards your net.

    L1 to block let’s be real this one is probably the most outdated mechanic in the game. You completely kill momentum at unrealistic rates and turn into a statue and hope it hits you with no control of actually adjusting to puck. With still a risk having the stick clip the skate of the offensive player.

    Diving is a death sentence your just bowling ball at the point looking for some pims to knock down(credit that pun please) with all the same issues as blocking with less momentum degradation.

    Stick lift is a slot machine and even more so this year. A stationary receiver taking a one timer that your able to get in the lane of a should not require a stick lift in any situation. At high speed puck and two players arriving all at the same time you have to be in an exact position for that to work properly.

    Bump/hitting you won’t arrive on time to stop a shot your either early or late. And the bump is unpredictable and not something you can consistently use effectively.

    And with all those outside of the bumping hitting method also require an exit animation that completely disrupts the flow of intercepting a pass you have to preform the move make sure the puck is loose relive the input wait for your player to be active for puck pickup again and then continue the play. There’s nothing seemless about any of those mechanics and all have big risks with them.

    I agree last years interception rate was too high but to make them near impossible isn’t a viable solution. You still need to be able to make seemless interceptions in the passing lane on the move with correct timing.

    Well again, they’re not impossible with the correct timing. It seems as if they drastically reduced the window of “correct” timing but again, I am picking off passes with a PMD when I glide, face the play, and don’t touch LT when I’m anticipating the pass. I’ve also had a lot of success using the DSS and shoves and dives to bail me out of sticky situations. I’ve found that the team I play with is aggressive in the neutral zone so we breakdown a lot of plays before it can even get messy in the defense zone.
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